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View Full Version : How much support is Fox, Elway really giving Tebow?


The Moops
10-19-2011, 02:44 AM
The interesting twist about the change of quarterbacks is the Denver faithful will no doubt have more patience than the Broncos triumvirate execs of XEF. Most fans want to see Tebow succeed. I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so." There have been a lot of reasons why Brandon Lloyd was traded. But how did trading Denver's only receiving threat help Tebow? Now there will be even more guys in the box instead of defending the pass. Lloyd is going to be replaced with 2 guys who are always injured and guys, like Eric Decker, who aren't consistent (negative 4 yards receiving vs Chargers) and clearly Not a Tebow supporter.

When it comes to starting a new QB, usually it's the fans who aren't patient. But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….

fontaine
10-19-2011, 03:21 AM
http://s3-ak.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web04/2009/8/28/9/is-there-something-bigger-than-omg-because-13479-1251466652-149.jpg

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 04:33 AM
I actually wonder if it is less about them "not liking" Tebow.. and more about them being scared shirtless about THEM not being able to adapt to Tebow.

Most NFL people are not creative... so when you have something new and different they have no clue what to do with it.

I really think this might be the issue.

BlueandOrange32
10-19-2011, 04:35 AM
Who knows? All I know is he keeps on producing TDs when he plays and everyone hates him cause he doesnt look right.

I dont believe the organization does believe in him. I think that is clear. I dont think we will ever see more irrational criticism for a person and a player from teammates, coaches, organization or media.

Itis strange to see.

Agamemnon
10-19-2011, 04:38 AM
The interesting twist about the change of quarterbacks is the Denver faithful will no doubt have more patience than the Broncos triumvirate execs of XEF. Most fans want to see Tebow succeed. I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so." There have been a lot of reasons why Brandon Lloyd was traded. But how did trading Denver's only receiving threat help Tebow? Now there will be even more guys in the box instead of defending the pass. Lloyd is going to be replaced with 2 guys who are always injured and guys, like Eric Decker, who aren't consistent (negative 4 yards receiving vs Chargers) and clearly Not a Tebow supporter.

When it comes to starting a new QB, usually it's the fans who aren't patient. But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….

The problem is that they can't completely redesign the offense in the middle of the season. I'm not sure they would if they could, but they can't so it doesn't really matter. Too bad we don't have people in charge with the foresight to have designed an offense catering to Tebow's talents during the offense like Newton has in Carolina, but oh well...

Agamemnon
10-19-2011, 04:42 AM
Who knows? All I know is he keeps on producing TDs when he plays and everyone hates him cause he doesnt look right.

I dont believe the organization does believe in him. I think that is clear. I dont think we will ever see more irrational criticism for a person and a player from teammates, coaches, organization or media.

Itis strange to see.

Yep. Right now people are focusing on the one negative: his completion percentage. If he fixes that and then starts throwing interceptions more, that will become the talking point. Basically the guy has to play on a level where nothing can really be criticized or something will be, and with a level of intensity that is completely out proportion to what it should be for a young, inexperienced player.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 04:55 AM
I actually wonder if it is less about them "not liking" Tebow.. and more about them being scared shirtless about THEM not being able to adapt to Tebow.

Most NFL people are not creative... so when you have something new and different they have no clue what to do with it.

I really think this might be the issue.

John Fox specifically brought in and used the wildcat/single wing into Carolina's offense a full season before Miami started to make it a trend.

But don't let facts get in the way of the speculation, conjecture circle jerk.

Or am I just projecting?

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 05:02 AM
John Fox specifically brought in and used the wildcat/single wing into Carolina's offense a full season before Miami started to make it a trend.

But don't let facts get in the way of the speculation, conjecture circle jerk.

Or am I just projecting?

But from my understanding that was out of desperation.. and it seems to have been the OC spearheading that rather than Fox... which is why he didn't want to use McD's system when he took over and made McD's system fit his style. He wants to be in control and he has a limited range as a coach, circle jerk.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 05:14 AM
But from my understanding that was out of desperation.. and it seems to have been the OC spearheading that rather than Fox... which is why he didn't want to use McD's system when he took over and made McD's system fit his style. He wants to be in control and he has a limited range as a coach, circle jerk.

No, you're still wrong:

Fox was actually the guy who came up with the idea to run the Wildcat (actually the Tiger first, check the link for more), and now that Henning’s in Miami with David Lee, they’ve expanded the system.

Read more: http://www.heraldonline.com/2009/11/19/2668242/fox-needed-henning-up-to-the-point.html#ixzz1bEGcNR4w

Or is this me just witch hunting?

Anyways I don't expect you to change your opinion, so carry on.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 05:24 AM
http://www.heraldonline.com/247/story/1754573.html


Quote:
“Now that Miami's doing it, the Wildcat's all the big thing. But the creator of it is John Fox,” Panthers running backs coach Jim Skipper said. “All of a sudden, Dan goes to Miami, and they expand on it, but we were probably the first team in the league to run it.

“Dan was the coordinator, but I'd say John deserves the credit. You can push it any way you want to push it, but that's where it originated from, was John.”

But nevermind, the coaches are just so damn scared SHIRTLESS about not being able to adapt to a QB!!

It's as if Tebow isn't just another talented QB that's very mobile and athletic but some kind of enigma wrapped in a mystery that requires the worlds most creative thinkers to unravel.

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 05:25 AM
Dammit,

what a bunch of drama queens this board has become....

If Tebow succeeds, EFX will be happy because it is one less hole they have to plug...

If Tebow fails, then this is a good draft to need a QB...

Most front offices would like to see the current talented QB they know succeed rather than gamble another pick that could be spent elsewhere.

Deuce
10-19-2011, 05:28 AM
I dont think we will ever see more irrational criticism for a person and a player from teammates, coaches, organization or media.

Itis strange to see.

To be fair, I also think there will be irrational, widespread excuses being made by the fanbase if he doesn't play well. (I don't think that's proper english but you get my point!)

fontaine
10-19-2011, 05:30 AM
Here's the list of compiled reasons so far in this thread:

1. John Fox and co aren't willing to support Tebow
2. John Fox and co are too scared they won't adapt to Tebow
3. John Fox and co aren't creative enough to adapt to Tebow
4. The organisation doesn't believe in him (it's clear, apparently).
5. John Fox and co can't redesign the offense for Tebow.

Any more sh*t you want to throw at the wall hoping it sticks?

Blueflame
10-19-2011, 05:31 AM
Yup... some of the more avid Tebow supporters need to move out of "conspiracy-to-undermine-Tebow-suspicions" mode and just relax and watch him play. He's getting his chance to succeed or fail and one would think you guys would be happy about that instead of reaching for new imagined reasons to b*tch and moan.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 05:34 AM
Yup... some of the more avid Tebow supporters need to move out of "conspiracy-to-undermine-Tebow-suspicions" mode and just relax and watch him play. He's getting his chance to succeed or fail and one would think you guys would be happy about that instead of reaching for new imagined reasons to b*tch and moan.

Careful Blue, you're projecting.

Or is it witch hunting?

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 05:34 AM
Here's the list of compiled reasons so far in this thread:

1. John Fox and co aren't willing to support Tebow
2. John Fox and co are too scared they won't adapt to Tebow
3. John Fox and co aren't creative enough to adapt to Tebow
4. The organisation doesn't believe in him (it's clear, apparently).
5. John Fox and co can't redesign the offense for Tebow.

Any more sh*t you want to throw at the wall hoping it sticks?

6. They are trading impact players for peanuts to gain ammo for Luck....

DB Doom
10-19-2011, 05:36 AM
If Tebow succeeds, EFX will be happy because it is one less hole they have to plug...

If Tebow fails, then this is a good draft to need a QB...

Most front offices would like to see the current talented QB they know succeed rather than gamble another pick that could be spent elsewhere.


this.

it's hard for me to imagine that Elway's method for the Broncos is to methodically have them lose..seems too crazy.

Blueflame
10-19-2011, 05:37 AM
Careful Blue, you're projecting.

Or is it witch hunting?

Probably both... LOL

fontaine
10-19-2011, 05:40 AM
Seriously though, WhoTF is Tebow but some talented young prospect?

He's not the Denver Broncos, and the staff don't owe it to the guy to completely redesign the offense - and skull***k the other players in the process.

You want to run an effective ground game? No **** you, Tebow comes first.

You want to run play action passes when the defense gets over aggressive? No **** you, how dare you ask Tebow to play from under center.

You want to target the biggest, most physical set of WRs Denver has EVER had and a physical mismatch against 90% of the CBs in D Thomas/Decker? No, **** you, Tebow doesn't have to distribute the ball and be accurate. Let him run with the ball because he's Tebow.

You want to give Fox/Elway and the current staff two full seasons/drafts to evaluate before calling them stupid, uncreative, stubborn? No **** you, drop everything and worship Tebow now.

Defense? Pass rush? No, *** you . . . . . . . . . TEBOWWWWWW!!!

Blueflame
10-19-2011, 05:43 AM
Seriously though, WhoTF is Tebow but some talented young prospect?

He's not the Denver Broncos, and the staff don't owe it to the guy to completely redesign the offense - and skull**** the other players in the process.

You want to run an effective ground game? No **** you, Tebow comes first.

You want to run play action passes when the defense gets over aggressive? No **** you, how dare you ask Tebow to play from under center.

You want to target the biggest, most physical set of WRs Denver has EVER had and a physical mismatch against 90% of the CBs in D Thomas/Decker? No, **** you, Tebow doesn't have to distribute the ball and be accurate. Let him run with the ball because he's Tebow.

You want to give Fox/Elway and the current staff two full seasons/drafts to evaluate before calling them stupid, uncreative, stubborn? No **** you, drop everything and worship Tebow now.

Defense? Pass rush? No, *** you . . . . . . . . . TEBOWWWWWW!!!

Actually Tebow wasn't exactly perceived as a "QB prospect" coming into the NFL; he was viewed as a "multi-year QB project. Meaning even McDaniels (y'know the noob HC who got pwned by his mentor who wasn't going to make that reach but ran a successful bluff) knew he wasn't going to be ready to start right away.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 05:43 AM
Well that about finishes up my contribution to this thread.

Carry on.

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 05:44 AM
Seriously though, WhoTF is Tebow but some talented young prospect?

He's not the Denver Broncos, and the staff don't owe it to the guy to completely redesign the offense - and skull**** the other players in the process.

You want to run an effective ground game? No **** you, Tebow comes first.

You want to run play action passes when the defense gets over aggressive? No **** you, how dare you ask Tebow to play from under center.

You want to target the biggest, most physical set of WRs Denver has EVER had and a physical mismatch against 90% of the CBs in D Thomas/Decker? No, **** you, Tebow doesn't have to distribute the ball and be accurate. Let him run with the ball because he's Tebow.

You want to give Fox/Elway and the current staff two full seasons/drafts to evaluate before calling them stupid, uncreative, stubborn? No **** you, drop everything and worship Tebow now.

Defense? Pass rush? No, *** you . . . . . . . . . TEBOWWWWWW!!!

I've always been under the impression, they drafted big, physical WRs to aid Tebow....He's an inaccurate thrower so you give him bigger targets...but no, they are not doing anything to help him succeed.

BlueandOrange32
10-19-2011, 06:01 AM
Yep. Right now people are focusing on the one negative: his completion percentage. If he fixes that and then starts throwing interceptions more, that will become the talking point. Basically the guy has to play on a level where nothing can really be criticized or something will be, and with a level of intensity that is completely out proportion to what it should be for a young, inexperienced player.

His critics are like water on a sidewalk.

If he has a good completion % then the media will find something else. He was 6 for 7 against the Cowboys in preseason and BSPN ran the incomplete pass on a loop along with the int that was a PI on a WR that was tackled.

If he struggles against good defenses (like any good QB does) they will say he doesnt do well against good defenses. If he does well against bad defenses, they will say it was only against bad defenses. Of course, they never hold that standard to the QBs they love. Bradford for instance only had good games last year against the 32nd ranked Broncos defende, 31st ranked redskins defense, and 27th ranked Seahawks defense. He ended up being the 27th rated QB and was pretty horrible down the stretch. Yet the media and BSPN sang his never ending praises. He is 0-5 this year and all there are are excuses for him. Oh, but he took 4 whole snaps under center at Oklahoma, so he was obviously ready.

They love to point out Tebow's 1-2 record and to them the Texans game doesnt count at all. Not at all.

He ended up as the highest rated of all rookies last year. Only QB to ever run and pass for a 30 yard TD in his first game. Had the same approimate rating as Newton. Newton was 16 for 31 2 weeks ago, and threw 3 picks last Sunday. All I hear are praises and excuses. They mentioned that one of the INTs was a Hail Mary pass.

They didnt mention 2 of Tebow incompletions against the Chargers was a spike ball to stop the clock and a Hail Mary pass. No, that doesnt count.

Now, this week is a total lose/lose situation. If he does well, it is against crappy Miami. If he doesnt, oh boy. McCoy had a 71 rating against the Dolphins a few weeks ago. He is in his second year, and he was one of those that were suppose to be soooo much better than Tebow. Did BSPN hold that against him or say he didnt accomplish anything cause they beat the lowly Dolphins. Wanna bet that is what they will all talk about if Tebow does well Sunday? Wanna place a bet on that?

It is something that we need to endure as fans. Gators fans have been through this for a while. Ask them if they miss him on the Gators right now.

I can whine and moan till I turn blue and purple. Doesnt matter. He needs to lead the team to shut them all up. That means the players and coaches and Elway when I say that.

It is put up or shut up. There will always be a double standard and a seething hatred from the media. We know which way they lean, and why they hate him for the most part. The others, he just rubs against their paradigm of what a QB is suppose to look like. Pride filled, ego-maniacal critics like Hoge cant stand him for it.

jhns
10-19-2011, 06:04 AM
Well that about finishes up my contribution to this thread.

Carry on.

I love how the Tebow haters get so worked up. The majority of this horrible topic is you right now...

Tebow has full support from the front office. They are starting him. They didn't have to start him.

You can claim giving away talent is hating on Tebow all you want. The fact is, it was just a poor decision. Most here claimed McDaniels qas just trying to win as he gave away all the talent. Why wasn't this an issue then? Orton would be far more justified in using this excuse than Tebow would be. We lost a LOT more talent when Orton was starting...

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 06:08 AM
http://www.heraldonline.com/247/story/1754573.html




But nevermind, the coaches are just so damn scared SHIRTLESS about not being able to adapt to a QB!!

It's as if Tebow isn't just another talented QB that's very mobile and athletic but some kind of enigma wrapped in a mystery that requires the worlds most creative thinkers to unravel.

You are making my case for me.. lol

Thanks!

i4jelway7
10-19-2011, 06:11 AM
Tebow is not the franchise QB that Elway wants or the broncos need... Elway wants Andrew Luck, as well he should & I'm fine w/ doing whatever it takes to get Andrew Luck including tanking the rest of the season starting sunday in miami Just LOSE BABY!!!!!

HAT
10-19-2011, 06:11 AM
6. They are trading impact players for peanuts to gain ammo for Luck....

Hahaha...Yeah, that 6th/5th rounder is going to be just what it takes to seal the deal!

You guys ****ing crack me up. The BBT would like nothing more than for Tebow to be the QBOTF.

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 06:14 AM
Hahaha...Yeah, that 6th/5th rounder is going to be just what it takes to seal the deal!

You guys ****ing crack me up. The BBT would like nothing more than for Tebow to be the QBOTF.

you do realize sarcasm when you read it, right?

HAT
10-19-2011, 06:14 AM
Tebow is not the franchise QB that Elway wants or the broncos need... Elway wants Andrew Luck, as well he should & I'm fine w/ doing whatever it takes to get Andrew Luck including tanking the rest of the season starting sunday in miami

Don't tell anyone but I heard Elway is going to the Miami game to broker a deal where Miami loses out and trades the #1 to Denver for Tebow & the 6th rounder they got from Lloyd.

Elway went to Stanford so he has to take Luck because he goes to Stanford. Plus he's gay for him and wants to "Suck for Luck"

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 06:15 AM
Yup... some of the more avid Tebow supporters need to move out of "conspiracy-to-undermine-Tebow-suspicions" mode and just relax and watch him play. He's getting his chance to succeed or fail and one would think you guys would be happy about that instead of reaching for new imagined reasons to b*tch and moan.

It doesn't really matter Blue.. as a Bronco fan you should be hoping Tebow is put in the optimal position.. otherwise he could be evaluated inaccurately in Denver, be undervalued, be cast off and end up somewhere else and dominate.

Then the Broncos would draft another more conventional prospect who could be a bust. I know you think Elway is a god.. but look at Michael Jordan's track record evaluating basketball talent. He has been terrible. Being a great player doesn't mean Elway knows what he is doing.

HAT
10-19-2011, 06:15 AM
you do realize sarcasm when you read it, right?

Yes. You do realize "Hahaha" when you read it, right?

By "you guys", I meant the OP and such.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 06:16 AM
I love how the Tebow haters get so worked up. The majority of this horrible topic is you right now...

uhm what? This must be one of dumbest posts I've seen here in a while.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3327336&postcount=36

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3326196&postcount=132

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3327434&postcount=85

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3327425&postcount=80

BlueandOrange32
10-19-2011, 06:17 AM
Don't tell anyone but I heard Elway is going to the Miami game to broker a deal where Miami loses out and trades the #1 to Denver for Tebow & the 6th rounder they got from Lloyd.

Elway went to Stanford so he has to take Luck because he goes to Stanford. Plus he's gay for him and wants to "Suck for Luck"

Every single crap team is trying to suck for Luck. You see the inexplicable weird fumble by Garcon on Sunday?

jhns
10-19-2011, 06:17 AM
uhm what? This must be one of dumbest posts I've seen here in a while.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3327336&postcount=36

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3326196&postcount=132

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3327434&postcount=85

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3327425&postcount=80

It is only dumb to you. This is because you don't live in reality.

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 06:18 AM
Yes. You do realize "Hahaha" when you read it, right?

By "you guys", I meant the OP and such.

apparantly I am stupid :~ohyah!:

fontaine
10-19-2011, 06:21 AM
It is only dumb to you. This is because you don't live in reality.

So I'm a Tebow hater because I defend the guy and am willing to give him time to develop?

Wow, no wonder nobody takes you seriously around here.

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 06:22 AM
So I'm a Tebow hater because I defend the guy and am willing to give him time to develop?

Wow, no wonder nobody takes you seriously around here.

most just have him on ignore....it's a better place that way.

broncs2bowl
10-19-2011, 06:24 AM
I honestly think they were just hoping orton would play decent through the first 6 games so they could trade his contract off....and since it was an easy first 6 hopefully win more than we lost than go with Tebow!

jhns
10-19-2011, 06:24 AM
So I'm a Tebow hater because I defend the guy and am willing to give him time to develop?

Wow, no wonder nobody takes you seriously around here.

Yeah right. More like you just always suck off the FO. Go ahead and link to what you were saying before he was named starter. You argued with me a lot about how he shouldn't be starting over the guy he outplayed by a lot. That sure says support to me!

Blueflame
10-19-2011, 06:24 AM
What kind of message does it send though... if you're getting exactly what you've been saying you wanted since training camp opened (Tebow starting) and you're still imagining and even making up out of whole cloth... excuses for being outraged? Has carping become that much of a habit? I don't get it.

jhns
10-19-2011, 06:26 AM
What kind of message does it send though... if you're getting exactly what you've been saying you wanted since training camp opened (Tebow starting) and you're still imagining and even making up out of whole cloth... excuses for being outraged? Has carping become that much of a habit? I don't get it.

There is a large group of fans that are only here for Tebow. If you were here for one player, you would probably get that worried about them failing as well.

Mediator12
10-19-2011, 06:27 AM
The interesting twist about the change of quarterbacks is the Denver faithful will no doubt have more patience than the Broncos triumvirate execs of XEF. Most fans want to see Tebow succeed. I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so." There have been a lot of reasons why Brandon Lloyd was traded. But how did trading Denver's only receiving threat help Tebow? Now there will be even more guys in the box instead of defending the pass. Lloyd is going to be replaced with 2 guys who are always injured and guys, like Eric Decker, who aren't consistent (negative 4 yards receiving vs Chargers) and clearly Not a Tebow supporter.

When it comes to starting a new QB, usually it's the fans who aren't patient. But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….

I find it extremely hard to post here anymore, just because of this type of need to vent and project ones opinions versus being able to look at things objectively. The social media mentality here has just become too pervasive. It's all about me and how I want things to be, and not about the team anymore. It's not about reality and what is, it is about what I want the team to look like right or wrong.

I am a trained psychologist who specialized in change management for years and 90% of the guys posting here exhibit the behaviors we would recommend to replace in the workplace. These are unproductive people who seek problems and conspiracy theories over dealing with the actual problems at hand. Their way is so important, they can not actually do their jobs properly if at all. They have deluded themselves into thinking their way is right no matter what, even when they are undermining everything to get their way.

I love football. I love the Broncos. That will never change. However, I do not even want to participate in the negative realities created around here just to puff people's ego and make them feel better. I certainly do not want to deal with all the people who think their opinion should matter to the broncos.

Yes, you are a fan. However, you are not responsible for how the team plays or makes decisions. The team is responsible. The best leaders do what is right, and are not influenced by opinion polls. You are responsible for supporting your team. You get to choose how you do that. If you want to do it by creating drama and negativity all over the place you are free to do that. I just find it hard deal with on a consistent basis. That negativity spreads all around you even when you think you have compartamentalized it. This place oozes negativity and selfishness more and more each day. I get enough of that without reading post after post of conjecture and no football.

You all want to talk football again? I do. I am just not going to wade into the deep end of the drama anymore. You have a choice as a poster and as a fan from here on out. Stop feeding the rats and start talking about football again. I would love to talk football again. Especially, Broncos football. It is a great entertainment. Just stop feeding the negative threads and posts. They live on because we feed them, just like the other teams trolls who actually used to try here. Funny how they seem to come around less and less as we continue to attack our own.......

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 06:29 AM
I find it extremely hard to post here anymore, just because of this type of need to vent and project ones opinions versus being able to look at things objectively. The social media mentality here has just become too pervasive. It's all about me and how I want things to be, and not about the team anymore. It's not about reality and what is, it is about what I want the team to look like right or wrong.

I am a trained psychologist who specialized in change management for years and 90% of the guys posting here exhibit the behaviors we would recommend to replace in the workplace. These are unproductive people who seek problems and conspiracy theories over dealing with the actual problems at hand. Their way is so important, they can not actually do their jobs properly if at all. They have deluded themselves into thinking their way is right no matter what, even when they are undermining everything to get their way.

I love football. I love the Broncos. That will never change. However, I do not even want to participate in the negative realities created around here just to puff people's ego and make them feel better. I certainly do not want to deal with all the people who think their opinion should matter to the broncos.

Yes, you are a fan. However, you are not responsible for how the team plays or makes decisions. The team is responsible. The best leaders do what is right, and are not influenced by opinion polls. You are responsible for supporting your team. You get to choose how you do that. If you want to do it by creating drama and negativity all over the place you are free to do that. I just find it hard deal with on a consistent basis. That negativity spreads all around you even when you think you have compartamentalized it. This place oozes negativity and selfishness more and more each day. I get enough of that without reading post after post of conjecture and no football.

You all want to talk football again? I do. I am just not going to wade into the deep end of the drama anymore. You have a choice as a poster and as a fan from here on out. Stop feeding the rats and start talking about football again. I would love to talk football again. Especially, Broncos football. It is a great entertainment. Just stop fedding the negative threads and posts. They live on because we feed them, just like the other teams trolls who actually used to try here. Funny how they seem to come around less and less as we continue to attack our own.......

Great post....Thank you

alkemical
10-19-2011, 06:30 AM
I find it extremely hard to post here anymore, just because of this type of need to vent and project ones opinions versus being able to look at things objectively. The social media mentality here has just become too pervasive. It's all about me and how I want things to be, and not about the team anymore. It's not about reality and what is, it is about what I want the team to look like right or wrong.

I am a trained psychologist who specialized in change management for years and 90% of the guys posting here exhibit the behaviors we would recommend to replace in the workplace. These are unproductive people who seek problems and conspiracy theories over dealing with the actual problems at hand. Their way is so important, they can not actually do their jobs properly if at all. They have deluded themselves into thinking their way is right no matter what, even when they are undermining everything to get their way.

I love football. I love the Broncos. That will never change. However, I do not even want to participate in the negative realities created around here just to puff people's ego and make them feel better. I certainly do not want to deal with all the people who think their opinion should matter to the broncos.

Yes, you are a fan. However, you are not responsible for how the team plays or makes decisions. The team is responsible. The best leaders do what is right, and are not influenced by opinion polls. You are responsible for supporting your team. You get to choose how you do that. If you want to do it by creating drama and negativity all over the place you are free to do that. I just find it hard deal with on a consistent basis. That negativity spreads all around you even when you think you have compartamentalized it. This place oozes negativity and selfishness more and more each day. I get enough of that without reading post after post of conjecture and no football.

You all want to talk football again? I do. I am just not going to wade into the deep end of the drama anymore. You have a choice as a poster and as a fan from here on out. Stop feeding the rats and start talking about football again. I would love to talk football again. Especially, Broncos football. It is a great entertainment. Just stop fedding the negative threads and posts. They live on because we feed them, just like the other teams trolls who actually used to try here. Funny how they seem to come around less and less as we continue to attack our own.......



Occupy MileHigh!

:)

Kidding Med - but I totally agree with you. The OM was the place to go for broncos news & chat.

Meh, now I just go seek out tidbits elsewhere. Lots of people need to grow up and get over it.

Blueflame
10-19-2011, 06:30 AM
There is a large group of fans that are only here for Tebow. If you were here for one player, you would probably get that worried about them failing as well.

Still... if they believe he's that good then they should relax and enjoy getting what they wanted. But dammit... getting what you wanted really "should" end the whining. Some need to just wash out the freaking sand.

BlueandOrange32
10-19-2011, 06:32 AM
What kind of message does it send though... if you're getting exactly what you've been saying you wanted since training camp opened (Tebow starting) and you're still imagining and even making up out of whole cloth... excuses for being outraged? Has carping become that much of a habit? I don't get it.

No, but we are expecting the incessant double standard and over critical media that hates him for all of the obvious reasons. I mean hates him too. They arent allowed to truly express it. In vino veritas. Dana Jacobson, drunk off her ass, loudly exclaimed F%#K Jesus in a public roast.

We get it. I do.

Like I said. It is time tp put up or shut up for him. Too bad he is barely given over 3 games, where he has produced 13 TDs to 3 turn overs. I mean some QBs like Manning, and the great great great John Elway took a lot longer than 3 and a half games. In fact some of them took quite a bit longer.

Hell Cutler threw 26 picks in his 4th season. Could you imagine if Tebow did that?

What we do know is Orton was nothing short of a disaster in the first 5 games. A disaster. The only reason the media defends him is......we all know why. That double standard thing.

I am not sure if you see the double standard or not. Odd if you dont.

alkemical
10-19-2011, 06:32 AM
Still... if they believe he's that good then they should relax and enjoy getting what they wanted. But dammit... getting what you wanted really "should" end the whining. Some need to just wash out the freaking sand.

Just more evidence of the spoiled entitlement mentality here in the USA.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-19-2011, 06:40 AM
Yup... some of the more avid Tebow supporters need to move out of "conspiracy-to-undermine-Tebow-suspicions" mode and just relax and watch him play. He's getting his chance to succeed or fail and one would think you guys would be happy about that instead of reaching for new imagined reasons to b*tch and moan.

They're setting the table with excuses in case Tim doesn't perform to their high expectations.

Regardless, they're going to justify poor performances with "well, he's a young player, of course he'll make mistakes/won't win every game/isn't perfect as a passer. That's to be expected."

And if he doesn't do well at all, they can point to "the front office doesn't believe in him/they traded away all his tools/EFX just wanted Luck."

And of course, if he succeeds, it'll be "Tim did it in spite of the front office not believing in him/just wanting Luck/trading away all of his weapons because Tim is a saint and the best thing that ever happened to this or any organization."

I've never really seen anyone before make excuses for someone before they're needed just in case they are.

Blueflame
10-19-2011, 06:41 AM
No, but we are expecting the incessant double standard and over critical media that hates him for all of the obvious reasons. I mean hates him too. They arent allowed to truly express it. In vino veritas. Dana Jacobson, drunk off her ass, loudly exclaimed F%#K Jesus in a public roast.

We get it. I do.

Like I said. It is time tp put up or shut up for him. Too bad he is barely given over 3 games, where he has produced 13 TDs to 3 turn overs. I mean some QBs like Manning, and the great great great John Elway took a lot longer than 3 and a half games. In fact some of them took quite a bit longer.

Hell Cutler threw 26 picks in his 4th season. Could you imagine if Tebow did that?

What we do know is Orton was nothing short of a disaster in the first 5 games. A disaster. The only reason the media defends him is......we all know why. That double standard thing.

I am not sure if you see the double standard or not. Odd if you dont.

He was drafted as a multi-year project (everyone including the guy who drafted him knew he needed a lot of work re: mechanics before he was going to be able to succeed in the NFL). He has never been viewed as a "sure thing" as QBOTF by either McDaniels or Fox.

Hey, I think he'd benefit a great deal from spending more quality time out of the limelight picking John Elway's brain for tips on how to be a successful NFL QB (it's a rare opportunity for a young QB project to have a HOF QB willing to work with him)... but Orton's struggles + pressure from fans = his career goes into make-it-or-break-it phase now.

I would have preferred to see him sit until Elway thought he was ready.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-19-2011, 06:46 AM
No, but we are expecting the incessant double standard and over critical media that hates him for all of the obvious reasons. I mean hates him too. They arent allowed to truly express it. In vino veritas. Dana Jacobson, drunk off her ass, loudly exclaimed F%#K Jesus in a public roast.


Are you ****ing retarded?

Jacobsen got in trouble for saying "**** TOUCHDOWN JESUS." As in, Notre Dame. Because she went to Michigan. Do I need to draw you a flow chart? Do you need to learn what "context" means?

You are ****ing retarded.

Please stop being so ****ing retarded.

barryr
10-19-2011, 06:46 AM
The interesting twist about the change of quarterbacks is the Denver faithful will no doubt have more patience than the Broncos triumvirate execs of XEF. Most fans want to see Tebow succeed. I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so." There have been a lot of reasons why Brandon Lloyd was traded. But how did trading Denver's only receiving threat help Tebow? Now there will be even more guys in the box instead of defending the pass. Lloyd is going to be replaced with 2 guys who are always injured and guys, like Eric Decker, who aren't consistent (negative 4 yards receiving vs Chargers) and clearly Not a Tebow supporter.

When it comes to starting a new QB, usually it's the fans who aren't patient. But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….

If the organization is really more interested in "told you so" than winning games, then there is little hope for success anytime soon for this franchise.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 06:47 AM
most just have him on ignore....it's a better place that way.

and done!!

fontaine
10-19-2011, 06:51 AM
I would love to talk football again. Especially, Broncos football......

Cool, what do you think of Beadles play at LG?

I haven't been impressed by what I've seen so far. He creates too many negative plays and in my opinion is the weakest link along the OL right now.

I haven't seen him consistently use his hands/leverage and quick feet to block out defenders. I don't know his history before he was drafted (just scouting profiles) but are these things he's continiously struggled with before?

Mediator12
10-19-2011, 07:02 AM
Cool, what do you think of Beadles play at LG?

I haven't been impressed by what I've seen so far. He creates too many negative plays and in my opinion is the weakest link along the OL right now.

I haven't seen him consistently use his hands/leverage and quick feet to block out defenders. I don't know his history before he was drafted (just scouting profiles) but are these things he's continiously struggled with before?

Not impressed. He has not gotten stronger at the POA and continually gets walked back into the QB in pass pro. Those were his negatives coming out of UTAH. He was a College LT who projected inside in the pros ONLY if he got nastier and stronger. He has not executed like he has corrected those issues IMHO.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-19-2011, 07:04 AM
Not impressed. He has not gotten stronger at the POA and continually gets walked back into the QB in pass pro. Those were his negatives coming out of UTAH. He was a College LT who projected inside in the pros ONLY if he got nastier and stronger. He has not executed like he has corrected those issues IMHO.

Any guards you have your eyes on coming out of college in the '12 draft?

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 07:05 AM
Not impressed. He has not gotten stronger at the POA and continually gets walked back into the QB in pass pro. Those were his negatives coming out of UTAH. He was a College LT who projected inside in the pros ONLY if he got nastier and stronger. He has not executed like he has corrected those issues IMHO.

Do you think it would be a better option to swing Franklin to LG and find an new RT in the offseason?

fontaine
10-19-2011, 07:10 AM
Not impressed. He has not gotten stronger at the POA and continually gets walked back into the QB in pass pro. Those were his negatives coming out of UTAH. He was a College LT who projected inside in the pros ONLY if he got nastier and stronger. He has not executed like he has corrected those issues IMHO.

That's what I was afraid of. I didn't watch his Utah games so I didn't know first hand if his issues were new or history repeating.

I completely agree that he needs to get a lot stronger and violent in his movements, who knows if that happens.

I've definitely noticed that McGahee is running more towards the right side of the OL where Kuper/Franklin/Clark are doing a good job of sealing off their defenders.

But at what point does it get really predicteable? I mean, we were able to shut down Cincy's run game because we keyed on their LT because they run so much off that.

When do teams start stacking/flowing more towards the right side of our OL?

I'm inclined to say using Tebow to run designed plays off LT and keeping D thomas on that side may take some of that attention away but at some point Beadles has to do a better job on his guy.

And I don't think Hochstein, at his age, is any kind of improvement.

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 07:11 AM
He was drafted as a multi-year project (everyone including the guy who drafted him knew he needed a lot of work re: mechanics before he was going to be able to succeed in the NFL). He has never been viewed as a "sure thing" as QBOTF by either McDaniels or Fox.

Then why did Dungy say he should be a top ten pick. I don't think there has ever been a question of IF Tebow would be successful.. but WHEN. And McD said Tebow would be playing much more quickly than people thoguht he would.


Hey, I think he'd benefit a great deal from spending more quality time out of the limelight picking John Elway's brain for tips on how to be a successful NFL QB (it's a rare opportunity for a young QB project to have a HOF QB willing to work with him)... but Orton's struggles + pressure from fans = his career goes into make-it-or-break-it phase now.

I would have preferred to see him sit until Elway thought he was ready.

Has Elway been willing to work with him? I haven't heard jack about Elway working with Tebow except one practice taking snaps.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 07:13 AM
Do you think it would be a better option to swing Franklin to LG and find an new RT in the offseason?

I really hope not. I hate asking young players to switch positions, especially along the OL.

I'm open to being corrected but when I look at Franklin I see a guy who's got excellent feet movement even when he gets low/good bend.

The only time I've really seen him struggle is against out and out speed rushers but most young tackles do. I think Franklin legitimately has a shot at being a very good RT and I wouldn't move him to a less critical position at guard where you can pick up a decent vet pretty cheapily, when that's almost never the case with tackles.

rbackfactory80
10-19-2011, 07:13 AM
You guys take this stuff way too seriously. Why the hell do people play fantasy football? Besides the fact they want to gamble it also allows them to display their knowledge of who is a good/productive player. It's a freaking game and anyone who gives a psychological breakdown of a fan/fanatic has completely lost the plot. It's an emotional game and people who actually study psychology should know you never try to control how another should act. People try to exercise control over their football team because they usually have no control in their working/social lives.

I will start towing the line when the Broncos start paying my salary. I am a fan first and foremost and if Denver is making moves that are questionable, they will be questioned. My views on Denver are simply that and are no reflection of how I carry my day-to-day life.

Drone on though guys

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-19-2011, 07:13 AM
I haven't heard jack about Elway working with Tebow except one practice taking snaps.

Well if anyone would know, I'd expect it to be your stupid ass.

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 07:16 AM
They're setting the table with excuses in case Tim doesn't perform to their high expectations.



Right.. because it's not possible the problem could be Fox whose Panther team looks a thousand times better offensively without him and who has never shown the ability to develop QBs...

Couldn't be Elway's fault because he has shown so much success in building teams and developing QBs as well.

Just look at their success with a seasoned vet in Orton. Look how much better Orton was with Fox and Elway than with McD.. NOT.

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 07:17 AM
Well if anyone would know, I'd expect it to be your stupid ass.

Great job refuting my comment.

Link?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-19-2011, 07:24 AM
Right.. because it's not possible the problem could be Fox whose Panther team looks a thousand times better offensively without him and who has never shown the ability to develop QBs...

Couldn't be Elway's fault because he has shown so much success in building teams and developing QBs as well.

Just look at their success with a seasoned vet in Orton. Look how much better Orton was with Fox and Elway than with McD.. NOT.

That has nothing to do with the early excuse-making.

But other than completely missing the point, strong take.

Broncojef
10-19-2011, 07:28 AM
We headed into the season with Orton basically traded to the Dolphins, everyone was talking about Tebow as the starter until the trade didn't happen. You'd think the offensive minds would have had a gameplan in place on how to best use Tebow prior to this point. I'm with MacGruder Fox was an established coaching commodity coming to Denver, unfortunately his coaching record shows he is terrible dealing with an offense. We hired the only guy with a worse record than McD in 2010 and I'm sure that streak will continue despite now having the right QB starting.

TonyR
10-19-2011, 07:42 AM
We know which way they lean, and why they hate him for the most part.

Great post BlueandOrange. I do have to ask, though, about the bolded part. I really don't know/understand for sure why they hate him!

bendog
10-19-2011, 07:44 AM
Occupy MileHigh!

:)

Kidding Med - but I totally agree with you. The OM was the place to go for broncos news & chat.

Meh, now I just go seek out tidbits elsewhere. Lots of people need to grow up and get over it.

I come for the comedy, like the tool who started this thread.

And, now.....

EFX hate Tim and want him to fail becuase he's a white Christian who opposes abortion and the homosexual agenda that are destroying our nation!

HorseHead
10-19-2011, 07:48 AM
In all honesty, I have never been more excited about watching a 1-4 team take on a 0-5 team in my life.

This is the fun part. We are about to witness something very cool. The kid will rise to the challenge, or he'll go down swingin'. Even the haters would have to admit, you know he is going to work his a-s off.....

Ultimately, if he completely flames out, well, our questions have been answered.

Rohirrim
10-19-2011, 07:53 AM
I wanted to post the "Leave Britney Alone" gif, but that's as old and lame as this constant Tebow whining.

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 07:53 AM
In all honesty, I have never been more excited about watching a 1-4 team take on a 0-5 team in my life.

This is the fun part. We are about to witness something very cool. The kid will rise to the challenge, or he'll go down swingin'. Even the haters would have to admit, you know he is going to work his a-s off.....

Ultimately, if he completely flames out, well, our questions have been answered.

^

bendog
10-19-2011, 07:57 AM
In all honesty, I have never been more excited about watching a 1-4 team take on a 0-5 team in my life.

This is the fun part. We are about to witness something very cool. The kid will rise to the challenge, or he'll go down swingin'. Even the haters would have to admit, you know he is going to work his a-s off.....

Ultimately, if he completely flames out, well, our questions have been answered.

yeah, I am interested. I tried watching the end of Josh, but in honesty I hated the little mfer so much there was too much negative emotion. And this year .... I think the team may actually be worse than what Saban left in terms of competiveness.

Now there's a reason to watch. I mean worst case scenario is that Tebow can't make the read, runs to one sideline, can't find a reciever, reverses field and runs to the other sideling, can't find a reciever, runs across the line of scrimmage, throws an illegal pass and we also have an ineligible man down field. And it's possible Tebow will play within the offense, and complete 50%. I'll be surprised if they don't put him in shotgun for at least 60% of the plays, and run some gimmick thing like an option play a couple of times.

Kaylore
10-19-2011, 08:03 AM
OP is wrong.

They ran the Tebow package as part of training camp with all the starters (except Orton) and spent a fair amount of a time on it (a full 15 minute segment). For those that don't think that's a lot, it is. There is only so much time and dedicate an entire segment to one package means they are taking this seriously.

The talk that there is no Tebow package is bogus.

The talk that the stuff doesn't have stuff they've developed for his skill set it bogus.

They have worked on and practiced a Tebow package. I was standing 20 feet from them when they did this. So I'm going to repeat it 20 times in this post because no one acknowledges this or is pretending to ignore it for whatever reason.

The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.

The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.


The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.


The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 08:08 AM
Does anyone know if the coaching staff has a Tebow package and if so when they might have started practicing it?

bowtown
10-19-2011, 08:08 AM
It's pretty clear to me that this coaching staff doesn't even have a Tebow package or at least have one that they've been practicing.

jhns
10-19-2011, 08:09 AM
OP is wrong.

They ran the Tebow package as part of training camp with all the starters (except Orton) and spent a fair amount of a time on it (a full 15 minute segment). For those that don't think that's a lot, it is. There is only so much time and dedicate an entire segment to one package means they are taking this seriously.

The talk that there is no Tebow package is bogus.

The talk that the stuff doesn't have stuff they've developed for his skill set it bogus.

They have worked on and practiced a Tebow package. I was standing 20 feet from them when they did this. So I'm going to repeat it 20 times in this post because no one acknowledges this or is pretending to ignore it for whatever reason.

The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.

The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.


The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.


The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.


1) The coach did say that they didn't have a Tebow package, ir maybe it was that they weren't working on it. So that is a pretty good excuse for the fans being confused.

2) The fans are still playing dumb since we have the same coordinator and mostly the same offensive lineup from past season. Tebow had a package last season and even played three full games. Of course we have a Tebow package and probably an entire offense developed for Tebow. I doubt all of the players just forgot what they did last season even if they didn't work much on this, this year.

Rohirrim
10-19-2011, 08:10 AM
Now we're talking about Tebow's package?


This has gone too far.

bendog
10-19-2011, 08:11 AM
it's all LIEZS. They hate Tim and are just setting him to fail here so he'll have to go to another team to be great.

TonyR
10-19-2011, 08:15 AM
But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent.

Don't ever, ever, under any circumstances, base your beliefs on something you hear a coach say to the media. Ever. Never.

cmhargrove
10-19-2011, 08:20 AM
Why does everyone think that we need special packages for Tebow? It just seems like we need a certain number of plays with him in the shotgun (like every other offense in the NFL), but I don't get all the worry here.

Tebow will be successful the same way Big Ben is successful, he will extend plays with his feet, then make something big happen. As long as our receivers can keep running for 6 seconds per play, something big will happen, count on it.

I'm guessing that Tebow isn't concerned about the plays at all. He just wants his chance to play, and when he plays he will do everything humanly possible to punch it in the end zone. Too many Nancies around here worrying about a football player playing football.

Just watch.

vancejohnson82
10-19-2011, 08:21 AM
Don't ever, ever, under any circumstances, base your beliefs on something you hear a coach say to the media. Ever. Never.

Shanahan ruined my ability to trust anyone.....family and friends included

strafen
10-19-2011, 08:24 AM
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.

The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.


The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.


The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.
The coaching staff has a Tebow package they have practiced with since training camp.What are you really trying to tell us?

ScottXray
10-19-2011, 08:52 AM
Yup... some of the more avid Tebow supporters need to move out of "conspiracy-to-undermine-Tebow-suspicions" mode and just relax and watch him play. He's getting his chance to succeed or fail and one would think you guys would be happy about that instead of reaching for new imagined reasons to b*tch and moan.

+1 ....
Tebow is getting his chance, and obviously he must eventually be able to run more conventional plays from the pocket, and under center. However I do think that the coaches must use what he is good at to begin with and build from there. Whether they like it or not they need to "tweak" the offense to run more of the game from the shotgun.

If they continue to try to force TT to run from under Center too much they will sabotage the whole offense...not just Tebow.

I don't think it is a conspiracy as much as the fact that Tebow was backing Orton up, not the other way around. While Orton was starting the offense was designed around his "skill" set, so the backup has to be able to execute the offense in the same manner, or things have no consistancy and errors result.

Now that Tebow is starting, the offense should be designed around HIS skill set, with modifications applied as he gains experience and acquires more pro style pocket skills. If they do that then he will have an honest evaluation and we will see if he can actually play the position effectively as a classic style drop back QB when needed.

Which leads me to wonder who the backup QB is going to be by the end of the year. Orton simply cannot run a Tebow designed Offense, and Quinn is questionable, although he moves better than Tebow.

It is a shame that the first 5 weeks and the exhibition /camp period was wasted running Ortons game and not getting Tebow the snaps and experience that would have supplied. But Cest-la-vie.

We are now going to see some fun football, allthough it might not be really pretty.

Drunk Monkey
10-19-2011, 08:54 AM
The interesting twist about the change of quarterbacks is the Denver faithful will no doubt have more patience than the Broncos triumvirate execs of XEF. Most fans want to see Tebow succeed. I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so." There have been a lot of reasons why Brandon Lloyd was traded. But how did trading Denver's only receiving threat help Tebow? Now there will be even more guys in the box instead of defending the pass. Lloyd is going to be replaced with 2 guys who are always injured and guys, like Eric Decker, who aren't consistent (negative 4 yards receiving vs Chargers) and clearly Not a Tebow supporter.

When it comes to starting a new QB, usually it's the fans who aren't patient. But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….

Not your best post Moops. Comes off as someone trying to stir up controversy with a lot of supposition. I hope you aren't going to put something like this on your site. It is equally as douche as Hoge but on the other side of the argument. Basically weak sauce.

NFLBRONCO
10-19-2011, 09:02 AM
At least we are getting to see Tebow play 11 more games this season to find out. I'm not sure we have the right skill players in place to give him the best chance to succeed.
Let's be alert that we are playing teams that might tank so it looks like we are far superior when we really aren't.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 09:46 AM
Does anyone know if the coaching staff has a Tebow package and if so when they might have started practicing it?

yeah, seriously, didn't we have guys in training camp to watch for this sort of thing?

Ray Finkle
10-19-2011, 09:55 AM
yeah, seriously, didn't we have guys in training camp to watch for this sort of thing?

it's been assumed the Tebow packages weren't practiced in the open sessions...but then again, the FO doesn't want Tebow so why put that in:~ohyah!:

BlueandOrange32
10-19-2011, 09:57 AM
Great post BlueandOrange. I do have to ask, though, about the bolded part. I really don't know/understand for sure why they hate him!

Most of them like Dana Jacobson who hates certain types of people....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLds7Xcs0-w&feature=related

How do I post youtube videos with out the youtube icon?

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 10:08 AM
yeah, seriously, didn't we have guys in training camp to watch for this sort of thing?

Would've been nice if they paid attention and let us know.

Several times if necessary.

Jerks.

jhns
10-19-2011, 10:14 AM
Most of them like Dana Jacobson who hates certain types of people....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLds7Xcs0-w&feature=related

How do I post youtube videos with out the youtube icon?

I'm not sure what you mean by youtube icon, but you can post the actual videos by first clicking on embed, below the video. Then copy/paste what it has in the text box.

bronco militia
10-19-2011, 10:35 AM
who cares, there's nothing we can do about it.

buy some beer, watch the game and try to forget the kyle orton era

bowtown
10-19-2011, 10:37 AM
Is bronco_militia really giving Tim Tebow the support he needs to succeed?

bronco militia
10-19-2011, 10:39 AM
Is bronco_militia really giving Tim Tebow the support he needs to succeed?

I need better support for my beer fund

vancejohnson82
10-19-2011, 10:40 AM
Is bronco_militia really giving Tim Tebow the support he needs to succeed?

I smell a question for the Podcast Hotline

Blart
10-19-2011, 10:41 AM
Seriously though, WhoTF is Tebow but some talented young prospect?

He's not the Denver Broncos, and the staff don't owe it to the guy to completely redesign the offense - and skull**** the other players in the process.

You want to run an effective ground game? No **** you, Tebow comes first.

You want to run play action passes when the defense gets over aggressive? No **** you, how dare you ask Tebow to play from under center.

You want to target the biggest, most physical set of WRs Denver has EVER had and a physical mismatch against 90% of the CBs in D Thomas/Decker? No, **** you, Tebow doesn't have to distribute the ball and be accurate. Let him run with the ball because he's Tebow.

You want to give Fox/Elway and the current staff two full seasons/drafts to evaluate before calling them stupid, uncreative, stubborn? No **** you, drop everything and worship Tebow now.

Defense? Pass rush? No, *** you . . . . . . . . . TEBOWWWWWW!!!


This thread's purpose is for Tebow fans to have someone to blame when Tebow fails.

Remember the Tebow conspiracy theorists, who thought Tebow was being kept down due to a contract issue? Where are they now?

rbackfactory80
10-19-2011, 10:47 AM
This thread's purpose is for Tebow fans to have someone to blame when Tebow fails.

Remember the Tebow conspiracy theorists, who thought Tebow was being kept down due to a contract issue? Where are they now?

A conspiracy theory within a conspiracy theory. Well-done Blart.

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 11:58 AM
This thread's purpose is for Tebow fans to have someone to blame when Tebow fails.

Remember the Tebow conspiracy theorists, who thought Tebow was being kept down due to a contract issue? Where are they now?

Yes, but the theory worked on the premise that Orton didn't suck to such incredible lengths and that Fox could coach.

That is the problem.. that is WHY Tebow should not be blamed if he can't overcome that suckage either.. the point of playing TT was never that he would definitely blow Orton out of the water.. the point was that Orton sucked and the team was throwing away valuable developmental time for Tebow on a loser like Orton. It was also to give Tebow a chance rather than just burying him forever.. but are they really giving him a chance now? Sure doesn't look like it.. trading away receivers.. forcing him to run an offense where he passes even less aggressively than Orton... At the very least it's a losers mentality if not outright incompetence.

Dedhed
10-19-2011, 12:15 PM
The interesting twist about the change of quarterbacks is the Denver faithful will no doubt have more patience than the Broncos triumvirate execs of XEF. Most fans want to see Tebow succeed. I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so." There have been a lot of reasons why Brandon Lloyd was traded. But how did trading Denver's only receiving threat help Tebow? Now there will be even more guys in the box instead of defending the pass. Lloyd is going to be replaced with 2 guys who are always injured and guys, like Eric Decker, who aren't consistent (negative 4 yards receiving vs Chargers) and clearly Not a Tebow supporter.

When it comes to starting a new QB, usually it's the fans who aren't patient. But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….
I disagree with everything said here.

Dedhed
10-19-2011, 12:20 PM
This thread's purpose is for Tebow fans to have someone to blame when Tebow fails.

Remember the Tebow conspiracy theorists, who thought Tebow was being kept down due to a contract issue? Where are they now?

Tell us more about the great game Orton is guaranteed to have. That was fun.

If you did a little math you'd realize that Tebow was given the job shortly after he would be able to qualify for the playing time bonus this year.

So, yeah, keep those great takes coming.

Dedhed
10-19-2011, 12:20 PM
A conspiracy theory within a conspiracy theory. Well-done Blart.

It's rich isn't it?

BlueandOrange32
10-19-2011, 12:36 PM
Is it me, or are those that were dead wrong about Orton giving this team the best chance to win, real mad?

Who are they mad at?

Those that said if Tebow was in there from the start that this team would be at least 3-2 instead of 1-4?

bendog
10-19-2011, 12:53 PM
Now we're talking about Tebow's package?


This has gone too far.

You have gone too far, Sir, and should be permanently Banned/Shunned for speaking of Tim's package. He is not gay. He is the anti-Christ of gay. He is one of the last pillars of traditional man-woman ONLY God endorsed form of marriage. By emulating Tim, thousands of young boys, who otherwise would have fallen to Satan and immoral ANAL lust, will be saved and added to the the procreation pool.

Rolandftw
10-19-2011, 01:15 PM
Yep. Right now people are focusing on the one negative: his completion percentage. If he fixes that and then starts throwing interceptions more, that will become the talking point. Basically the guy has to play on a level where nothing can really be criticized or something will be, and with a level of intensity that is completely out proportion to what it should be for a young, inexperienced player.

It's not really the completion percentage that's the problem. It's normal for QB's to struggle with higher interceptions and lower completion percentage early in their career.

It's Tebow's ability to hit open receivers on 5-15 yard routes that concern me. I wouldn't be as concerned if he was throwing picks, because that's more of a judgment issue, and that's something that is much easier corrected (not saying that it's a guarantee that it would be, but it certainly has happened a lot more).

And I don't think people should dismiss the Texans game for Tebow. It was a good game for him, and overall for the Broncos. But fans shouldn't dismiss the other 2.5 games that he's played for us either. He's averaged less then 170 yards throwing the ball per game in his other games.

Neither really define him. How he plays over the next 11 games, will go a long way to making people's minds up on how they see Tebow.

db56
10-19-2011, 01:38 PM
I guess the upside for him is that he has total control over his destiny for the next 11 games and thats all he can ask for really. If he shows he can make good decisions, and throw the ball with some consistent accuracy, his job is secure for the next decade or so.

I understand the cupboard isnt exactly stocked with weapons and its going to be an uphill climb but it is what it is. personally, I believe in winners and that is what what Tebow has been doing his entire life...

Lets go kid...

Dedhed
10-19-2011, 02:36 PM
Is it me, or are those that were dead wrong about Orton giving this team the best chance to win, real mad?

Who are they mad at?

Those that said if Tebow was in there from the start that this team would be at least 3-2 instead of 1-4?

I don't get it either. I think it's just blind angst at being so wrong. They're now going to turn that angst towards Tebow and hope he fails thinking that will save them some interwebz humiliation.

Dedhed
10-19-2011, 02:49 PM
It's Tebow's ability to hit open receivers on 5-15 yard routes that concern me. I wouldn't be as concerned if he was throwing picks, because that's more of a judgment issue, and that's something that is much easier corrected (not saying that it's a guarantee that it would be, but it certainly has happened a lot more).

I think accuracy and timing are far easier to improve than decision making. Look at a guy Like Cutler who still can't decide a lot of the time where to go with the ball. Or a guy like Orton who is fairly accurate, but just doesn't do good things most of the time.

I think there are far more guys who flame out because they lack instincts for the game, read ability to make decisions in the heat of the moment, than because of mechanics or inaccuracy.

I would much rather see a young player who knows what to do struggle with the mechanics of the position than one who can put the ball into a shoebox every time, but doesn't make good choices.

MacGruder
10-19-2011, 02:49 PM
And I don't think people should dismiss the Texans game for Tebow. It was a good game for him, and overall for the Broncos. But fans shouldn't dismiss the other 2.5 games that he's played for us either. He's averaged less then 170 yards throwing the ball per game in his other games.

Neither really define him. How he plays over the next 11 games, will go a long way to making people's minds up on how they see Tebow.

And yet Tebow kept the Broncos in games against the same opponents more than Orton did. And Tebow has a much bigger target on him than Snoreton does.

Inkana7
10-19-2011, 02:52 PM
I don't get it either. I think it's just blind angst at being so wrong. They're now going to turn that angst towards Tebow and hope he fails thinking that will save them some interwebz humiliation.

Literally no one is doing this.

fontaine
10-19-2011, 02:55 PM
Would've been nice if they paid attention and let us know.

Several times if necessary.

Jerks.

I can't put my finger on it, but wasn't there this guy, (big Chris Kuper fan) who was supposed to update us with this sort of thing?

Where TF is he now?






























Oh I remember now, he said Fox/Elway and co took him aside in training camp and told him that they entire organisation hated Tebow and had him cleaning toilets while they installed the Orton Package instead.

Play2win
10-19-2011, 02:58 PM
who cares, there's nothing we can do about it.

buy some beer, watch the game and try to forget the kyle orton era

Just take the Kyle Orton era as a BAD mid-life crisis and just be glad its over.

Dedhed
10-19-2011, 03:02 PM
Literally no one is doing this.

Yeah...ok.

epicSocialism4tw
10-19-2011, 05:06 PM
The interesting twist about the change of quarterbacks is the Denver faithful will no doubt have more patience than the Broncos triumvirate execs of XEF. Most fans want to see Tebow succeed. I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so." There have been a lot of reasons why Brandon Lloyd was traded. But how did trading Denver's only receiving threat help Tebow? Now there will be even more guys in the box instead of defending the pass. Lloyd is going to be replaced with 2 guys who are always injured and guys, like Eric Decker, who aren't consistent (negative 4 yards receiving vs Chargers) and clearly Not a Tebow supporter.

When it comes to starting a new QB, usually it's the fans who aren't patient. But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….

Moops, I think that Fox is showing support for Tebow by having traded Lloyd. Trading Lloyd signaled that the rebuild is underway. It opens up space for young WR's to show what they can offer, and it allows them to develop repoire with Tebow immediately rather than having to wait for the whole contract drama with Lloyd to run its course.

The Broncos are building around Tebow right now. McCoy will continue to develop the offense around Tebow on a week-by-week basis until they have a pretty good pile of plays that they can use as the backbone of the playbook next season.

epicSocialism4tw
10-19-2011, 05:22 PM
Why does everyone think that we need special packages for Tebow? It just seems like we need a certain number of plays with him in the shotgun (like every other offense in the NFL), but I don't get all the worry here.

Tebow will be successful the same way Big Ben is successful, he will extend plays with his feet, then make something big happen. As long as our receivers can keep running for 6 seconds per play, something big will happen, count on it.

I'm guessing that Tebow isn't concerned about the plays at all. He just wants his chance to play, and when he plays he will do everything humanly possible to punch it in the end zone. Too many Nancies around here worrying about a football player playing football.

Just watch.

I think that you have made the best comparison for Tebow that I have seen. Tebow can be a Roethlisberger who can run the ball...and prevent himself from making sleazy advances on unwilling women.

DENVERDUI55
10-19-2011, 06:22 PM
I find it extremely hard to post here anymore, just because of this type of need to vent and project ones opinions versus being able to look at things objectively. The social media mentality here has just become too pervasive. It's all about me and how I want things to be, and not about the team anymore. It's not about reality and what is, it is about what I want the team to look like right or wrong.

I am a trained psychologist who specialized in change management for years and 90% of the guys posting here exhibit the behaviors we would recommend to replace in the workplace. These are unproductive people who seek problems and conspiracy theories over dealing with the actual problems at hand. Their way is so important, they can not actually do their jobs properly if at all. They have deluded themselves into thinking their way is right no matter what, even when they are undermining everything to get their way.

I love football. I love the Broncos. That will never change. However, I do not even want to participate in the negative realities created around here just to puff people's ego and make them feel better. I certainly do not want to deal with all the people who think their opinion should matter to the broncos.

Yes, you are a fan. However, you are not responsible for how the team plays or makes decisions. The team is responsible. The best leaders do what is right, and are not influenced by opinion polls. You are responsible for supporting your team. You get to choose how you do that. If you want to do it by creating drama and negativity all over the place you are free to do that. I just find it hard deal with on a consistent basis. That negativity spreads all around you even when you think you have compartamentalized it. This place oozes negativity and selfishness more and more each day. I get enough of that without reading post after post of conjecture and no football.

You all want to talk football again? I do. I am just not going to wade into the deep end of the drama anymore. You have a choice as a poster and as a fan from here on out. Stop feeding the rats and start talking about football again. I would love to talk football again. Especially, Broncos football. It is a great entertainment. Just stop feeding the negative threads and posts. They live on because we feed them, just like the other teams trolls who actually used to try here. Funny how they seem to come around less and less as we continue to attack our own.......

MED what do you think of the suck for luck strategy? Do you think Denver is really doing that?

vonqkilla
10-19-2011, 06:54 PM
MED what do you think of the suck for luck strategy? Do you think Denver is really doing that?

The best thing about the change is if TT sucks we can suck for luck while finding out what we got, if he's the stud I project him to be, we got a qb. Either way, WINNING!!!

Unless he's somewhere in between, but I think by week 8 the TT bandwagon nationally is gonna be full and NE, KC, Buff defenses who aint much to fear are going to get jacked up. These later games will showcase his growth from this week and vs Det, leading to him starting in 2012.

Thats a best case scenario probably, but I trust my eyes and they say TT will find a way, and get better over the season and succeed. Even if he sucks, great, on to 2012.

Rolandftw
10-19-2011, 08:34 PM
And yet Tebow kept the Broncos in games against the same opponents more than Orton did. And Tebow has a much bigger target on him than Snoreton does.

1. Why is Orton the Gold Standard that Tebow is compared to? Most of this board thinks that Orton is and will never be a decent starting QB in the league, so I don't get why your statement really means anything, even if it was 100% true.

2. Do you think Tebow really would have kept us in the game the first time against Oakland? I don't, with all of the injuries that we had in the secondary. Tebow played good late against SD both times he played them. But he had a big turnover caused by the defense and a kickoff return for a TD. That helps keep it close, and had nothing to do with Tebow.

We were in the Oakland game after 3 quarters, but we were in the game when Orton played this year too.

colonelbeef
10-19-2011, 08:37 PM
"support' is immaterial.

They have given him the starting job. They are going to put the same players out there, and some variation of the same playbook.

If he can be competitive, maybe even squeak a few games out here and there, so be it. Then they will know that QB is solved, and time to spend more assets on the D and OL.

If not, then they will be in the hunt for the QB they want anyway.

Putting Tebow in solves the question either way. It's up to Tebow to make his career go now.

MacGruder
10-20-2011, 04:55 AM
1. Why is Orton the Gold Standard that Tebow is compared to? Most of this board thinks that Orton is and will never be a decent starting QB in the league, so I don't get why your statement really means anything, even if it was 100% true.

That's BS.. if that was the case Fox and Elway would have never committed to him this season. Many people here thought the playoffs were a possibility this seaosn. They belived this because they blamed McD for the team and Orton;s problems and thought those would disappear without him.

2. Do you think Tebow really would have kept us in the game the first time against Oakland? I don't, with all of the injuries that we had in the secondary. Tebow played good late against SD both times he played them. But he had a big turnover caused by the defense and a kickoff return for a TD. That helps keep it close, and had nothing to do with Tebow.

We were in the Oakland game after 3 quarters, but we were in the game when Orton played this year too.

I disagree. Orton's anemic offense motivates opponents to attack. Weakness draws aggression. Especially in this NFL. If you notice the raiders didn't jump out to a lead on the Broncos until they pulled the reigns back on Tebow and got ultra conservative. That's all Orton knows.

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 05:56 AM
MED what do you think of the suck for luck strategy?

There is absolutely no merit to the suck for luck conspiracy. The only reason to give Tebow the starting job is in the hope that he provides a spark like he did against the Chargers.

If the goal was to lose games, you stick with Orton, who was doing a great job of losing games and demoralizing the fan base.

The suck for Luck conspiracy theory is nothing but backlash from the people who supported Orton and now want a reason to pretend that Orton still gives this team the best chance to win.

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 06:01 AM
There is absolutely no merit to the suck for luck conspiracy. The only reason to give Tebow the starting job is in the hope that he provides a spark like he did against the Chargers.

If the goal was to lose games, you stick with Orton, who was doing a great job of losing games and demoralizing the fan base.

The suck for Luck conspiracy theory is nothing but backlash from the people who supported Orton and now want a reason to pretend that Orton still gives this team the best chance to win.

there is nobody on this board that believes this anymore

jhns
10-20-2011, 06:05 AM
there is nobody on this board that believes this anymore

There never should have been people that thought this.

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 06:07 AM
There never should have been people that thought this.

that was arguable at least for a while...but at 1-4 after what Tebow showed in the Chargers game, there can't even be a serious case made

the "Suck for Luck" campaign and the Orton/Tebow dispute are two entirely separate conversations

jhns
10-20-2011, 06:09 AM
that was arguable at least for a while...but at 1-4 after what Tebow showed in the Chargers game, there can't even be a serious case made

the "Suck for Luck" campaign and the Orton/Tebow dispute are two entirely separate conversations

The same thing happened last season. Fans and coaches just refused to believe their eyes.

They are seperate and suck for Luck is about the dumbest things I have ever heard.

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 06:15 AM
that was arguable at least for a while...but at 1-4 after what Tebow showed in the Chargers game, there can't even be a serious case madeThere can't be a serious case for it, which is why anyone who can't stand Tebow resorts to the Suck for Luck conspiracy. Instead of giving credit to Tebow for winning the job, they say that the reason Tebow has the job is because the Broncos want to be as bad as they can be.

the "Suck for Luck" campaign and the Orton/Tebow dispute are two entirely separate conversationsThe Orton/Tebow dispute is over. People who can't support Tebow, for whatever reason, are now proposing that tebow is only starting because the Broncos want to lose.

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 06:29 AM
The same thing happened last season. Fans and coaches just refused to believe their eyes.

They are seperate and suck for Luck is about the dumbest things I have ever heard.

what the hell does last season have to do with this season....and read your last sentence over again 20 times and re-write it again so I know what you are trying to say

jhns
10-20-2011, 06:34 AM
what the hell does last season have to do with this season....and read your last sentence over again 20 times and re-write it again so I know what you are trying to say

Because last season is when they llayed live games. We came into this preseason with the worse QB named starter. That is retarded. You may think practice means more than live games(even though Orton was named starter before the first practice) but you aren't living in reality.

Learn English. I just read it again and it says exactly what it is supposed to say.

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 06:40 AM
Because last season is when they llayed live games. We came into this preseason with the worse QB named starter. That is retarded. You may think practice means more than live games(even though Orton was named starter before the first practice) but you aren't living in reality.

Learn English. I just read it again and it says exactly what it is supposed to say.

I was saying that the "Suck for Luck" campaign and the Tebow/Orton conversation were two separate entitities

you said, "they are separate and Suck for Luck is about the dumbest things I ever heard"
makes not one iota of sense...just wanted to know what you were trying to say

strafen
10-20-2011, 06:58 AM
there is nobody on this board that believes this anymoreYes, there is:
Rolandftw, TheElusiveKyleOrton, oubronco, assHAT, TGN, Blueflame, vancejohnson82, broncocalijohn

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 07:01 AM
Yes, there is:
Rolandftw, TheElusiveKyleOrton, oubronco, assHAT, TGN, Blueflame, vancejohnson82, broncocalijohn

interesting....I would be interested to see any evidence of this

TonyR
10-20-2011, 07:08 AM
People who can't support Tebow, for whatever reason, are now proposing that tebow is only starting because the Broncos want to lose.

Does anyone really think this? I think even the supposed Tebow "haters", of which there are very few, can see that Tebow gives us a similar (at worst) or better chance to win than Orton. I think the "Suck for Luck" mentality comes more from the fact that the Broncos did very little to address needs via FA in the offseason and then traded away Lloyd. The only argument now is between people who think "Suck for Luck" is in effect (the FO doesn't think Tebow is the answer and therefore aren't pushing for wins now) and those who don't (the FO fully supports the development of Tebow and wants to win now). Unfortunately there's no way to know where the FO stands so all we can do is speculate based on what we see and what they say. But clearly Tebow isn't starting only because the Broncos want to lose. He outperformed Orton against San Diego. At worst the FO thinks we're going to lose no matter who starts, and they may be right about that. We're about to find out.

jhns
10-20-2011, 07:20 AM
I was saying that the "Suck for Luck" campaign and the Tebow/Orton conversation were two separate entitities

you said, "they are separate and Suck for Luck is about the dumbest things I ever heard"
makes not one iota of sense...just wanted to know what you were trying to say

I said that they are seperate. This means that I agree that they are seperate issues. I went onto say that suck for Luck is retarded. This means it is an argument that shouldn't be part of any conversation, not just separate from the Orton debate.

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 07:22 AM
I said that they are seperate. This means that I agree that they are seperate issues. I went onto say that suck for Luck is retarded. This means it is an argument that shouldn't be part of any conversation, not just separate from the Orton debate.

I agree....see, just miscommunication

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-20-2011, 07:38 AM
Yes, there is:
Rolandftw, TheElusiveKyleOrton, oubronco, assHAT, TGN, Blueflame, vancejohnson82, broncocalijohn

So THAT'S why I requested that Tebow be put in for the second half against San Diego.

Another flaming pile of retardation from King Retard himself, strafen.

HAT
10-20-2011, 07:56 AM
So THAT'S why I requested that Tebow be put in for the second half against San Diego.

Another flaming pile of retardation from King Retard himself, strafen.

dragster proving once again that he's hands down the dumbest person on the board.

I've been calling for Orton to be traded since JULY 2010!

I'm almost convinced he can't read, sees a neckbeard picture in my avy and types away.....herpa derp.

bendog
10-20-2011, 08:03 AM
If you don't think Tim's ready for a probowl RIGHT ****ING NOW YOU HATE HIM. GOT IT NOW!!!!

strafen
10-20-2011, 08:28 AM
Haha!!!
I'm loving it ^5:~ohyah!::rofl:Ha!

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 08:50 AM
dragster proving once again that he's hands down the dumbest person on the board.

I've been calling for Orton to be traded since JULY 2010!

I'm almost convinced he can't read, sees a neckbeard picture in my avy and types away.....herpa derp.

he definitely can't read, I think that has been established for months now....he sees pictures and then bangs on his keyboard with his palms and has his mother press the "Enter" button for him...worthless poster, perhaps an even more worthless contributor to society

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 09:39 AM
If you don't think Tim's ready for a probowl RIGHT ****ING NOW YOU HATE HIM. GOT IT NOW!!!!

Pot/Kettle

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 09:46 AM
interesting....I would be interested to see any evidence of this

It's evidenced all over this board. Look at any TEKO or Bendog post and all you get is a derisive attitude towards Tebow and anyone who never wanted to see Orton start a game this year.

They flounder around whining that they're unjustly being called haters, when all they did for the first 4 weeks of the year was sling "Tebow nuthugger" at anyone who dared to propose starting Orton was useless to a rebuilding franchise.

Now that that they've been proven completely wrong, all they have left to do is mock the support Tebow gets and hope he fails so they can pretend they were right.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-20-2011, 09:50 AM
It's evidenced all over this board. Look at any TEKO or Bendog post and all you get is a derisive attitude towards Tebow and anyone who never wanted to see Orton start a game this year.

They flounder around whining that they're unjustly being called haters, when all they did for the first 4 weeks of the year was sling "Tebow nuthugger" at anyone who dared to propose starting Orton was useless to a rebuilding franchise.

Now that that they've been proven completely wrong, all they have left to do is mock the support Tebow gets and hope he fails so they can pretend they were right.

So now, hoping the starting quarterback for my favorite team is successful is "mocking" him.

Got it. Another strong take.

bendog
10-20-2011, 09:56 AM
Actually, I'm not mocking Tebow (though I question his maturity) but I am mocking you ded.

strafen
10-20-2011, 10:01 AM
he definitely can't read, I think that has been established for months now....he sees pictures and then bangs on his keyboard with his palms and has his mother press the "Enter" button for him...worthless poster, perhaps an even more worthless contributor to society

Haha!! Nice!
I love it! :thumbs:^5 :~ohyah!: :rofl:

I've got three of my most loving fans praising me. Let's see....
vancejohnson82, assHAT, The ElusiveKyleOrton, who am I missing?
There's got to be at least two more I could name right now, but I let them do it on their own... :giggle:

epicSocialism4tw
10-20-2011, 01:40 PM
It's evidenced all over this board. Look at any TEKO or Bendog post and all you get is a derisive attitude towards Tebow and anyone who never wanted to see Orton start a game this year.

They flounder around whining that they're unjustly being called haters, when all they did for the first 4 weeks of the year was sling "Tebow nuthugger" at anyone who dared to propose starting Orton was useless to a rebuilding franchise.

Now that that they've been proven completely wrong, all they have left to do is mock the support Tebow gets and hope he fails so they can pretend they were right.

They'll all leave when Tebow is successful, so there's more reason to root for Tebow. ;D

DarkHorse
10-20-2011, 02:59 PM
Actually, I'm not mocking Tebow (though I question his maturity) but I am mocking you ded.

You mean his maturity as a football player right?

Blueflame
10-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Please don't presume to know... or to make assertions as if you're in any way an authority on the subject... of "what I think" in the future, Strafen. That carries very high odds (virtually a guarantee) of inaccuracy.

Rolandftw
10-20-2011, 05:29 PM
There never should have been people that thought this.

Yeah. Unlike jhns, who is right about everything at all times.

Rolandftw
10-20-2011, 06:14 PM
Yes, there is:
Rolandftw, TheElusiveKyleOrton, oubronco, assHAT, TGN, Blueflame, vancejohnson82, broncocalijohn

lol. I've said repeatedly that I fully support Tebow as the starting QB. I've also admitted that I was one of the bigger supporters for Orton. As far as Orton not being able to win with this team, all I can say is that I was wrong, and those that felt otherwise were correct. They were smart, and I was stupid.

I don't see it as that big of a deal. All Bronco fans want the same thing ultimately, and that is to improve as a club to the point that we are regularly a championship caliber club year in and year out. Don't really get why anyone would be excited about being right on their prediction of a losing club. But being it's from many of the same crowd that wanted Orton to fail (which conversely made the Broncos fail), so they could be right it kinda makes sense.

bombay
10-20-2011, 06:17 PM
lol

Drek
10-20-2011, 06:57 PM
Don't really get why anyone would be excited about being right on their prediction of a losing club.
I doubt many, if any, Broncos fans are excited that the Broncos are 1-4. We're just excited to finally start the rebuild towards the "championship caliber" team you mentioned. As long as Lame Duck Kyle was the starter we were refusing to work on fixing the most important position in team sports.

But being it's from many of the same crowd that wanted Orton to fail (which conversely made the Broncos fail), so they could be right it kinda makes sense.
Again, very few if any real Broncos fans wanted Orton to fail. We just knew he would. Because he's a mediocre at best QB with no play making ability. He only looked better than that the last two seasons with McDaniels pulling the strings. No McDaniels = ineffective Orton.

Tebow might suck, but at least he's got potential and we get answers on where this team is headed. If Tebow emerges we have our starting QB. If not then we have another kind of answer and can go about getting a starting QB ASAP. Either way it has us making more progress in 2011 than treading water with a lame duck QB.

Rolandftw
10-20-2011, 07:28 PM
I doubt many, if any, Broncos fans are excited that the Broncos are 1-4. We're just excited to finally start the rebuild towards the "championship caliber" team you mentioned. As long as Lame Duck Kyle was the starter we were refusing to work on fixing the most important position in team sports.

I think a lot of Broncos fans are more excited being 1-4 with Tebow starting, then they would if the Broncos were 3-2 with Orton still the starter.

Again, very few if any real Broncos fans wanted Orton to fail. We just knew he would. Because he's a mediocre at best QB with no play making ability. He only looked better than that the last two seasons with McDaniels pulling the strings. No McDaniels = ineffective Orton.

I thought Orton was ineffective with McDaniels though? At least as far as getting wins goes...

Tebow might suck, but at least he's got potential and we get answers on where this team is headed. If Tebow emerges we have our starting QB. If not then we have another kind of answer and can go about getting a starting QB ASAP. Either way it has us making more progress in 2011 than treading water with a lame duck QB.

I see the potential argument, but we have absolutely no idea where this team is going. There's no guarantee we will make progress in 2011. It'd be nice if we did. What happens if we go 3-8 under Tebow? He wouldn't have done good enough to get anyone too excited (although there are some people that will be excited no matter what happens), nor bad enough to say conclusively that he isn't the answer.

A lot of fans feel that an advantage to starting Tebow this season is we would have an answer on him as a QB. I've always maintained that Tebow's a 3 year project, and as such there's likely no way we're going to know if he is or isn't the answer after this season.

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 07:37 PM
So now, hoping the starting quarterback for my favorite team is successful is "mocking" him.

Got it. Another strong take.

You're a joke.

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 07:38 PM
Actually, I'm not mocking Tebow (though I question his maturity) but I am mocking you ded.

You're failing in that as hard as you failed in your Orton support.

barryr
10-20-2011, 07:39 PM
I just don't see what the problem is. Orton was not playing great and the team was 1-4. Plus with Orton not likely to say the least of being re-signed, seems going with Tebow is a no brainer. Of course I thought that was the case before the season since I did not see this team as making the playoffs nor Orton that long term answer at QB.

bowtown
10-20-2011, 07:56 PM
I just don't see what the problem is. Orton was not playing great and the team was 1-4. Plus with Orton not likely to say the least of being re-signed, seems going with Tebow is a no brainer. Of course I thought that was the case before the season since I did not see this team as making the playoffs nor Orton that long term answer at QB.

Seems what everyone has said at least 20 times is that there is no problem. So let's all stop asking why there's a problem and watch some football.

Except that witch mcgruder. He can burn at the ****ing stake.

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 08:10 PM
I just don't see what the problem is. Orton was not playing great and the team was 1-4. Plus with Orton not likely to say the least of being re-signed, seems going with Tebow is a no brainer. Of course I thought that was the case before the season since I did not see this team as making the playoffs nor Orton that long term answer at QB.

That's the problem. Going with Tebow was a no brainer from the very beginning of this season. Those people who didn't see it, and are now butt sore over being so wrong, are now just in a backlash mode instead of manning up and admitting their mistake.

Crushaholic
10-20-2011, 08:22 PM
Let's wait until we see a complete game by Tebow, before we b***h...:dunk:

Dedhed
10-20-2011, 08:28 PM
Let's wait until we see a complete game by Tebow, before we b***h...:dunk:

There's nothing left to b**** about. If Tebow fails as hard as Orton, we're in a great draft position, and we know for a fact we need a quarterback.

If he's a beast, we win games, and have a guy to build around.

epicSocialism4tw
10-20-2011, 08:54 PM
I think a lot of Broncos fans are more excited being 1-4 with Tebow starting, then they would if the Broncos were 3-2 with Orton still the starter.



I thought Orton was ineffective with McDaniels though? At least as far as getting wins goes...


I see the potential argument, but we have absolutely no idea where this team is going. There's no guarantee we will make progress in 2011. It'd be nice if we did. What happens if we go 3-8 under Tebow? He wouldn't have done good enough to get anyone too excited (although there are some people that will be excited no matter what happens), nor bad enough to say conclusively that he isn't the answer.

A lot of fans feel that an advantage to starting Tebow this season is we would have an answer on him as a QB. I've always maintained that Tebow's a 3 year project, and as such there's likely no way we're going to know if he is or isn't the answer after this season.

Considering that Elway believes that the Broncos are a 3-year project as well, Tebow fits into that time frame.

The idea is that you want to let Tebow get those reps and start building the team into what its going to be 3 years down the line. Odds are pretty good that Tebow will still be the QB in 2014.

epicSocialism4tw
10-20-2011, 08:56 PM
There's nothing left to b**** about. If Tebow fails as hard as Orton, we're in a great draft position, and we know for a fact we need a quarterback.

If he's a beast, we win games, and have a guy to build around.

Yup. Win-win.

epicSocialism4tw
10-20-2011, 09:01 PM
That's the problem. Going with Tebow was a no brainer from the very beginning of this season. Those people who didn't see it, and are now butt sore over being so wrong, are now just in a backlash mode instead of manning up and admitting their mistake.

The whole Orton ordeal is funny in retrospect.

The fans were absolutely 100% correct. John Fox and his crew had to find out what we already knew, and thats that Orton would not take us anywhere. We already knew what Orton was capable of in the context of this team. He's good enough to keep you in some games, but not good enough to win them. Fox and his crew had to find that out for themselves.

Woody Paige was correct...the fans are right sometimes.

Thank goodness Fox is observant enough to have sensed the right time to put Orton on the bench and then to have the cajones to go against convention and sit his veteran QB for his young player despite alot of media pressure against Tebow.

jhns
10-21-2011, 06:32 AM
There's nothing left to b**** about. If Tebow fails as hard as Orton, we're in a great draft position, and we know for a fact we need a quarterback.

If he's a beast, we win games, and have a guy to build around.

/thread

bendog
10-21-2011, 08:04 AM
stupid thread was dead on birth. It was a joke

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2011, 08:38 AM
You're a joke.

Really?

This from the guy actively rooting for his team to fail so they'd switch quarterbacks?

Another world-beater.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2011, 08:40 AM
That's the problem. Going with Tebow was a no brainer from the very beginning of this season. Those people who didn't see it, and are now butt sore over being so wrong, are now just in a backlash mode instead of manning up and admitting their mistake.

By saying they support the team and are looking forward to Tebow starting the rest of the year, they're "in backlash mode"?

Who's really butthurt here, dedhead? I think it's your retarded ass. God forbid anyone have a different opinion than you... you seem to take it so personally.

Tell you what. Why don't you take the rest of the day off from the nothingness that is your life, have a good cry, and come back rested and ready to watch the Tebow-led Broncos play football.

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 08:47 AM
lol people are so mean to each other :)

TonyR
10-21-2011, 09:02 AM
Going with Tebow was a no brainer from the very beginning of this season.

I would have been perfectly fine with Tebow starting the season. It would have been an understandable decision. That being said, it wasn't a "no brainer" as has been discussed ad nauseum around here. Based on numerous reports appeared to have very little command of the the offense and fundamentals in camp/practice. That and the locker room may have been been behind Orton. These things have to be factor in to any rational decision making. That doesn't make the decision right, but it does deflate your "no brainer" position.

AlphaSeirra
10-21-2011, 09:03 AM
I get the sense the Broncos brass wants to show that Tebow stinks so they can say "We told you so."
But just hearing Coach John Fox say that he will only "tweak" the offense for Tebow makes me believe that Fox isn't going to support his young QB 100 percent. If he were, Fox would play to Tebow's strength and that means having him operate more out of the spread. A good coach plays to his QBs strengths. Frankly, it doesn't sound like he is willing to do that. Also, Elway sounded less than effusive in his support of Tebow during his interview with Kara Henderson on NFL Network, and in other interviews. I think deep down, Elway is still hoping to get Luck.

We shall see….

2010 Tebow #1 Rookie PER at 82.1, + 5.3 ypc running with 11 Total TD's, 3 Ints, 0 lost poss. fumbles.

2011 Tebow Preseason #1 Bronco PER 108, 6.7 ypc rushing.

2011 Tebow in 2nd half, 101.7 PER, 6.4 ypc rushing.

Why should anything in the offense be more than just tweaked?
Looks to me like Tim succeeded last season under the previous system.
Looks to me like Tim can already succeed under the current system.

Moving right along..... :yayaya:

They Coach/Staff/Owner would have to 'intentionally' do something to sabatoge Tim, and I just don't see that happening. If it does,
it should be fairly easy for them to trade Tim to the Phins..... :thumbs:

Drek
10-21-2011, 10:16 AM
I think a lot of Broncos fans are more excited being 1-4 with Tebow starting, then they would if the Broncos were 3-2 with Orton still the starter.
I'd disagree. If this team was 3-2 and competitive in the division everyone would be just fine with Orton starting. When we were 6-0 in 2009 even the most ardent McDaniels haters where hopping on the bandwagon. All any Broncos fan wants is a winning team and at least 90% of the people who post here are Broncos fans.

I thought Orton was ineffective with McDaniels though? At least as far as getting wins goes...
When did I ever say that? We didn't win with McDaniels because McDaniels failed to fix several huge issues on this team. But QB play wasn't one of those problems during his time here. Orton wasn't amazing but he was solid and showing improvement. Without McDaniels he went full retard.

I see the potential argument, but we have absolutely no idea where this team is going. There's no guarantee we will make progress in 2011. It'd be nice if we did.
There is no guarantee of progress, but with Orton as a lame duck QB there was a guarantee of no progress. In order to ever actually progress you have to be open to the possibility.

What happens if we go 3-8 under Tebow? He wouldn't have done good enough to get anyone too excited (although there are some people that will be excited no matter what happens), nor bad enough to say conclusively that he isn't the answer.
The record alone won't tell the story on Tebow. Our front office and coaches will need to evaluate his progression over the course of the season. If he's showing real signs of growth then the decision isn't all that hard to stick with him. If not then the to degree to which he is stagnating dictates the degree to which you pursue a replacement. Zero growth or regression and you pursue a QB in the first round. Moderate growth and maybe you look at a QB in the 2nd or 3rd to compete with him. Not really all that hard of a concept.

A lot of fans feel that an advantage to starting Tebow this season is we would have an answer on him as a QB. I've always maintained that Tebow's a 3 year project, and as such there's likely no way we're going to know if he is or isn't the answer after this season.
We won't know the answer to the singular question "Is Tim Tebow an elite NFL QB". Sure. But we'll likely know if he's got the ability to pass the ball in this league, if he can physically handle the stress of this league with his style of play, and if given 1st team reps and live fire in regular season games he can improve enough in the finer techniques of playing QB to have real long term potential.

We don't need to know if Tebow is the answer come January 2012. We just need a ballpark on what the odds are he'll be the answer down the road. That is definitely something we can get a lot of clues towards in the course of 11 games.

Rolandftw
10-21-2011, 01:40 PM
I'd disagree. If this team was 3-2 and competitive in the division everyone would be just fine with Orton starting. When we were 6-0 in 2009 even the most ardent McDaniels haters where hopping on the bandwagon. All any Broncos fan wants is a winning team and at least 90% of the people who post here are Broncos fans.

There's a big difference between being 5-0, and 3-2/2-3. Yeah if the team was undefeated with Orton, the fans would get behind him (until he loses a playoff game, at which point they would hate him again). But a lot of fans would rather see a 6-10 team with Tebow then an 8-8/9-7 team with Orton.

Lots of fans felt even if you win a division title with Orton, you were not going to win a championship with him obviously and would likely get destroyed in the playoffs so it was better to have a worse season and develop someone who could be a championship caliber QB. It's the same rationale as the S4L crowd: they don't believe Tebow can win, so they hope he loses so we'll have a better chance to get someone who can be that franchise QB. The S4T crowd had pretty much the same exact rationale.

When did I ever say that? We didn't win with McDaniels because McDaniels failed to fix several huge issues on this team. But QB play wasn't one of those problems during his time here. Orton wasn't amazing but he was solid and showing improvement. Without McDaniels he went full retard.


A lot of people say it. QBs are judged ultimately on wins and losses. Outside of his first six games here, Orton didn't get many wins. Orton put up good numbers, but failed in the redzone and was basically worthless win the team fell behind in a game. Would it have been different if McDaniels drafted different? Maybe. A great running game might have helped a lot, More picks spent on defense likely would have as well.

The record alone won't tell the story on Tebow. Our front office and coaches will need to evaluate his progression over the course of the season. If he's showing real signs of growth then the decision isn't all that hard to stick with him. If not then the to degree to which he is stagnating dictates the degree to which you pursue a replacement. Zero growth or regression and you pursue a QB in the first round. Moderate growth and maybe you look at a QB in the 2nd or 3rd to compete with him. Not really all that hard of a concept.

QB's are judged by wins and losses. May not be fair but that's how it usually goes down. And new coaching regimes, usually mean new QB's. Not always of course, but the vast majority of time that is what happens.

Again, I've always stated Tebow to be a 3 year project. I think he needs at least two years of starts to have a fair idea if he can make it in this league or not. After this season, at the most he'll have 14.5 games of action behind him.

The only way we're going to know about Tebow is if he either bombs out in a Clausen like level or if the team has rather drastic improvement and they win 6 or more games. Anything between that, we are not going to know without another year or more of Tebow. We don't have the team around Tebow to really know.

Which if fine by me, but people need to quit acting like the next 11 games are going to tell our front office what type of QB Tebow is and can be. If we have 4 wins or less, it's going to be hard for the front office to pass on a QB if they're available. Which delays the Broncos having a competitive team by at least two years probably.

bendog
10-21-2011, 01:51 PM
Which if fine by me, but people need to quit acting like the next 11 games are going to tell our front office what type of QB Tebow is and can be. If we have 4 wins or less, it's going to be hard for the front office to pass on a QB if they're available. Which delays the Broncos having a competitive team by at least two years probably.

It's not really about wins, but Elway made it clear that he thought the D played well enough to have three wins at this pt. So, in a way, it IS about wins. But with Tebow, 11 games is enough. No one should expect him to come out, read the basic coverage at the line, make a five step drop and read what route the wr should run, and read that correctly, and drop the ball into the spot. But, he has to show that week in, week out, he's making progress in doing it. And he's got to show he can take a center snap, and make a handoff w/o screwing up the timing. Elway and Fox have made it clear they like his ability to make plays on his own, but he's got to be able to run the plays when the plays are the correct calls for the defense.

They could easily come out of the 2012 draft with 3 defensive starters and a RB, if they don't have to make a package to get a qb. The goal is to challange for a playoff spot in 2014. If Tebow isn't the guy, it's gonna add a year to the rebuild.

Drek
10-21-2011, 02:25 PM
There's a big difference between being 5-0, and 3-2/2-3. Yeah if the team was undefeated with Orton, the fans would get behind him (until he loses a playoff game, at which point they would hate him again). But a lot of fans would rather see a 6-10 team with Tebow then an 8-8/9-7 team with Orton.
I think you mistake a lot of people knowing that the difference between Orton and Tebow isn't worth 3 extra wins as people not wanting Orton.

You're acting like Orton sucking the first five games of this year proved something, but we saw last year that without McDaniels he wasn't a worthwhile starter. Anyone who actually watched how Orton played knew he wasn't going to succeed here. It wasn't "I hope Orton loses so Tebow can play". It was "I know Orton is going to lose, as sure as the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, so why the **** don't we play Tebow?"

That was the sentiment on this board, stop mistaking it for people rooting against Orton as opposed to acknowledging his lack of ability.

Lots of fans felt even if you win a division title with Orton, you were not going to win a championship with him obviously and would likely get destroyed in the playoffs so it was better to have a worse season and develop someone who could be a championship caliber QB.
Seeings how I was probably the first person on this board to jump on the Orton bandwagon (in 2007, FYI) and one of the first to make the very statement you just referenced (even if Orton wins the division he'll never win a title, so we need another option) I'll expand upon the part you've forgotten to include. Which is that you let Orton keep winning divisions while you develop the SB winner on the bench.

A key part to that though is Orton actually being able to win divisions. Or hell, even the occasional game. But he couldn't.

It's the same rationale as the S4L crowd: they don't believe Tebow can win, so they hope he loses so we'll have a better chance to get someone who can be that franchise QB. The S4T crowd had pretty much the same exact rationale.
Except that the S4T crowd as you label them actually had a history of Orton's to go by. You could see how Orton played in Chicago, how he played here with McDaniels, and how he played here without McDaniels. You could then make an educated assessment of what he might do for you as your QB. That assessment generally wasn't real favorable.

Meanwhile with Tebow there is next to no NFL level history to review him on.

With Orton v. Tebow you're swapping a scratcher ticket from a week ago that you know didn't win anything for this week's Powerball ticket with a $100M jackpot.

With Tebow v. Luck you're swapping this weeks' Powerball ticket for one next week, betting that no one else wins it in between (someone else doing worse and picking #1) in hopes that another week goes by and the jackpot grows to $150M.

The former is opening the door for the chance of success, the later is just pushing off growth for no rational reason.

A lot of people say it. QBs are judged ultimately on wins and losses.
Veteran QBs are judged on wins and losses. No one is calling Newton or Bradford a bust because they've got one win between them this season.

Outside of his first six games here, Orton didn't get many wins. Orton put up good numbers, but failed in the redzone and was basically worthless win the team fell behind in a game. Would it have been different if McDaniels drafted different? Maybe. A great running game might have helped a lot, More picks spent on defense likely would have as well.
The team around Orton often didn't do him any favors, but there are at least a half dozen games over Orton's time here where his own failures in key situations cost us wins. That is the kind of failure you can't have from a veteran QB.

QB's are judged by wins and losses. May not be fair but that's how it usually goes down. And new coaching regimes, usually mean new QB's. Not always of course, but the vast majority of time that is what happens.
Of course, veteran QBs are judged by wins and losses. Young QBs have a grace period to prove something though.

Again, I've always stated Tebow to be a 3 year project. I think he needs at least two years of starts to have a fair idea if he can make it in this league or not. After this season, at the most he'll have 14.5 games of action behind him.
Sure, and if he shows any growth at all this season he probably goes into 2012 as the starter, regardless of who we draft. The only way we take Luck is if Tebow completely bombs, otherwise we're taking a young guy who will compete with him. If Tebow can't beat out a rookie in camp next year then we already have our answer.

fontaine
10-21-2011, 04:11 PM
I don't think for a minute Tebow will regress or fail.

Half of the reason young QBs find it so difficult is the mental adjustment to the speed of the game and getting roughed up by NFL level defenders. Tebow really doesn't strike me as a guy who struggles against adversity/pressure or even NFL level defenses. He's made a lot of defenders look pretty silly at times.

All he has to do is get used to the playbook and what the defense is doing on any given play, just like all young QBs.

In my mind the question isn't whether Tebow succeeds in the NFL, it's whether he's going to develop into an elite QB or just a good one.

I mean he stayed behind in the bye when players got 4 days off in Dove Valley to continue to work hard. It's pretty rare for a talented player to regress/suck when they're also one of hardest and most committed workers in the team.

It's not going to be pretty at times but I think he improves quickly over the season.

I'm far more concerned about our secondary (excluding Champ/Dawkins) who give up two/three big plays a game, even the run defense/pass rush is improved over last year.

Rolandftw
10-21-2011, 09:29 PM
I think you mistake a lot of people knowing that the difference between Orton and Tebow isn't worth 3 extra wins as people not wanting Orton.

You're acting like Orton sucking the first five games of this year proved something, but we saw last year that without McDaniels he wasn't a worthwhile starter. Anyone who actually watched how Orton played knew he wasn't going to succeed here. It wasn't "I hope Orton loses so Tebow can play". It was "I know Orton is going to lose, as sure as the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, so why the **** don't we play Tebow?"

That was the sentiment on this board, stop mistaking it for people rooting against Orton as opposed to acknowledging his lack of ability.

It was too, "I hope Orton sucks, and we lose games early so Tim can play." Some people even said the best case scenario was the team was 1-4 or 0-5 since Tim would get a chance to play. Other Broncos fans that I talked to in real life and on other message boards (don't know how it was here, as I don't think I was a member early in training camp/preseason) actually were hoping he'd get hurt, so they could see Tebow play. It was ****ing batsh*t insane. Some might have even prayed for it to happen. They were hoping it happened. And this isn't everyone, but a large part of our fan base are morons that were chanting for Tebow in the 4th quarter of the opening game of the year. A game that wasn't even out of reach yet. Our fanbase was made out to be a complete joke to all of the national media. And as a fan of this team since I was six, it makes me sick.

As far as Orton's play last year, many scouts felt he played well. Statistically he did, but he didn't win games and didn't produce in the red zone. I don't think he sucked in all 5 of our games. I don't put either the Green Bay loss or Tennessee loss on him. He played bad against Oakland and San Diego though.

I stand by my original view that in the right situation Orton can be a good QB. That situation obviously wasn't here though.

Seeings how I was probably the first person on this board to jump on the Orton bandwagon (in 2007, FYI) and one of the first to make the very statement you just referenced (even if Orton wins the division he'll never win a title, so we need another option) I'll expand upon the part you've forgotten to include. Which is that you let Orton keep winning divisions while you develop the SB winner on the bench.

I honestly didn't know your position on this in 2007. Me ranting about this is not me singling out any poster particularly. I don't know or care what was said 4 years ago. No offense.

Except that the S4T crowd as you label them actually had a history of Orton's to go by. You could see how Orton played in Chicago, how he played here with McDaniels, and how he played here without McDaniels. You could then make an educated assessment of what he might do for you as your QB. That assessment generally wasn't real favorable.

Meanwhile with Tebow there is next to no NFL level history to review him on.


Ok, great. So they made an educated decision that made it okay to root against the Broncos. Awesome. Obviously, Tebow is an unknown. But you can compare him the same way with other running oriented QB's (College), and say you're making an educated guess as to why Tebow will fail. And you could even justify rooting against Denver as getting Andrew Luck will make it worthwhile (11 games for 11 years) being that he's the highest rated QB by scouts since Elway. In the end, it's still a Broncos fan that goes through a full season hoping they lose.

Veteran QBs are judged on wins and losses. No one is calling Newton or Bradford a bust because they've got one win between them this season.


Newton and Bradford were drafted #1. They were drafted by their current regime. Tebow was drafted by a different regime at pick #25. I think its pretty obvious that there is a considerable difference between those two scenarios. Beyond all that, when the pick came in at #1 few were surprised with Newton and Bradford being picked. Some argued Carolina reached at #1, but no one was surprised by it happening. Tebow was a complete surprise at pick #25.

All that aside, new regimes mean new QB's. People can say that whether Tebow wins or not doesn't matter, and I wish that was the case but I think it's highly unlikely that is the case. If Tebow picks up 2 or 3 wins the rest of the way, it's highly likely that Denver pursues a QB in the draft that they will tie their administration to. At the moment, Elway and Fox are not tied to Tebow. That might change in the eyes of Bowlen if they pass on one of the top QB's this draft.

Of course, veteran QBs are judged by wins and losses. Young QBs have a grace period to prove something though.


That's where you and I disagree. I don't think Tebow has a grace period with the Broncos, as the current administration have no ties to him.

Sure, and if he shows any growth at all this season he probably goes into 2012 as the starter, regardless of who we draft. The only way we take Luck is if Tebow completely bombs, otherwise we're taking a young guy who will compete with him. If Tebow can't beat out a rookie in camp next year then we already have our answer.

The only way we'd be in a position to take Luck is likely if Tebow bombs. I don't think we take a young QB high to just compete with Tebow either. If we take a QB in the first two rounds of the draft it's with the intention of being the eventual starter.

If we want someone to compete with Tebow, it's likely to be a free agent not a rookie. Know a lot of people are down on him, but I still think Kellen Moore can be a steal if he falls to the 4th or 5th round.

Maximus
10-21-2011, 09:38 PM
Seriously though, WhoTF is Tebow but some talented young prospect?

He's not the Denver Broncos, and the staff don't owe it to the guy to completely redesign the offense - and skull**** the other players in the process.

You want to run an effective ground game? No **** you, Tebow comes first.

You want to run play action passes when the defense gets over aggressive? No **** you, how dare you ask Tebow to play from under center.

You want to target the biggest, most physical set of WRs Denver has EVER had and a physical mismatch against 90% of the CBs in D Thomas/Decker? No, **** you, Tebow doesn't have to distribute the ball and be accurate. Let him run with the ball because he's Tebow.

You want to give Fox/Elway and the current staff two full seasons/drafts to evaluate before calling them stupid, uncreative, stubborn? No **** you, drop everything and worship Tebow now.

Defense? Pass rush? No, *** you . . . . . . . . . TEBOWWWWWW!!!


Oh boy... here comes the tar and feathers... You're getting too close to the truth... they must silence you now! :D

Maximus
10-21-2011, 09:57 PM
I know you think Elway is a god.. but look at Michael Jordan's track record evaluating basketball talent. He has been terrible.

Ho Humm.... the same Non Sequitur argument over and over! How about Ozzie Newsome, or better yet Jerry West...?

Maximus
10-21-2011, 10:30 PM
He was drafted as a multi-year project (everyone including the guy who drafted him knew he needed a lot of work re: mechanics before he was going to be able to succeed in the NFL). He has never been viewed as a "sure thing" as QBOTF by either McDaniels or Fox.

Hey, I think he'd benefit a great deal from spending more quality time out of the limelight picking John Elway's brain for tips on how to be a successful NFL QB (it's a rare opportunity for a young QB project to have a HOF QB willing to work with him)... but Orton's struggles + pressure from fans = his career goes into make-it-or-break-it phase now.

I would have preferred to see him sit until Elway thought he was ready.

What makes you think Teblow would listen to Elway...? He's taking 6 step circular drops at this stage of his career... Why should he change anything now? If he's come this far and kept horrible mechanics and footwork... It seems to me that he has rejected coaching at every level. He doesn't or cannot read a defense...

I know the knob slobbers will point to Montana saying he shouldn't change anything except his footwork because he will have to think about his release... well if he changes his footwork he will still have to mentally count steps 3 quick, 3 long, 5 quick, 5 long.... or 3 quick 4 long with 2 hitch steps or 1 hitch step... ETC... Keep the head down field on the safety on the drop... Cradle the ball during the drop... Don't look at the REC before you finish your drop when throwing to the left flat... ETC

He will still be thinking and still have that slow ass release... Corners will learn to just look into the backfield and wait for him to cock that arm back to east bum ****... and they will break on the ball before he gets it past the LOS.

Lots of silly logic is used by the knob Slobbers... Montana can evaluate talent but... Jordan and Elway cant.. Eh... whatever... I can't wait for week 8!

fontaine
10-22-2011, 05:31 AM
What makes you think Teblow would listen to Elway...? He's taking 6 step circular drops at this stage of his career... Why should he change anything now? If he's come this far and kept horrible mechanics and footwork... It seems to me that he has rejected coaching at every level. He doesn't or cannot read a defense...

I know the knob slobbers will point to Montana saying he shouldn't change anything except his footwork because he will have to think about his release... well if he changes his footwork he will still have to mentally count steps 3 quick, 3 long, 5 quick, 5 long.... or 3 quick 4 long with 2 hitch steps or 1 hitch step... ETC... Keep the head down field on the safety on the drop... Cradle the ball during the drop... Don't look at the REC before you finish your drop when throwing to the left flat... ETC

He will still be thinking and still have that slow ass release... Corners will learn to just look into the backfield and wait for him to cock that arm back to east bum ****... and they will break on the ball before he gets it past the LOS.

Lots of silly logic is used by the knob Slobbers... Montana can evaluate talent but... Jordan and Elway cant.. Eh... whatever... I can't wait for week 8!

I think you're oversimplifying.

1. Yes Tebow had issues with his throwing motion with a long windup and footwork in his feet being set too far apart.

But even last year late in the season you could see that Tebow was throwing with a smoother throwing motion on short/intermediate passes. He reverts to his long wind up when he really has to fire it in hard or on longer passes where more velocity is required.

2. His footwork/mechanics aren't horrible. They are certainly unusual but in relative to all things a minor flaw. What's a split second extra in your throwing motion when you can keep a play alive 3-4 seconds with your mobility? Most QBs TWEAK their throwing motion in the NFL anyway and Tebow will be no different.

3. He CAN read defenses, just not at a very high level which is more of an experience thing. Against the Chargers on a goal line play, he audibled away from the strong side run because he could see the defense stacked heavy in that direction. He called weak side run and they score a TD.

Most rooks/young QBs all struggle with reading NFL defenses consistently unless you're Vince Young stupid and can't learn at all. Cutler is a great example of this. In his rookie season he was the most NFL ready of his class including Leinhart because he was a 4 year starter in a pro style offense at Vanderbilt, yet HE STILL worked a lot from the shotgun in Shanahan's offense. Mike made it plain and said that it's easier for young QBs to see what the defense is doing from the shotgun, hence Cutler was using it more as well.

4. Corners don't just learn to look in the backfield. Coverages dictate their stance from their back to the sidelines, whether they play man (in which case they can't look in the backfield) or other coverages like zone etc where they can look. But that's where pump fakes, looking off players are good. And if it was really that easy, don't you think SEC level secondaries would have already done that stuff in the years Tebow was at Florida?

5. And finally Tebow was working on this throwing motion/footwork before he was drafted and openly said that if there are weaknesses in his game he would rather sort them out now, instead of waiting until he was drafted and doing it with his new team/coaches. He's about as coacheable a young player can be so I wouldn't be worried about Tebow not listening to Elway/Gase etc.

I'm not going homer and saying Tebow is going to be an elite QB, win a bunch of games this year blah, blah, blah.

I just think Tebow isn't going to succeed or fail in this league because of his throwing motion/footwork but the most common reason why a lot of young QBs wash out in this league and that's not being able to handle the NFL level speed from the physical side like tighter coverages, speed of the pass rush, or mental issues like not being able to handle complex plays/defenses and making quick decisions from presnap to release in 3-4 seconds.

strafen
10-22-2011, 06:22 AM
It's funny how now because of Tebow, regular joes out there have now become expert in QB mechanics that a year ago they couldn't tell from a hole in the ground

AlphaSeirra
10-22-2011, 08:04 AM
Fact: Out of a million fans, the spread of opinions on ANY subject concerning the team will span the entire spectrum.

Therefore: Attempting to stereo-type large groups of fans seems stupid to me.

Just like believing that every fan that was chanting for Tebow, was doing so for the same reasons is stupid.

I for one, never dissed on Orton or Quinn, unless you think that listing their actual game stats for comparison purposes,
is in fact dissing on them.

Fact: Tebow had the best Pass Efficiency Rating of ALL 2010 Rookie QB's, including #1 pick Bradford.
Fact: Tebow had some of the best rookie rushing stats (5.3 ypc) as a Bronco and in the NFL at large (any position).
I.E. D.McFadden at 5.2 ypc was the #4 RB in the NFL for 2010.

Fact: Tebow had the best Bronco 2011 Preseason RER 108, PLUS he rushed for over 6 ypc.

Fact: Going in cold in the 2nd half last week, with NO off-season and NO 1st team practice, Tim still had a 101.7 PER and over 6 ypc.
(ZERO lost poss. fumbles, ZERO Ints)

I'm NOT claiming that Tim is NFL HoF material.
I'm NOR claiming that Tim will ever bring Denver SB wins.
However, those that constantly diss on Tim are WAY farther off base, than the ones that they constantly diss on by calling them Tebonites etc....

Defending Tim with the ACTUAL on the field stats is NOT swinging on Tim's jock, it just the FREAKIN' FACTS! :thumbs:
===================

~ many scouts felt he (KO) played well.

Yeah, and many scouts believed that Ryan Leaf would be All World too.

~ in the right situation Orton can be a good QB.

That's true for almost any QB with even moderate talent.
S.Young with the niners instead of the bucs.
IF Montana had gone to the Saints instead of the niners.

~ Tebow is an unknown. But you can compare him the same way with other running oriented QB's (College)

Nope, sorry, but that's incorrect imoho.
Compare Tim to the 1st Soph to ever win a Heisman Trophy.
Compare him to all of the other 'run-oriented' QB's that also won the Campbell Trophy (Academic Heisman).
Compare him to all the other College QB's that broke the 20/20 season TD Barrier (destroyed it - P32 R23).
Compare him to all of the SEC players in SEC history to rush for over 50 Career TD's (57).
Compare him to all of the other SEC QB's that had a Career Pass Efficiency Rating of 170+.
Do that,,,, and you'll find that there are actually NO comparisons to be made.

* But whatever you do, never-never compare Tebow's SEC stats to ole Lucky's LAC 10 stats!
Tim's are better without even considering the difference in the defenses that each set of stats were accumulated against.
The SEC has 6 of the last 8 BCS-NC's. (03LSU, 06UF, 07LSU, 08UF, 09UA, 10AU)
Check the points scored against those SEC defenses in those Natl. Championship games to see Tebow's competition level.
The LAC 10's cheatin' bushy toejams got one(04) but USCw was stripped of it.
(04 AU finished at 13-0, the only undefeated team, but didn't get to play for the BCS-NC)
Just like UGA finished 13-1 in 02, only one loss (to UF by 6 pts) and they didb't get to play in the BCS-NC game.
The SEC could easily have 8 of the last 9 NC's, IF D-1 had an NCAA Playoff in place.

~ Newton and Bradford were drafted #1. They were drafted by their current regime. Tebow was drafted by a different
regime at pick #25. I think its pretty obvious that there is a considerable difference between those two scenarios.

>> Yet Tebow had a better PER than Bradford did as a rookie, with a LOT less help and/or practice time.
>> And Tebow has just as many NFL wins as Scam Newton does, with less 1st team practice time and fewer starts.
Oh BTW, Newton was at UF for 2 years, but he could never even get close to beating out Tebow for the starting job.

The MAJOR difference that I see between those three QB's is;
Sam & Scam's teams have done EVERYTHING that they could do to get them ready, and have let them continue to start,
regardless of their W/L records, while the Broncos have virtually chit on Tim for going on two years now.

Tim's NFL success so far is due mostly to TIM, not to anything that the Bronco's Coaches or staff has done to help him.
Before anyone starts (yet again), I'm no Tebow lover, I'm just interested in things being CORRECT and FAIR.
Any lack of JUSTICE always annoys me greatly.

~ Elway and Fox are not tied to Tebow.

Nor is Tim's ultimate NFL success tied to Elway, Fox, or the Bronco team in general.
Use-um or Lose-um.... 8')

bowtown
10-22-2011, 08:08 AM
http://meta.filesmelt.com/downloader.php?file=didntreadvader.gif

bowtown
10-22-2011, 08:16 AM
Tim's NFL success for far is due mostly to TIM, and not to anything that the Bronco's Coaches or staff has done to help him.
Before anyone starts (yet again), I'm no Tebow lover, I'm interested in things being FAIR.
Any lack of JUSTICE always annoys me greatly.


Just caught this out of the corner of my eye and pick myself up off the floor. Where else can I see your work in speaking out against the injustices of the world? I mean I can see how a guy making millions of dollars to play a game, not getting a fair shake would really be #1 on anyone's list of great injustices, but what's the rest of your not-a-Tebow-lover list look like?

AlphaSeirra
10-22-2011, 08:23 AM
http://meta.filesmelt.com/downloader.php?file=didntreadvader.gif

Liar, Liar, Bowbutts reader is on fire! :~ohyah!:

And what else I have done, or do now, in NOYFB. :P

Plus UYDH. :thumbs: