View Full Version : Regime Admits Obamacare Won't Work
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-17-2011, 09:43 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576635200446357240.html?m od=googlenews_wsj
When Democrats were pasting it together in 2009 and 2010, the immediate attraction of the program known by the acronym Class was that its finances could be gamed to create the illusion that a new entitlement would reduce the deficit. Ending the complicated Class budget gimmick erases the better part of ObamaCare's purported "savings," but it's also worth focusing on the program's long-run political goals.
For decades Democrats have been trying to put government on the hook for middle-class costs like home health services ($1,800 a month on average) and nursing homes ($70,000 to $80,000 per year). On paper, Class was supposed to be like normal insurance, funding benefits through premiums with no subsidy. But since the budget gimmick and the program's larger structure meant that premiums could never cover benefits, Democrats were trying to force a future Congress to prevent a Class bankruptcy using taxpayer dollars.
http://www.sacbee.com/2011/10/15/3981874/obama-pulls-plug-on-part-of-health.html
The Obama administration's signature health overhaul law, under relentless assault by Republicans, has suffered its first major casualty - a long-term care insurance plan dogged from the beginning by doubts over its financial solvency.
The program became the first casualty in the political and policy wars over the health care law. It had been expected to launch in 2013.
Proponents, including many groups that fought to pass the health care law, have vowed a vigorous effort to rescue the program, insisting that Congress gave the administration broad authority to make changes. Long-term care includes not only nursing homes, but such services as home health aides for disabled people.
Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/10/15/3981874/obama-pulls-plug-on-part-of-health.html#ixzz1b6a4jhi4
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/story/2011-10-13/federal-tanning-tax-shortfall/50754314/1
Tanning tax receipts for that nine-month period totaled $54.4 million, the report found. That was below projections by the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, which had estimated the tax would raise $50 million in the last three months of fiscal year 2010 and $200 million for the full 2011 fiscal year.
Bronx33
10-18-2011, 05:45 PM
crickets
barryr
10-18-2011, 07:19 PM
It was great in theory for liberals, so they can not be bothered with facts that it is really an idiotic plan that has no chance to do what was promised.
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-18-2011, 07:29 PM
It was great in theory for liberals, so they can not be bothered with facts that it is really an idiotic plan that has no chance to do what was promised.
You could say that for just about any plan Dems and Libs have.
You guys are getting reamed by the health "insurance" industry and not even the most skilled colorectal surgeon will be able to help you.
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-18-2011, 08:49 PM
You guys are getting reamed by the health "insurance" industry and not even the most skilled colorectal surgeon will be able to help you.
Reamed of what? Because whatever it is. Canada's best and brightest came here for what the health care industry is reaming us for. Yeah lets be Canada where there Governor come here for our health care. Keep spinning.
epicSocialism4tw
10-18-2011, 09:39 PM
Worst. President. Ever.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-19-2011, 02:47 AM
It's going to be entertaining to watch the right-wing lemmings on this thread vote for a candidate who adopted "Obamacare" in his own state.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-19-2011, 02:50 AM
Worst. President. Ever.
Let's see:
a) President whose policies reduced the American economy to rubble.
b) President who failed to fix the damage done by (a.)
Only a mental midget would select (b) as his answer.
Reamed of what? Because whatever it is. Canada's best and brightest came here for what the health care industry is reaming us for. Yeah lets be Canada where there Governor come here for our health care. Keep spinning.
How many Americans travel elsewhere for their medical care? Hazard a guess.
Also:
US health care cost per capita (PPP $US, 2009): $7,960
Canada health care cost per capita (PPP $US 2009): $4,363
That's a difference of ~$3,600 each. At 300 million Americans, that's a shade over $1 trillion. Where's that $1 trillion in additional annual cost going? Certainly not making us healthier. Certainly not helping more of our babies survive. Certainly not making sure all of us are covered. Certainly not making sure no-one goes bankrupt from medical bills.
So, Hobo, where's that $1,000,000,000,000 going?
Worst. President. Ever.
"Ever" meaning "Since 20 Jan 2009".
That ol' date-specific amnesia of the hard-right strikes again. In their world, the calendar went from 9/12/2001 immediately to 1/20/2009. The intervening period has simply vanished from existence in their minds.
TonyR
10-19-2011, 10:17 AM
Another (reader) makes a really substantive point:
I think one of the reasons Romney's rivals have had trouble attacking him on the similarities between Romneycare and Obamacare is that they risk calling attention to Obamacare's *conservative* nature.
For the past two years, Republicans have been depicting Obamacare as a government takeover of the health care system, with death panels to boot. Probably many conservative voters have no idea that it contains no public insurance programs, because right-wing media has been fostering the idea that it does. So when Romney talks about how his plan used only private insurance companies, his rivals can't say "But so does Obamacare!" because that would be letting the cat out of the bag. They try to contradict his claim that it's market-based - as in Santorum's description of the plan as a "top-down government-run program" - but they know they can't get too specific, because it would expose their lie that either program is government-run.
They'd have to talk about the exchanges, which are clearly not socialized medicine, and when they get to the part about stopping insurance companies from excluding people with preexisting conditions, they'd be put in the awkward position of either straying from GOP orthodoxy or adopting a highly unpopular view (a dilemma that briefly tripped up even Tea Party star Marco Rubio last year). The only concrete major component truly shared by both plans that's easy for Romney's rivals to attack openly is the individual mandate, but they don't want to limit their attack to it. So they're in a perilous position, and skewering Romney on this issue is not as easy as it would first seem.
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/10/the-nevada-debate-reader-reax.html
alkemical
10-19-2011, 11:09 AM
When it comes to "Nationalized Healthcare/Insurance", and the topic of "Death Panels":
Insurance companies have been doing this for years, is this something "new", or ignored?
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-19-2011, 09:44 PM
How many Americans travel elsewhere for their medical care? Hazard a guess.
Also:
US health care cost per capita (PPP $US, 2009): $7,960
Canada health care cost per capita (PPP $US 2009): $4,363
That's a difference of ~$3,600 each. At 300 million Americans, that's a shade over $1 trillion. Where's that $1 trillion in additional annual cost going? Certainly not making us healthier. Certainly not helping more of our babies survive. Certainly not making sure all of us are covered. Certainly not making sure no-one goes bankrupt from medical bills.
So, Hobo, where's that $1,000,000,000,000 going?
That still doesn't answer the question, why did the Governor of Nova Scotia come here for his health care.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-19-2011, 10:27 PM
That still doesn't answer the question, why did the Governor of Nova Scotia come here for his health care.
Setting up your next straw man?
No one denies that it's possible to get top-notch health care in the U.S. (if you can afford it.)
The question is whether health care should be tied to the brand of casino capitalism Fox News sheep like you defend.
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-19-2011, 10:30 PM
Setting up your next straw man?
No one denies that it's possible to get top-notch health care in the U.S. (if you can afford it.)
The question is whether health care should be tied to the brand of casino capitalism Fox News sheep like you defend.
?
I see no straw men here. But what a great non-answer.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-19-2011, 10:37 PM
?
I see no straw men here. But what a great non-answer.
You mean your question about the Governor of Nova Scotia wasn't an effort to bolster the argument that the U.S. health care system is just peachy?
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-19-2011, 10:39 PM
You mean your question about the Governor of Nova Scotia wasn't an effort to bolster the argument that the U.S. health care system is just peachy?
That's your reading of it. You not answering it is another.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-19-2011, 10:43 PM
That's your reading of it.
Then what did you mean by it?
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-20-2011, 05:39 AM
Then what did you mean by it?
Its the 2011. Got google. Look it up.
alkemical
10-20-2011, 05:43 AM
That still doesn't answer the question, why did the Governor of Nova Scotia come here for his health care.
Why do Americans have to go there for prescriptions?
TonyR
10-20-2011, 01:01 PM
My bet: in hindsight, either side will be able to claim they were right. If health reform is fully implemented, health care spending will still rise more quickly than inflation, the economy, or wages. That won’t necessarily be due to the law–it was expected to rise at least that rapidly anyway–but that won’t stop people from claiming it is. And, if health reform is repealed, health care spending will just as surely rise at a rate faster than inflation, the economy, or wages. We won’t know for sure whether it would have really risen more slowly with reform, but that won’t stop people from claiming that it would have.
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/james-capprettas-roadmap-to-repeal/
pricejj
10-20-2011, 03:08 PM
How many Americans travel elsewhere for their medical care? Hazard a guess.
Also:
US health care cost per capita (PPP $US, 2009): $7,960
Canada health care cost per capita (PPP $US 2009): $4,363
That's a difference of ~$3,600 each. At 300 million Americans, that's a shade over $1 trillion. Where's that $1 trillion in additional annual cost going? Certainly not making us healthier. Certainly not helping more of our babies survive. Certainly not making sure all of us are covered. Certainly not making sure no-one goes bankrupt from medical bills.
So, Hobo, where's that $1,000,000,000,000 going?
Government involvement (i.e. Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare) in private industries (healthcare) spirals the costs out of control for everyone.
Here's my question for you...Why did Democrats vote down drug reimportation on 12/15/2009?
That certainly would have brought prescription drug costs down to Canada levels (we pay for the R&D costs in the US), and would definitely have reduced overall healthcare costs.
pricejj
10-20-2011, 03:12 PM
Why do Americans have to go there for prescriptions?
Because Democrats voted down a bill that would have made it possible to reimport prescription drugs (*see post above).
Rohirrim
10-20-2011, 03:12 PM
Government involvement (i.e. Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare) in private industries (healthcare) spirals the costs out of control for everyone.
Heres my question for you...Why did Democrats vote down drug reimportation on 12/15/2009?
Bull****. Bull****. Bull****. The reason health care costs are spiraling out of control is because we have slapped a multi-billion dollar, for profit health insurance industry between us and our doctors. What do think is going to happen? BTW, the biggest profit makers in the last quarterly reports were the big health insurance companies and big pharma. Doh!
pricejj
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
My bet: in hindsight, either side will be able to claim they were right. If health reform is fully implemented, health care spending will still rise more quickly than inflation, the economy, or wages. That won’t necessarily be due to the law–it was expected to rise at least that rapidly anyway–but that won’t stop people from claiming it is. And, if health reform is repealed, health care spending will just as surely rise at a rate faster than inflation, the economy, or wages. We won’t know for sure whether it would have really risen more slowly with reform, but that won’t stop people from claiming that it would have.
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/james-capprettas-roadmap-to-repeal/
Healthcare costs are rising faster than inflation in single payer countries...
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-20-2011, 03:21 PM
Bull****. Bull****. Bull****. The reason health care costs are spiraling out of control is because we have slapped a multi-billion dollar, for profit health insurance industry between us and our doctors. What do think is going to happen? BTW, the biggest profit makers in the last quarterly reports were the big health insurance companies and big pharma. Doh!
Prove it.
Before you start spouting about the billions they have made. Look at their profit magrins. They have the slimist profit margins of any industry.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-20-2011, 06:52 PM
Bull****. Bull****. Bull****. The reason health care costs are spiraling out of control is because we have slapped a multi-billion dollar, for profit health insurance industry between us and our doctors. What do think is going to happen? BTW, the biggest profit makers in the last quarterly reports were the big health insurance companies and big pharma. Doh!
Yep.
You'd have to be living on another planet not to realize this.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-20-2011, 06:53 PM
They have the slimist(sic) profit margins of any industry.
???
Wow.
You are smoking some serious dirt weed. :crazy:
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-20-2011, 10:37 PM
???
Wow.
You are smoking some serious dirt weed. :crazy:
http://econ4u.org/images/netprofitmargin.png
Here, I did your Efffing research for you. You lazy Lib.
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-20-2011, 10:38 PM
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66423.html
The news was a slap in the face to CLASS advocates, who knew a report was imminent but did not suspect it would be a death certificate.
“I don’t know what happened,” said Rep. Frank Pallone (D-N.J.), a champion of the program. “I didn’t find out until a half an hour before it came out.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66423.html#ixzz1bOMQEmKn
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-21-2011, 04:31 AM
http://econ4u.org/images/netprofitmargin.png
Here, I did your Efffing research for you. You lazy Lib.
LOL!
Your own graph disproves your claim. :rofl:
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-21-2011, 04:47 AM
They have the slimist(sic) profit margins of any industry.
Really?
Fortune 500 - 53 Top Performers
Pharmaceuticals - #3
Medical Products and Equipment - #4
Insurance (Health) - #21
Merchandisers (Health Care) - #29
Pharmacy and Other Services: - #30
Health Care (Medical Facilities) - #34
Health Care (Insurance and Managed Care) - #35
Wholesalers (Health Care) - #39
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/performers/industries/profits/
Rohirrim
10-21-2011, 09:06 AM
Prove it.
Before you start spouting about the billions they have made. Look at their profit magrins. They have the slimist profit margins of any industry.
And what is their volume?
Government involvement (i.e. Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare) in private industries (healthcare) spirals the costs out of control for everyone.
It doesn't:
That still doesn't answer the question, why did the Governor of Nova Scotia come here for his health care.
Like LABF said, if you can afford it, health care in the US is fantastic.
But the affordability issue is the kicker, and one you skip right over.
How many Americans go elsewhere for their health care precisely because it is so expensive here? Hundreds of thousands.
alkemical
10-21-2011, 10:25 AM
Because Democrats voted down a bill that would have made it possible to reimport prescription drugs (*see post above).
Is this the legislation that was kept enacted?
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title4/civ00113.htm
113.
The Prescription Drug Marketing Act
The Prescription Drug Marketing Act ("PDMA") was enacted in 1988 to address certain prescription drug marketing practices that have contributed to the diversion of large quantities of such drugs into a secondary grey market. These marketing practices -- including the distribution of free samples, the use of coupons redeemable for drugs at no cost or low cost, and the sale of deeply discounted drugs to hospitals and health care entities -- have helped fuel a multi-million dollar drug diversion market that provides a portal through which mislabeled, subpotent, adulterated, expired, and counterfeit drugs are able to enter the nation's drug distribution system.
Or are/were you talking about the Medicare/aide RX bill that was written by Pharmaceutical companies? (and Obama removing liability from drug makers?)
gunns
10-21-2011, 10:33 AM
You can sit there and buy the insurance companies (the ones who would truly be hurt by Obamacare) propaganda, but something better be done soon because you're going to be paying out your ass for any type of healthcare in the near future when the bulk of baby boomers reach retirement and those without insurance cause the prices to skyrocket and you have to pay for it when you get healthcare. I'm stocking up on popcorn so I can sit and watch you guys go truly ballistic.
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-21-2011, 10:35 AM
Like LABF said, if you can afford it, health care in the US is fantastic.
But the affordability issue is the kicker, and one you skip right over.
Soooo we have good health care.
GUESS WHAT! IT COST MONEY TO HAVE THE GOOD STUFF! THAT MUST HAVE SKIPPED YOU!
Rohirrim
10-21-2011, 10:40 AM
You can sit there and buy the insurance companies (the ones who would truly be hurt by Obamacare) propaganda, but something better be done soon because you're going to be paying out your ass for any type of healthcare in the near future when the bulk of baby boomers reach retirement and those without insurance cause the prices to skyrocket and you have to pay for it when you get healthcare. I'm stocking up on popcorn so I can sit and watch you guys go truly ballistic.
True. In this economy, more and more people lose their health care every day. The insurance companies have to spread that cost across a shrinking customer base. It's an unsustainable system.
Someday, some brilliant economist will have a flash of inspiration and say, "Wow! We can't apply the economic laws of widget manufacture and marketing to human healthcare!" Imagine the surprise?
Soooo we have good health care.
If and only if one can afford it.
GUESS WHAT! IT COST MONEY TO HAVE THE GOOD STUFF! THAT MUST HAVE SKIPPED YOU!
What good is health care that only some, and relatively wealthy, can afford?
We have tens of millions in this country without any health insurance at all. How much do you think it really costs when someone can't go to a doctor for a cold and it turns into pneumonia that they end up at a public hospital to be treated?
Your habit of screaming in all caps and giant fonts just makes you come off as a big baby.
gunns
10-21-2011, 11:05 AM
True. In this economy, more and more people lose their health care every day. The insurance companies have to spread that cost across a shrinking customer base. It's an unsustainable system.
Someday, some brilliant economist will have a flash of inspiration and say, "Wow! We can't apply the economic laws of widget manufacture and marketing to human healthcare!" Imagine the surprise?
Plus the cost of hospital and Dr. care. Combine that with insurance companies shrinking base and you've got real trouble. My daughter has had excellent insurance for 7 years. She had an outpatient procedure that she needed, one she had 5 years ago. Medically necessary. 5 years ago she had to pay $175 out of pocket. She just cancelled the procedure. The insurance company now only pays 50%. That means she would have to pay $5000 to the hospital, $4000 to the doctor. Yep guys, we can't afford Obamacare.
alkemical
10-21-2011, 11:06 AM
So what happens when you get cancer, and then you try to get insurance, but aren't covered due to a per-existing condition under the current marketplace?
Rohirrim
10-21-2011, 11:37 AM
Meanwhile, back in the real world:
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/21/8428252-wal-mart-rolls-back-health-care-benefits
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-21-2011, 11:39 AM
Your habit of screaming in all caps and giant fonts just makes you come off as a big baby.
Or a really emotionally stunted and/or unstable adult.
alkemical
10-21-2011, 12:21 PM
Meanwhile, back in the real world:
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/21/8428252-wal-mart-rolls-back-health-care-benefits
The High Cost of Low prices! (http://www.walmartmovie.com/)
pricejj
10-21-2011, 02:20 PM
It doesn't:
Your graph proves my point... thanks.
pricejj
10-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Bull****. Bull****. Bull****. The reason health care costs are spiraling out of control is because we have slapped a multi-billion dollar, for profit health insurance industry between us and our doctors. What do think is going to happen? BTW, the biggest profit makers in the last quarterly reports were the big health insurance companies and big pharma. Doh!
Of course you will have to pay premium (and increasing) prices for health insurance when government involvement in the health care industry spirals costs out of control. Why buy the health insurance if it is too expensive?
All individual medical costs should be tax deductible, with affordable private HDHP's...
Figure out a way to properly reform Medicare, eliminate Medicaid fraud, end the wars to limit Tricare recipients...
Problem solved.
Rohirrim
10-21-2011, 02:38 PM
Of course you will have to pay premium (and increasing) prices for health insurance when government involvement in the health care industry spirals costs out of control. Why buy the health insurance if it is too expensive?
All individual medical costs should be tax deductible, with affordable private HDHP's...
Figure out a way to properly reform Medicare, eliminate Medicaid fraud, end the wars to limit Tricare recipients...
Problem solved.
Through what mechanism does government determine health care prices?
pricejj
10-21-2011, 02:49 PM
Is this the legislation that was kept enacted?
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title4/civ00113.htm
113.
The Prescription Drug Marketing Act
The Prescription Drug Marketing Act ("PDMA") was enacted in 1988 to address certain prescription drug marketing practices that have contributed to the diversion of large quantities of such drugs into a secondary grey market. These marketing practices -- including the distribution of free samples, the use of coupons redeemable for drugs at no cost or low cost, and the sale of deeply discounted drugs to hospitals and health care entities -- have helped fuel a multi-million dollar drug diversion market that provides a portal through which mislabeled, subpotent, adulterated, expired, and counterfeit drugs are able to enter the nation's drug distribution system.
Or are/were you talking about the Medicare/aide RX bill that was written by Pharmaceutical companies? (and Obama removing liability from drug makers?)
The latest attempt to lower the cost of prescription drugs (H.R. 147 - Prescription Drug Affordability Act- Introduced by Ron Paul on January 5, 2011) is still pending I believe. This piece of legislation, follows drug reimportation legislation that was stripped from Obamacare before passage.
Democrats have been voting down drug reimportation for years.
As an aside, how many of the pharmaceutical drugs that the world uses were developed outside of the U.S., and more specifically Canada?...
pricejj
10-21-2011, 03:10 PM
Through what mechanism does government determine health care prices?
Supply and demand. If you are a Medicaid/Tricare patient and you want to buy a bottle of Lipitor it costs $3 for Medicaid, $5 for Tricare, Medicare is higher, but the same mechanism exists. This means, that no matter how many bottles of Lipitor are sold, or at what price, the government (taxpayers) will purchase an unlimited supply. If the drug manufacturer changes the price from $100 a bottle to $300 dollars a bottle, it doesn't matter...Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare will continue to purchase the same amount (or more because Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare enrolees are increasing).
You and I would only pay $50 dollars a bottle for Lipitor, because that's what we think it's worth...but the government (taxpayers) will purchase it at $300 a bottle, because there is no increase to the Medicaid/Tricare consumer...it always stays $3 a bottle.
Therefore, the government (Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare/PERA, etc.) sets the market price for pharmaceutical drugs. And the prices keep escalating out of control.
Similar mechanisms exist for the prices of medical procedures, although at the hospital level, we are also dealing with the effect of ER visits from those who don't pay. MD's will also increase the cost of services due to the low reimbursement rate on Medicare/Medicaid services, thus "cost-shifting" health care to the general population.
pricejj
10-21-2011, 03:23 PM
You may ask the question, "Does single payer work?"
It doesn't, as is evidenced all throughout the world. The taxpayers can't afford it. An ever increasing percentage of tax revenue has to be allocated to single payer to keep up with the ever-increasing demand, and the ever-increasing prices. Sure, the government may be able to implement "price controls", however, price controls destroy innovation, and simply don't work. There is no competition or incentive to keep costs low, therefore costs to the producers and consumers always increase faster than inflation. It is why Europe is bankrupt, without having any military, and the highest individual income tax rates in the world.
In single payer health care systems, costs always rise faster than inflation........Single payer systems create an inefficient economy in which too many resources (tax dollars) are used for non-necessary health-care.
In a free market health care system, competition and innovation, supply and demand, are the driving factors behind pricing. Costs will be kept low, because if they get to be too high...people won't buy it.
Socialism doesn't work!
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-21-2011, 08:51 PM
You may ask the question, "Does single payer work?"
It doesn't, as is evidenced all throughout the world. The taxpayers can't afford it. An ever increasing percentage of tax revenue has to be allocated to single payer to keep up with the ever-increasing demand, and the ever-increasing prices. Sure, the government may be able to implement "price controls", however, price controls destroy innovation, and simply don't work. There is no competition or incentive to keep costs low, therefore costs to the producers and consumers always increase faster than inflation. It is why Europe is bankrupt, without having any military, and the highest individual income tax rates in the world.
In single payer health care systems, costs always rise faster than inflation........Single payer systems create an inefficient economy in which too many resources (tax dollars) are used for non-necessary health-care.
In a free market health care system, competition and innovation, supply and demand, are the driving factors behind pricing. Costs will be kept low, because if they get to be too high...people won't buy it.
Socialism doesn't work!
Thank You.
barryr
10-21-2011, 10:53 PM
You may ask the question, "Does single payer work?"
It doesn't, as is evidenced all throughout the world. The taxpayers can't afford it. An ever increasing percentage of tax revenue has to be allocated to single payer to keep up with the ever-increasing demand, and the ever-increasing prices. Sure, the government may be able to implement "price controls", however, price controls destroy innovation, and simply don't work. There is no competition or incentive to keep costs low, therefore costs to the producers and consumers always increase faster than inflation. It is why Europe is bankrupt, without having any military, and the highest individual income tax rates in the world.
In single payer health care systems, costs always rise faster than inflation........Single payer systems create an inefficient economy in which too many resources (tax dollars) are used for non-necessary health-care.
In a free market health care system, competition and innovation, supply and demand, are the driving factors behind pricing. Costs will be kept low, because if they get to be too high...people won't buy it.
Socialism doesn't work!
True, but the liberals are stubbornly dumb about it.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-22-2011, 03:10 AM
Meanwhile, back in the real world:
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/21/8428252-wal-mart-rolls-back-health-care-benefits
Exactly.
Bronco_Beerslug
10-22-2011, 06:30 AM
You may ask the question, "Does single payer work?"
In a free market health care system, competition and innovation, supply and demand, are the driving factors behind pricing. Costs will be kept low, because if they get to be too high...people won't buy it.
Socialism doesn't work!
The ignorance of this post is appalling. You apparently don't get it either. In this country Health Care costs have been spiraling out of control for years in our "free market". In fact, these costs now are the the number one reason why our economy is going red. Not SS, not even Medicaid and and out of control Defense spending.
How anyone could defend this corporate rape of Americans is beyond me.
pricejj
10-22-2011, 07:16 AM
The ignorance of this post is appalling. You apparently don't get it either. In this country Health Care costs have been spiraling out of control for years in our "free market". In fact, these costs now are the the number one reason why our economy is going red. Not SS, not even Medicaid and and out of control Defense spending.
How anyone could defend this corporate rape of Americans is beyond me.
Healthcare costs in the U.S. are spiralling out of control because of government involvement in a private industry (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, PERA). There is no free market.
Your graph proves my point... thanks.
So, in America, government interference in the market for health care causes out-of-control growth in cost, but in Canada, even more government interference in the health market causes less out-of-control growth in cost.
You didn't get the point of the data.
Healthcare costs in the U.S. are spiralling out of control because of government involvement in a private industry (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, PERA). There is no free market.
There's less of a free market in Canada, and health care costs there have risen less than here.
Explain.
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-22-2011, 11:01 AM
So, in America, government interference in the market for health care causes out-of-control growth in cost, but in Canada, even more government interference in the health market causes less out-of-control growth in cost.
You didn't get the point of the data.
LOL. W*GS can't read a graph again! LOL
LOL. W*GS can't read a graph again! LOL
Your problem...
https://7chan.org/tg/src/131378868918.jpg
UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-22-2011, 11:08 AM
Your problem...
https://7chan.org/tg/src/131378868918.jpg
Why are you showing me your homemade porn?
pricejj
10-25-2011, 11:35 AM
There's less of a free market in Canada, and health care costs there have risen less than here.
Explain.
In Canada's single payer healthcare system costs spiral out of control at a rate much faster than inflation. In the U.S. healthcare system, heavy government involvement (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, PERA) in the private healthcare industry, causes costs to spiral out of control at a rate even faster than in single payer (costs have risen substantially due to Obamacare, alone). Single payer doesn't work, and the current "toxic-mix" of private and public systems in the U.S. is even worse.
Both systems are not working. You can observe the same cost escalation in college tuition, due to government involvement (pell grants, student loans).
What is the solution?
The solution is a fiscally conservative approach, which limits federal government involvement in a private-sector industry, thus preventing skyrocketing prices.
1. Non-Profit Health Insurance (like Kaiser).
2. Make available tax-free HSA's for everyone (through banks), so the individual can plan and save.
3. Make available High Deductible Catastrophic Insurance at the state level, non-mandatory.
4. Regulate Medicaid for Fraud Waste & Abuse.
5. Allow patient sign-off, for Physician Liability Waiver (for reduced pricing).
6. Institute federally funded HSA accounts for Medicare/Medicaid with block grant funding (putting the spending decisions in the hands of the patient/parent).
7. Those who refuse to pay for their own healthcare (not paying for hospital bills) are automatically enrolled in state plan.