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MABroncoFan
10-14-2011, 01:33 PM
For whom?

DnDenver Denver Sports Nation
Percy Harvin rumors might have him coming to Denver in a trade with Minnesota

Rother8
10-14-2011, 01:34 PM
For whom?

DnDenver Denver Sports Nation
Percy Harvin rumors might have him coming to Denver in a trade with Minnesota

For B Lloyd?
For Harvin and a 5th? Cool

Or KO8

goldengopher1976
10-14-2011, 01:38 PM
Durability issues abound, but if he could stay health(ier), a player with Harvin's versatility is exactly the kind needed to support and exploit the possibilities of a Tebow-themed offense. So says I, anyway.

MacGruder
10-14-2011, 01:38 PM
wow.. now that would be classic.. one fool's gold traded for another..

Percy Harvin is a great guy.. but I have noticed something very strange about him.. whenever he has monster numbers his team loses. This was true at Florida and Minnesota... I wonder if Minnesota figured this out?

Even if that is the case Tebow and Harvin's familiarity could be worth it anyway.

LRtagger
10-14-2011, 01:38 PM
another thread says Orton for harvin. That would be ballerific

Tim
10-14-2011, 01:39 PM
Please let this one be true...

Percy/tebow florida highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3vyqgENY90

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 01:40 PM
If they actually went out and got Harvin I might start thinking they actually want Tebow to succeed. That said, I'll be absolutely shocked if it happens.

Crushaholic
10-14-2011, 01:43 PM
Would that make Quan Cosby expendable? Harvin can be deadly, in the return game...

DeuceOfClub
10-14-2011, 01:43 PM
wow.. now that would be classic.. one fool's gold traded for another..

Percy Harvin is a great guy.. but I have noticed something very strange about him.. whenever he has monster numbers his team loses. This was true at Florida and Minnesota... I wonder if Minnesota figured this out?

Even if that is the case Tebow and Harvin's familiarity could be worth it anyway.


excellent observation.
Just keep him inactive all season and go undefeated.

maher_tyler
10-14-2011, 01:44 PM
another thread says Orton for harvin. That would be ballerific

I'd **** my pants...

broncocalijohn
10-14-2011, 01:45 PM
If they actually went out and got Harvin I might start thinking they actually want Tebow to succeed. That said, I'll be absolutely shocked if it happens.

Could be but Harvin can be a plus for the Broncos with any QB back there. This could be the replacement of Lloyd if EFX want to go this route.

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 01:48 PM
Could be but Harvin can be a plus for the Broncos with any QB back there. This could be the replacement of Lloyd if EFX want to go this route.

Sure, but the chemistry between Harvin and Tebow is well-documented. I really doubt a move like this would be purely coincidental.

Smiling Assassin27
10-14-2011, 01:48 PM
For whom?

DnDenver Denver Sports Nation
Percy Harvin rumors might have him coming to Denver in a trade with Minnesota

Gimme Kevin Williams or Hussain Abdulah with Harvin for Lloyd and a Conditional 4th or 5th rounder.

Inkana7
10-14-2011, 01:49 PM
nooooo not captain migraine.

elsid13
10-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Why would Minnesota make that trade?

cutthemdown
10-14-2011, 01:54 PM
If they actually went out and got Harvin I might start thinking they actually want Tebow to succeed. That said, I'll be absolutely shocked if it happens.

Been telling you the whole time you are wrong. Then when things start going the opposite of how you predict you change your facts without changing your assumptions. That my friend is called someone who already has his mind made up and it won't matter what he sees or hears.

vonqkilla
10-14-2011, 01:57 PM
Dream on.

StugotsIII
10-14-2011, 01:59 PM
Why Harvin doesn't run the ball, I have no idea...


Perhaps the Vikes don't know how to use him...


Perhaps they are not sold on McNabb...


Either way...I doubt they bite...

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 01:59 PM
Been telling you the whole time you are wrong. Then when things start going the opposite of how you predict you change your facts without changing your assumptions. That my friend is called someone who already has his mind made up and it won't matter what he sees or hears.

Say what? What is going opposite of how I predicted exactly?

NFLBRONCO
10-14-2011, 02:00 PM
If this happens do we call Harvin Dthomas Royal: The Pandis Trio

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 02:00 PM
Why would Minnesota make that trade?

Massive quantities of crack?

WABronco
10-14-2011, 02:02 PM
Lol that's a good one. Elite offensive talent for...what exactly?

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 02:12 PM
Lol that's a good one. Elite offensive talent for...what exactly?

Harvin has a lot of question marks hanging over his head right now. He's got injury issues and he hasn't produced at all this year. If there are any internal matters going on, I could easily see them trading him. But not for Orton. Not straight up at least. We'd need to give up way more than that. And even then I really can't imagine them wanting Orton's contract.

OBF1
10-14-2011, 02:15 PM
Harvin and Adrian Peterson for orton and Lloyd.

schaaf
10-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Harvin and Adrian Peterson for orton and Lloyd.

Straight up....I'd probably think about it

cutthemdown
10-14-2011, 02:24 PM
Say what? What is going opposite of how I predicted exactly?

Well you said Broncos won't play Tebow because of money. I said no just be patient and wait, by week 8 it will be Tebow. Fox just wants to see for himself whether or not Orton can play on Sundays like he does on Wednesdays. Once he showed he can't, and the vets see that he got a shot, I said Tebow would get his.

Then you decide to change it up and say Orton was so bad, that the Broncos re crunched the numbers and decided they will now lose more starting Orton, so in comes Tebow.

It's just ridiculous even when you are blatantly wrong you still spin it to be right. You should go in to politics for the dumbass party.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-14-2011, 02:27 PM
Brb starting rumors of nekkid Marisa Tomei waiting in my bed and my wife's cool with it.

epicSocialism4tw
10-14-2011, 02:29 PM
Harvin and Adrian Peterson for orton and Lloyd.

I think youre onto something there.

Where do I signe?

Inkana7
10-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Brb starting rumors of nekkid Marisa Tomei waiting in my bed and my wife's cool with it.

That'd be so awesome...

...we're talking My Cousin Vinny-era Marisa Tomei, right?

WABronco
10-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Harvin has a lot of question marks hanging over his head right now. He's got injury issues and he hasn't produced at all this year. If there are any internal matters going on, I could easily see them trading him. But not for Orton. Not straight up at least. We'd need to give up way more than that. And even then I really can't imagine them wanting Orton's contract.

No you're right...there's always the dynamic of a new regime. I just don't see them surrendering a talent like that for scraps. I'd be more than willing to surrender more than scraps for Harvin, though. Get him away from McNabb, and plug-n-play with Tebow.

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 02:31 PM
Well you said Broncos won't play Tebow because of money. I said no just be patient and wait, by week 8 it will be Tebow. Fox just wants to see for himself whether or not Orton can play on Sundays like he does on Wednesdays. Once he showed he can't, and the vets see that he got a shot, I said Tebow would get his.

Then you decide to change it up and say Orton was so bad, that the Broncos re crunched the numbers and decided they will now lose more starting Orton, so in comes Tebow.

It's just ridiculous even when you are blatantly wrong you still spin it to be right. You should go in to politics for the dumbass party.

I never said anything was conclusively true. I still think money played a part in the whole thing, but when a player plays as bad as Orton was playing that isn't enough. But it's all just opinion and speculation. I don't know for a fact that it was money based, just as you don't know for a fact that it wasn't. So stop being a jackass.

Seriously this team is 25 million under the cap. If you don't think money is a factor in their decisions, I just don't know what to say.

TheChamp24
10-14-2011, 02:32 PM
Harvin and Adrian Peterson for orton and Lloyd.

Can we toss in Moreno there as well to seal the deal?

Dr. Broncenstein
10-14-2011, 02:33 PM
That'd be so awesome...

...we're talking My Cousin Vinny-era Marisa Tomei, right?

She's as rad now as she was then. But sure, add that to the rumor. Have you seen Before the Devil Knows You're Dead? Holy moly.

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 02:34 PM
That'd be so awesome...

...we're talking My Cousin Vinny-era Marisa Tomei, right?

I'd take any era of Marisa Tomei. She's still hot even today.

Tombstone RJ
10-14-2011, 02:37 PM
Why would Minnesota make that trade?

maybe they like the way the Herschel Walker trade worked out and they feel nostalgic?

extralife
10-14-2011, 03:01 PM
They're not trading for a QB, for ****'s sake. They just drafted one, and something tells me they aren't going to trade a former first round pick for a guy to be a stop gap for a half a season (by replacing the current stop gap, no less). As part of some Lloyd trade? I guess it's possible--they've historically been accustomed to having a deep threat, and right now they don't have one.

Dagmar
10-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Another "reported nowhere" rumor right?

broncosteven
10-14-2011, 03:07 PM
nooooo not captain migraine.

This concerns me also.

I like Harvin for Orton but not for Lloyd.

If they trade Orton for Harvin and Lloyd for picks the FO would really be putting us in a position to be a playoff team next year, should Timmy pan out.

I just hope Harvin has his migraines under control.

broncosteven
10-14-2011, 03:09 PM
She's as rad now as she was then. But sure, add that to the rumor. Have you seen Before the Devil Knows You're Dead? Holy moly.

The movie sucked but the fact that she was naked in over 50% of her scenes made it worth repeated screenings.

crowebomber
10-14-2011, 03:12 PM
This concerns me also.

I like Harvin for Orton but not for Lloyd.

If they trade Orton for Harvin and Lloyd for picks the FO would really be putting us in a position to be a playoff team next year, should Timmy pan out.

I just hope Harvin has his migraines under control.

TD could come back as Harvin's personal migraine consultant.

vonqkilla
10-14-2011, 03:14 PM
Tomei vs Winslett vs Paltrow vs Sharon Stone battle royal.

MacGruder
10-14-2011, 03:14 PM
I thought Harvin solved the migraine problem.. last I heard it was sleep apnea related.

KevinJames
10-14-2011, 03:32 PM
this is one rumor id love to be true

MagicHef
10-14-2011, 03:32 PM
I am pretty indifferent to whether we actually get Harvin or not, but I really hope the rumor is true that we're trying to. It would show that the FO actually wants Tebow to succeed.

broncosteven
10-14-2011, 03:44 PM
I thought Harvin solved the migraine problem.. last I heard it was sleep apnea related.

If he did then I love the idea of trading for him even more.

oubronco
10-14-2011, 03:46 PM
Brb starting rumors of nekkid Marisa Tomei waiting in oubronco's bed and his wife's cool with it.

Fuggin A buddy :thumbsup:

Tombstone RJ
10-14-2011, 03:46 PM
Tomei vs Winslett vs Paltrow vs Sharon Stone battle royal.

wow, we have a Winslett sighting...

smoke4815162342
10-14-2011, 03:48 PM
Nobody wants KO

Lloyd + a 5th for Harvin is a great deal, I dont see Minny makin the offer

epicSocialism4tw
10-14-2011, 03:50 PM
Nobody wants KO

Lloyd + a 5th for Harvin is a great deal, I dont see Minny makin the offer

I think that Lloyd is more valuable at this point given that Harvin never plays.

smoke4815162342
10-14-2011, 03:53 PM
I think that Lloyd is more valuable at this point given that Harvin never plays.

not when Lloyd requires a big contract extension or you let him leave in free agency after 10 games.

gyldenlove
10-14-2011, 03:56 PM
I like this we can add a migraine riddled reciever to the group - he will be awesome for the 5 games he can play annually.

Play2win
10-14-2011, 04:02 PM
That'd be so awesome...

...we're talking My Cousin Vinny-era Marisa Tomei, right?

How about Flashdance-era Jennifer Beals...

Captain 'Dre
10-14-2011, 04:20 PM
I'd **** my pants...

As long as you don't **** my pants, bro. ugh!~

McDman
10-14-2011, 04:27 PM
Vikings need a legit #1 receiver in the worst way. I could actually see them biting on a trade, not sure they'd give up Harvin though.

TonyR
10-14-2011, 04:35 PM
...we're talking My Cousin Vinny-era Marisa Tomei, right?

Yeah, right? You can put anyone you want in your fantasy and the guy throws in a 48 year old woman. That's just not right.

Ranger24
10-14-2011, 04:46 PM
Tomei vs Winslett vs Paltrow vs Sharon Stone battle royal.

PILLOW FIGHT!!!!

I'd join in

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 04:50 PM
Yeah, right? You can put anyone you want in your fantasy and the guy throws in a 48 year old woman. That's just not right.

Two things:

1) She's 46.

2) She's still hotter than most the soulless models people on here use as avatars. Seriously an aging woman can be beautiful, and she is.

TonyR
10-14-2011, 04:58 PM
Two things:

1) She's 46.

2) She's still hotter than most the soulless models people on here use as avatars. Seriously an aging woman can be beautiful, and she is.

You're right, 47 in December.
And yes, she's attractive and an aging woman can be beautiful. But lets face it, when it comes to a "you can have anyone you want" scenaria I don't see how she even enters the conversation. But to each his own.

Chris
10-14-2011, 05:07 PM
Charlie rose convinced Marisa tomei to skinny dip with him. Picture that.

Jay3
10-14-2011, 05:09 PM
Charlie rose convinced Marisa tomei to skinny dip with him. Picture that.

Is it all right if I picture Tebow in the water with them?

Dr. Broncenstein
10-14-2011, 05:11 PM
Yeah, right? You can put anyone you want in your fantasy and the guy throws in a 48 year old woman. That's just not right.

Trannys with bolt-on breasts aren't really my thing, either.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-14-2011, 05:13 PM
Is it all right if I picture Tebow in the water with them?

Whatever makes you happy. Nothing queer about feeling gay.

Houshyamama
10-14-2011, 05:17 PM
Whatever makes you happy. Nothing queer about feeling gay.

does not compute

Dr. Broncenstein
10-14-2011, 05:19 PM
does not compute

Nothing eccentric about feeling happy. What did you think I meant?

Jay3
10-14-2011, 05:20 PM
Whatever makes you happy. Nothing queer about feeling gay.

Well, I'm not there in the water with them. That would be perverted. It's just Marisa Tomei, Charlie Rose, and Tim Tebow.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-14-2011, 05:22 PM
Well, I'm not there in the water with them. That would be perverted. It's just Marisa Tomei, Charlie Rose, and Tim Tebow.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHrYKeV_j8APioaaM6IE8Gz0F0ALE1F Iv-21weGiwWKIfOMI8pcahATgAnDQ

Rolandftw
10-14-2011, 05:22 PM
Trading for Harvin would be a good move. He's someone that Tebow is familiar with and if healthy, would be a good fit.

Still don't think Royal fits at all with this team, but both Thomas and Harvin are the type of receivers Tebow can be successful with.

GoHAM
10-14-2011, 05:46 PM
nooooo not captain migraine.

Harvin must be pushing for this trade.

Those migraines can be debilitating, unless you have a medical marijuana card from Colorado. :puff:

TonyR
10-14-2011, 05:49 PM
Harvin must be pushing for this trade.

Harvin isn't pushing for anything. This is a silly interwebz rumor.

GoHAM
10-14-2011, 05:58 PM
Harvin isn't pushing for anything. This is a silly interwebz rumor.

No, Really?
Maybe I should have indicated my sarcasm a little bit more clearly.:poke:

TonyR
10-14-2011, 06:42 PM
No, Really?

Sorry, I only read the first line of your post and jumped to conclusions. My bad.

Inkana7
10-14-2011, 08:24 PM
I'd take any era of Marisa Tomei. She's still hot even today.

I totally agree. But younger Marisa Tomei is holy **** hot.

Simple Jake
10-14-2011, 09:07 PM
Would that make Quan Cosby expendable? Harvin can be deadly, in the return game...

No!! Not Quan Cosby!! Uhh

epicSocialism4tw
10-14-2011, 10:04 PM
Why on earth did Percy's parents pass up on a chance to name him Marvin?

Ratboy
10-14-2011, 10:10 PM
another thread says Orton for harvin. That would be ballerific

Wet dream.

cutthemdown
10-14-2011, 10:15 PM
I never said anything was conclusively true. I still think money played a part in the whole thing, but when a player plays as bad as Orton was playing that isn't enough. But it's all just opinion and speculation. I don't know for a fact that it was money based, just as you don't know for a fact that it wasn't. So stop being a jackass.

Seriously this team is 25 million under the cap. If you don't think money is a factor in their decisions, I just don't know what to say.

Not sure there was anyone worth the money. All that means is its been a long time since the Broncos were like man we need sign all these great players to long term contracts. Aso in philly is a bust, tons of the big FA are total busts just like usual. Not easy to switch teams and play well. Some do but really how much money you throw at them has little to do with it.

So Broncos go out and over pay for a bunch of mediocre players spend the cap limit? How does that make us better? Elway and Xandars did the right thing by looking for bargains and trying to get better through the draft. Trust me when the Broncos have their own good young players to resign they will do it. They have a good track record of retaining players that are worth it.

What they don't have a track record of doing is purposefully sitting the best QB because they think they might have to pay the other QB a bonus if he plays too much. Are you kidding? They want these players to become all pros and hit all their incentives. They know that means the team is probably kicking ass.

cutthemdown
10-14-2011, 10:17 PM
Orton could get traded if he said he was willing to do a new deal with the new team. Instead though he is better off getting the 10 million or whatever from Denver, then head into next yr hand picking a spot he may have a chance to play at. Then after that fails Orton will probably be a journeyman back up.

Agamemnon
10-14-2011, 10:37 PM
Not sure there was anyone worth the money. All that means is its been a long time since the Broncos were like man we need sign all these great players to long term contracts. Aso in philly is a bust, tons of the big FA are total busts just like usual. Not easy to switch teams and play well. Some do but really how much money you throw at them has little to do with it.

So Broncos go out and over pay for a bunch of mediocre players spend the cap limit? How does that make us better? Elway and Xandars did the right thing by looking for bargains and trying to get better through the draft. Trust me when the Broncos have their own good young players to resign they will do it. They have a good track record of retaining players that are worth it.

What they don't have a track record of doing is purposefully sitting the best QB because they think they might have to pay the other QB a bonus if he plays too much. Are you kidding? They want these players to become all pros and hit all their incentives. They know that means the team is probably kicking ass.

Getting Mebane and Aubrayo Franklin would've cost less than 15 million a year (I believe they went for 5 million a year each so up that by 50% to make sure they come here). You really think that would've been overpaying for two young, talented DTs for a team with 25 million in cap space and long history of having crap at DT? C'mon now.

They didn't even try. But instead simply chose to sit on that massive cap void and bring in a bunch of half-ass solutions that were decidedly cheaper. There's a lot of signs that the Broncos have become a budget team if you look for them.

SoCalBronco
10-14-2011, 10:39 PM
Getting Mebane and Aubrayo Franklin would've costed less than 15 million a year (I believe they went for 5 million a year each so up that by 50% to make sure they come here). You really think that would've been overpaying for two young, talented DTs for a team with 25 million in cap space and long history of having crap at DT? C'mon now.

They didn't even try. But instead simply chose to sit on that massive cap void and bring in a bunch of half-ass solutions that were decidedly cheaper. There's a lot of signs that the Broncos have become a budget team if you look for them.

The cap floor does not come into effect until 2013, so we'll see more of the same next year.

Popps
10-15-2011, 12:26 AM
Getting Mebane and Aubrayo Franklin would've cost less than 15 million a year (I believe they went for 5 million a year each so up that by 50% to make sure they come here). You really think that would've been overpaying for two young, talented DTs for a team with 25 million in cap space and long history of having crap at DT? C'mon now.

They didn't even try. But instead simply chose to sit on that massive cap void and bring in a bunch of half-ass solutions that were decidedly cheaper. There's a lot of signs that the Broncos have become a budget team if you look for them.

Unless of course you factor in things like the extension of Champ Bailey, the massive contract they gave Dumervil, etc.

This team has been sloppy with money for a long time. I've got no problem with them cleaning up the books and getting the right guys under contract. Building through the draft and making smart FA decisions are staples of teams like Pitt, NE and GB. If that's the direction we're going... works for me.

Ask Washington and Philly how spending willy-nilly works out.

Drek
10-15-2011, 03:17 AM
Unless of course you factor in things like the extension of Champ Bailey, the massive contract they gave Dumervil, etc.

This team has been sloppy with money for a long time. I've got no problem with them cleaning up the books and getting the right guys under contract. Building through the draft and making smart FA decisions are staples of teams like Pitt, NE and GB. If that's the direction we're going... works for me.

Ask Washington and Philly how spending willy-nilly works out.

New England has always used free agency as a key building block of their franchise, not exactly your best example here.

You can't say we were looking to make "smart" FA decisions because we made almost none. McGahee, Warren, and Fells. You really think this team only had a handful of holes to fill? And why are we filling them with old players if we're trying to clean **** up and rebuild? Warren's over 30 and has been oft injured. Mebane and Cofield were 26 and 27 respectively with clean bills of health. They signed for only slightly more than Warren.

Also, Champ's extension actually lowered his average annual value and if they hadn't extended either him or Doom we wouldn't be talking about ~$25M under the cap, we'd be talking about ~$50M under the cap. We'd be the KC Royals of the NFL.

This team hasn't been sloppy with money for a long time. They've been cheap with money and as a result make ****ty FA moves for guys who will take back loaded deals. Why do you think we give deals to people like Simeon Rice, Leon Lett, Lional Dalton, etc.? Because they were all far enough past their prime to sign here for **** contracts.

We've been a top 10 revenue team for at least this entire decade. Over the same time frame we've been a bottom 10 team in real cash spent. That's from Forbes' own data back in '08 when Shanahan had more financial flexability than McDaniels ever did. How do you rectify those facts with us being "sloppy" with money and needing to clean up the books? Especially when the books show $25M in free cap room. Not $5M, the amount Mebane got paid. Not $10M, a little more than Jonathan Joseph got from the Texans, but $25M. Enough to have signed a plethora of real difference makers in the best FA class we're likely ever going to see.

bowtown
10-15-2011, 06:14 AM
New England has always used free agency as a key building block of their franchise, not exactly your best example here.

.

NE is able to use FA as a building block because they have a solid system in place and know what kind of guys can come in a fill in roles. That takes time to build. We don't have that luxury yet. This team was in shambles and we need to get a system and identity in place before we can have that kind of success with free agency. Not saying we should ignore it all together, but I don't think your example is great either.

Drek
10-15-2011, 06:36 AM
NE is able to use FA as a building block because they have a solid system in place and know what kind of guys can come in a fill in roles. That takes time to build. We don't have that luxury yet. This team was in shambles and we need to get a system and identity in place before we can have that kind of success with free agency. Not saying we should ignore it all together, but I don't think your example is great either.

No, New England just chose the right FAs.

Antowain Smith, signed from Buffalo in 2001, led the Patriots in rushing that same year.
David Patten, signed from the Giants in 2001, #2 WR for the Patriots that same year.
Marc Edwards, signed from Cleveland (via San Fran) in 2001, starting FB.
Roman Phiffer, signed from the Jets (via St. Louis) in 2001, starting LB.
Otis Smith, signed from the Jets in 2000, starting corner.
Bobby Hamilton, signed from the Jets in 2000, starting DE.
Mike Vrabel, signed from the Steelers in 2001, starting LB.
Anthony Pleasant, signed from the 49ers in 2001, starting DE.
Bryant Cox, signed from the Jets in 2001, started 7 games that season as a LB.
Ken Walter, signed from the Panthers in 2001, starting punter.
Joe Andruzzi, UDFA picked off the Packers roster in 2000, starting OG.
Mike Compton, signed from the Lions in 2001, starting OG.

I count 12 starters out of 24 (including K and P) going into their 2001 championship season who were either signed via free agency in 2000 or 2001. Many of them played key roles in the '03 and '04 titles as well.

Detroit didn't wait to get a "system and identity in place" yet about 1/3rd of all their starters came from other teams, including the majority of their defense. How did they go from perennial loser to an unbeaten 5-0 team in only two seasons?

Smart drafting for game changers and filling all your other holes with quality FA signings.

But the Broncos organization is too cheap to do that.

elsid13
10-15-2011, 06:40 AM
NE is able to use FA as a building block because they have a solid system in place and know what kind of guys can come in a fill in roles. That takes time to build. We don't have that luxury yet. This team was in shambles and we need to get a system and identity in place before we can have that kind of success with free agency. Not saying we should ignore it all together, but I don't think your example is great either.

I think it has less to do with the system and more to the fact they have Brady in place. NE has really struggled on finding good FA and draft picks the last couple of years.

OrangeSe7en
10-15-2011, 03:30 PM
You're right, 47 in December.And yes, she's attractive and an aging woman can be beautiful. But lets face it, when it comes to a "you can have anyone you want" scenaria I don't see how she even enters the conversation. But to each his own.

Whats the point of this? It doesn't make you less wrong.

HooptyHoops
10-15-2011, 03:59 PM
Well, I wish this rumor is true....but, it seems very far fetched, as Harvin is electricity when the ball is in his hands, surely the Vikings brass can see that too. Oh, how I wish this was true!

Smilin Assassin
10-15-2011, 03:59 PM
Yeah, right? You can put anyone you want in your fantasy and the guy throws in a 48 year old woman. That's just not right.


Have you seen her in "The Wrestler"?

Trust me, any guy'd be lucky...

Pseudofool
10-15-2011, 04:04 PM
Listening to their show the rumored trade is: Lloyd and Orton for Harvin and a 6th or 7th. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/denversportsnation/2011/10/15/denver-sports-nation-with-d-in-denverjay-e-roc
@21min mark

Agamemnon
10-15-2011, 04:07 PM
Listening to their show the rumored trade is: Lloyd and Orton for Harvin and a 6th or 7th. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/denversportsnation/2011/10/15/denver-sports-nation-with-d-in-denverjay-e-roc
@21min mark

Yes please...

HooptyHoops
10-15-2011, 04:10 PM
Listening to their show the rumored trade is: Lloyd and Orton for Harvin and a 6th or 7th. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/denversportsnation/2011/10/15/denver-sports-nation-with-d-in-denverjay-e-roc
@21min mark

Do it.....do it NOW!!!

Smilin Assassin
10-15-2011, 04:15 PM
Listening to their show the rumored trade is: Lloyd and Orton for Harvin and a 6th or 7th. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/denversportsnation/2011/10/15/denver-sports-nation-with-d-in-denverjay-e-roc
@21min mark

If only....

"If it seems to good to be true...."

Popps
10-15-2011, 04:43 PM
New England has always used free agency as a key building block of their franchise, not exactly your best example here.
.

You show me any Patriots playoff team, and I'll guess without even seeing the roster that 90% of their key players were home grown.

Yes, they rented players like Moss, Harrison and others to fill gaps through the years. By the way, those are what I'd call "smart" pick-ups. Low investment, high return. Even their trades were smart. (Welker.)

How many massive free agent contracts of high-profile players do you recall the Patriots giving out over the last decade?

New England has always used free agency as a key building block of their franchise, not exactly your best example here.

You can't say we were looking to make "smart" FA decisions because we made almost none. \.

You also can't base your entire opinion on one off-season, a shortened off-season no less. Particularly when our biggest acquisition went down with injury. Was that a "smart" signing? Maybe not, but they took a calculated gamble on hitting a home-run and stuck out... for now. Still, signings like Thomas and trades like Bunkley were solid moves. What about McGahee? Fantastic, smart bargain signing.

I've been a proponent of landing big-name, big-quality FA's from time to time. I didn't see many in FA this year that looked like team-changers to me. I also didn't really expect a coach to come in here in his first season (after a lockout) and fire all of his barrels at once.

Now, if we're as conservative next off-season... we can start to have this discussion. But, for now... I think you have to give the staff a chance to get settled in and figure out who works in their systems and who doesn't.

Popps
10-15-2011, 04:51 PM
No, New England just chose the right FAs.

Antowain Smith, signed from Buffalo in 2001, led the Patriots in rushing that same year.
David Patten, signed from the Giants in 2001, #2 WR for the Patriots that same year.
Marc Edwards, signed from Cleveland (via San Fran) in 2001, starting FB.
Roman Phiffer, signed from the Jets (via St. Louis) in 2001, starting LB.
Otis Smith, signed from the Jets in 2000, starting corner.
Bobby Hamilton, signed from the Jets in 2000, starting DE.
Mike Vrabel, signed from the Steelers in 2001, starting LB.
Anthony Pleasant, signed from the 49ers in 2001, starting DE.
Bryant Cox, signed from the Jets in 2001, started 7 games that season as a LB.
Ken Walter, signed from the Panthers in 2001, starting punter.
Joe Andruzzi, UDFA picked off the Packers roster in 2000, starting OG.
Mike Compton, signed from the Lions in 2001, starting OG.

I count 12 starters out of 24 (including K and P) going into their 2001 championship season who were either signed via free agency in 2000 or 2001.
Smart drafting for game changers and filling all your other holes with quality FA signings.

But the Broncos organization is too cheap to do that.


You're making two arguments, here.

Denver did EXACTLY the kind of thing New England generally does. (This past off-season.) Bringing in guys like Bunkley and McGahee and getting great production out of them at a great price. Look at the list you posted. Most of those guys were near the end of their careers, or low impact-players.

How about the other half of their championship and playoff teams? Guys like Brady, Seymour, McGinist, Bruschi? Most of their big names were drafted, and they filled the gaps with very smart FA signings.

Maybe we're saying essentially the same thing here... except you're calling NE smart for doing it, and when Denver does it... you call it "cheap."
Can't be both ways, and again... I wouldn't use one shortened off-season with a new staff to make definitive statements about what we're doing.

Again, Doom and Champ were locked up to large contracts. Smart moves. (Well, smart if Doom can stay healthy.) Denver seems to be spending money when it counts.

Give it some time, see how the drafts pan out and how it all comes together. There isn't always a strong correlation between dollars spent and quality.

Popps
10-15-2011, 04:52 PM
I'd also say this... if you truly believe you're one player away from greatness, you go buy that player if he's out there. We're clearly in no such position.

McDman
10-15-2011, 06:42 PM
Getting Mebane and Aubrayo Franklin would've cost less than 15 million a year (I believe they went for 5 million a year each so up that by 50% to make sure they come here). You really think that would've been overpaying for two young, talented DTs for a team with 25 million in cap space and long history of having crap at DT? C'mon now.

They didn't even try. But instead simply chose to sit on that massive cap void and bring in a bunch of half-ass solutions that were decidedly cheaper. There's a lot of signs that the Broncos have become a budget team if you look for them.

Maybe they didn't see them as being as talented as you do? I'm going to assume their football knowledge far outweighs yours.

We got Bunkley and Warren. Bunkley has turned out to be pretty legit and who knows what Warren would have done had he not torn a muscle.

TheReverend
10-15-2011, 07:51 PM
Maybe they didn't see them as being as talented as you do? I'm going to assume their football knowledge far outweighs yours.

We got Bunkley and Warren. Bunkley has turned out to be pretty legit and who knows what Warren would have done had he not torn a muscle.

Would be a legit take if they hadn't pumped up Mebane pre-FA period.

...But they did.

Drek
10-15-2011, 09:25 PM
You show me any Patriots playoff team, and I'll guess without even seeing the roster that 90% of their key players were home grown.
Already did this for you, nice to see that you didn't finish reading the thread before replying.

I don't know about you but the way I do math 12 of 24 players who started the majority of the games at their position (i.e. key players) is quite a bit more than 10%.

You also can't base your entire opinion on one off-season, a shortened off-season no less. Particularly when our biggest acquisition went down with injury.
How many FAs who had suited up and actually played meaningful games for any other NFL franchise this past off-season?

Warren, McGahee, Fells, Rosario. That is it. Thats the list. Four guys, two of them at the same position, one of the four didn't even make the club. In other words, we signed fewer FAs of note period than the Patriots signed FA starters in 2001 before winning a title.

I'll repeat: New England signed more guys who started 16 games for them in the off-season before 2001, after going 9-7 the year before, than the Denver Broncos signed FAs period, after going 4-12.

Was that a "smart" signing? Maybe not, but they took a calculated gamble on hitting a home-run and stuck out... for now.
Maybe not? Try absolutely ****ing stupid. His salary in New England for this season was $2.5M. They've shifted to a 4-3 front. They have one of the greatest defensive minds ever as their HC who loves reclamation projects. They saw Warren as a bad bet for $2.5M. So what did the Broncos FO do? Well ****, give him $4M a year. FYI that is all of $1M less than what Cullen Jenkins (younger, healthier) and Brandon Mebane (much younger, much healthier) each got on a per year basis. What was the big difference? Up front signing bonus.

Still, signings like Thomas Resigning our own scrubs isn't how you improve from 4-12.
and trades like Bunkley were solid moves.
Probably the single best move we did in the off-season outside the draft.
What about McGahee? Fantastic, smart bargain signing.
McGahee's looked good for us this year. What do we do come 2012? Or 2013? McGahee doesn't have a ton of years left. If he's the best we could do for FA signings this FO is absolutely, unquestionably ****ed.

I've been a proponent of landing big-name, big-quality FA's from time to time. I didn't see many in FA this year that looked like team-changers to me. I also didn't really expect a coach to come in here in his first season (after a lockout) and fire all of his barrels at once.
Who's saying sign big name guys? I would have liked someone like Jonathan Joseph, sure, but even a basic youthful overhaul at some positions would have been nice.

Jason Snelling resigned with Atlanta for peanuts knowing he's buried behind Michael Turner. Why isn't he on this roster instead of Lance Ball?

Richard Marshall signed a one year deal with the Arizona Cardinals. He's a 26 year old corner with significant starting experience for Fox in Carolina and is by most accounts a solid starter in this league. Instead we're still starting Andre Goodman, who has lost a step every year he's been on this team and is now unable to do his job.

Brandon Mebane did not get elite DT money. He got $1M more per season than Warren, and at 26 he signed a five year deal. Ty Warren got a 2 year deal at 30. So we bought years 30-31 of a guy with serious injury issues versus years 26-31 of a guy with no injury history to speak of in order to save $1M. That is not a big budget breaker deal by NFL standards.

Andre Gurode signed up for a backup role weeks after FA with Baltimore once Dallas cut him. We apparently didn't even so much as kick the tires when a former pro-bowl center with experience at guard (where our two youngest, most raw OLs play) was on the market for pennies.

Jared Gaither is 25 years old and signed with Kansas City for pennies because of injury concerns. Gaither is a solid starting OT when healthy and our OL depth is quite possibly the worst in the entire league. We didn't want in on that when we inked a rookie into our starting lineup?

Kirk Morrison dangled in FA for weeks and signed cheap but we sat back and assured ourselves that Philly just didn't have a clue about Joe Mays and that he was definitely going to work out in a 4-3 this time. Sure would be nice to have a few less coverage liabilities in the LB corps.

This is just the guys I've commented on before. This isn't looking into the second strings of good teams where they quietly retained 25-27 year old talent who haven't gotten much field action yet but have been groomed to be ready, which is what New England did best when they built the '01 team.

Now, if we're as conservative next off-season... we can start to have this discussion. But, for now... I think you have to give the staff a chance to get settled in and figure out who works in their systems and who doesn't.
How did they not have a chance to get settled? They had several months to get settled during the lockout, knowing exactly what was going to happen come FA.

If your argument is that they should be given a carte blanche pass for this season regardless then I'm sorry, I have to completely disagree. The hallmark of the NFL is that teams can turn around on a dime with the right draft picks, the right scheme changes, and yes, the right FA signings. The Broncos all but refused to partake in one of those three facets this past off-season, despite the best, most wide open FA class in recent history.

You're making two arguments, here.
Not at all. But I'd love an explanation as to why you think that.

Denver did EXACTLY the kind of thing New England generally does. (This past off-season.) Bringing in guys like Bunkley and McGahee and getting great production out of them at a great price. Look at the list you posted. Most of those guys were near the end of their careers, or low impact-players.
Most of those Patriots guys I listed were at the start of VERY productive careers in New England. What FA did we sign who is going to suddenly do that for us?

Warren? Hardly.
McGahee? He's got two years left, tops.
Rosario? Wouldn't be on the team if it wasn't for injuries.

So Bunkley, who is a FA after this season, and Fells are the only two building block FA signings they made this past off-season. Yet you want to compare that to a Patriots franchise that signed 12 new starters over the course of two seasons, over half of those coming in the off-season prior to winning a title.

How about the other half of their championship and playoff teams? Guys like Brady, Seymour, McGinist, Bruschi? Most of their big names were drafted, and they filled the gaps with very smart FA signings.
Am I saying to sign big name guys? Am I bitching that we didn't sign Asamougha, Deangelo Williams, etc.? Nope. I'm asking what you call this FO walking into an NFL season without a single NFL level backup for the OL, a broke down vet and a solid but under performing 1st rounder as the only NFL level DTs, lashed themselves to two guys over 30 along with a bunch of UDFA types at corner, etc. etc..

I see it as either gross incompetence or penny pinching. Those are the only two reasonable explanations.

Maybe we're saying essentially the same thing here... except you're calling NE smart for doing it, and when Denver does it... you call it "cheap."
Can't be both ways, and again... I wouldn't use one shortened off-season with a new staff to make definitive statements about what we're doing.
How are the two situations even remotely analogous? We brought back 90% of Josh McDaniels' 2010 team that went 4-12 and are being told to expect wildly different results.

Again, Doom and Champ were locked up to large contracts. Smart moves. (Well, smart if Doom can stay healthy.) Denver seems to be spending money when it counts.
The NFL has a cap floor. Even before the new CBA there was a cap floor. Without the new deals for Doom and Champ we'd be below what the 2010 cap floor was. Bowlen flat out had to give someone that money. Its what he does with the next $25M (i.e. pocket it) that counts.

Give it some time, see how the drafts pan out and how it all comes together. There isn't always a strong correlation between dollars spent and quality.
But there sure is a strong correlation between running out very bad players and losing football games.

Joe Mays has never been able to cover anyone in his entire life. We locked him in as our starting MLB and somehow didn't think a passing league would find a way to exploit him.

Andre Goodman lost a step between '08 and '09 when he first came here, lost another between '09 and '10, and now he's lost another. We really thought this guy was going to keep up?

Cash Vaughn is a UDFA who is raw as hell. We're just dumping the workload on him though because no one else is around to take it.

Kevin Vickerson is so damn bad in a 4-3 that he washed out without seeing significant game time in two different 4-3 fronts. One of those was ran by Jim Schwartz, a guy who knows a thing or two about the defensive line. He had no interest in bringing Kevin to Detroit. Yet we're trying to drive that square peg through a round hole, reality be damned.

I could go on, but I think my point is fairly clear. We could have easily pushed all of these guys down the depth chart or straight off the roster with younger and/or better players for very little extra money. Instead we sat on our thumbs.

The best part is we now have a quote from a few days ago where Xanders said they weren't active on the waiver wire because they wanted the players to come together and feel comfortable. The last thing this milquetoast bunch of halfwits need is a feeling of job security in the back ends of the depth chart. But sure enough we're going to give it to them.

The Steelers and Packers have rosters built through the draft because they've been competitive for over a decade with a few infrequent dips, leading to very little philosophy change and consistent drafting. We are not currently in that situation and unless you really think John Fox is the kind of guy you commit the next decade to we aren't looking at that situation any time soon.

Teams that ushered in quick turnarounds, like the Patriots, Falcons, Lions, Saints, etc. have all made heavy use of free agency. Not for key difference makers, but primarily to quickly replace the middle tier of the roster with real NFL level talent without forcing them to draft based on need.

Draft game changers, sign solid starters and good backups. You do that and you turn a team around in a season or two. You insist that you'll just build it up through the draft and you get an organization like the Rams. A lineup full of guys who shouldn't be playing heavy minutes mixed with young talent who have no consistency or poise on the field. That makes coaching irrelevant and forces the difference maker talents into bad situations.

MagicHef
10-15-2011, 10:22 PM
HUGE POST

Can you be my GM?

schaaf
10-15-2011, 10:43 PM
Dreks proven once again that he is arguably the best poster on the mane

Popps
10-16-2011, 12:32 AM
Agree 100%. Drek is one of my faves.


@Drek,

Good lord that was long. :)

I don't think what we're saying is that much different, in reality. I just think what YOU are saying is premature. To me, it's akin to calling a draft pick a bust after a half-season. The staff came in and added a good amount of talent via the draft and free agency, considering the shortened off-season... which you can't compare to a full off-season.

"Draft game changers, sign solid starters and good backups. You do that and you turn a team around in a season or two. You insist that you'll just build it up through the draft and you get an organization like the Rams. A lineup full of guys who shouldn't be playing heavy minutes mixed with young talent who have no consistency or poise on the field. That makes coaching irrelevant and forces the difference maker talents into bad situations."

Yea, I never insisted it was JUST through the draft. However, I've sat and watched this team piss away draft picks for over a decade... oh, and we haven't done that well in free agency, either.

Again, we've been money-sloppy for years. It's been essentially one or two seasons of pulling back, financially. As I said, if we have a drab off-season and are equally passive next year, I'll be on board with what you're saying 100%. But, right now... I think you've got to give the staff a chance to clean house... see a full season of the players they have and get a couple drafts under their belts.

But, I've been a vocal supporter of improving through free agency around here for a long time. I'm just not sure it's panic-time just yet.

Popps
10-16-2011, 12:33 AM
The cap floor does not come into effect until 2013, so we'll see more of the same next year.

If that's the case, I think all bets are off... and maybe something much larger is going on.

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2011, 12:41 AM
If that's the case, I think all bets are off... and maybe something much larger is going on.

The explanation regarding cash flow seems to be the most sensible.

Jay3
10-16-2011, 03:29 AM
The key is not to try and upgrade or change your squad through FA. The draft is how you get better if you're already serviceable at every position. You want to be in a position to take BPA often.

But FA is how you address outright holes. A lack of serviceable players at a given position. Short term extreme needs.

Drek
10-16-2011, 04:00 AM
I don't think what we're saying is that much different, in reality. I just think what YOU are saying is premature. To me, it's akin to calling a draft pick a bust after a half-season. The staff came in and added a good amount of talent via the draft and free agency, considering the shortened off-season... which you can't compare to a full off-season.
I'd say they did solid in the draft. Their primary goal was to make sure the #2 overall pick gave us a game changer. They've done that. I like Rahim Moore and Orlando Franklin, but they still need to prove they're positive additions, not Nick Ferguson/George Foster types who never become good NFL players but we just keep running them out there every Sunday because we refuse to bring in competition.

In free agency though we were woefully inadequate. We left at least a dozen gaping holes on this roster. Not just starters, you need some worthwhile second string guys as well.

The fact that this was a belated and abbreviated off-season should have put the ball on the tee for this new group. Any other year they would've been forced into making FA signings a month or two after starting. This year they had more than four months to prepare and get their house in order for free agency. Almost three months after the draft where the scouts and FO should have had literally nothing else on their plate. Yet when it opened we sat on our hands and watched others snap up bargains who would have immensely helped this team.

Yea, I never insisted it was JUST through the draft. However, I've sat and watched this team piss away draft picks for over a decade... oh, and we haven't done that well in free agency, either.
The "you" is refrencing FO mindset, not specifically your post. I'm just underscoring the difference in mindset between how this FO is acting and how you actually effect a quick turnaround.

Thing is, you can have ****ty FA moves as long as you don't tie yourself to stupid money when doing it. How much do you think Jason Snelling would have cost to steal from Atlanta? He signed a one year deal with no chance to compete for the starting job. We likely could have had him on a three year deal for almost no guaranteed money, knowing that he's at least a quality backup but might just be a guy ready to break out in the league.

I could make the exact same argument for Richard Marshall. Not a world beater but a young building block we could have had for short money. Maybe he takes the next step in his career and we've got a steal. Instead we stuck with Goodman and the cast off crew at CB.

Again, we've been money-sloppy for years. It's been essentially one or two seasons of pulling back, financially. As I said, if we have a drab off-season and are equally passive next year, I'll be on board with what you're saying 100%. But, right now... I think you've got to give the staff a chance to clean house... see a full season of the players they have and get a couple drafts under their belts.

We retained the same GM, almost the entire scouting staff, and over half of McDaniels' assistants. How do we not know what we have on the roster?

Our situation is very similar to what Detroit had when Jim Schwartz took over in 2009. He came in after a very bad season, to an organization who kept the majority of its FO in place (their GM was Matt Millen's assistant). That didn't stop them from proactively seeking to improve at any spot they could do so for short money. A lot of those first year signings didn't work out real great, but the commitments were small enough that you could flush them and start anew the next off-season.

But instead of stealing depth from better organizations by offering the chance to earn a starting job we kept the same well below NFL level depth we've had for years.

This was a Shanahan problem where the depth was always retreads already well down the downhill slide of their careers. It was exacerbated by McDaniels' depth being cast offs from other teams. Now we just watched an organization with very little turnover in the front office, given several months to prepare, attach themselves to that exact same group of cast offs for another season.

I hope this is off-season marks the last year of Bowlen's fiscal irresponsibility towards this club. But I have a hard time seeing it. He's got at least one more year without a salary floor and I'm pretty sure he's going to make full use of it to pinch every penny and squeeze every dime out of this team.

robbieopperude
10-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Bowlen may have been looking at this thing on the business end and figured why even put the money in for improvements when we were destined for a 5 or 6 win season.