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Mogulseeker
10-11-2011, 09:59 AM
I posted this in another thread, but it had a question that I'd like to address. It's another Tebow thread. So sue me... but it's about moving forward. I supported starting Orton through the Green Bay game, and even against SD, but I supported the switch to Tebow as well. It's time to see what we have at 1-4, and I think the potential is there. I'm kinda a half-believer in Tebow in that I'm cautiously optimistic.

At this point, the question is about how we move forward.

How would we build around Tebow? I'm thinking biggish, possession WRs, with an emphasis on TEs, and quick, pulling guards that are good at blocking side-to-side and downfield, and an additional speed back to compliment McGahee as the PB and Moreno as a passing down back.

We could bring in a guy like Sproles, and run a split back shotgun set along with McGahee two TEs and Decker at the flanker. That would be absolute hell to try and defend. Just send Decker on the post corner, and then school yard "get open" style like the Steelers run with the TEs, with a 1-2-3 running threat with the speed guy to the outside, McGahee on the inside, and Tebow with the option.

The possibilities are sexy.

TheChamp24
10-11-2011, 10:04 AM
I honestly think we will have success, once we get our WR's/TE's healthy, with a spread-option offense.
Decker-Royal-Lloyd-D.Thomas/J.Thomas at WR/TE
McGahee/Moreno in the back
Shotgun with Tebow.
Defense is spread out, and adjust playcalling at the line to fit what you see from the defense.
Basically close to what he was running at Florida, and he was very good at it. I know its different in the pro's, but I think he can make it work. At least worth a try IMO.

Mogulseeker
10-11-2011, 10:05 AM
Someone mentioned the spread option, too, with 4-wide. This would suck to defend because if you sell out the pass, Tebow has a huge running lane - but you can't sell out the run, either.

Mogulseeker
10-11-2011, 10:05 AM
I honestly think we will have success, once we get our WR's/TE's healthy, with a spread-option offense.
Decker-Royal-Lloyd-D.Thomas/J.Thomas at WR/TE
McGahee/Moreno in the back
Shotgun with Tebow.
Defense is spread out, and adjust playcalling at the line to fit what you see from the defense.
Basically close to what he was running at Florida, and he was very good at it. I know its different in the pro's, but I think he can make it work. At least worth a try IMO.

Beat me to it, haha.

Edit -

Except:

Decker-Royal-Lloyd-D.Thomas/J.Thomas at WR/TE
McGahee/Moreno in the back
Shotgun with Tebow.

Is an illegal formation. Take the TE or one of the WRs out and you got it.

barryr
10-11-2011, 10:08 AM
In reality, I think there is more they can do with Tebow than they could with Orton. A more traditional offense wasn't working that wonderfully with Orton anyway.

Mogulseeker
10-11-2011, 10:10 AM
In reality, I think there is more they can do with Tebow than they could with Orton. A more traditional offense wasn't working that wonderfully with Orton anyway.

This much is obvious. Even the Orton supporters like myself can't deny this.

I for one would like to see us get a couple of stud Corners in the first day of the draft this year, and maybe a solid pulling Center/LG. Beadles has been solid but doesn't seem like a long-term answer, and Walton isn't cutting it (although he has improved drastically).

Julius Thomas is going to be money. DT needs to stay healthy... Royal will get better... I think we do re-sign Lloyd, and decker is solid.

I think our running game is fine, I would like to see a speed back brought in though.

TheDave
10-11-2011, 10:11 AM
I honestly think we will have success, once we get our WR's/TE's healthy, with a spread-option offense.
Decker-Royal-Lloyd-D.Thomas/J.Thomas at WR/TE
McGahee/Moreno in the back
Shotgun with Tebow.
Defense is spread out, and adjust playcalling at the line to fit what you see from the defense.
Basically close to what he was running at Florida, and he was very good at it. I know its different in the pro's, but I think he can make it work. At least worth a try IMO.

The only question I have is how many times a game do you have to option it to keep everyone honest and make that offense work. If it is 10 to 15 times a game I think it might work. If it is 25+ range like it was at Florida then we have a problem.

Tombstone RJ
10-11-2011, 10:14 AM
I think Fox and McCoy will tweak their offense to accomodate Tebow's strengths but I seriously doubt they go to a spread offense.

Every offense runs the shotgun formation. Every offense runs the shotgun formation. Let me say that one more time: every offense runs the shotgun formation.

Tebow will be given a chance to run out of the shotgun formation as did Elway under Dan Reeves. That being said, I doubt Fox will blow up his offense to run the spread because of Tebow.

Jake Dehlomme had a lot of success with Fox/McCoy. I'm pretty sure they can work with Tebow too.

Mogulseeker
10-11-2011, 10:15 AM
The only question I have is how many times a game do you have to option it to keep everyone honest and make that offense work. If it is 10 to 15 times a game I think it might work. If it is 25+ range like it was at Florida then we have a problem.

I agree, but I don't want to be seeing the option on every single play. Not at all actually. Develop Tebow's passing game, and his running game will be a by-product of his passing game - and create huge plays on the ground.

Rohirrim
10-11-2011, 10:22 AM
If Tebow proves he's the man and we don't go for Luck, maybe we could go for one of the Stanford TEs? Either Zach Ertz or Coby Fleener work for me.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-09-30/sports/30227870_1_levine-toilolo-tight-end-vista-coach-craig-bergman

Everybody see Fleener's one handed TD grab a couple of weeks ago?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/f_eAaWcaRiU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Drek
10-11-2011, 10:26 AM
12 personnel base with Fells and Thomas/Green at the TEs, Decker and Lloyd at WR, McGahee as the RB. From that you can split Thomas/Green out to give a slot look.

Moreno spells McGahee, especially on passing downs where you use Moreno much like the Gators used Harvin, stays in and carries the ball some, motions out and works as a WR some, etc..

Royal is your slot when you go to 3 WR.

Design some end arounds that get the defense biting on a Tebow designed draw when he pitches it to Royal on an end around out of the slot. McGahee, Fells, and Decker setting up blocks. That'll be a back breaker when teams start jumping to get after Tebow on running downs.

Lot of interesting trick plays you could cook up really, but a base offense that gives him TEs on each end of the line where they can either stay in to block or attack the defense vertically would be money for Tebow. His single best passing strength is his deep ball, so why wouldn't you look for ways to get Thomas or Green on a safety or linebacker 20 yards down field.

In short, something very much like what the Patriots do with Gronkowski and Hernandez.

Come the draft I spend our 1st on DT or CB, our 2nd on a MLB, and then use our 3rd on a power back type to replace McGahee long term. Then after hitting more areas of need on the defense finish the draft off by grabbing more depth for the OL and the best later round RB we can find.

barryr
10-11-2011, 10:26 AM
I think Fox and McCoy will tweak their offense to accomodate Tebow's strengths but I seriously doubt they go to a spread offense.

Every offense runs the shotgun formation. Every offense runs the shotgun formation. Let me say that one more time: every offense runs the shotgun formation.

Tebow will be given a chance to run out of the shotgun formation as did Elway under Dan Reeves. That being said, I doubt Fox will blow up his offense to run the spread because of Tebow.

Jake Dehlomme had a lot of success with Fox/McCoy. I'm pretty sure they can work with Tebow too.

Exactly! That is what I had been saying for weeks when some say that Tebow can't play under center, while watching Orton standing in the shotgun numerous times in games.

BroncoMan4ever
10-11-2011, 12:19 PM
i don't think radical changes need to be made to the offense for Tebow to be able to execute the gameplan. yes some special Tebow packages need to be inserted, meaning more play action and the occasional draw plays. but the drop back and pass from the pocket still needs to be integral. i think with more time in live game situations Tebow's pocket presence and ability to play from the pocket will improve. reading defenses, playing from the pocket, going through reads are things a QB can only learn by actually playing. i think he will start off a little rocky in these aspects but show major improvement by the end of the year.

Play2win
10-11-2011, 12:23 PM
WCO - Bronco's Style, circa 1998-1999 ;D

Popps
10-11-2011, 12:26 PM
Great thread concept.

Love Drek's ideas, as usual.

I think one question we're going to be forced to answer is whether or not Franklin is the prototypical blind-side pass-pro tackle. There has been talk of him moving to guard and bringing in someone to play the blind side.

Could Clady move over? That's got to be rough for a guy at this stage in his career. I know Tony Jones did it for us back in the day, successfully.

randomtask
10-11-2011, 12:28 PM
12 personnel base with Fells and Thomas/Green at the TEs, Decker and Lloyd at WR, McGahee as the RB. From that you can split Thomas/Green out to give a slot look.

Moreno spells McGahee, especially on passing downs where you use Moreno much like the Gators used Harvin, stays in and carries the ball some, motions out and works as a WR some, etc..

Royal is your slot when you go to 3 WR.

Design some end arounds that get the defense biting on a Tebow designed draw when he pitches it to Royal on an end around out of the slot. McGahee, Fells, and Decker setting up blocks. That'll be a back breaker when teams start jumping to get after Tebow on running downs.

Lot of interesting trick plays you could cook up really, but a base offense that gives him TEs on each end of the line where they can either stay in to block or attack the defense vertically would be money for Tebow. His single best passing strength is his deep ball, so why wouldn't you look for ways to get Thomas or Green on a safety or linebacker 20 yards down field.

In short, something very much like what the Patriots do with Gronkowski and Hernandez.

Come the draft I spend our 1st on DT or CB, our 2nd on a MLB, and then use our 3rd on a power back type to replace McGahee long term. Then after hitting more areas of need on the defense finish the draft off by grabbing more depth for the OL and the best later round RB we can find.

Just a quick question: Why Royal in the slot? We've been trying to make that work since his 2nd season, and he's been pretty ineffective at it for basically the entire time.

Rabb
10-11-2011, 12:35 PM
Just a quick question: Why Royal in the slot? We've been trying to make that work since his 2nd season, and he's been pretty ineffective at it for basically the entire time.

I am really not being a dick here, but Orton very seldom checked down that far so unless Royal was the first or second option, he wasn't seeing the ball. I am not blaming Eddie's demise on that, but it certainly was a factor IMO although he was dropping some things this year.

randomtask
10-11-2011, 12:38 PM
I am really not being a dick here, but Orton very seldom checked down that far so unless Royal was the first or second option, he wasn't seeing the ball. I am not blaming Eddie's demise on that, but it certainly was a factor IMO although he was dropping some things this year.

I hadn't really considered that. Could be.

Personally, I never thought that he looked very comfortable in the slot. His route running seemed to be much worse than his rookie year, and I thought that might be attributed to playing inside vs. outside.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 12:38 PM
12 personnel base with Fells and Thomas/Green at the TEs, Decker and Lloyd at WR, McGahee as the RB. From that you can split Thomas/Green out to give a slot look.

Moreno spells McGahee, especially on passing downs where you use Moreno much like the Gators used Harvin, stays in and carries the ball some, motions out and works as a WR some, etc..

Royal is your slot when you go to 3 WR.

Design some end arounds that get the defense biting on a Tebow designed draw when he pitches it to Royal on an end around out of the slot. McGahee, Fells, and Decker setting up blocks. That'll be a back breaker when teams start jumping to get after Tebow on running downs.

Lot of interesting trick plays you could cook up really, but a base offense that gives him TEs on each end of the line where they can either stay in to block or attack the defense vertically would be money for Tebow. His single best passing strength is his deep ball, so why wouldn't you look for ways to get Thomas or Green on a safety or linebacker 20 yards down field.

In short, something very much like what the Patriots do with Gronkowski and Hernandez.

Carolina is literally running option plays with Cam Newton.

Come the draft I spend our 1st on DT or CB, our 2nd on a MLB, and then use our 3rd on a power back type to replace McGahee long term. Then after hitting more areas of need on the defense finish the draft off by grabbing more depth for the OL and the best later round RB we can find.

Agreed, though I would just take BPA among MLB, DT, RB, and CB over the course of the whole draft.

ChrisToker
10-11-2011, 12:41 PM
best way to build around Tebow would be to trade him

Bronco Yoda
10-11-2011, 12:47 PM
I like our WR lineup when healthy. We need a big bruising RB, upgrade the right side of the line and a pass catching stud at TE.

Mogulseeker
10-11-2011, 12:48 PM
I'd like to see more slants out of the Z from Royal. Use that quickness to burst out the seam and split the safeties.

vonqkilla
10-11-2011, 12:57 PM
Trade a pick for percy harvin, get a pouncey, and fire mccoy, sign urban.

Jking.

Shotgun more, bootleg, reverses, and send a wr on a 9 route every damn play to pull the fs off the slot and te.

Done and done.

Drek
10-11-2011, 01:08 PM
Just a quick question: Why Royal in the slot? We've been trying to make that work since his 2nd season, and he's been pretty ineffective at it for basically the entire time.

Because at this point do you play him over Decker or Lloyd somewhere else?

The slot will work for Royal if he's used correctly. I just don't think we've done that.

Under McDaniels he was always an also ran because year one McDaniels designed the whole passing game around feeding Marshall the ball. Year two it was all about Gaffney and Lloyd.

Royal has been marginalized in this offense the last two years and unless he shows something in the slot he'll continue to be. We've got a lot of positions were I think we need to try some changes, but WR isn't one of them. If Royal wants to be a featured part of our offense he needs to get healthy and make some big plays.

No way you take Decker off the field at this point though. He's looked like the better receiver and is definitely a better run blocker.

randomtask
10-11-2011, 01:18 PM
Because at this point do you play him over Decker or Lloyd somewhere else?

The slot will work for Royal if he's used correctly. I just don't think we've done that.

Under McDaniels he was always an also ran because year one McDaniels designed the whole passing game around feeding Marshall the ball. Year two it was all about Gaffney and Lloyd.

Royal has been marginalized in this offense the last two years and unless he shows something in the slot he'll continue to be. We've got a lot of positions were I think we need to try some changes, but WR isn't one of them. If Royal wants to be a featured part of our offense he needs to get healthy and make some big plays.

No way you take Decker off the field at this point though. He's looked like the better receiver and is definitely a better run blocker.

Personally, I think that using Decker in the slot could have serious merit. His size difference alone against your average nickel back would cause serious problems for the defense. Combine that with the ability to catch in traffic that he displayed in college, and he is a serious weapon to consider in the slot.

Just my opinion, though.

Edit:I should note that in a base two WR formation, I would of course still have Lloyd and Decker out on the field.

gyldenlove
10-11-2011, 01:22 PM
I think we need to change a few things to really make Tebow work as well as possible, the main thing is that we need a player like Moreno who can pass block, run and catch the ball out of the backfield - basicly someone will take over the role that Harvin played at Florida. The nature of having a QB like Tebow is that you will see a lot of teams play with a spy or play zone defense and to take advantage of that you need a flexible player who can be brought in the backfield against the blitz, he can take the hand-off on draw plays and regular run plays out of single back or shotgun and who can split out wide or run into the flat and be a reciever against spy or people who play heavy zones in the middle.

As for TEs, I believe a guy like Julius Thomas is already well suited to take on the role, we need more of an athletic guy who can cause serious matchup problems for a LB which will keep the safeties honest.

For WRs, I don't think you need to change too much. The big difference of course is that Tebow is stronger when rolling to his left than to his right and naturally has his eyes to the left in quick passes so you need to flip formations that way.

Right now I would say the bigges thing we have to change is formation and play selection, with a guy like Tebow we will see more heavy fronts and that will leave the defense in cover 1 or cover 3 more often, against cover 1 you get 1 on 1 on the outside on deep routes so we need to take shots down field in those situations, specifically to Lloyd and in cover 3 you can run a lot of intermediate routes with double moves since the CB has to give up ground in front of the WR.

I wouldn't be surprised to see us end up with much more of an H-back type fullback who is more versatile and less of a lead blocker than Larsen.

strafen
10-11-2011, 01:26 PM
Between today and tomorrow, the Broncos are going to have training-camp-like practices as they prepare to adjust to Tebow as the QB.
The team will resume practive next Tuesday with a better idea what to expect with this new change.
Once the season starts, back-up QB's don't get much practice...

Drek
10-11-2011, 01:30 PM
Personally, I think that using Decker in the slot could have serious merit. His size difference alone against your average nickel back would cause serious problems for the defense. Combine that with the ability to catch in traffic that he displayed in college, and he is a serious weapon to consider in the slot.

Just my opinion, though.

Edit:I should note that in a base two WR formation, I would of course still have Lloyd and Decker out on the field.

I could see it, and he does have great short range quickness. But he's still a young player now working with a new QB, I'd be afraid of putting too much on his plate too fast if we start moving him about.

I like Royal but I see little reason to tailor our packages to fit him. I honestly think he's gone to the Redskins as soon as he's a free agent this off-season. He grew up in Alexandria, played college ball at VT, and now Mike Shanahan is running the offense where Royal found his early career success in D.C. with a need for young WRs. Its a perfect storm.

Regardless, I'd actually like to see us move away from a 3 WR set and focus more on 2 TE, 2 WR packages where our TEs are legitimate passing threats. The Patriots have built that kind of offense and it is absolutely deadly when it goes deep. That is Tebow's biggest strength, and the biggest purely philosophical change we need to make.

Que
10-11-2011, 01:54 PM
I think there are a lot of good thoughts here and i hate to simplify it by saying "do what the Packers did against us" but ya, spread 'em 4 wide and let the D pick their poison. Perhaps we can use the Jedi mind trick to get the opposing DC to pull their secondary back 10 yards and not touch a single receiver until they catch the ball.

That being said, as thrilled as I am about Tebow starting, I'm not ready to crown him QBotF. I just hope they call some plays that speak to his strengths.

Drek
10-11-2011, 04:22 PM
I think there are a lot of good thoughts here and i hate to simplify it by saying "do what the Packers did against us" but ya, spread 'em 4 wide and let the D pick their poison. Perhaps we can use the Jedi mind trick to get the opposing DC to pull their secondary back 10 yards and not touch a single receiver until they catch the ball.

That being said, as thrilled as I am about Tebow starting, I'm not ready to crown him QBotF. I just hope they call some plays that speak to his strengths.

My problem with living out of a 4 wide like the Packers love to do is that it minimizes the run game. Green Bay has big games on the ground, sure, but they don't do so consistently. It is key for Tebow to have a good ground game that he would be a part of to keep the defense on its heels and susceptible to deep passes.

That is why I'm a big fan of two TE sets, since even if Julius Thomas and Virgil Green aren't all world blocking TEs yet they're still better than WRs and they can line up next to the tackles and set edges for backs to run on.

Big, athletic TEs like Thomas and Green are going to take over the NFL in the near future. New England is showing everyone that right now with how they use Gronkowski and Hernandez. Those 6'3", 220 pound WRs exploiting 5'10", 190 pound CBs just wasn't enough for NFL offenses, now they're after 6'4" to 6'7", 250-270 pound power forwards who can out muscle and out jump any defender on the field. This is what Detroit has started to do with Brandon Pettigrew as well.

That style of play dovetails perfectly with Tebow's skills, as the TEs will help him find running lanes on designed runs, allow for some misdirection as to who is and isn't staying for pass pro on a given play, and also be able to work a defense deep where Tebow is at his best throwing the ball.

StugotsIII
10-11-2011, 04:47 PM
I've felt for a long time that the spread option offense is one of the more difficult offenses to defend....in the history of football....

Tebow could be the guy to bring it to the NFL.

NFL defense's are not built or schemed to stop it and would be caught off guard. If they were able to get the running game going....with true reads and the like, the passing game (Tebow's weakness) would open up nicely.

BroncoBuff
10-11-2011, 04:49 PM
There should be discussions of some kind about swapping Clady and Franklin.

We're paying top dollar for LT and starting a raw rookie at RT. That doesn't really fit now.



*EDIT* - saw Popps' post. Tony Jones a good comparison. Amazingly enough, he switched between the two Super Bowl years, and as I recall there was just the slightest of drop-offs from Zimmerman.

Mogulseeker
10-12-2011, 10:56 AM
There should be discussions of some kind about swapping Clady and Franklin.

We're paying top dollar for LT and starting a raw rookie at RT. That doesn't really fit now.



*EDIT* - saw Popps' post. Tony Jones a good comparison. Amazingly enough, he switched between the two Super Bowl years, and as I recall there was just the slightest of drop-offs from Zimmerman.

No way. Teams aren't going to move RDE to the left side, so it still makes sense to have out best pass blocker against their best pass rusher. Plus Clady on the left side gives us an advantage with Tebow in the run game.

Franklin is going to be a beast though.

Drek
10-12-2011, 11:28 AM
There should be discussions of some kind about swapping Clady and Franklin.

We're paying top dollar for LT and starting a raw rookie at RT. That doesn't really fit now.



*EDIT* - saw Popps' post. Tony Jones a good comparison. Amazingly enough, he switched between the two Super Bowl years, and as I recall there was just the slightest of drop-offs from Zimmerman.

Unless defenses start flipping their DEs, which historically they don't do for lefty QBs, its not really cause for concern.

Steve Sewell
10-12-2011, 01:20 PM
Make the defense have to play a lot of formations.

Spread them out in shotgun with 4 wides and a back to give Tebow lots of options in the passing game (which of course includes the option to run).

Then contract into under center with a FB, RB, 2 TE's (Thomas/Fells) and pound the **** out of them. If you want to run a pass play from this formation run designed bootlegs and rollouts, screens, and play action to the receiving TE over the middle of the field.

Most importantly, mix it up. I think Tebow can do well under center with a short passes like screens and quick outs, and he's actually been pretty accurate when going to the middle of the field to a TE. Seems like he does better on long passes such as deep outs/posts out of the shotgun where he has more time to see the field.

The #1 most important thing with Tebow is establishing a strong ground game. I think if they can establish the run, he's going to cause a lot of problems for defensive coaches.