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View Full Version : JD Walton Had A Fantastic Game Against SD


epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 01:58 AM
He flat dominated San Diego's DT in the second half. Denver ran off of Walton and Beadles several times, including McGahee's 23-yard run, Tebow's draw TD, and McGahee's 2-point conversion. Walton had his man in a box...just completely owned him (them) over and over.

Walton has come an extremely long way in a short amount of time. He was outstanding in this game.

Beadles too for that matter.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 02:14 AM
Did you notice he was crushing someone at about the 5 yard line as Moreno was going in for a TD on that screen pass.

To be able to Be 15 yards down field on a screen pass in front of the quick RB tells menus is also quick and in this case Nasty.

The Joker
10-11-2011, 03:27 AM
Yeah, I'd been meaning to start a thread about the O-Line as a whole.

They're coming on a lot, especially in the run game. San Diego have been no joke at all against the run this year and McGahee had 125 yards on only 16 carries.

Adrian Peterson managed 98 yards on the exact same number of carries, and no other runner has gone near 100 yards on them. Yet our guys really got some great push and opened up some nice holes for Willis to run through.

Hopefully they can keep this up, there'a lot of talent on that line, just a case of them putting it together as individuals and as a unit.

Sunday was encouraging though for sure.

Vegas_Bronco
10-11-2011, 05:15 AM
SD was playing not to lose on defense...we had to crack and dbl team their dline to create holes. Not a bad day...but we need to start well and beat these teams early with the run. At that point it wont matter who is under center.

Bronc62
10-11-2011, 06:00 AM
No sacks given up too, while our D got five. Only one sack given up last week playing Packers on road. Encouraging.

OrangeSe7en
10-11-2011, 06:03 AM
Still not sold.

spdirty
10-11-2011, 07:47 AM
I might rewatch to see the trenches. Glad he's starting to come around. I kinda started to give up on both. Lets hope Beadles and Walton continue to improve throughout the season.

UberBroncoMan
10-11-2011, 07:52 AM
Remember, two of these guys are only in their second year...and they had to deal with the lockout. Hopefully we have our LG, C and RT of the future in Beadles, Walton, and Franklin. Would give us a young as hell line too, which will be immensely beneficial for continuity going into next season and the one after that, etc.

fontaine
10-11-2011, 07:57 AM
It's improving, but still a long way to go.

On short yardage plays we still don't get enough push up front. I hope they bring in a vet in the offseason to compete against Beadles who's still a liability.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 07:58 AM
Beadles is the most inconsistent. Franklin has issues letting defensive linemen getting under his pads and with using his hands in general.

Also bear in mind the Chargers D line is pretty ho-hum.

Having said that, they are playing better every week. Pass pro is very good and run blocking keeps getting better. They're definitely the least of our concerns.










... and Chris Kuper is awesome. :approve:

snowspot66
10-11-2011, 08:04 AM
At the very least I'd like them to show enough that we can hold off spending a high round pick on the interior for at least one more year. We need to keep working on the defense.

Old Dude
10-11-2011, 08:11 AM
Remember, two of these guys are only in their second year...and they had to deal with the lockout. Hopefully we have our LG, C and RT of the future in Beadles, Walton, and Franklin. Would give us a young as hell line too, which will be immensely beneficial for continuity going into next season and the one after that, etc.

All true. Remember also that, due to all the injuries early last season, it took awhile for them to settle Beadles down at LG. That's also a continuity issue, because it hurts cohesion when guys are lining up next to different combinations of teammates every week.

Walton and Beadles still have plenty of room for improvement and it's going to take Franklin awhile to develop his pass-blocking skills, but they finally seem to be making progress. I think they still need some depth, but all things considered, we can probably drop this down one notch on team priorities for the 2012 draft.

fontaine
10-11-2011, 08:21 AM
Walton probably makes it as a decent center.

But Beadles is out of this league in a few years. The guy has no game.

Drek
10-11-2011, 10:13 AM
It's improving, but still a long way to go.

On short yardage plays we still don't get enough push up front. I hope they bring in a vet in the offseason to compete against Beadles who's still a liability.

We should have had those vets last year, but I suppose veteran depth two years too late is better than never at all.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 10:22 AM
Walton probably makes it as a decent center.

But Beadles is out of this league in a few years. The guy has no game.

Thats absolutely untrue and unsupported by film.

Go back and watch the game and actually watch the offensive line.

Beadles is no worse than Kuper, both of them are doing a good job and will be in Denver for the forseeable future.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 10:29 AM
Beadles is the most inconsistent.

I challenge you to make a case based on specifics (not on generalities) that Beadles is any more inconsistent than Kuper.

Franklin has issues letting defensive linemen getting under his pads and with using his hands in general.

This is an occasional problem that usually appears on passing downs. It was worse in the preseason.

Also bear in mind the Chargers D line is pretty ho-hum.

Doesn't matter. A ho-hum defense should be handled by a good player and Walton absolutely handled their DT's and linebackers.

Having said that, they are playing better every week. Pass pro is very good and run blocking keeps getting better. They're definitely the least of our concerns.

The team doesn't need to pick an offensive lineman in the first two or three rounds of the next draft. They're ready to roll for the next 5 years.

Swedish Extrovert
10-11-2011, 10:31 AM
They both had improved, but some o-lineman - he was a white dude but I forgot the number - totally whiffed on the Moreno TD. It doesn't matter because Moreno got the TD. Just sayin'.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 10:38 AM
They both had improved, but some o-lineman - he was a white dude but I forgot the number - totally whiffed on the Moreno TD. It doesn't matter because Moreno got the TD. Just sayin'.

If youre talking about the guy at the goal line, it was Walton. Walton had run down the field parallel to Moreno and actually almost got to there to make the play and missed (not completely...he got a hand on the guy) because he dove in desperation.

It was a nice play.

gyldenlove
10-11-2011, 11:15 AM
I noticed on several runs that the Beadles - Clady combination absolutely brutalized the right side of San Diegos defense, they were pushing 5-7 yards downfield.

I was surprised at how Franklin looked playing the blindside for Tebow, he did a pretty good job of forcing the pressure very wide when he got outleveraged and kept his hands on his opponent.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 11:28 AM
I challenge you to make a case based on specifics (not on generalities) that Beadles is any more inconsistent than Kuper.

I don't have time to go back through each game and list specific examples. If you do it first to refute my point, I'll consider it. The fact is that Beadles generally doesn't give very good effort, where Kuper consistently does. And Kuper rarely just lets guys go by free where Beadles has done that all season.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-11-2011, 11:35 AM
Walton probably makes it as a decent center.

But Beadles is out of this league in a few years. The guy has no game.

Do you watch Broncos games???

Beadles is a ****in stud right now.

Please fall back and shut the **** up.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 11:37 AM
I don't have time to go back through each game and list specific examples. If you do it first to refute my point, I'll consider it. The fact is that Beadles generally doesn't give very good effort, where Kuper consistently does. And Kuper rarely just lets guys go by free where Beadles has done that all season.

Beadles doesnt give effort? Not true.

Again, give some specific examples.

If I had to grade each player on the season, I would give them the same grade with a nod to Beadles given the fact that he didnt have an offseason to prepare and hes still a young player who can improve a lot.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 11:39 AM
Yeah, I'd been meaning to start a thread about the O-Line as a whole.

They're coming on a lot, especially in the run game. San Diego have been no joke at all against the run this year and McGahee had 125 yards on only 16 carries.

Adrian Peterson managed 98 yards on the exact same number of carries, and no other runner has gone near 100 yards on them. Yet our guys really got some great push and opened up some nice holes for Willis to run through.

Hopefully they can keep this up, there'a lot of talent on that line, just a case of them putting it together as individuals and as a unit.

Sunday was encouraging though for sure.

Now the defenses have another weapon to worry about.

But that also is a dual edged sword we now have less passing game than we did. So watch for them to stack the LOS more than have been.

But then the hoggs uo front would rather run block than pass protect any day. Give them a chance to hit back. In the past our oline was finese and very little nasty. Nit so with the additions of the past couple of years.
Bigger faster meaner smarter and nasty.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 11:41 AM
Beadles doesnt give effort? Not true.

Again, give some specific examples.

If I had to grade each player on the season, I would give them the same grade with a nod to Beadles given the fact that he didnt have an offseason to prepare and hes still a young player who can improve a lot.

Beadles routinely lets guys just go through. Swim moves are especially a problem for him. When he does get upfield (rarely) on running plays, he rarely makes and holds a second block at the next level. And again, if you're going to make me provide specific examples, you can't offer none. For every example you offer, I will respond in kind. But I'm not going to waste my time proving you wrong when I know you'll just dismiss it out of hand anyway.

Swedish Extrovert
10-11-2011, 11:42 AM
I don't have time to go back through each game and list specific examples. If you do it first to refute my point, I'll consider it. The fact is that Beadles generally doesn't give very good effort, where Kuper consistently does. And Kuper rarely just lets guys go by free where Beadles has done that all season.

Kuper was a mauler in the Tenn game.

broncosteven
10-11-2011, 11:43 AM
If youre talking about the guy at the goal line, it was Walton. Walton had run down the field parallel to Moreno and actually almost got to there to make the play and missed (not completely...he got a hand on the guy) because he dove in desperation.

It was a nice play.

I thought that was Kuper I don't have DVR functionality on Directv

lonestar
10-11-2011, 11:50 AM
I might rewatch to see the trenches. Glad he's starting to come around. I kinda started to give up on both. Lets hope Beadles and Walton continue to improve throughout the season.

Unless you watch the OL play you miss alot of the action.

That said. It is tuff yo come to a team that has their LOS issues we have had for a long time. we have been hammered in the RZ for over a decade and that is because the smoke and mirriors we have been playing just does not have the power inside the 5 in particular to score consistently.

Once we went away for that and got the big guys we started to get better.

That said. Last year the rookies were playing with 3 other walking wounded. For almost the entire year.

Clady coking off of knee surgery just 6 months before.
Kuper had IIRC ankle surgery in the early off season and Harris had been a waste for much of his career. Playing at close to 50% of the games he could have. Not even to mention many if those gnaws he was playing injured anyway.


Now there at very few guys like pouncey that can come in and do so well.

But then he was the only newbie playing on their OL last year.

Let me add Beadles at one time last year played at every OL spot except center. So hard tinget consistent in your blocking if you have a new guy next to you every other week.

That finally calmed down when Harris finally came back week 10 or so.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 11:53 AM
Beadles routinely lets guys just go through. Swim moves are especially a problem for him. When he does get upfield (rarely) on running plays, he rarely makes and holds a second block at the next level. And again, if you're going to make me provide specific examples, you can't offer none. For every example you offer, I will respond in kind. But I'm not going to waste my time proving you wrong when I know you'll just dismiss it out of hand anyway.

You keep making these general statements that are only true in certain cases and then trying to extrapolate them out over every play.

I gave 3 very specific plays to open the thread. Start there. Provide three very specific examples of your own.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 11:56 AM
Beadles is the most inconsistent. Franklin has issues letting defensive linemen getting under his pads and with using his hands in general.

Also bear in mind the Chargers D line is pretty ho-hum.

Having said that, they are playing better every week. Pass pro is very good and run blocking keeps getting better. They're definitely the least of our concerns.
... and Chris Kuper is awesome. :approve:

Considering that beadles played all spots on the OL last year except for center Qnd only played about 7 games at OLG at the end of the season. Just might want to give him a chance to learn the new spot for him. He played primarily OT in college and he is adjusting to the OG spot.

Is he the weak link? Yes but far from a position if worry. IMO.

Have plenty of other spits to worry about but having a couple better backups than we have now will be a great difference maker.

Rascal
10-11-2011, 11:57 AM
The o-line isn't what is inhibiting this team. Try the other trenches, especially with Vickerson being out for the year.

vonqkilla
10-11-2011, 12:21 PM
He flat dominated San Diego's DT in the second half. Denver ran off of Walton and Beadles several times, including McGahee's 23-yard run, Tebow's draw TD, and McGahee's 2-point conversion. Walton had his man in a box...just completely owned him (them) over and over.

Walton has come an extremely long way in a short amount of time. He was outstanding in this game.

Beadles too for that matter.

What is so hilarious, and ive said so many times, is you cant even say who, you just said ” the chargers dt”, lmfao.

Im not saying I can name him and them either. But what I do know is cesaire and castillo were inactive.

When we play detroit, well hopefully our wrs will be healthy.

Popps
10-11-2011, 12:23 PM
Pretty sure Walton had a great block on Tim's TD run. Need to watch again, but the blocking on that play was great.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 12:23 PM
What is so hilarious, and ive said so many times, is you cant even say who, you just said ” the chargers dt”, lmfao.

Im not saying I can name him and them either. But what I do know is cesaire and castillo were inactive.

When we play detroit, well hopefully our wrs will be healthy.

It was Garay and Liuget.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 12:24 PM
Pretty sure Walton had a great block on Tim's TD run. Need to watch again, but the blocking on that play was great.

Yes, he did. He sealed the DT and opened the hole.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 12:26 PM
Ok so I decided go back and watch every single snap to refute. I am at lunch and will finish this tomorrow, but the very first play of the game you get see waist-bending Zane Beadles flail as the defender runs right past him. The play wasn't to his side (thankfully) but I found it humorous that Drama Llama "needs evidence" that Kuper is better than Beadles and it took all of five seconds for me to find it.


By the way, on the same exact play, Kuper helps double team the nose tackle and then gets up field and locks out the linebacker too. ROFL!

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 12:29 PM
Ok so I decided go back and watch every single snap to refute. I am at lunch and will finish this tomorrow, but the very first play of the game you get see waist-bending Zane Beadles flail as the defender runs right past him. The play wasn't to his side (thankfully) but I found it humorous that Drama Llama "needs evidence" that Kuper is better than Beadles and it took all of five seconds for me to find it.


By the way, on the same exact play, Kuper helps double team the nose tackle and then gets up field and locks out the linebacker too.

Yay! One play!

randomtask
10-11-2011, 12:33 PM
Yay! One play!

Do you actually think that Beadles is playing better than Kuper or are you just being argumentative?

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 12:33 PM
I just finished the first series. Here is my summation of Beadles.

First down: Let's the guy go right past him.

Second down. Gets mauled and pushed into the ground with no movement (he does engage the defender) Kuper pancakes his guy, by the way.

Third down: Beadles lets the guy right past him doing his "reachy thingy" with not a hand on him. (and before you argue "he was washing him out of the play" I want to reiterate he wasn't even touching him) Kuper, again keeps his player in front of him and give little ground. In fact the snap shot of that play right when Orton throws is a good summation for where every lineman has been playing this year.

TheReverend
10-11-2011, 12:33 PM
Yay! One play!

1 out of 1

TerrElway
10-11-2011, 12:34 PM
Yeah. Remember how Shaun Phillips just killed Denver up front last year? He was pretty quiet Sunday. That's the line doing it's job regardless of who is up front for the Chargers. These are NFL players, they are all quality players (some higher quality than others. See DTs, Broncos, Denver) so if they manhandled anyone it shouldn't be looked down upon all that much.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 12:34 PM
Yay! One play!

Oh I'm going to do the whole game. Then I'm going to do the Bengals game. And if there is anything left of your football reputation, I'll be sure to destroy it with the Titans game.

TheReverend
10-11-2011, 12:35 PM
I just finished the first series. Here is my summation of Beadles.

First down: Let's the guy go right past him.

Second down. Gets mauled and pushed into the ground with no movement (he does engage the defender) Kuper pancakes his guy, by the way.

Third down: Beadles lets the guy right past him doing his "reachy thingy" with not a hand on him. (and before you argue "he was washing him out of the play" I want to reiterate he wasn't even touching him) Kuper, again keeps his player in front of him and give little ground. In fact the snap shot of that play right when Orton throws is a good summation for where every lineman has been playing this year.

Are you going to bother getting into how much easier it is to play next to Clady than it is to play next to a rookie in Franklin or too busy lol'ing at dramallama?

alkemical
10-11-2011, 12:35 PM
Oh I'm going to do the whole game. Then I'm going to do the Bengals game. And if there is anything left of your football reputation, I'll be sure to destroy it with the Titans game.

You communist. ;)

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 12:42 PM
Do you actually think that Beadles is playing better than Kuper or are you just being argumentative?

I think that the difference between them is marginal based on how they have performed over the course of the whole season. Kuper has had his struggles too.

The only difference is that Beadles is still developing, so he has a bit of an excuse.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 12:43 PM
Drive 2:

Down 1: Off (right) Tackle. Average on both, though the play is to Franklin's side with tight end help.

Down 2: Pass play. Beadles actually holds his own.

Down 3. Ole' Beadles! Swim move easily beats Beadles and its reachy-reachy again. Meanwhile Kuper and Franklin destroy, getting up field and sealing for a huge gain by McGahee.

Re-watching this is showing me how slow Beadles is getting off the ball and also how inept Kyle Orton is. The dude. Has a decent line and running game and somehow scared no one. I'll finish a few more plays but then I have to get back to work. So far Kuper is clearly outplaying Beadles even with a rookie tackle to work with.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 12:44 PM
Are you going to bother getting into how much easier it is to play next to Clady than it is to play next to a rookie in Franklin or too busy lol'ing at dramallama?

Thank you.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 12:55 PM
I just finished the first series. Here is my summation of Beadles.

First down: Let's the guy go right past him.

To be fair, Beadles's job is to seal the player and the player takes himself out of the play. But I would have rather Beadles have engaged him too.

Second down. Gets mauled and pushed into the ground with no movement (he does engage the defender) Kuper pancakes his guy, by the way.

I know you're trying to make a point here, but theres no need for hyperbole. The run goes right over Beadles, who seals the DT. Kuper (and McGahee) is able to pull through the gap because Beadles had provided it. Beadles ends up on the ground because that entire part of the line gets swamped.

Third down: Beadles lets the guy right past him doing his "reachy thingy" with not a hand on him. (and before you argue "he was washing him out of the play" I want to reiterate he wasn't even touching him) Kuper, again keeps his player in front of him and give little ground. In fact the snap shot of that play right when Orton throws is a good summation for where every lineman has been playing this year.

Beadles obviously got hands on the guy. Again, you're mischaracterizing the play. Kuper did alright too, but he did get pushed back into the pocket a little. Nothing really to complain about on this play. There was plenty of time and room to operate for Orton.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 01:00 PM
Down 1: Walden holds his guy one on one. Beadles has no assignment (not his fault) and looks for other body to block. Kuper is singled up and holding but Shaun Phillips beats Franklin clean, forces Orton to move off balance, throws a pick.

Series Three

Down 1: Beadles gets blown back three yards off the line of scrimmage. The defender is able to wash Beadles down the line of scrimmage (see also: "playing the piano) and attempt to tackle McGahee. Fortunately McGahee runs through the tackle. Kuper Pancakes his guy also blowing a running lane open for McGahee. Franklin Pancakes his man too, and keeps his feet (very impressive) and continues the convoy down field for nice first down run.

This play is particularly hilarious to me given what has been asserted in this thread. Basically everyone did their job except Beadles who had the defender been better would have allowed Mcgahee be tackled by a defender away from play side.

I have to get back to work, but so far there are repeated instances of Kuper out-playing Beadles. Unless there is some kind of dramatic turnaround, and Its going about like I remember, I fully expect this trend to continue.

vonqkilla
10-11-2011, 01:03 PM
Honestly, you guys are arguing over minutia. It was garbage trash des and dts they were facing.

I cant wait for jared allen vs clady!!! Woooo!!

But Suh vs JD/Kupe...

Yikes.

vonqkilla
10-11-2011, 01:06 PM
Down 1: Walden holds his guy one on one. Beadles has no assignment (not his fault) and looks for other body to block. Kuper is singled up and holding but Shaun Phillips beats Franklin clean, forces Orton to move off balance, throws a pick.

Series Three

Down 1: Beadles gets blown back three yards off the line of scrimmage. The defender is able to wash Beadles down the line of scrimmage (see also: "playing the piano) and attempt to tackle McGahee. Fortunately McGahee runs through the tackle. Kuper Pancakes his guy also blowing a running lane open for McGahee. Franklin Pancakes his man too, and keeps his feet (very impressive) and continues the convoy down field for nice first down run.

This play is particularly hilarious to me given what has been asserted in this thread. Basically everyone did their job except Beadles who had the defender been better would have allowed Mcgahee be tackled by a defender away from play side.

I have to get back to work, but so far there are repeated instances of Kuper out-playing Beadles. Unless there is some kind of dramatic turnaround, and Its going about like I remember, I fully expect this trend to continue.
I remember this play, franklin gets help from te, seals his guy, goes next level at perfet time, mauls the mlb.

Might be different, but BiG O played great.

Everyone should tweet condolences to him.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 01:18 PM
To be fair, Beadles's job is to seal the player and the player takes himself out of the play. But I would have rather Beadles have engaged him too.
You have to evaluate linemen in a vacuum. I also like to look at how guys play when the play isn't toward their side. For me its a sign of how seriously they take their job. Its also why I like to watch receivers during running plays. Many of them tip off the play because of their boredom.


I know you're trying to make a point here, but theres no need for hyperbole. The run goes right over Beadles, who seals the DT. Kuper (and McGahee) is able to pull through the gap because Beadles had provided it. Beadles ends up on the ground because that entire part of the line gets swamped.The irony in this post is awesome. Thanks for making my point.

Beadles obviously got hands on the guy. Again, you're mischaracterizing the play. Kuper did alright too, but he did get pushed back into the pocket a little. Nothing really to complain about on this play. There was plenty of time and room to operate for Orton.I see. So now as long as the play works out it doesn't matter if he gets beat or not? See this is exactly why I shouldn't have wasted my time.

Agree to disagree, Llama.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 01:18 PM
Drive 2:

Down 1: Off (right) Tackle. Average on both, though the play is to Franklin's side with tight end help.

If this was Kuper on this play, you'd have characterized it differently. Beadles pulls to the second level, engages, and takes LB 56 Butler out of the play. Kuper does a good job double teaming the DE with Franklin.

Down 2: Pass play. Beadles actually holds his own.

Beadles handles the DT, LDE pushes Kuper back to squeeze Orton a little.

Down 3. Ole' Beadles! Swim move easily beats Beadles and its reachy-reachy again. Meanwhile Kuper and Franklin destroy, getting up field and sealing for a huge gain by McGahee.

Ole? Don't you think that you are being unfair here? The player absolutely did NOT beat Beadles. The player put a good move on Beadles, who kne where the play was headed, recovered and mauled him out of the play. Franklin is the player who destroys, and they should have done well given the fact that they were double-teaming the LDE. Excellent team run blocking here.


Re-watching this is showing me how slow Beadles is getting off the ball and also how inept Kyle Orton is. The dude. Has a decent line and running game and somehow scared no one. I'll finish a few more plays but then I have to get back to work. So far Kuper is clearly outplaying Beadles even with a rookie tackle to work with.

There's 7:21 left in the first quarter and the difference between the players is marginal. Both have been pushed back. Both have delivered good second-level blocks. Both have made plays in the run game. Beadles allowed a guy through on a play where they guy took himself out of the play by making a horrible read and taking a wrong angle.

Again, you are using hyperbole to make your point.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 01:21 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 01:26 PM
Down 1: Walden holds his guy one on one. Beadles has no assignment (not his fault) and looks for other body to block. Kuper is singled up and holding but Shaun Phillips beats Franklin clean, forces Orton to move off balance, throws a pick.

Franklin destroyed. Orton ortons. Nothing more to be said.

Series Three

Down 1: Beadles gets blown back three yards off the line of scrimmage. The defender is able to wash Beadles down the line of scrimmage (see also: "playing the piano) and attempt to tackle McGahee. Fortunately McGahee runs through the tackle. Kuper Pancakes his guy also blowing a running lane open for McGahee. Franklin Pancakes his man too, and keeps his feet (very impressive) and continues the convoy down field for nice first down run.

Again, hyperbole. Beadles does get pushed, but remains engaged. Beadles' man makes a diving attempt at McGahee 3-4 yards down the field.

I have to get back to work, but so far there are repeated instances of Kuper out-playing Beadles. Unless there is some kind of dramatic turnaround, and Its going about like I remember, I fully expect this trend to continue.

Of course you do. You only see what you want. Ha!

Ray Finkle
10-11-2011, 01:29 PM
http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 01:37 PM
I see. So now as long as the play works out it doesn't matter if he gets beat or not? See this is exactly why I shouldn't have wasted my time.

When you watch linemen over the course of a game (even the best), there is a continuum of execution. Its not always perfect. There are NFL players on the other side of the line. If a player gets pushed back two steps and still provides a pocket, you live with it. 5 players doing that over the course of the game gives you a consistent level of execution that allows your offense to get in rhythm.

I figured you'd bow out because the more plays you look at, the more your tendency for hyperbole and overexaggeration become evident. Its okay to look at it unemotionally. These guys are all Broncos. We should hope that they all do well.

Chris
10-11-2011, 01:51 PM
Give up Epic

http://www.johnmayer.com/cms/uploads/images/thumb560_tumblr_l1cz5nS18F1qzmopn.png

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 02:11 PM
Give up Epic

Whats his name already has.

I have watched the OL on repeat for every game this year. While Beadles is not as consistent as Kuper, he's not doing that much worse. Kuper had a bad game that was rookie-esque. So I give Beadles the benefit of the doubt considering that he's a second-year player with a new coach without having had an offseason. However, I want them both to succeed unlike the goober who took a challenge to Kuper's "greatness" personally. Ha!

As I said earlier in the season, there have been signs of improvement from both Beadles and Walton. They continue to improve as they become more familiar with the offense.

I made the premise after game one or two that the OL looked out of synch and would improve with exposure, but were not doing horribly. I was the only person here or anywhere else making that claim.

It has held true.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 02:12 PM
Give up Epic

http://www.johnmayer.com/cms/uploads/images/thumb560_tumblr_l1cz5nS18F1qzmopn.png

Choose your excuse!

A.) It was just one play!
B.) The defender wasn't near the ball!
C.) At least he touched the guy!
D.) Khan uses hyperbole!
E.) Lie about what happened!

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 02:18 PM
Choose your excuse!

A.) It was just one play!
B.) The defender wasn't near the ball!
C.) At least he touched the guy!
D.) Khan uses hyperbole!
E.) Lie about what happened!

Did you already give up on watching the plays?

Be sure to check out the Tennessee game. You'll love that one.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 02:19 PM
"Kuper had a bad game."

LOL

Whatever Llama. You insisted I show how Beadles played poorly and I did. You responded with excuses. You have not once made a case for Kuper having a bad play, let alone a bad game. Yet you are completely ok demanding I offer proof while not feeling any need to provide your own.

Given the rep comments I've received from this thread, at least I can take solace in the fact the rest of the board knows you are clueless.

And I didn't "give up." I have a job and had to go back to work and can't waste my time arguing with you about something you very clearly have no idea what you're talking about on and aren't going to admit you're wrong on anyway.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 02:22 PM
"Kuper had a bad game."

Whatever Llama. You insisted I show how Beadles played poorly and I did. You responded with excuses. You have not once made a case for Kuper having a bad play, let alone a bad game. Yet you are completely ok demanding I offer proof while not feeling any need to provide your own.

Given the rep comments I've received from this thread, at least I can take solace in the fact the rest of the board knows you are clueless.

And I didn't "give up." I have a job and had to go back to work and can't waste my time arguing with you about something you very clearly have no idea what you're talking about on and aren't going to admit you're wrong on anyway.

Its clear that you are clueless on the subject and are too governed by your emotions to be able to handle a discussion where someone doesn't agree with you.

Edit: Actually, I wouldn't say "clueless" because at least you are actually watching the plays, even though its just in retrospect. But I don't think you understand what its like to actually play the game.

Have you ever played sports?

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 02:29 PM
Its clear that you are clueless on the subject and are too governed by your emotions to be able to handle a discussion where someone doesn't agree with you.

Have you ever played sports?

LOL You can keep changing the subject, Llama. We're done. I'm not going to waste my time. I knew it at the beginning of the thread and you proved my point. You have been completely destroyed. Your arguments that Beadles doesn't play poorly, and that he's "as good as Kuper" were patently false. Your only response is sophistry. My friends on this board have advised me not to waste my time with you, and they are right.

To answer your question, yes, Baseball, Football and Cross Country and I did my best attempt to play basketball, but even at 6'3" not even my Mother would say I really played it.

Inkana7
10-11-2011, 02:31 PM
Typical llama discussion :oyvey:

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 02:33 PM
You can keep changing the subject, Llama. We're done. I'm not going to waste my time. I knew it at the beginning of the thread and you proved my point. You have been completely destroyed. Your arguments that Beadles doesn't play poorly, and that he's "as good as Kuper" were patently false. Your only response is sophistry. My friends on this board have advised me not to waste my time with you, and they are right.

"Destroyed" Ha!

Yeah, the guy who said several weeks ago that the OL would be fine this season because they would improve over the course of the year to the point of satisfactory level of exectution has been "destroyed" by a bunch of wild hysteria and hyperbole. Hilarious!

Aw, thats sweet of your internet friends. Its good to have internet butt-patting, eh? Wipe the dirt off and get back out there, youngin'.

Don't get mad at me because I'm calling you out on your histrionics.

To answer your question, yes, Baseball, Football and Cross Country and I did my best attempt to play basketball, but even at 6'3" not even my Mother would say I really played it.

I wouldn't have guessed it by your lack of awareness of the give-and-take that happens between good players over the course of a game. Did you actually play?

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 02:38 PM
Kaylore, I thought you had to work?

All this "destroying" sure is taking up time you could have been watching plays. Ha!

alkemical
10-11-2011, 02:41 PM
llama llama duck....

Eldorado
10-11-2011, 02:43 PM
http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

http://dontclickthis.whatingods.name/shaq.jpg

DENVERDUI55
10-11-2011, 03:18 PM
Did you notice he was crushing someone at about the 5 yard line as Moreno was going in for a TD on that screen pass.

To be able to Be 15 yards down field on a screen pass in front of the quick RB tells menus is also quick and in this case Nasty.

Yeah he was one of the 2 blockers Moreno ran past and barely got into the endzone. If he would of waited for his blockers he would of walked in.

fontaine
10-11-2011, 03:21 PM
Thats absolutely untrue and unsupported by film.

Go back and watch the game and actually watch the offensive line.

Beadles is no worse than Kuper, both of them are doing a good job and will be in Denver for the forseeable future.

I don't have to go back and watch film. I usually track the OL play, have done for years. It's better than watching Orton stutter **** at QB.

Beadles was the worst OL last year, and he's the worst OL this year.

You don't have to believe me, I'm just calling it like it is. He doesn't belong on the field.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 03:24 PM
I don't have to go back and watch film. I usually track the OL play, have done for years. It's better than watching Orton stutter **** at QB.

Beadles was the worst OL last year, and he's the worst OL this year.

You don't have to believe me, I'm just calling it like it is. He doesn't belong on the field.

Oh he won't. He's emotionally invested in his opinion.

fontaine
10-11-2011, 03:32 PM
Oh he won't. He's emotionally invested in his opinion.

Drama's opinion (or lack of any coherent argument) really doesn't matter. Most the board know what he is.

The bigger problem is Beadles just doesn't play the part. Yes I understand he's still a young player but the basics have to be there to improve upon.

What I'm saying is that he doesn't have any basics. His leg drive, leverage technique, ability to handle stunts and shifts, initial pop/first step are all pretty much, well poor.

I'm not going to track his individual mistakes (and trust me there are many), anyone can go to milehighreport and there are weekly updates on OL plays, or footballfocus and it's the same. I'm not saying those sites are perfect but Beadles routinely grades out as one of the poorest Guards there also.

I hate to say it, because I'm an OL homer but Beadles is a career backup and probably out of the league in a few years.

kupesdad
10-11-2011, 04:35 PM
Drive 2:

Down 1: Off (right) Tackle. Average on both, though the play is to Franklin's side with tight end help.

Down 2: Pass play. Beadles actually holds his own.

Down 3. Ole' Beadles! Swim move easily beats Beadles and its reachy-reachy again. Meanwhile Kuper and Franklin destroy, getting up field and sealing for a huge gain by McGahee.

Re-watching this is showing me how slow Beadles is getting off the ball and also how inept Kyle Orton is. The dude. Has a decent line and running game and somehow scared no one. I'll finish a few more plays but then I have to get back to work. So far Kuper is clearly outplaying Beadles even with a rookie tackle to work with.

Lol you need to adopt him...you're doing a way better job than I ever have... I will just observe...:clown:

IHaveALight
10-11-2011, 04:58 PM
I wish there was an option to vote for a winner when two posters get into discussions like this. Sure would help some posters see how delusional they are.

1 for Kahn

TheReverend
10-11-2011, 05:23 PM
I wish there was an option to vote for a winner when two posters get into discussions like this. Sure would help some posters see how delusional they are.

1 for Kahn

That is seriously SUCH a good idea it's ridiculous.

Vegas_Bronco
10-11-2011, 05:27 PM
IF you haven't played the oline...you have no idea and should leave room for discussion. Let's take this one step at a time and realize that when a defense shifts, your blocking assignment may change. If you have to hit a hard angle to get to the shoulder of the defender, it's one hell of a job to get there turn and stand your guy up long enough for the back to come through. You basically have 2-3 seconds to move your 300lb azz up the field stop a guy and then win the battle.

It does not have to be pretty and won't ever be perfect all the time but if you do your job there should be 3.3 yards on the gain. The only basic advantage you have is a split second head start and knowing who you have to get to. Sometimes it works and other times you can get man handled. Sometimes the guy that you are suppose to tandem to the lb is long gone well before you get there on a opposite gap blitz.

You will get beat and some guys are just flat out unblockable in the right formations given your assignment. The fact that our qb had few hurries, didn't get sacked, and we racked up 100+ rushing means the Oline kicked azz - plain and simple!

FISH
10-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Khan...for clarity:

Do you contend that Beedles, up this point and as far as you can tell, is not currently and will never amount to a starting guard or that he will but would benefit from another year or so of learning?

If you think he may but needs time why not let him learn as he is? We seem to be for the most part okay...or do you feel a veteran would be better at this point?

As for the Kuper = Beedles argument....thats absurd. Kuper is far and above. Though I respect your right to express your thoughts Epic.

FISH
10-11-2011, 05:30 PM
I wish there was an option to vote for a winner when two posters get into discussions like this. Sure would help some posters see how delusional they are.

1 for Kahn

Could always post a debate thread complete with Poll.

Argument A and B can present their case and we Maners can vote...

WABronco
10-11-2011, 05:30 PM
Here's how I determine how well the OL is playing:

A) Defensive linemen in the backfield constantly (ie Titans game last year)

B) Defensive linemen not in the backfield constantly (ie this last game)

NEXT

lonestar
10-11-2011, 06:05 PM
All true. Remember also that, due to all the injuries early last season, it took awhile for them to settle Beadles down at LG. That's also a continuity issue, because it hurts cohesion when guys are lining up next to different combinations of teammates every week.

Walton and Beadles still have plenty of room for improvement and it's going to take Franklin awhile to develop his pass-blocking skills, but they finally seem to be making progress. I think they still need some depth, but all things considered, we can probably drop this down one notch on team priorities for the 2012 draft.

Damned fine post I agree 100%. Posted much the same earlier.
I Believe no earlier than #3 pick since our other needs are BIG TIME. As far as a UFA same applies.

By the end of the year I think all the kiddies will have it down pretty pat. And just be getting to know his partners moves in given situations.

Opposed to having to think about what they would do.

Thinking causes hesitation that can be overcome in college, but In the pros the speed of the Front seven is faster and rarely are there any weak sisters like there are in college.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 06:15 PM
What is so hilarious, and ive said so many times, is you cant even say who, you just said ” the chargers dt”, lmfao.

Im not saying I can name him and them either. But what I do know is cesaire and castillo were inactive.

When we play detroit, well hopefully our wrs will be healthy.

After watching their DL destroy the bears and jaysus last night that is one game I'm not looking forward to.
But then I thought the pack would eat them alive also.

DET is something special. They had 9 active DL guys last night (hope fox takes note) although not sure we have nine DL types on the roster.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 06:20 PM
Ok so I decided go back and watch every single snap to refute. I am at lunch and will finish this tomorrow, but the very first play of the game you get see waist-bending Zane Beadles flail as the defender runs right past him. The play wasn't to his side (thankfully) but I found it humorous that Drama Llama "needs evidence" that Kuper is better than Beadles and it took all of five seconds for me to find it.


By the way, on the same exact play, Kuper helps double team the nose tackle and then gets up field and locks out the linebacker too. ROFL!

Yeah let's compare a 5 year vet with what accounts to a guy tha have played the spot maybe 12 games or so in the pros.
Makes sense to me.

What did he do feel up Your sister. Pull a Hillis on Your girlfriend.

He may not be an all pro yet but he is heads above hamilton the weak link for along time.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 06:52 PM
Yeah he was one of the 2 blockers Moreno ran past and barely got into the endzone. If he would of waited for his blockers he would of walked in.

After seeing it for about the 40th time on espn (talking about Tebow) I noticed he was in a hurry there were two OL guys down field ahead of Moreno clearing a path and I do mean CLEARING.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 06:58 PM
I don't have to go back and watch film. I usually track the OL play, have done for years. It's better than watching Orton stutter **** at QB.

Beadles was the worst OL last year, and he's the worst OL this year.

You don't have to believe me, I'm just calling it like it is. He doesn't belong on the field.

Glad to know your a better judge of talent than Fox and his crew.

Last year I agree he was getting beat alot. BUT then he onky really played OLG for about 7 games as a rookie. The rest of the time he played OLT ORT ORG for parts of or total games during 2010.

How about we see after the season and see what they do they.

I suspect he is our OLG for along time so get used to it.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 07:00 PM
Oh he won't. He's emotionally invested in his opinion.

Pot kettle much.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 07:11 PM
I wish there was an option to vote for a winner when two posters get into discussions like this. Sure would help some posters see how delusional they are.

1 for Kahn

Been a member of forums of one or another going on ten years and guest me when I say.

Voting would accomplish nothing other than one side voting as ass kissing a powerful member, alining behind a friend (right or wrong post).

Myslef I do not do that like I used to because frankly I do not care if a friend is wrong I'll call them on it. Just as I do when I take on the Power P0STER Of the forum.

Have been a Member here since 03 or so under another login.

Never liked the gang mentality y'all have had.

Now I don't give a damn and NO longer get my feathers ruffled when I see it.
Knowing that the only guys that count in making decisions are the coaches and GMs. Internet bullies are just that.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 07:24 PM
IF you haven't played the oline...you have no idea and should leave room for discussion. Let's take this one step at a time and realize that when a defense shifts, your blocking assignment may change. If you have to hit a hard angle to get to the shoulder of the defender, it's one hell of a job to get there turn and stand your guy up long enough for the back to come through. You basically have 2-3 seconds to move your 300lb azz up the field stop a guy and then win the battle. It does not have to be pretty and won't ever be perfect all the time but if you do your job there should be 3.3 yards on the gain. The only basic advantage you have is a split second head start and knowing who you have to get to. Sometimes it works and other times you can get man handled. Sometimes the guy that you are suppose to tandem to the lb is long gone well before you get there on a opposite gap blitz. The fact that our qb had few hurries, didn't get sacked, and we racked up 100+ rushing means the Oline kicked azz - plain and simple!

Outstanding post. Coming from a former ORG you hit this out of the park.
I would add yes you have the advantage of knowing what the play is but at this level the DEFense also knows what your going to do most of the time.
Plus when they shift. You have to know what the guy next to you is going to do without hesitation because at this level your going to get you QB killed if you stop to think for split second.

That kind of trust and knowledge comes with exprience NEXT to each other over the years. If you look at teh great OLs and RBs you will see an OL that has been together for 2-10 years.

I look forward to seeing this OL in a couple of years especially if the keep Clady after this year.

BroncoBuff
10-11-2011, 07:38 PM
Walton has come an extremely long way in a short amount of time. He was outstanding in this game.

Beadles too for that matter.

Everything is coming up Roses ... what a difference a day makes.

Youngest offensive line in franchise history, very young at TE. WR, FB, 3rd down RB ... and now QBOTF. If you're anywhere near downtown Seattle, I'm buying !!!

WABronco
10-11-2011, 07:39 PM
Everything is coming up roses ... what a difference a day makes.

Youngest offensive line in franchise history, very young at TE. WR, FB, 3rd down RB ... and now QBOTF. If you're anywhere near downtown Seattle, I'm buying !!!

Haha very good point. I'm on Whidbey, be there in 2 hours!

BroncoBuff
10-11-2011, 07:40 PM
Excellent .... Mukilteo to downtown, it's a breeze at this hour! ;D

lonestar
10-11-2011, 07:53 PM
Everything is coming up Roses ... what a difference a day makes.

Youngest offensive line in franchise history, very young at TE. WR, FB, 3rd down RB ... and now QBOTF. If you're anywhere near downtown Seattle, I'm buying !!!

Yep the old man on the OL is 4 years and counting.

Most great OLs have that much time together side by side before they are worth a crap.

This team needed to be rebuilt a decade ago when all the HOF players hung them up.

But everyone kept saying we are reloading well I guess y'all see where that got us. ONE playoff game win since Elway retired.

And countless ass kickings over the years and everytime save one in the playoffs.

vonqkilla
10-11-2011, 08:25 PM
Chargers front seven < Alabama front sevem

Ok, not really.

Still, they suck. Tebow with a full week of reps would have run for 100 over 4 qtrs.

Miami is gonna get throttled as long as we keep from minus 3 in turnovers. Im thinking 200 yards total on the ground, 240 air.

Franklin with family at the game, fla day, bye week rest. Broncos minus 10 baby. Ground and pound. We are going to kill more dolphins than the japanese and tuna nets combined.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 09:13 PM
Khan...for clarity:

Do you contend that Beedles, up this point and as far as you can tell, is not currently and will never amount to a starting guard or that he will but would benefit from another year or so of learning?

If you think he may but needs time why not let him learn as he is? We seem to be for the most part okay...or do you feel a veteran would be better at this point?

As for the Kuper = Beedles argument....thats absurd. Kuper is far and above. Though I respect your right to express your thoughts Epic.

I would defer to my original post:

Beadles is the most inconsistent. Franklin has issues letting defensive linemen getting under his pads and with using his hands in general.

Also bear in mind the Chargers D line is pretty ho-hum.

Having said that, they are playing better every week. Pass pro is very good and run blocking keeps getting better. They're definitely the least of our concerns.

The talent is there. The consistency is not. I wouldn't agree with others who have suggested he'll wash out of the league sooner than later, but I definitely think he could play better. In the OM Podcast I have been most critical of his inconsistency. And of course we expect growing pains, especially now that they are actually trying to run the ball and showing improvement week to week.

I was mostly responding to DramaLlama dropping ludicrous statements, offering absolutely no evidence for them and then hilariously turning around and demanding everyone else prove why he's wrong. Then dismissing said evidence with sophistry and changing the subject to what sports I played. It was beyond stupid and not worth my time.

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 09:15 PM
Yeah let's compare a 5 year vet with what accounts to a guy tha have played the spot maybe 12 games or so in the pros.
Makes sense to me.

What did he do feel up Your sister. Pull a Hillis on Your girlfriend.

He may not be an all pro yet but he is heads above hamilton the weak link for along time.

I don't hate Beadles. And you're making my point. It is absurd to expect Beadles to be even close to Kuper's level. I wasn't the one saying he was, though.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:25 PM
I don't hate Beadles. And you're making my point. It is absurd to expect Beadles to be even close to Kuper's level. I wasn't the one saying he was, though.

Yet every post you made compared the two singing praises of how great Kuper was.. and how Beadles was getting crushed..

MAybe I missed something, but that was how I read it..

Inkana7
10-11-2011, 09:29 PM
Yet every post you made compared the two singing praises of how great Kuper was.. and how Beadles was getting crushed..

MAybe I missed something, but that was how I read it..

You did miss something. Llama erroneously claimed that Beadles was doing just as well as Beadles, a claim which Kaylore refuted.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:45 PM
You did miss something. Llama erroneously claimed that Beadles was doing just as well as Beadles, a claim which Kaylore refuted.

I could care less who started it.. I just saw the love affair he was having with Kuper, while he is a pretty damned good player, still a 5 year vet compared to a guy that has about 12 actual games at his position in the NFL..

IIRC Kuper was not all that great in his first 12 games.. Better than most, but I remember him getting his ass handed to him a few times a game..

Now he is a good ORG, had some had their way like some here now on Beadles, Kuper would be playing in OAK kicking our pathetic DL ass week after week.

SO NO I did not miss anything..

Requiem
10-11-2011, 11:20 PM
Break him, Kaylore.

BroncoBuff
10-11-2011, 11:29 PM
Break him old school.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 11:45 PM
Break him, Kaylore.

once a dream always a dream..

fontaine
10-12-2011, 02:10 AM
Glad to know your a better judge of talent than Fox and his crew.

Last year I agree he was getting beat alot. BUT then he onky really played OLG for about 7 games as a rookie. The rest of the time he played OLT ORT ORG for parts of or total games during 2010.

How about we see after the season and see what they do they.

I suspect he is our OLG for along time so get used to it.

I don't claim to be any kind of judge of talent for the OL, and like I've said I don't really care if others have a different view/opinion. That's all fine.

The argument for Beadles seems to be that he's young, still learning, has had to move/switch positions etc and all that.

That's all fine.

I don't pretend to know about individual assignments/shifts etc and haven't made any posts claiming such.

My judgement on Beadles purely comes down to whether he can do the Basics right consistently, which has to be there if you want to improve which are independant of who you're taking on, individual schemes etc.

A good quick step, consistent bend, violence in his hand snap/punches, violence in the way he engages his guy and gets leverage, whether he keeps his feet underneath him when steering defenders or on the move, and violence in how he counters swim/club etc moves.

The physical basics aren't there consistently. So OL that aren't maulers and physically gifted guys survive in the trenches by mentally being superior players, i.e. guys like Ben Hamilton. This is where knowing assignments on pulling etc, shifts/stunts/twists etc helps but in my opinion and I could easily be wrong because of what I've said earlier, Beadles struggles with those as well.

Maybe he completely turns it around this season, but I'm skeptical because the basics aren't there.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 02:21 AM
IF you haven't played the oline...you have no idea and should leave room for discussion. Let's take this one step at a time and realize that when a defense shifts, your blocking assignment may change. If you have to hit a hard angle to get to the shoulder of the defender, it's one hell of a job to get there turn and stand your guy up long enough for the back to come through. You basically have 2-3 seconds to move your 300lb azz up the field stop a guy and then win the battle.


False. You think scouts/coaches that judge OL players in the draft or NFL have all played along the OL? You think DL coaches/DCs who have to gameplan and target weakenesses along the OL have to be former OL themselves.

And sometimes former OL themselves are pretty much biased clowns. That writer from SI (Zimmerman?) who's on the Hall of Fame committee routinely criticized and ignored Denver's stellar OL play because he didn't like the ZBS scheme.

You think Lepsis has even a remote chance to be even considered as a Hall of Fame player even though he moved from TE, RT to LT in a long stellar career paving the way for 1000 yard rushers with idiots like that on the panel?

The fact that our qb had few hurries, didn't get sacked, and we racked up 100+ rushing means the Oline kicked azz - plain and simple!

Again false. KC is a great example of this. They made a living running off Brian Waters/Roaf for years when the rest of their line (especially Center when they were without Weigmann) wasn't great individually, but Waters/Roaf pretty much played like an all pro every year.

Same with Denver, we were still a top 10 running team with average to mediocre players like Salaam, Pears, Coop etc because we always had two other guys that were crushing like Lepsis/Nalen.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 04:30 AM
Down 1: Walden holds his guy one on one. Beadles has no assignment (not his fault) and looks for other body to block. Kuper is singled up and holding but Shaun Phillips beats Franklin clean, forces Orton to move off balance, throws a pick.

Series Three

Down 1: Beadles gets blown back three yards off the line of scrimmage. The defender is able to wash Beadles down the line of scrimmage (see also: "playing the piano) and attempt to tackle McGahee. Fortunately McGahee runs through the tackle. Kuper Pancakes his guy also blowing a running lane open for McGahee. Franklin Pancakes his man too, and keeps his feet (very impressive) and continues the convoy down field for nice first down run.

This play is particularly hilarious to me given what has been asserted in this thread. Basically everyone did their job except Beadles who had the defender been better would have allowed Mcgahee be tackled by a defender away from play side.

I have to get back to work, but so far there are repeated instances of Kuper out-playing Beadles. Unless there is some kind of dramatic turnaround, and Its going about like I remember, I fully expect this trend to continue.

Yes, this is the play you're talking about.

Notice how Beadles is the ONLY OL getting blown into the backfield and how the rest had pushed their way 1-2 yards downfield.

So far I had 3 negative plays out of 8(or 9) for Beadles.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 04:40 AM
Ok so I decided go back and watch every single snap to refute. I am at lunch and will finish this tomorrow, but the very first play of the game you get see waist-bending Zane Beadles flail as the defender runs right past him. The play wasn't to his side (thankfully) but I found it humorous that Drama Llama "needs evidence" that Kuper is better than Beadles and it took all of five seconds for me to find it.


By the way, on the same exact play, Kuper helps double team the nose tackle and then gets up field and locks out the linebacker too. ROFL!

Correct again.

The rest of the OL is on their way towards re-establishing the line of scrimmage 1-2 yards downfield while Beadles completely whiffs on his block.

That wasn't on a complex stunt/twist of shifting along the DL and not when Beadles was tired late in the game or injured. Just a routine play.

That makes 3 negative plays (don't have time to upload the 3rd one) in the first three drives out of a total of 8-9 plays.

Willis McGahee is the unsung hero here. He still hits the hole hard but on many of his runs I've seen him not trust Beadles and changing his angle to the right side instead.

That's the kind of common sense vision Moreno completely lacks.

I have no way of proving this but I'm willing to bet McGahee's first key when he gets the ball is to see what Beadles is doing and avoid running in that direction. Especially in this game, I saw McGahee routinely alter the direction of this run from up the middle to right side where he had a lot of success.

You can't coach that kind of vision.

TheReverend
10-12-2011, 05:03 AM
Pot kettle much.

Congrats on 8 consecutive posts spanning over an hour...

fontaine
10-12-2011, 05:08 AM
Here's drive 4 (one where Tebow comes in for a play)

2nd down: The defender engages Clady for a second then moves inside the a gap where Beadles completely fails to adjust and pick him up.

I can't blame this all on Beadles though, Orton was well and truely in stutter f__k mode and held onto the ball too long.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 05:13 AM
3rd down:

Beadles gets no foot movement and just lunges at his man with a lame two fist punch, the defender just brushes him aside and Beadles loses all balance and flops over, causing Orton to leave the pocket and throw on the run.

I've lost track, that's what 5 negative plays in 4 short drives?

That's why I've said that with this many individual glaring errors and lack of basics consistently I can't see Beadles lasting long in this league.

This is why Tebow makes us a better offense. When we do have defenders getting into the backfield, they will ALWAYS leave a gap behind and Tebow is fast enough and strong enough to always exploit it if the passing option isn't there.

ps I wouldn't want to be Beadles in the film room this week going over last week's game.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 05:28 AM
Next set of downs on the same drive:

1st down, ZB play where Walton engages the NT and Beadles just has to block his zone.

Except Beadles trips over and falls. The only OL to actually fall down where staying on your feet is the most important criteria.

23 sees a wall of defenders in front of him as a result but the right side of the OL did a good enough job to let him take it outside.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 05:36 AM
2nd down: Beadles does a good job of getting leverage and underneath the defenders pads and blocking him out without losing ground. Good job.

3rd down: Back to his bad play. The DE just blows Beadles back off the snap 4 yards into the backfield. Beadles is the only OL that gives up that much real estate.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 05:40 AM
I'm not doing all of this to crucify the guy. I had hoped Beadles would get better after last year's struggles on the right side to a more natural position at LG but that's simply not the case.

A veteran Guard that can come in and compete is a top priority for the offseason.

Beadles is versatile enough to be the backup at most positions other than Center and IMO that's where he should be until he can show genuine improvement.

BroncoBuff
10-12-2011, 05:51 AM
A veteran Guard that can come in and compete is a top priority for the offseason.

Beadles is versatile enough to be the backup at most positions other than Center and IMO that's where he should be until he can show genuine improvement.

Great stuff, that was very informative ... excellent in-depth analysis.

Thanks guys (actually thanks fontaine and Khan ... epic not so much).

fontaine
10-12-2011, 06:18 AM
Just one more:

the 4th drive finished up, Beadles did ok in the next set of downs.

5th drive:

1st down: the OLB goes out side and Clady does a great job of completely steering him out of the play.

Beadles engages the DE who bull rushes him back 5 yards then swims to get free and go for Orton who runs like a girl towards the right sideline and throws it away.

No leg drive, no leverage, and out muscled 5 yards deep into the back field. The rest of the line do a good job keeping a firm pocket but poor play from Beadles and Orton hanging onto the ball doom this play.

Just to put it into perspective. Beadles was mostly lined up against 94, a 300 lb first round rookie. Not a 330 lb veteran beast like Seymour etc. But a talented rookie.

alkemical
10-12-2011, 06:24 AM
Well, I think that about does it folks. Thanks for coming by!

Drek
10-12-2011, 06:28 AM
I'm not doing all of this to crucify the guy. I had hoped Beadles would get better after last year's struggles on the right side to a more natural position at LG but that's simply not the case.

A veteran Guard that can come in and compete is a top priority for the offseason.

Beadles is versatile enough to be the backup at most positions other than Center and IMO that's where he should be until he can show genuine improvement.

Thing is, Beadles hasn't played OG regularly since he was a freshman in college. Then he gets here and we use him as a LT/RT stop gap for the majority of his rookie season, including his only real camp. He didn't move to guard until mid-November last year.

Is his best chance to start in the NFL as a guard? Sure. But its definitely not his natural position.

I'm not making excuses for Beadles and I've said we needed veteran competition for him (and Walton) since almost the day we drafted them. But Beadles still has a ton of room for growth. If we can add a standout LG and make him into a super utility backup though? That would be very good as well.

oubronco
10-12-2011, 06:33 AM
Excellent fontaine

fontaine
10-12-2011, 06:39 AM
Thing is, Beadles hasn't played OG regularly since he was a freshman in college. Then he gets here and we use him as a LT/RT stop gap for the majority of his rookie season, including his only real camp. He didn't move to guard until mid-November last year.

Is his best chance to start in the NFL as a guard? Sure. But its definitely not his natural position.

I'm not making excuses for Beadles and I've said we needed veteran competition for him (and Walton) since almost the day we drafted them. But Beadles still has a ton of room for growth. If we can add a standout LG and make him into a super utility backup though? That would be very good as well.

Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I just believe in order to improve, you've got to have some kind of basics to improve upon.

From what I'm seeing, he doesn't.

2-3 negative plays a game is okay, even good depending on the opposition/situation.

5+ negative plays in one half of football is unaccepteable.

Rewind the clock back two years and Beadles showed the same negatives (in the senior bowl I think, I could be wrong about the game) when put up against the nations better defenders in the draft.

Again, anything can happen, maybe he completely turns it around ( I hope so ), but the current trend and his previous history doesn't indicate so.

EDIT: To be fair to Beadles, he did have two monster games last year where he didn't just play well but dominated. Both against KC I think.

Kaylore
10-12-2011, 06:42 AM
Excellent fontaine

Absolut outstand. This really goes back to what I've been saying. Beadles shows flashes and then will just completely break down and miss. To me it looks to be more technique than talent, which is good and bad but generally speaking, inconsistency has a decent shot of being ironed out with time. Like I've been saying on Taco's podcast, I still think it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring in some competition at guard. Sometimes a complete lack of competent depth can create complacency and some competition will amp up the effort of everyone.

Kaylore
10-12-2011, 06:48 AM
Break him, Kaylore.

I don't need to. He has no idea what's going on and we would spend two pages arguing the same things.

Drek
10-12-2011, 07:08 AM
Absolut outstand. This really goes back to what I've been saying. Beadles shows flashes and then will just completely break down and miss. To me it looks to be more technique than talent, which is good and bad but generally speaking, inconsistency has a decent shot of being ironed out with time. Like I've been saying on Taco's podcast, I still think it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring in some competition at guard. Sometimes a complete lack of competent depth can create complacency and some competition will amp up the effort of everyone.

This is my point on Beadles. The talent is there, he might grow into a real contributor given time, but obviously he's not there yet.

Which is why I've been championing the need for line depth for a few years now. If Beadles was a super-sub these past two years with an established vet in front of him he wouldn't be judged nearly as harshly, be given the 2-3 years of high quality coaching he needs to learn OG, and then step in as a starter when the technique matches the talent.

He's a worthwhile building block to the OL. Whether that is as a starter or as the 6th man has yet to be determined.

vonqkilla
10-12-2011, 07:11 AM
Fontaine

1. Thanks for taking the time

2. Great analysis

3. Whats the solution?

Drek
10-12-2011, 07:24 AM
Fontaine

1. Thanks for taking the time

2. Great analysis

3. Whats the solution?

It was great analysis, and he already said the solution. Get a veteran starter to push Beadles. Either push him to improve and be more consistent or push him to the bench.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 07:39 AM
Fontaine

1. Thanks for taking the time

2. Great analysis

3. Whats the solution?

You're welcome.

Solutions? I'm not an expert, never claimed to be. It's up to the OL coach/Beadles to get that done.

But I defer to others who have hinted at it.

1. Get a veteran in the offseason to compete against.

2. Improved Technique. Physically, Beadles doesn't have the quick feet, strength/size combo (that's why he was projected inside at G even though he played LT in Utah). So players that have limitations on their physical ability survive in the league by mentally knowing the plays inside out, their assignments, and the opposition. We've had great examples in the past like Ben Hamilton that fit this mod, plus he was technically great.

BowlenBall
10-12-2011, 07:59 AM
This thread is what makes this message board so great -- very nice posts, gentlemen, and way to back up an argument with solid analysis.

My two cents -- I think we all need to be somewhat patient with Mr. Beadles. it's not his fault that Josh McDaniels overdrafted him, and if he'd been taken in the 4th round instead of the 2nd, we'd all be pretty excited about his performance so far (19 starts in 21 career games). Give him another year, and he'll be a solid, average guard in the NFL.

ColoradoDarin
10-12-2011, 08:44 AM
JD had a great game, he's really improved in just this season alone. I really wish he had an entire off season to work with Magazu. I was so high on him prior to the draft, he was a pancake machine at Baylor. (Mags coached probowl C and T for Carolina)

I'd like to see how Beadles progresses the rest of the year. They should get a good feel whether he can develop into a solid starter or we should go a different direction. And Franklin too, I could see us moving Franklin back to G and bringing in a new RT (though Franklin has done pretty well for a rookie and moved to RT, just throwing out an option here). If nothing else, we bring in a vet or draft a new LG and Beadles will provide depth across the line.

FISH
10-12-2011, 08:47 AM
It was great analysis, and he already said the solution. Get a veteran starter to push Beadles. Either push him to improve and be more consistent or push him to the bench.

Agreed! Lets start a petition....

Kaylore
10-12-2011, 09:23 AM
Agreed! Lets start a petition....

LOL

IHaveALight
10-12-2011, 10:11 AM
Agreed! Lets start a petition....

Child's play. We need to start chanting Russ at the stadium, and look into getting a billboard.

bowtown
10-12-2011, 10:18 AM
Child's play. We need to start chanting Russ at the stadium, and look into getting a billboard.

IMO, we should be taking a look at that young Paxton kid. Anyone who can snap a ball that effortlessly, is worth a look at any position IMO.

FISH
10-12-2011, 10:37 AM
This is nonsense. I petition that every player move be subject to orange mane voting. Its the only way to be sure.

pricejj
10-12-2011, 10:54 AM
Fontaine

1. Thanks for taking the time

2. Great analysis

3. Whats the solution?

IF Tebow and the Broncos can somehow go 5-6 or better...draft RT/OG (Matt Kalil, or Cordy Glenn), then have Orlando Franklin either go back to his natural position LG (if we draft Kalil), or stay at RT (if we draft Glenn).

...if Tebow and the Broncos go 4-7, or worse, Broncos are drafting in top 10 and probably take a QB.

GO BRONCOS

pricejj
10-12-2011, 11:02 AM
At the very least I'd like them to show enough that we can hold off spending a high round pick on the interior for at least one more year. We need to keep working on the defense.

This is a very poor draft for Defensive front 7...Only guy worthy of a top 12 selection is Burfict. Unless you want to go CB, which I think is a wasted pick in the high 1st round.

Requiem
10-12-2011, 11:16 AM
I don't need to. He has no idea what's going on and we would spend two pages arguing the same things.

But you could crush him!

http://www.skuggen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/stephen_hawking.jpg

lonestar
10-12-2011, 11:17 AM
I don't claim to be any kind of judge of talent for the OL, and like I've said I don't really care if others have a different view/opinion. That's all fine.

The argument for Beadles seems to be that he's young, still learning, has had to move/switch positions etc and all that.

That's all fine.

I don't pretend to know about individual assignments/shifts etc and haven't made any posts claiming such.

My judgement on Beadles purely comes down to whether he can do the Basics right consistently, which has to be there if you want to improve which are independant of who you're taking on, individual schemes etc.

A good quick step, consistent bend, violence in his hand snap/punches, violence in the way he engages his guy and gets leverage, whether he keeps his feet underneath him when steering defenders or on the move, and violence in how he counters swim/club etc moves.

The physical basics aren't there consistently. So OL that aren't maulers and physically gifted guys survive in the trenches by mentally being superior players, i.e. guys like Ben Hamilton. This is where knowing assignments on pulling etc, shifts/stunts/twists etc helps but in my opinion and I could easily be wrong because of what I've said earlier, Beadles struggles with those as well.

Maybe he completely turns it around this season, but I'm skeptical because the basics aren't there.

YOUR COMMENT ABOUT HAMILTON WELL IS SILLY IMO, I WATCHED THIS CLOWN GET PUSHED BACK INTO THE POCKET FOR YEARS LIKE HE WAS ON SKATES..WHILE IN PASS PROTECT..

Sorry about that did not mean to cap is all just not a good enough typist to waste time changing it..

Hamilton was the uber weak link in that OL for years. the only reason IMO he was kept around as he was verstile, cheap and the heir apparant to Nalen..

please do Not use hamilton as a standard of excellence..

mikey used a lot of "seconds'" and maybe even thirds to fill out his OL becasue using the ZBS it allowed him to join weak links at teh hips for running the ball almost any DT or DE when double or triple teamed is going to give up space .

But we all know that we sucked hind TEAT inside the red zone and inside the five was an automatic FG for elam at about 20 yards..

Pass rpotect was realy bad in a pocke t mode but then for a long time we had Jake rolling out so again he was masked from seeign his weaknesses..

Requiem
10-12-2011, 11:18 AM
This is a very poor draft for Defensive front 7...Only guy worthy of a top 12 selection is Burfict. Unless you want to go CB, which I think is a wasted pick in the high 1st round.


LOL.

Burfict at 12? When he isn't even the best eligible ILB? Hilarious!

pricejj
10-12-2011, 11:31 AM
LOL.

Burfict at 12? When he isn't even the best eligible ILB? Hilarious!

Burfict is the only Defensive front 7 I have going in the top 12...not because he is truly deserving...but because this draft really sucks...only guys I have worthy of top 12 are:

1. Andrew Luck - QB
2. Matt Barkley - QB
3. Matt Kalil - LT
4. Robert Griffin - QB
5. Trent Richardson - RB
7. Landry Jones - QB
8. Michael Floyd - WR
9. Jonathan Martin - LT
10. Vontaze Burfict - ILB
11. Justin Blackmon - WR
12. Dre Kirkpatrick - CB

For the Broncos to get value, they will need to either draft a QB (hope not), OL (replace Beadles), or Richardson RB.

Drek
10-12-2011, 11:41 AM
So no Jared Crick huh?

bowtown
10-12-2011, 11:51 AM
So no Jared Crick huh?

And no Quinton Coples?

TheReverend
10-12-2011, 11:55 AM
And no Quinton Coples?

That's a bigger surprise to me.

**** Crick Ha!

fontaine
10-12-2011, 12:15 PM
I'd like to see how Beadles progresses the rest of the year. They should get a good feel whether he can develop into a solid starter or we should go a different direction. And Franklin too, I could see us moving Franklin back to G and bringing in a new RT (though Franklin has done pretty well for a rookie and moved to RT, just throwing out an option here). If nothing else, we bring in a vet or draft a new LG and Beadles will provide depth across the line.

It's an interesting thought, but moving Franklin inside would be wasting his great footspeed.

For a guy his size, Franklin gets awesome bend and his footwork is really impressive. He's really only had trouble dealing with very good speed rushers, but then again who doesn't?

I haven't focussed on Franklin all that much, but Denver did something interesting this game where they used Clark as an extra blocker outside Franklin (instead of a strong side TE) and we got a lot of push that way.

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 12:24 PM
I don't need to. He has no idea what's going on and we would spend two pages arguing the same things.

Goodness, are you still spilling douche in here?

Did you get enough internet butt patting? I hope so.

fontaine
10-12-2011, 12:25 PM
YOUR COMMENT ABOUT HAMILTON WELL IS SILLY IMO, I WATCHED THIS CLOWN GET PUSHED BACK INTO THE POCKET FOR YEARS LIKE HE WAS ON SKATES..WHILE IN PASS PROTECT..

Sorry about that did not mean to cap is all just not a good enough typist to waste time changing it..

Hamilton was the uber weak link in that OL for years. the only reason IMO he was kept around as he was verstile, cheap and the heir apparant to Nalen..

please do Not use hamilton as a standard of excellence..

mikey used a lot of "seconds'" and maybe even thirds to fill out his OL becasue using the ZBS it allowed him to join weak links at teh hips for running the ball almost any DT or DE when double or triple teamed is going to give up space .

But we all know that we sucked hind TEAT inside the red zone and inside the five was an automatic FG for elam at about 20 yards..

Pass rpotect was realy bad in a pocke t mode but then for a long time we had Jake rolling out so again he was masked from seeign his weaknesses..

Yes Hamilton struggled against the bull rush from 320+ lb DTs. Who doesn't?

My point about Hamilton isn't that he was great. It was that he excelled in one area (being technically very good) which compensated for lack of raw strength. It's rare to have OL that are both physically dominant and mentally/technically strong.

I defended Hamilton here when he was unfairly criticized for the one area of weakeness in his game. In the season end summary Shanahan sometimes mentioned who the top/most consistent OL would be and Hamilton got the nod twice.

And as far as the red zone struggles go, yes we were usually better at racking up yards than TDs in the red zone but we were still miles better than the garbage we threw out on the field the last two years.

A young Ben Hamilton would walk straight into LG and immediately do a far superior job than Beadles.

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Burfict is the only Defensive front 7 I have going in the top 12...not because he is truly deserving...but because this draft really sucks...only guys I have worthy of top 12 are:

1. Andrew Luck - QB
2. Matt Barkley - QB
3. Matt Kalil - LT
4. Robert Griffin - QB
5. Trent Richardson - RB
7. Landry Jones - QB
8. Michael Floyd - WR
9. Jonathan Martin - LT
10. Vontaze Burfict - ILB
11. Justin Blackmon - WR
12. Dre Kirkpatrick - CB

For the Broncos to get value, they will need to either draft a QB (hope not), OL (replace Beadles), or Richardson RB.

Ingram from South Carolina is getting better and better every game.

The draft boards at the end of the year look a lot different than the ones during the middle of it.

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 12:27 PM
I haven't focussed on Franklin all that much, but Denver did something interesting this game where they used Clark as an extra blocker outside Franklin (instead of a strong side TE) and we got a lot of push that way.

They've been doing that all year.

broncosteven
10-12-2011, 12:33 PM
Oh I'm going to do the whole game. Then I'm going to do the Bengals game. And if there is anything left of your football reputation, I'll be sure to destroy it with the Titans game.

He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him! I'll chase him 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round Perdition's flames before I give him up!

BroncoBuff
10-12-2011, 12:37 PM
Hamilton was strictly a ZBS guy,an Alex Gibbs guy. When Josh cam in with the drive blocking, I was surprised every week when Ben stayed on top the depth chart. Wasn't pretty how he was getting pushed back.

Actually Gibbs brought Hamilton to Seattle last season ... Gibbs retired just before the regular season started, and Hamilton went from starter to backup to IR to retirement.

Kaylore
10-12-2011, 12:37 PM
Goodness, are you still spilling douche in here?

Did you get enough internet butt patting? I hope so.

Not nearly as much as you were completely crushed. I especially liked the screen shots simultaneously proving my point and ruining yours. :yayaya:

fontaine
10-12-2011, 12:41 PM
They've been doing that all year.

Cool, didn't notice him the first few weeks but he stood out this game.

BroncoBuff
10-12-2011, 12:41 PM
You broke him Khan ... you broke him old school.

Bronco Yoda
10-12-2011, 12:46 PM
Not nearly as much as you were completely crushed. I especially liked the screen shots simultaneously proving my point and ruining yours. :yayaya:

^5

lonestar
10-12-2011, 12:47 PM
Burfict is the only Defensive front 7 I have going in the top 12...not because he is truly deserving...but because this draft really sucks...only guys I have worthy of top 12 are:

1. Andrew Luck - QB
2. Matt Barkley - QB
3. Matt Kalil - LT
4. Robert Griffin - QB
5. Trent Richardson - RB
7. Landry Jones - QB
8. Michael Floyd - WR
9. Jonathan Martin - LT
10. Vontaze Burfict - ILB
11. Justin Blackmon - WR
12. Dre Kirkpatrick - CB

For the Broncos to get value, they will need to either draft a QB (hope not), OL (replace Beadles), or Richardson RB.


or trade back for more picks in the second round

As hurting as this team is for back up/ depth players you can't tell me that we can't find 4-5 of them..

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Not nearly as much as you were completely crushed. I especially liked the screen shots simultaneously proving my point and ruining yours.

You didn't prove any point. The only thing that was crushed was the egg that you ovulated.

You got your panties in a wad because I dared say that Kuper wasn't playing much better than Beadles. Then you threw a fit on the floor like a two-year old getting her blankie taken away. Ha!

You were so wrapped up in your premenstrual indignity that you didn't even comprehend what the premise was.

My girlfriend takes Midol. You want me to send you some?

lonestar
10-12-2011, 12:58 PM
Yes Hamilton struggled against the bull rush from 320+ lb DTs. Who doesn't?

My point about Hamilton isn't that he was great. It was that he excelled in one area (being technically very good) which compensated for lack of raw strength. It's rare to have OL that are both physically dominant and mentally/technically strong.

I defended Hamilton here when he was unfairly criticized for the one area of weakeness in his game. In the season end summary Shanahan sometimes mentioned who the top/most consistent OL would be and Hamilton got the nod twice.

And as far as the red zone struggles go, yes we were usually better at racking up yards than TDs in the red zone but we were still miles better than the garbage we threw out on the field the last two years.

A young Ben Hamilton would walk straight into LG and immediately do a far superior job than Beadles.

OH I can see that anything Josh did was bad..

well he used mikeys oline in 09 becasue it was rated so high "#2" if memory serves correct but then we all saw that the almighty Dennison did not know squat about anything not ZBS.. not to mention the oline sucked at PBS something so basic you learn that in Pee wee.

Unless hamilton had help in pass blocking it was a pressure or sack..

So now your cirtizing Beadles who has played all of maybe 12 games at OG for not being as good as 9 year vet in hamilton which BTW is not in teh NFL anymore IIRC.

I liked the guy but if your goning to beleive all taht mikey had to say.. Well then I have some Ocean front nice white sandy beach property for sale in El Paso..

Dream on about hamilton taking the job away from Beadles at this point.. as a rookie he did not even play.. and at 285 he would be eaten alive one on one in todays NFL.. and frankly the 285 was probably before any heavy duty playing time and after a huge meal..

lonestar
10-12-2011, 01:02 PM
Hamilton was strictly a ZBS guy,an Alex Gibbs guy. When Josh came in with the drive blocking, I was surprised every week when Ben stayed on top the depth chart. Wasn't pretty how he was getting pushed back.

Actually Gibbs brought Hamilton to Seattle last season ... Gibbs retired just before the regular season started, and Hamilton went from starter to backup to IR to retirement.


in a heart beat once his ZBS has been exposed he was worthless as a teat on a boar..


I firmly beleive that Josh was more or less pressured to keep Dennison Bobby T and the Ol in tact untill he could prove theycould not PBS, but nte one of the first guys Josh requited from NE was Hochstien, probably knowing that hamilton would not hack it..

lonestar
10-12-2011, 01:05 PM
Kaylore
Not nearly as much as you were completely crushed. I especially liked the screen shots simultaneously proving my point and ruining yours.

You didn't prove any point. The only thing that was crushed was the egg that you ovulated.

You got your panties in a wad because I dared say that Kuper wasn't playing much better than Beadles. Then you threw a fit on the floor like a two-year old getting her blankie taken away. Ha!

You were so wrapped up in your premenstrual indignity that you didn't even comprehend what the premise was.

My girlfriend takes Midol. You want me to send you some?


Wow one of the reasons I was lurking all of those years because of the love affiars Y'all have with yourselves..


Y'all have to measure Penis's in every post?

vonqkilla
10-12-2011, 01:07 PM
So this thread was awesome, lets get back to awesome.

Talk Clady!!

The last play of the game displayed his power and quickness, he shoved his assignment playing 9 technique so far upfield, 15 spins around like uh oh, 15, Clady got him on lock, guy is shutdown. Clady owned him, allowing 15 to be 15.

Pretty funy stuff.

lonestar
10-12-2011, 01:11 PM
So this thread was awesome, lets get back to awesome.

Talk Clady!!

Not so sure he is going to be a BAD ASSED PBS guy.. and frankly taht is what you need inside the five..

great in pass protect and maybe ZBS between the 20's but he is a finese guy that will hurt us when we have to get the 3rd and 1.

That said I hope the resign him unless we can find another like him in the draft only bigger and meaner..

BroncoBuff
10-12-2011, 01:19 PM
I firmly beleive that Josh was more or less pressured to keep Dennison Bobby T and the Ol in tact untill he could prove theycould not PBS
Josh ... pressured? I can't see it. The Josh I saw eagerly grabbed at and was freely given any and all authority he desired. He used it and abused it. The power was his downfall.

Probably Ellis's fault, though he never claimed to be a football guy, that role more or less fell to him.


One of the first guys Josh requited from NE was Hochstien, probably knowing that hamilton would not hack it..
Didn't seem like he knew it ... he kept trotting Ben out there every week despite him getting manhandled.

vonqkilla
10-12-2011, 01:20 PM
Not so sure he is going to be a BAD ASSED PBS guy.. and frankly taht is what you need inside the five.

That said I hope the resign him unless we can find another like him in the draft only bigger and meaner..

Yeah that contract is going to be interesting, what a huge hole to fill if we let him walk (shudders), I cant wait to see him vs vandenbosch and jared allen, separated at birth.

Imagine beadles with an avg LT there. And the way 15 rolls left.

Watch out for stunts!

fontaine
10-12-2011, 01:21 PM
in a heart beat once his ZBS has been exposed he was worthless as a teat on a boar..


I firmly beleive that Josh was more or less pressured to keep Dennison Bobby T and the Ol in tact untill he could prove theycould not PBS, but nte one of the first guys Josh requited from NE was Hochstien, probably knowing that hamilton would not hack it..

Judging a player at the end of his career after repeat concussions forced him out of the game for a year really is the bench mark of stupid.

But like I said everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Like the opinion in Houston/Oakland and other teams that run more ZB plays and are crushing yards out.

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 01:25 PM
Wow one of the reasons I was lurking all of those years because of the love affiars Y'all have with yourselves..


Y'all have to measure Penis's in every post?

Yeah, I didn't intend for it to come to that. Someone took this thread personally for some reason. I have no personal investment in it other than that I made a claim in the second week that the OL was suffering mainly from a lack of preparation and experience rather than a lack of talent and that I made the prognostication that it would be "fine" at the end of the year and didn't need to be tinkered with further. I'm just glad that people are actually posting on an OL thread and finally taking notice. I have been posting on the OL for several weeks now and usually got the same old "the OL sucks" talk from people who didn't really watch the OL.

I want people to talk about it, so I'm glad that whats his name posted here. I'm glad that the other guy posted pictures and gave his input too. Lets make it a subject of conversation so that people actually are a little more educated on the OL. I don't mind differing opinions at all, which is exactly what I was trying to provide and I think that holds true if you go look at my posts in retrospect. I should, however, be better at being suckered-in to picking at histrionics.

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 01:26 PM
So this thread was awesome, lets get back to awesome.

Talk Clady!!

The last play of the game displayed his power and quickness, he shoved his assignment playing 9 technique so far upfield, 15 spins around like uh oh, 15, Clady got him on lock, guy is shutdown. Clady owned him, allowing 15 to be 15.

Pretty funy stuff.

Tebow is going to wear out the OL. Ha!

Kaylore
10-12-2011, 02:14 PM
You didn't prove any point. The only thing that was crushed was the egg that you ovulated.

You got your panties in a wad because I dared say that Kuper wasn't playing much better than Beadles. Then you threw a fit on the floor like a two-year old getting her blankie taken away. Ha!

You were so wrapped up in your premenstrual indignity that you didn't even comprehend what the premise was.

My girlfriend takes Midol. You want me to send you some?

ROFL! Bitter, drama lama.

pricejj
10-12-2011, 02:22 PM
Ingram from South Carolina is getting better and better every game.

The draft boards at the end of the year look a lot different than the ones during the middle of it.

...yeah Ingram is looking like the best DE...thanks for the heads up :approve:
...he looks like top 10

1. Jared Crick was looking solid, but is getting shut down this year from the double-team...reminds me of Adam Carriker without the bulk...
2. Quinton Coples had a good year last year, but I look for consistency...with only 1/2 a sack in his last 4 games shows me he doesn't dominate at the college level...

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Bitter, drama lama.

No bitterness. Speaking of drama, I'm not sure how you figure that you weren't just throwing a fit like an angry abuelita on a telenovela.

P.S. You did win...a tampon.
http://www.tamponfrank.com/tampon.jpg

Kaylore
10-12-2011, 02:38 PM
You're the only one on this board that thinks you're clever, llama.

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 02:41 PM
...yeah Ingram is looking like the best DE...thanks for the heads up :approve:
...he looks like top 10

1. Jared Crick was looking solid, but is getting shut down this year from the double-team...reminds me of Adam Carriker without the bulk...
2. Quinton Coples had a good year last year, but I look for consistency...with only 1/2 a sack in his last 4 games shows me he doesn't dominate at the college level...

Denver could definitely use another two-phase DE, and seeing that the coaching staff approached Charles Johnson about signing here, apparently they believe so too. Its a shame that we didn't have another round 1 pick last year because we could have had Claiborn or another of the several defensive line talents available late into the first round.

I haven't looked at the DT's this season, so I really havent the slightest as to what is available there. That's what we really need. Especially now that Vickerson will be coming back from a season-ending injury just like Warren. That's a really unstable position.

Personally, I'd like to see them address MLB if Burfict is available. But the team needs to take the best CB, RB, DT, or MLB available in all three rounds.

pricejj
10-12-2011, 02:46 PM
or trade back for more picks in the second round

As hurting as this team is for back up/ depth players you can't tell me that we can't find 4-5 of them..

Nothing worth trading up for outside of:

1. Andrew Luck
2. Matt Barkley
3. Kalil (nobody trades up for LT, there are plenty in this draft)
4. Griffen
5. Richardson
6. Jones

...weird...last year a record of 6-10 picked #7 -#12 in the draft...wonder where we will fall.

Interestingly, even if Tebow goes 5-6, which would mean we keep him IMO, we may still be around pick #7...in which case I would trade down.

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 02:54 PM
Nothing worth trading up for outside of:

1. Andrew Luck
2. Matt Barkley
3. Kalil (nobody trades up for LT, there are plenty in this draft)
4. Griffen
5. Richardson
6. Jones

...weird...last year a record of 6-10 picked #7 -#12 in the draft...wonder where we will fall.

Interestingly, even if Tebow goes 5-6, which would mean we keep him IMO, we may still be around pick #7...in which case I would trade down.

I could see the BBT taking Richardson in that case.

pricejj
10-12-2011, 03:04 PM
Denver could definitely use another two-phase DE, and seeing that the coaching staff approached Charles Johnson about signing here, apparently they believe so too. Its a shame that we didn't have another round 1 pick last year because we could have had Claiborn or another of the several defensive line talents available late into the first round.

I haven't looked at the DT's this season, so I really havent the slightest as to what is available there. That's what we really need. Especially now that Vickerson will be coming back from a season-ending injury just like Warren. That's a really unstable position.

Personally, I'd like to see them address MLB if Burfict is available. But the team needs to take the best CB, RB, DT, or MLB available in all three rounds.

The best DT looks like Brandon Thompson, Clemson, 6'2" 310 lbs...not a top flight prospect...mid 1st rounder at best.

CB - I don't like CB in top 12...not a good value pick
RB - Trent Richardson would be nice, but I would rather have an RT, and move Franklin inside...imagine how unstoppable our line would be...we could always get an FA RB.
DT - No elite prospects in 2012
MLB - We do need a team leader on defense...replace Mays...but I don't think drafting LB's is a good idea in the top 12 (*Von)

I know you like Beadles but...

The question is, what is going to of good value when we pick in the 1st? QB, RT, or Trent Richardson.

ColoradoDarin
10-12-2011, 03:10 PM
It's an interesting thought, but moving Franklin inside would be wasting his great footspeed.

For a guy his size, Franklin gets awesome bend and his footwork is really impressive. He's really only had trouble dealing with very good speed rushers, but then again who doesn't?

I haven't focussed on Franklin all that much, but Denver did something interesting this game where they used Clark as an extra blocker outside Franklin (instead of a strong side TE) and we got a lot of push that way.

Oh I agree, I think Franklin is doing an outstanding job so far this year, especially for rookie and moving positions. I was just throwing it out there that we do have the possibility of moving him again and finding a RT, even if that is only a remote chance.

TheReverend
10-12-2011, 03:16 PM
You're the only one on this board that thinks you're clever, llama.

I'd imagine Popps thinks Llama is a "hoot"

epicSocialism4tw
10-12-2011, 03:20 PM
The best DT looks like Brandon Thompson, Clemson, 6'2" 310 lbs...not a top flight prospect...mid 1st rounder at best.

CB - I don't like CB in top 12...not a good value pick
RB - Trent Richardson would be nice, but I would rather have an RT, and move Franklin inside...imagine how unstoppable our line would be...we could always get an FA RB.
DT - No elite prospects in 2012
MLB - We do need a team leader on defense...replace Mays...but I don't think drafting LB's is a good idea in the top 12 (*Von)

I know you like Beadles but...

The question is, what is going to of good value when we pick in the 1st? QB, RT, or Trent Richardson.

Beadles is on a steady upward trajectory. If you compare his games over the course of the season up to this point, Beadles has clearly made strides. As I said in the opening post of the thread, he was a positive, direct contributor in the three most important plays of the game. Some people are over-criticizing Beadles for personal reasons, but I'm pretty sure that the Broncos will see his position as secure between the end of 2011 and the beginning of 2012. That doesn't mean that he becomes an all-pro, obviously. But when you're average per carry steadily increases and you are consistently providing pockets for the QB, and Beadles is contributing to that...you look at other problems.

Requiem
10-12-2011, 04:16 PM
Burfict is the only Defensive front 7 I have going in the top 12...not because he is truly deserving...but because this draft really sucks...only guys I have worthy of top 12 are:

1. Andrew Luck - QB
2. Matt Barkley - QB
3. Matt Kalil - LT
4. Robert Griffin - QB
5. Trent Richardson - RB
7. Landry Jones - QB
8. Michael Floyd - WR
9. Jonathan Martin - LT
10. Vontaze Burfict - ILB
11. Justin Blackmon - WR
12. Dre Kirkpatrick - CB

For the Broncos to get value, they will need to either draft a QB (hope not), OL (replace Beadles), or Richardson RB.

I'm laughing because you rate Burfict as a Top 12 player. He is not a better linebacker than Teo or Kuechly. I'm willing to bet Zach Brown goes higher in the draft as well. He isn't even CLOSE to being that high of a draft pick.

You think he holds more value to a team than Jared Crick or Quinton Coples? No way.

Trent Richardson? Lol. Wait a year for one of the best RB classes of all-time. It would be stupid to address RB that high.

Thompson and Worthy are well deserving of first-round consideration. There are several other players in that mix as well.

When the juniors declare, this is going to be a versatile group to get DL from.

WABronco
10-12-2011, 05:12 PM
We need to draft Chris Polk. McGahee 2.0.

Requiem
10-12-2011, 06:11 PM
Polk would be a real nice runner if he declares.

lonestar
10-12-2011, 08:19 PM
Josh ... pressured? I can't see it. The Josh I saw eagerly grabbed at and was freely given any and all authority he desired. He used it and abused it. The power was his downfall.
Probably Ellis's fault, though he never claimed to be a football guy, that role more or less fell to him.
Didn't seem like he knew it ... he kept trotting Ben out there every week despite him getting manhandled.
I guess you do not get it.
Hamilton was given lots of rope to prove he was the weak link. Which just looking and film would tell anyone not in love with him or mikeys ZBS

As for not pulling the plug on BT and RD sooner. Hey when Pat hired him I'll bet loads of money that some folks were STRONGLY suggested to keep on staff.
After all the running game was a "winner" (@ least between the 20's for a decade or more).

As sweeping authority he was given even he knew that there was only so much he could do without proof. That had to come with game tape and pat seeing what a failure (smoke and mirrors) our vaunted RB and OL group was.
Pat is loyal to a fault after all he kept mikey around about 7 years to long.

Agamemnon
10-12-2011, 08:37 PM
Looks like the linemen are finally starting to put it together with the new blocking scheme. Things are starting to look up a bit. Just a bit...

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:01 PM
Josh ... pressured? I can't see it. .

Did not really address this part ..

Unless you are complete moron when starting a new JOB, you listen to what your boss or owner wants and expects. Who they think are the keepers and who they want to get rid of..

Now IF you can prove them wrong with facts. You stay out of trouble, prove your point and ask them for their advise.

Here is the scenario that most likely took place..

Hey Pat I know that everyone was excited about Dennison and his OL but IF we are going to make it down the path I shared with you when I was hired we are going to have to make some moves..

When I started I sat down with those coaches you thought highly of and requested that I keep. I asked them point-blank can your guys do what We need to do to convert this team to a spread offense that runs Power blocking?

Rick said they could but thought hamilton was the weakest link but the rest could probably put on 10-25 pounds of muscle to convert to the PBS.. now Casey has played PBS before in KC and was pretty good on it but is getting long in the tooth, and we should be looking at long-term there..
as for Kuper he is a keeper as is clady although he has never really run PBS before he gre up in college playing ZBS. HArris IF healthy is a player and should be able to handle it for a few years. but he is injured a lot..

we have a couple of kiddies as back ups and we need to bring a few in to make them better..

But Overall Josh I feel we can make the transition.

As for Bobby T

much the same.. conversation hey we are going to transition to PBS mostly this year, who can do it and who can't as well as which OL guys are not going to hack it..

I like this hillis kid, well he is cock strong but dumber than a rock, can;t keep his wandering eye off of wifes and girlfriends of the team members..

Took him 6 week last year to get the play book and Josh If your going to change it up every week maybe you should look at others to tote the rock he might be ok as a Blocking Back limited sets and plays he has to learn..

After last year and him being the last standing RB he played well until he got hurt and since then fancies himself as a "white" scat back.



I realize that some of that did not happen but after being in some 20 different jobs during my career (all promotions or transfers up ) I know what you have to do to prove a point..

Now Josh was put in a bad spot without any REAL experience above him to keep him focused/in check or what ever you want to say. But he is no dummy when it comes down to coaching and that is ALL about knowing what your players can and can't do..


So odds are he sat down and asked each position coach what they had what their kids could or could not do. What they needed to get the job done..

then tried to make it work.
 

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:03 PM
Looks like the linemen are finally starting to put it together with the new blocking scheme. Things are starting to look up a bit. Just a bit...

Yes they are no HOF on that sqaud yet but they are growing into the job and starting to trust each other.

that takes time to gel.

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah that contract is going to be interesting, what a huge hole to fill if we let him walk (shudders), I cant wait to see him vs vandenbosch and jared allen, separated at birth.

Imagine beadles with an avg LT there. And the way 15 rolls left.

Watch out for stunts!

Yep could be interesting.. but rememebr that we should be passing less and running more.. at elast that is what John F wants to do.. so a gazliion dollar contract to a finese OLT.

The out come of that scares me a bit..

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:11 PM
Judging a player at the end of his career after repeat concussions forced him out of the game for a year really is the bench mark of stupid.

But like I said everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Like the opinion in Houston/Oakland and other teams that run more ZB plays and are crushing yards out.

wow you jsut do not get it do you name me one team that has consitently run the ball using the ZBS and won a superbowl.

I'm waiting hint eh one and only was the broncos with Elway Zimmeramn stink and few others on the OL, Sharpe, Rod, Eddie mac and TD..

Since that no ZBS team has won one and unless I missed it no playoff wins eitehr save the one over NE in 05 season..

Ahmilton was a weak link in the passing game way before his concusion slowed him down..

YOU just flat can't consistently block good big DTs alone when you weigh 285 or less. A law of nature..

now as a running OLG he was pretty damned good when he had a probowl center or OLT next to him..Using ZBS..

one on one not so great..

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:14 PM
You're the only one on this board that thinks you're clever, llama.

and only your teat suckers think you are..

so why not call it a draw and act like men..

not internet thugs..

I Used to have some respect for you for your knowledge, what happened..

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:30 PM
Beadles is on a steady upward trajectory. If you compare his games over the course of the season up to this point, Beadles has clearly made strides. As I said in the opening post of the thread, he was a positive, direct contributor in the three most important plays of the game. Some people are over-criticizing Beadles for personal reasons, but I'm pretty sure that the Broncos will see his position as secure between the end of 2011 and the beginning of 2012. That doesn't mean that he becomes an all-pro, obviously. But when you're average per carry steadily increases and you are consistently providing pockets for the QB, and Beadles is contributing to that...you look at other problems.

Unless you have a hard on for one of those guys that are making it happen..

We have plenty of other issues to deal with player wise..

the problem with member here and on other forums.. They get personally invested in given player..

take cutler as an example.. Some predicted he would be taken and are so full of themselves over it, they can't see that the guy has a downside also..
the stake out a claim on them as being the man and can't back off if they see them falter..

They have so much invested in a player they feel their reputation is at stake and will ride that moron into the ground if they have to..to prove he was the man..

I personally thought cutler had the makings of a good QB, but then saw the faults he had, forcing the ball too much and frankly becoming a sniveling baby when played Rivers those last couple of years..

he has become a head case since joing the NFL perhaps he was before I did nto follow him.

Now we have members that are humping Luck and will do anything short of blowing up the team bus to see we get him in the draft.. and any comment that can make about Orton or Tebow will be derogatory..

Saw it happen before and will watch it unfold again..

happens when you have so many kiddies that grew up playing madden thinking that they know it all..

or better yet play FF and think they have their crap together enough to call out pros doing their jobs..Hilarious!Hilarious!

KevinJames
10-12-2011, 09:31 PM
If the O-line keeps gelling and improving like it is are "rebuild" mode will be cut in half almost I think our needs are clear for the next few years it needs to be all defense outside of the QB (depending on Tim).

Priority from hear on out should be:
QB (again depending on Tim)
CB (dire need)
DT (need 1 dominant starter + depth)
RB (long term solution to a 1A can be a FA)
LB
S (Dawkins is done soon, is Carter the answer at SS?)
Interior OL
DE (Ayers and Doom are solid but we need depth)
WR
TE

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm laughing because you rate Burfict as a Top 12 player. He is not a better linebacker than Teo or Kuechly. I'm willing to bet Zach Brown goes higher in the draft as well. He isn't even CLOSE to being that high of a draft pick.

You think he holds more value to a team than Jared Crick or Quinton Coples? No way.

Trent Richardson? Lol. Wait a year for one of the best RB classes of all-time. It would be stupid to address RB that high.

Thompson and Worthy are well deserving of first-round consideration. There are several other players in that mix as well.

When the juniors declare, this is going to be a versatile group to get DL from.


DREAM on, I see you still have not learned how to treat people like adults..

Agamemnon
10-12-2011, 09:36 PM
If the O-line keeps gelling and improving like it is are "rebuild" mode will be cut in half almost I think our needs are clear for the next few years it needs to be all defense outside of the QB (depending on Tim).

Priority from hear on out should be:
QB (again depending on Tim)
CB (dire need)
DT (need 1 dominant starter + depth)
RB (long term solution to a 1A can be a FA)
LB
S (Dawkins is done soon, is Carter the answer at SS?)
Interior OL
DE (Ayers and Doom are solid but we need depth)
WR
TE

You missed OL depth. And honestly, barring a complete implosion by Tebow I can't see QB being that high. Honestly, barring having the #1 pick and taking what everyone seems to think is a franchise savior in Luck, the rest of this QB class doesn't seem like something you just toss a guy like Tebow aside for. Not when you have so many needs.

lonestar
10-12-2011, 09:41 PM
I think our needs are clear for the next few years it needs to be all defense outside of the QB (depending on Tim).

Priority from hear on out should be:
QB (again depending on Tim)
CB (dire need)
DT (need 1 dominant starter + depth)
RB (long term solution to a 1A can be a FA)
LB
S (Dawkins is done soon, is Carter the answer at SS?)
Interior OL
DE (Ayers and Doom are solid but we need depth)
WR
TE

good well thought out post..

Not so sure on CB being a dire need..

HAving a studly DL for pressure makes good CB into great CBs..

DT no doubt about it I have been harping on this since John E retired.. if you look back we havenever drafted a DT on day one that has played a snap.
We could use a couple of them and bring them on slowly.. If Y'all noticed DET had NINE dl types on the active roster last game day.. kept a fresh one or set on teh field at all times..

RB well I think your pretty right on there.

LB if we can find a R lewis type (player not convict) then absolutely pick one up on day one..

As for safety might already have those kids on the roster maybe better depth..

OL I think we have the kiddies we need .
Now IF we could find a pouncey type in there some wher eperhaps to cover cladys loss next year then I'll buy that and having a couple QUALITY backups would not hurt eiether..

as for DE yep see DT above..

WR and TEs not so sure they need much help there until we see if ours are keepers.. Which they seem to be..

pricejj
10-12-2011, 09:59 PM
You missed OL depth. And honestly, barring a complete implosion by Tebow I can't see QB being that high. Honestly, barring having the #1 pick and taking what everyone seems to think is a franchise savior in Luck, the rest of this QB class doesn't seem like something you just toss a guy like Tebow aside for. Not when you have so many needs.

If Tebow doesn't prove he is a franchise QB in the next 11 games...by all means draft Luck or Griffin.

Robert Griffin is throwing an 80% completion rate, 19 TD's, 1 int.

:strong:

Agamemnon
10-12-2011, 10:22 PM
If Tebow doesn't prove he is a franchise QB in the next 11 games...by all means draft Luck or Griffin.

Robert Griffin is throwing an 80% completion rate, 19 TD's, 1 int.

:strong:

Are you kidding me? Robert Griffin? Robert ****ing Griffin? Hilarious!

BroncoBuff
10-12-2011, 10:58 PM
Unless you are complete moron when starting a new JOB, you listen to what your boss wants and expects. Who they think are the keepers and who they want to get rid of..

Now IF you can prove them wrong with facts. You stay out of trouble, prove your point and ask them for their advise.

"Here is the scenario that most likely took place..."

"Here is the scenario that likely took place" ... you can't be serious. Painting Josh like some fresh-faced boy scout ... anxious to listen, eager to please and determined to stay out of trouble?

You might think me the 'complete moron' you describe, but on this particular point I am 100% satisfied you are 100% wrong. Josh was/is a brash, headstrong know-it-all. Rightly tagged an offensive genius ... wrongly convinced that genius automatically extends in every direction.

Josh might have succeeded here, might have done well, if only there had been somebody upstairs with backbone, experience and authority. They should have confiscated his key to the second floor, kept him on the field teaching his offense. And mandate DC firings go through the front office. And keep Xanders as the salary cap guy. And ... (say it with me) ... retain Jim Goodman as personnel director!


Burger Bill's post mortem on Josh was perfect:

When Shanahan was gassed, the Goodmans stayed and were part of the group that hired McDaniels. They were abruptly fired less than two months after McDaniels was hired. This was a bad sign. McDaniels played a role in firing two people who were part of the decision-making team that just hired him. He had too much power for a 32-year-old first-time head coach. http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/jeff-goodman

Hammer, nail, head.

pricejj
10-12-2011, 11:32 PM
Are you kidding me? Robert Griffin? Robert ****ing Griffin? Hilarious!

No. Not kidding. What's the problem? Have to see how he does down the stretch, but so far is looking like a franchise QB. More accurate than Barkley...better than Jones.

Let's just say we are not going to have the #1 pick. Who would you rather have if Tebow can't hack it?

pricejj
10-12-2011, 11:43 PM
I'm laughing because you rate Burfict as a Top 12 player. He is not a better linebacker than Teo or Kuechly. I'm willing to bet Zach Brown goes higher in the draft as well. He isn't even CLOSE to being that high of a draft pick.

You think he holds more value to a team than Jared Crick or Quinton Coples? No way.

Trent Richardson? Lol. Wait a year for one of the best RB classes of all-time. It would be stupid to address RB that high.

Thompson and Worthy are well deserving of first-round consideration. There are several other players in that mix as well.

When the juniors declare, this is going to be a versatile group to get DL from.

1. You are right, Coples is in the top 10, Burfict is out, not enough production. Coples is versatile, plus has pass rush ability.
2. Don't like Teo or Kuechly in the NFL at MLB.
3. Thompson is beastly as well, but where's the production? Need to watch more tape on this dude...he is a senior, his stats aren't elite, neither is his size.
3. I used to want Crick, but doesn't fit well with Broncos...isn't having a good year so far.
4. Not sold on Worthy.
6. Richardson will be a top 10 draft pick.

Agamemnon
10-12-2011, 11:43 PM
No. Not kidding. What's the problem?

Replace the spread option QB with another spread option QB. Brilliant!

pricejj
10-12-2011, 11:51 PM
Replace the spread option QB with another spread option QB. Brilliant!

I hope Tebow brings us to the Superbowl, but if he doesn't perform I will move on quick.

Griffin is on fire, and deserves a long look.

Agamemnon
10-13-2011, 12:01 AM
Let's just say we are not going to have the #1 pick. Who would you rather have if Tebow can't hack it?

I am adamantly against drafting a QB next draft unless Tebow pulls a Clausen. We have far too many needs to not at least try to develop a guy that we've invested a 1st round pick in. Now if he sucks throughout the 2012 season as well? Then sure. Draft a QB. But don't draft a guy that has a very similar game to replace him.

KevinJames
10-13-2011, 12:28 AM
good well thought out post..

Not so sure on CB being a dire need..

HAving a studly DL for pressure makes good CB into great CBs..

DT no doubt about it I have been harping on this since John E retired.. if you look back we havenever drafted a DT on day one that has played a snap.
We could use a couple of them and bring them on slowly.. If Y'all noticed DET had NINE dl types on the active roster last game day.. kept a fresh one or set on teh field at all times..

RB well I think your pretty right on there.

LB if we can find a R lewis type (player not convict) then absolutely pick one up on day one..

As for safety might already have those kids on the roster maybe better depth..

OL I think we have the kiddies we need .
Now IF we could find a pouncey type in there some wher eperhaps to cover cladys loss next year then I'll buy that and having a couple QUALITY backups would not hurt eiether..

as for DE yep see DT above..

WR and TEs not so sure they need much help there until we see if ours are keepers.. Which they seem to be..

I agree we need DL depth but I think we are building a good core slowly, Bunk is a guy we can grow with I think we made a good trade getting him, Marcus Thomas has a chance to be a pretty good 3 tech. Ayers is solid at DE. Doom enough said. Need a dominant DT for sure but were set at DE, we do need depth.

but I really feel CB is a dire need we need get some talent there. If Champ is out we suffer so much and we see it everyone sees it. Looking at the roster Champ is the only one id bring back maybe Vaughn and Wilhite for depth or in a nickel-dime role.

Champ is great but thats about it, and how long can we really expect him to do it hes having issues with injuries and more will come as he ages but he can still play and he will be here.

Goodman is really showing his age we should not even think about bringing him back. Hes terrible huge reason why we lost sunday IMO.

Vaughn may be a decent nickel-dime guy but that may be his ceiling he really was a long shot before camp he surprised big time. Wilhite might be good depth to keep around not starter material tho. Sydquan coming off an injury undersized not really a lock to make it.

lonestar
10-13-2011, 01:02 AM
"Here is the scenario that likely took place" ... you can't be serious. Painting Josh like some fresh-faced boy scout ... anxious to listen, eager to please and determined to stay out of trouble?

You might think me the 'complete moron' you describe, but on this particular point I am 100% satisfied you are 100% wrong. Josh was/is a brash, headstrong know-it-aAnd ... (say it with me) ... retain Jim Goodman as personnel director!


Burger Bill's post mortem on Josh was perfect:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/jeff-goodman

Hammer, nail, head.

You actually beleive anything that bill burger writes.

Guess that does qualify you as a moron.

Goodman had zero to do with him being hired was not in the decision making process it was all Pat and Joe.
Is Goodman a cousin or something that would explain Your bromance.

BroncoBuff
10-13-2011, 05:27 AM
You actually beleive anything that bill burger writes. Guess that does qualify you as a moron.

Goodman had zero to do with him being hired was not in the decision making process it was all Pat and Joe. Is Goodman a cousin or something that would explain Your bromance.

It's against my better judgment to continue with you, but I can't imagine a less accurate description of Josh McDaniels, so okay, here we go: 1) Yes, Ellis and Bowlen did the hiring, that was clear. But remember Goodman's title was General Manager, and as such, he was by definition "part of the team" that hired McDaniels. 2) Bill's not the only guy whose articles chronicled this. Mike Klis wrote this the day Josh was introduced as head coach. Pay close attention the Josh quote:


It was clear Monday, during the introductory news conference of head coach Josh McDaniels, that Goodman will have final say. The idea is to collaborate. But occasionally there are disagreements on a particular player "Hopefully there's not many of those, but Jim would make the call if there's an issue in terms of personnel," McDaniels said.http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11439117


3) Describing my respect for Goodman, I prefer "ardent admirer' to your inartful 'cousin' and 'bromance.' And your insinuation that admiration is without merit merely exposes you as the kind of fan who can't be bothered with details (that's not an insult, I'm often that kinda fan too). Not saying you're a bad fan, not a dummy, just a guy who hasn't taken the time to re-visit and analyze past drafts. Do yourself a favor, go over the drafts before and after Goodman's three. I think WABronco posted them - oh for hevvinsake I just looked it up, IT WAS YOU KNOTHEAD ... YOU posted the list of train wreck drafts that preceded Goodman! (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3322057&postcount=133), and oh my, it was in response to YET ANOTHER of my Goodman posts.

I gotta let this go ....

fontaine
10-13-2011, 06:29 AM
This really is getting to be one of the best wrecking jobs of derailling a decent football thread I've seen in a while.

Kaylore
10-13-2011, 07:16 AM
DREAM on, I see you still have not learned how to treat people like adults..

Who made you the board nanny? Since you've come into this conversation here you've basically insulted every single poster and every single take and offered next to nothing of substance. What's comical is you don't even know what you're talking about. Are you Beadles' dad? If you have a take, then make one. But if you're just going to tell everyone they're stupid, then piss off if you hate the thread so much.

Whiny troll.

Kaylore
10-13-2011, 07:17 AM
This really is getting to be one of the best wrecking jobs of derailling a decent football thread I've seen in a while.

Lonestar = troll.

lonestar
10-13-2011, 07:48 AM
Who made you the board nanny? Since you've come into this conversation here you've basically insulted every single poster and every single take and offered next to nothing of substance. What's comical is you don't even know what you're talking about. Are you Beadles' dad? If you have a take, then make one. But if you're just going to tell everyone they're stupid, then piss off if you hate the thread so much.

Whiny troll.


No one made me the nanny.
But it was obvious to anyone nit invested innbeing on either side of your pissing contest with him is it was no longer about anything but picking a fight.
I get it your the big fish here.
I used to respect lots of your posts. But someone had to call you on y'all measuring dicks.

Nope not beadles dad, but certainly more objective than you are.

Iirc you were singing the praises of how much better kuper is compared to beadles.
5 year vet compared to a guy that has about 12 games total at OLG. Is well just short of ludicrous. Expecting him to have the same skill set and to have no upside well that speaks loads about bias.

When some one dares to challenge you about something like this your clingons have to pipe in with cheap shots trying to curry favor with the almighty kalore.

I just call it bull****. Always have always will.
Now go play with all Your trolls who think you walk on water.
Or decide to discuss football like adults.
The choice is yours.

lonestar
10-13-2011, 07:51 AM
Lonestar = troll.

Real adult.

One of the reasons over the years I have been here that I have stayed on the sidelines and not commented on the gang mentality.

This place has been known for knowledgeable posters but more so on ganging upon mortals.

Kaylore
10-13-2011, 08:00 AM
You're such a moron. Did you even read the thread? The argument was made that Beadles is as good as Kuper, not by me. I showed he was not. I was not "upset" that Beadles isn't as good as Kuper and never claimed he should be. I was shocked that it is was glaringly obvious how wrong he is and pointed it out. You're arguing the same point as me - that Kuper is supposed to be better and he is. I don't expect Beadles to be all world, but if some retard soccer-loving idiot poster claims Beadles is better than Kuper, I am going to refute that statement. Beadles is the most inconsistent player on the offensive line.

You're right about one thing and that is I shouldn't have wasted time arguing with the joke that is DramaLlama.

Kaylore
10-13-2011, 08:02 AM
Real adult.

One of the reasons over the years I have been here that I have stayed on the sidelines and not commented on the gang mentality.

This place has been known for knowledgeable posters but more so on ganging upon mortals.

Do you find it more adult to pretend you telling everyone how dumb and childish they are is going to change behavior, especially when you clearly misunderstand the argument? I for one don't give a crap what you think.

jhns
10-13-2011, 08:05 AM
Things we already knew:

Kaylore is sensitive.

Lonestar is an idiot.


It is good to see that nothing changes.

vonqkilla
10-13-2011, 10:15 AM
This forum sucks 9/10 times.

schaaf
10-13-2011, 10:18 AM
Things we already knew:

Kaylore is sensitive.

Lonestar is an idiot.


It is good to see that nothing changes.

And Schaaf is A BOSS.

jhns
10-13-2011, 10:39 AM
And Schaaf is A BOSS.

And Shaaf is a boss.

I can't believe I left that out. I fail.

schaaf
10-13-2011, 10:51 AM
And Shaaf is a boss.

I can't believe I left that out. I fail.

It's okay now... Don't make the mistake again though

epicSocialism4tw
10-13-2011, 11:28 AM
You're such a moron. Did you even read the thread? The argument was made that Beadles is as good as Kuper, not by me. I showed he was not. I was not "upset" that Beadles isn't as good as Kuper and never claimed he should be. I was shocked that it is was glaringly obvious how wrong he is and pointed it out. You're arguing the same point as me - that Kuper is supposed to be better and he is. I don't expect Beadles to be all world, but if some retard soccer-loving idiot poster claims Beadles is better than Kuper, I am going to refute that statement. Beadles is the most inconsistent player on the offensive line.

You're right about one thing and that is I shouldn't have wasted time arguing with the joke that is DramaLlama.

Did you get those tampons I sent you?

Northman
10-13-2011, 04:53 PM
Who made you the board nanny? Since you've come into this conversation here you've basically insulted every single poster and every single take and offered next to nothing of substance. What's comical is you don't even know what you're talking about. Are you Beadles' dad? If you have a take, then make one. But if you're just going to tell everyone they're stupid, then piss off if you hate the thread so much.

Whiny troll.


:spit:

Agamemnon
10-13-2011, 06:17 PM
Real adult.

One of the reasons over the years I have been here that I have stayed on the sidelines and not commented on the gang mentality.

This place has been known for knowledgeable posters but more so on ganging upon mortals.

God how I hate hypocrisy...

lonestar
10-13-2011, 07:34 PM
God how I hate hypocrisy...

then don't post.. pretty simple

lonestar
10-13-2011, 07:34 PM
:spit:

see you have kept up your normal self..


to sad..

time to let it go..

lonestar
10-13-2011, 07:37 PM
Do you find it more adult to pretend you telling everyone how dumb and childish they are is going to change behavior, especially when you clearly misunderstand the argument? I for one don't give a crap what you think.

One can hope it would raise the IQ level and get rid of the jock strap measuring..

but I guess not..

But I rarely give up trying..

claymore
10-14-2011, 04:38 AM
Who made you the board nanny? Since you've come into this conversation here you've basically insulted every single poster and every single take and offered next to nothing of substance. What's comical is you don't even know what you're talking about. Are you Beadles' dad? If you have a take, then make one. But if you're just going to tell everyone they're stupid, then piss off if you hate the thread so much.

Whiny troll.

BAM!

epicSocialism4tw
10-14-2011, 04:59 AM
BAM!

Sounds like Kaylore is describing himself...just replace "Beadles" with "Kuper".

Northman
10-14-2011, 08:57 AM
see you have kept up your normal self..


to sad..

time to let it go..


Dont blame me. I just think its funny that no matter what board you go too that your still considered a troll. Maybe its time for you to come to grips with the fact people were right about you. :thumbsup:

Ray Finkle
10-14-2011, 09:17 AM
Dont blame me. I just think its funny that no matter what board you go too that your still considered a troll. Maybe its time for you to come to grips with the fact people were right about you. :thumbsup:

I've missed you!:thumbsup:

Powderaddict
10-14-2011, 09:17 AM
*comes into thread to finally read about Walton, reads this page, slowly backs out*