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BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 07:55 AM
Tebow Total QBR
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7081063/nfl-week...

83.2 while Orton's total QBR was 5.1


Clearly Orton gives us the best chance to win.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 07:56 AM
Still think this is a bum stat over all but pretty accurate in this case.

v2micca
10-10-2011, 07:58 AM
Yeah, I still don't trust that stat. It remains a magic made up number as far as I am concerned.

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 08:01 AM
Well one is a PASSER rating and the other takes other stuff into account.

There is other stuff the QB does after all that contributes to wins.

Br0nc0Buster
10-10-2011, 08:10 AM
I thought I read for that stat in the 50s was average and anything in the 80s is considered very good

so far so good I guess

The Moops
10-10-2011, 08:17 AM
Love all the Tebow talk!

gyldenlove
10-10-2011, 08:23 AM
QBR is an utter bull**** stat with so many subjective factors even a sociologist would give it the stink-eye.

Give me enough free parameters and I can model anything, especially if I never have to tell you what those parameters are and what they mean.

smoke4815162342
10-10-2011, 08:29 AM
QBR is an utter bull**** stat with so many subjective factors even a sociologist would give it the stink-eye.

Give me enough free parameters and I can model anything, especially if I never have to tell you what those parameters are and what they mean.

agree with this

Jason in LA
10-10-2011, 08:31 AM
Here's a simple stat.

Orton- produced one field goal.

Tebow- produced two TDs, nearly completed game tying two point conversion, then drove them into range of a makeable final play with :01 left.

I'm not sure what that stat would be called but i'll take Tebow.

jhns
10-10-2011, 08:38 AM
Here's a simple stat.

Orton- produced one field goal.

Tebow- produced two TDs, nearly completed game tying two point conversion, then drove them into range of a makeable final play with :01 left.

I'm not sure what that stat would be called but i'll take Tebow.

It is called the, Tebow produces as could be seen last season and I have no clue how anyone could have been dumb enough to want Orton in there, stat. I still am kind of wondering about our front office because of this. It was a very stupid move to play Orton. I almost wish Fox would have stuck with his decision so he could go down with Orton. It would be nice to have a coach that recognizes talent and production again. Now I'm just hoping Fox turns it around and doesn't make any more mistakes that cost us games.

ppablo
10-10-2011, 08:47 AM
tebow didn't turn the ball over like the statue of orton does...

strafen
10-10-2011, 09:02 AM
I agree. QBR does not take into consideration things like; improvisation, heart, inspiration and will to lead the troops to battle 'til the end.

As long as Tebow has the ball in his hands, the play is not dead, the game is not over. That's what I like about the kid.
Great stuff. Fun to watch, and you know that excitement he brings to the table is the feeling that we can always win every Sunday, that we have a chance to win every time he's on the field.
I haven't had that feeling in a long time.
Football is again fun to watch for me. It's fun to root for your team when you know your QB is a gamer.
Yeah, it's not going to be pretty perhaps; especially in the next 3 games or so as Tebow develops timing with his receivers. Once that happens, his game will improve from the passing accuracy standpoint.

Also, his receivers now need to understand that when a play breaks down, they need to get their asses open, as long as Tebow has the ball the play is NOT dead.
He will make things happen. He will battle til the end. He won't easily be denied!

Intangibles off the chart. Tremendous improvisation talent.
Can't teach that!

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 09:19 AM
agree with this

You may not agree with it, but maybe I can change your mind.

Many people make fun of the fact that Elway has a career PASSER rating of 79.

Many of us fans blame Reeves. We think Reeves was this overly conservative coach. Well, that is totally untrue.Reeves was considered to be one of the most innovative coaches and a true offensive mind. That was why he was hired. To be the exact opposite of Red Miller. Elway had the most pass attempts in a season under Reeves in 1985.

No, the QBR ratin will give a better idea as to how it is he had the most wins as a starter, started in the most SB as a starter and had the most 4th quarter come backs.

The QBR actually illuminates those reasons.

Popps
10-10-2011, 09:21 AM
I don't care about Tebow's QB ratings if he can win games. But, simple logic tells us that he has to be able to complete passes as a QB at this level. Hopefully that can improve next game.

Arkie
10-10-2011, 09:52 AM
I thought I read for that stat in the 50s was average and anything in the 80s is considered very good

so far so good I guess

Yep. The QBs ranked in the 50's are in the middle. Orton is dead last. Tebow is near the top ahead of Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady.

Jay3
10-10-2011, 10:21 AM
I love how this is working out with the QBR -- ESPN is rolling out their precious new stat that is supposed to show how much a quarterback really contributes to winning a game, and just when they're trying to build a foundation for its credibility, Tebow starts crapping on it by scoring high on QBR. It forces ESPN to either backtrack on what many of its hired guns are saying, or else crap on their stat.

smoke4815162342
10-10-2011, 11:30 AM
You may not agree with it, but maybe I can change your mind.

Many people make fun of the fact that Elway has a career PASSER rating of 79.

Many of us fans blame Reeves. We think Reeves was this overly conservative coach. Well, that is totally untrue.Reeves was considered to be one of the most innovative coaches and a true offensive mind. That was why he was hired. To be the exact opposite of Red Miller. Elway had the most pass attempts in a season under Reeves in 1985.

No, the QBR ratin will give a better idea as to how it is he had the most wins as a starter, started in the most SB as a starter and had the most 4th quarter come backs.

The QBR actually illuminates those reasons.

That does nothing to change my mind. The QBR is mostly subjective and besides a number and someone at espn telling us we should believe, there is no other information given about it. If they were to reveal the process in determining the grade, and give concrete examples of grades, than I would start to see legitimacy in it.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:35 AM
I don't care about Tebow's QB ratings if he can win games. But, simple logic tells us that he has to be able to complete passes as a QB at this level. Hopefully that can improve next game.

Hater... :sunshine:

mhgaffney
10-10-2011, 11:38 AM
I don't care about Tebow's QB ratings if he can win games. But, simple logic tells us that he has to be able to complete passes as a QB at this level. Hopefully that can improve next game.

Apparently you missed that nifty screen to Moreno.

v2micca
10-11-2011, 06:09 AM
That does nothing to change my mind. The QBR is mostly subjective and besides a number and someone at espn telling us we should believe, there is no other information given about it. If they were to reveal the process in determining the grade, and give concrete examples of grades, than I would start to see legitimacy in it.

Agree, I have no issue with people attempting to develop metrics with which to measure how much an athlete actually contributes to a team's victory. In fact, I applaud any effort to that effect as the tools that we have now could charitably be described as primitive.

But I don't trust ESPN. I'm sorry, I don't. And when they trot out this magic number that is supposed to be some kind of measure of a QB's performance, but don't give me any information how they calculated it......well, it just smacks of voodoo mathematics. ESPN has an agenda. They have a narrative that they want to construct and now they have a new stat that they can tailor behind the scenes to support that narrative. That's not progress.

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 08:18 AM
That does nothing to change my mind. The QBR is mostly subjective and besides a number and someone at espn telling us we should believe, there is no other information given about it. If they were to reveal the process in determining the grade, and give concrete examples of grades, than I would start to see legitimacy in it.

There is no rating system that is perfect. I said the QBR gives a better idea as to how Elway won at the rate he did.

The passer rating in his case was not a good analysis. There were other aspects of what Elway did that isnt seen in the passer rating, that is accounted for in the QBR.

Like the "clutch index."
Clutch Index


The final major step is to look at how "clutch" the situation was when creating expected points. A normal play has a clutch index of 1.0. For instance, first-and-goal from the 10-yard line in a tie game at the start of the second quarter has a clutch index of almost exactly 1.0. A more clutch situation, one late in the game when the game is close -- the same situation as above but midway through the fourth quarter, for example -- has a clutch index of about 2.0. Maximum clutch indices are about 3.0, and minimum indices are about 0.3.

These clutch index values came from an analysis of how different situations affect a game's win probability on average. One way to think of it is in terms of pressure. A clutch play is defined before the play by how close the game appears to be. Down four points with three seconds to go and facing third-and-goal from the 3-yard line -- that is a high-pressure and high-clutch index situation because the play can realistically raise the odds of winning to almost 100 percent or bring them down from about 40 percent to almost zero percent. The same situation from midfield isn't as high pressure because it's very unlikely that the team will pull out the victory. Sure, a Hail Mary can pull the game out, but if it doesn't work, the team didn't fail on that play so much as it failed before then. On third-and-goal from the 3-yard line, failure means people will be talking about that final play and what went wrong.



The clutch indices are multiplied by the quarterback's expected points on plays when the QB had a significant contribution, then divided by the sum of the clutch indices and multiplied by 100 to get a clutch-valued expected points added per 100 plays.

BroncoBuff
10-11-2011, 08:24 AM
QBR is a bum stat. Still ... 5.1?! I didn't know the scale went that low.

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 08:26 AM
QBR is a bum stat. Still ... 5.1?! I didn't know the scale went that low.

You think it ought to be higher? 6 for 13 30 yards and an int? You want it higher, or is 5.1 too high like I think?

Kaylore
10-11-2011, 08:45 AM
Still think this is a bum stat over all but pretty accurate in this case.

Tebow's 84 might need an asterisk. Orton's 5.1 does not (and that's not factoring a dropped int).

UberBroncoMan
10-11-2011, 08:48 AM
That missed 90 yard TD pass to a streaking Decker still kills me.

I wish so badly that happened just to see the reaction of the crowd and response of the critics since that would have been a play that was only possible due to his scrambling.

UberBroncoMan
10-11-2011, 08:50 AM
In other news.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7081061/nfl-week-5-total-qbr-season-leaders

How's Kevin Kolb working for you AZ.

Lulz

AlphaSeirra
10-11-2011, 09:26 AM
Tebow Total QBR
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7081063/nfl-week...

83.2 while Orton's total QBR was 5.1

Clearly Orton gives us the best chance to win.

This thread looks like as good a place and any to throw in my morning rant after reading an article on AOL Sporting News...:sunshine:

Tim Tebow threw for 79 yards (20 yds/rec) and a TD and rushed for another 38 yards and a TD against the Chargers on Sunday,
(after coming in cold and behind in the 2nd half).


Can Tim do it?
David Whitley (i.e. Witless Dave) AOL - NFL - Sporting News: "If he can, there will be a lot of very surprised people around the NFL.
They are not Tebow haters (they constantly claim). (so) They preface every (negative bs) comment with the usual nods to his
character, his enthusiasm and his work ethic (which are btw UN-deniable)."

===============

But they (Tebow doubters) have not yet disappeared:
David Whitley (Witless Dave) AOL - NFL - Sporting News:
"But can he do the slow, steady burn it takes to really make an offense cook (long term)?"
This twit is still attempting to be a 'cute-sie doubter' with this kind of constant crap:
"But if that were all it took to be a successful quarterback, Desmond Tutu would be starting for the Chiefs.
Come to think of it, the 93-year-old still has a quicker delivery than Tebow.
The only real 'Buts' here, are really true Butts, like ole Witless Dave imoho.

But what does Tim have to go with his:
(1) Sterling Character
(2) Unbridled Enthusiasm
(3) Total Work Ethic?

How about years of proven performance against the Very Best at every previous level of competition?

From PeeWee to the Florida HS 4A State Champion, to BCS National Champion,,,, twice.
* His doubters have Never been correct, but they have Never given up their doubts either, (idiots).

For how tough Florida HS Football is, just look for where the most D1 football recruits come from.
The toughest (by far) College Conference in the Nation is the SEC, hands down and without a doubt.
The SEC is currently on an NCAA All Time Best 5 Consecutive BCS-NC's run, (previous record is 3 mNC's).
The SEC has accomplished that with 4 DIFFERENT teams, 06UF 07LSU 08UF 09UA 10AU.
The SEC also currently holds the 2011 #1 and #2 Ranked teams in the nation (LSU/Bama) and is strongly favored
to make it 6 Consecutive BCS-NC's.

(1) Tim's Senior Class at UF set the SEC's All Time W/L Record going 48-7.
(2) They did that against 40 bowl team opponents, which included undefeated and/or #1 ranked teams.
(3) He set the SEC's, NCAA All Time QB Career >Pass Efficiency< Rating at 170.79, 88 TD's to just 16 Ints.
(4) He broke RB Herschel Walker's SEC Career Rushing TD record (49) with 57 Rushing TD's.
(5) He broke the unbreakable 20/20 Season TD Barrier. Actually he SHATTERED it - 32-P/23-R, 55 TD's.
(6) He didn't just win 'A' Heisman Trophy, he was the FIRST SOPHOMORE to EVER be awarded that Trophy shattering another barrier.
* Tim also has many pages of records and awards at UF, including the Campbell Trophy (Academic Heisman).
* Note: UF has already had 3 Campbell/Draddy Trophy winners, how many have the (super-intelligent)
Stanford players been awarded?

~ But all of you true Bronco fans should just 'settle down' cause NONE of that long Tebow history means a thing when it comes to NFL success.
Apparently even Tebow's NFL success also means nothing.... 8')
(but ole Lucky's Stanford career means EVERYTHING,,, making him a certain lock)

Some kind of freak career ending injury (which could happen to ANY player) is about the ONLY thing that I
believe could stop Tim from having at least a 'successful' NFL career as a QB.
* SB wins and/or a HoF NFL career will require a strong supporting cast, same as for any NFL QB.
(his doubters will likely now switch to denying that he has the ability to ever accomplish either of those 2 things)

Insanity = Doing the same thing over and over,,,, but expecting different results.
One positive in this; the 'Insane Tebow Doubters' are slowing shrinking in numbers..... :nutkick

Witless Dave - "The shortcomings of Denver’s No. 2 quarterback weren’t fatal as long as he remained No. 2.
Tebow could enter when the game was skewed and defenses played loose."
* Guess this idiot forgot which QB played in Denver's last 3 games in 2010,,, as the STARTER.


Doubter-Yappers:

(1) Won't be drafted in the 1st round as a QB, maybe in 4th as a FB or TE.
(2) Will never take a snap as the starting NFL QB, #1 2010 Rookie QB PER, 5 TD's + 5.3 ypc with 6 TD's.
(3) Won't be able to run the ball like he did at UF/SEC, career 4.3 ypc. #1 Rookie Runner 5.3 ypc with 6 rushing TD's.
(4) Weak inaccurate arm, poor footwork and mechanics. #1 Bronco QB in preseason, 108 PER + 6.4 ypc.
(Bonus ZERO Interceptions on his inaccurate throws, and ZERO lost possession fumbles handling snaps)
(5) Came in cold off the bench against SD, 101.7 PER - 1 TD, + 6.3 ypc and another TD.

AOL - NFL - Sporting News: "Fox isn’t saying so yet, but he has to replace Orton with Tebow.
If he doesn’t, there may really be a (fan) riot outside Broncos headquarters."
* Showing that even ole Witless Dave can accidentally get something correct occasionally.... LOL

But just to show you how IGNORANT ole Witless Dave really is: "The Broncos have a bye week, so he’ll be
getting plenty of first-team snaps over the next two weeks.
And wouldn’t you know Tebow’s >>> first NFL start <<< is going to be in Miami."
This ignorant twit has now shown what HE KNOWS and DOESN'T KNOW, (which is very much). thwack

Swedish Extrovert
10-11-2011, 10:01 AM
I just came from a mathematics class. I want to know more about the methodology of this rating, or if it's just pseudoscience.

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 10:04 AM
I just came from a mathematics class. I want to know more about the methodology of this rating, or if it's just pseudoscience.

Total QBR BasicsA quick primer on the fundamentals of Total Quarterback Rating:

Scoring: 0-100, from low to high. An average QB would be at 50.
Win Probability: All QB plays are scored based on how much they contribute to a win. By determining expected point totals for almost any situation, Total QBR is able to apply points to a quarterback based on every type of play he would be involved in.
Dividing Credit: Total QBR factors in such things as overthrows, underthrows, yards after the catch and more to accurately determine how much a QB contributes to each play.
Clutch Index: How critical a certain play is based on when it happens in a game is factored into the score.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6833215/explaining-statistics-total-quarterback-rating

v2micca
10-11-2011, 10:34 AM
Total QBR BasicsA quick primer on the fundamentals of Total Quarterback Rating:

Scoring: 0-100, from low to high. An average QB would be at 50.
Win Probability: All QB plays are scored based on how much they contribute to a win. By determining expected point totals for almost any situation, Total QBR is able to apply points to a quarterback based on every type of play he would be involved in.
Dividing Credit: Total QBR factors in such things as overthrows, underthrows, yards after the catch and more to accurately determine how much a QB contributes to each play.
Clutch Index: How critical a certain play is based on when it happens in a game is factored into the score.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6833215/explaining-statistics-total-quarterback-rating



I'm pretty sure this is not what he was looking for. I think he wants the same thing I want, the formula used to calculate the final number. Specifically, what metrics go in, how they were measured, how are they weighted, and the precise methodology used to calculate the final number. This is information that ESPN is not willing to release. Until they do, the new rating is simply a meaningless number they might as well have pulled from Berman's @$$.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 11:00 AM
QBR is an utter bull**** stat with so many subjective factors even a sociologist would give it the stink-eye.

Give me enough free parameters and I can model anything, especially if I never have to tell you what those parameters are and what they mean.

Advanced stats are popular in baseball, soccer, and basketball. They use formulations that they believe include the factors that identify the characteristics of great players.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 11:02 AM
In other news.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7081061/nfl-week-5-total-qbr-season-leaders

How's Kevin Kolb working for you AZ.

Lulz

Arizona will have another red-and-white Cardinal playing QB for them next year.

v2micca
10-11-2011, 11:44 AM
Advanced stats are popular in baseball, soccer, and basketball. They use formulations that they believe include the factors that identify the characteristics of great players.

The difference being, those stats have established and open formulas that allow for oversight. Even if I don't agree with the manner in which a particular statistic chooses to weight a particular metric I can see that it is being applied uniformly.

As gyldenlove noted, ESPN is free to alter parameters on the metric and massage the numbers until they receive a result that conforms with their narrative. With no transparency into the statistic, there is no way to know for certain that they are applying it consistently and not cooking the books.

I am reminded of the ending of Two for the Money (terrible movie) Pacino and McConaughey are on some news piece hyping their sports consultant firm going on and on about their advanced analytics and precise methods for determining the outcome. Afterwards, they go out back and flip a coin to determine which team they are backing. Until ESPN shows me a concrete formula, they may as well be flipping coins to generate this number.

epicSocialism4tw
10-11-2011, 12:06 PM
The difference being, those stats have established and open formulas that allow for oversight. Even if I don't agree with the manner in which a particular statistic chooses to weight a particular metric I can see that it is being applied uniformly.

If they don't have their metrics available for review, then by all means its suspect.

Maybe they are waiting on a patent?

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 12:13 PM
I'm pretty sure this is not what he was looking for. I think he wants the same thing I want, the formula used to calculate the final number. Specifically, what metrics go in, how they were measured, how are they weighted, and the precise methodology used to calculate the final number. This is information that ESPN is not willing to release. Until they do, the new rating is simply a meaningless number they might as well have pulled from Berman's @$$.

What I am saying is one is a passer rating, that only judges a QBs passing. Do you or do you not understand that QBs do more than passing to win games?

Did you watch Elway play? Do you know there are those committed to saying how overrrated he was cause he had a 79 rating? Do you know he himself was never thatgreat in the pocket? His completion % was never that great.

Do you understand that this QBR actually illuminated those qualities other than just passing that gives a better perspective on how he was the winningest QB of all time when he retired?

I cant understand why so many of you wouldnt want more things included with what a QB does to contributing to wins. Really, I dont get the flack from some of you, and level of ridicule you have for it. Especially when that QBR elevates the accomplishments of Elway. Just confused by it. :kiddingme

v2micca
10-11-2011, 12:40 PM
What I am saying is one is a passer rating, that only judges a QBs passing. Do you or do you not understand that QBs do more than passing to win games?

Did you watch Elway play? Do you know there are those committed to saying how overrrated he was cause he had a 79 rating? Do you know he himself was never thatgreat in the pocket? His completion % was never that great.

Do you understand that this QBR actually illuminated those qualities other than just passing that gives a better perspective on how he was the winningest QB of all time when he retired?

I cant understand why so many of you wouldnt want more things included with what a QB does to contributing to wins. Really, I dont get the flack from some of you, and level of ridicule you have for it. Especially when that QBR elevates the accomplishments of Elway. Just confused by it. :kiddingme


We are talking past each other at this point. I have acknowledged the need and applauded the effort to create metrics that more accurately measure how much a quarterback contributes to his team winning. I do want more factors included in a QB rating. I do want a QB rating that evaluates scrambling, hard-count ability, and all the other wonderful little factors that contribute to a winning effort. You are are right, the current Passer Rating is wholly inadequate a tool for measuring success. You are right, I agree with you. Did you get that? Now, please get this.

I. DON'T. TRUST. ESPN.

They have provided no transparency into how this new statistic is calculated. They have no oversight to ensure that what-ever formula they are using is applied consistently and fairly. What they do have is and agenda to ensure that statistics they provide back the narrative they wish to construct. That's what you call a conflict of interest. I refuse to accept the QBR numbers provided by ESPN as being any more valid their weekly power rankings. Until they provide me evidence to the contrary, its just an opinion, not a statistic.

Popps
10-11-2011, 12:47 PM
Apparently you missed that nifty screen to Moreno.

Great pass, sold it perfectly... and what a great play-call. (No one gives any credit for play-calls when they work.)

That said, his accuracy was rough on a few basic NFL throws.

Not hating on the kid, just hoping he can improve that aspect of his game... quickly. I expect he will, and I expect the staff will start working on higher percentage passes to help him ease into a game flow. It does seem like he starts off shaky in most games, even when he started a few in a row. He's a slow starter. But, he's a great finisher. So, again... it's just about game-planning ways to utilize what he can do. But, he's got to hit open receivers.

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 01:37 PM
We are talking past each other at this point. I have acknowledged the need and applauded the effort to create metrics that more accurately measure how much a quarterback contributes to his team winning. I do want more factors included in a QB rating. I do want a QB rating that evaluates scrambling, hard-count ability, and all the other wonderful little factors that contribute to a winning effort. You are are right, the current Passer Rating is wholly inadequate a tool for measuring success. You are right, I agree with you. Did you get that? Now, please get this.

I. DON'T. TRUST. ESPN.

They have provided no transparency into how this new statistic is calculated. They have no oversight to ensure that what-ever formula they are using is applied consistently and fairly. What they do have is and agenda to ensure that statistics they provide back the narrative they wish to construct. That's what you call a conflict of interest. I refuse to accept the QBR numbers provided by ESPN as being any more valid their weekly power rankings. Until they provide me evidence to the contrary, its just an opinion, not a statistic.

Yeah, BSPN is a joke. I am thinking they may decide to subtract 10 points from Tebow for being Tebow so they can push their agenda forward. Both agendas in this case.

TheReverend
10-11-2011, 01:44 PM
Arizona will have another red-and-white Cardinal playing QB for them next year.

http://menversus.com/images/bertstare.jpg

bendog
10-11-2011, 01:54 PM
Yeah, BSPN is a joke. I am thinking they may decide to subtract 10 points from Tebow for being Tebow so they can push their agenda forward. Both agendas in this case.

yes the promote a gay agenda and cospire against white christian males! It's clear.

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 02:22 PM
yes the promote a gay agenda and cospire against white christian males! It's clear.

Is this a looking glass denial thing again?

Are you the only Bronco fan to think there isnt a clear double standard towards Tebow? Want me to list them. Maybe you can explain why the double standard. Why is it so fashionable for reporters to crush Tebow?Ok, I guess you need to know the double standard.

There is and always has been a disgusting double standard when judging Tebow. There is a long long list. They incessantly talk about the 4 for 10 completion %. Forget that one incomplete was a spike to stop the clock, one was a hail Mary pass and another could have been caught.

Have you seen any of those BSPN analysts talking about Bradford passing under 50% or Newton going 16 for 31 on Sunday? No, I didnt hear any of it. Hoge talks about the fact that Tebow is 1-2 as a starter and he lost last Sunday regardless of the come back. You think he said anything about Newton being 1-4 or Bradford being 0-4 this year? No, not a word. They hate him. WHy? Bible verses and a 30 second commercial. Hoge also lied blatantly when he said Quinn out played Tebow this preseason. He is confused, as usual. Quinn having a 70 rating and Tebow having a 108 rating isnt Quinn out playing Tebow. Oh yeah, they played the same competition.

Never mind that. It all about the 7 on 7 drills for those haters. As though football is a 7 on 7 game. We all know Goodell wants it to be 7 on 7, but it isnt. Not yet anyway.

Like I said. I can present facts, and the double standards. Like Stan on South Park says, everything is utter crap. It is put up or shut up and I am hoping he succeeds like I havent wished for anyone ever.

bendog
10-11-2011, 02:45 PM
Is this a looking glass denial thing again?

Are you the only Bronco fan to think there isnt a clear double standard towards Tebow? Want me to list them. Maybe you can explain why the double standard. Why is it so fashionable for reporters to crush Tebow?Ok, I guess you need to know the double standard.

There is and always has been a disgusting double standard when judging Tebow. There is a long long list. They incessantly talk about the 4 for 10 completion %. Forget that one incomplete was a spike to stop the clock, one was a hail Mary pass and another could have been caught.

Have you seen any of those BSPN analysts talking about Bradford passing under 50% or Newton going 16 for 31 on Sunday? No, I didnt hear any of it. Hoge talks about the fact that Tebow is 1-2 as a starter and he lost last Sunday regardless of the come back. You think he said anything about Newton being 1-4 or Bradford being 0-4 this year? No, not a word. They hate him. WHy? Bible verses and a 30 second commercial. Hoge also lied blatantly when he said Quinn out played Tebow this preseason. He is confused, as usual. Quinn having a 70 rating and Tebow having a 108 rating isnt Quinn out playing Tebow. Oh yeah, they played the same competition.

Never mind that. It all about the 7 on 7 drills for those haters. As though football is a 7 on 7 game. We all know Goodell wants it to be 7 on 7, but it isnt. Not yet anyway.

Like I said. I can present facts, and the double standards. Like Stan on South Park says, everything is utter crap. It is put up or shut up and I am hoping he succeeds like I havent wished for anyone ever.

I think you have a chip on your shoulder. Tebow's popularity is due to the cult of tebow, rather than anything he's done in the NFL. You think Espn is prejudiced against white (apparnlty not black or hispanic) christians and promotes a gay agenda ... whatever the **** that is. kiss my ass.

That said, I hope Tebow develops into a decent qb who can Denver to the championship

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 02:53 PM
I think you have a chip on your shoulder. Tebow's popularity is due to the cult of tebow, rather than anything he's done in the NFL. You think Espn is prejudiced against white (apparnlty not black or hispanic) christians and promotes a gay agenda ... whatever the **** that is. kiss my ass.

That said, I hope Tebow develops into a decent qb who can Denver to the championship

Oh, I am allowed to curse on here and insult? Great....dick. You may think I have a chip and hell yeah I do. Why dont you? Did you attempt to explainthe blatant double standard?

Oh, right you dont think there is a clear double standard for all things. Lets see....hmmmm. They just fired Hank Williams for what? He didnt actually say Obama was Hitler. Never mind that ****.

How about what Jacobson said at a PUBLIC roast? Oh you dont know what she said? Ok. Here is some of the quote.

"f... Notre dame"
"f....touchdown Jesus"
"f.... Jesus."

She was suspended. Jemele Hill compared the Celtics staff to Hitler. She was suspended.

Oh, right there is no double standard for Tebow and it isnt for the reason I said.

Kiss your ass? What ever.

TheDave
10-11-2011, 03:04 PM
Another new Florida fan... Yay!

BMF Bronco
10-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Here's a simple stat.

Orton- produced one field goal.

Tebow- produced two TDs, nearly completed game tying two point conversion, then drove them into range of a makeable final play with :01 left.

I'm not sure what that stat would be called but i'll take Tebow.

that's silly talk, what matters here is how he looks while passing! :afro:

BlueandOrange32
10-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Another new Florida fan... Yay!

Well considering Ihate the Gators, being that I played at FSU, I guess you are wrong.

True? Yeah, true.

Mile High Mojoe
10-11-2011, 03:59 PM
Well one is a PASSER rating and the other takes other stuff into account.

There is other stuff the QB does after all that contributes to wins.

Cracks me up, if this stat was in Orton's favor I'm sure it would be a meaningful stat wouldn't it?

houghtam
10-11-2011, 04:18 PM
Whether you agree with the QBR stat or not (personally I like it better than the traditional quarterback rating, which doesn't mean jack), this article http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/28394/tebows-diverse-skills-boost-total-qbr-2 was a pretty interesting read.

I also laughed out loud at this gem from a John Clayton article ( http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7087660/tim-tebow-replaces-kyle-orton-denver-broncos-starting-quarterback-john-fox-says ) written earlier today :

"The timing of the move is unique, considering the team Tebow will make his 2011 starting debut against. The Dolphins, who lost Chad Henne for the season with a shoulder injury, had been trying to trade for benched starter Kyle Orton before the start of training camp.

The trade deadline is Oct. 18, but it would seem unlikely the Broncos would trade Orton to Miami and have him potentially start against Tebow."

Why the eff WOULDN'T we want Kyle Orton to start against us? 34-10 Broncos, with a KO pick 6 and 2 fumbles from his patented fetal position sack, courtesy of Von Miller.

Dedhed
10-11-2011, 04:27 PM
In other news.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7081061/nfl-week-5-total-qbr-season-leaders

How's Kevin Kolb working for you AZ.

Lulz
Somewhere there's a post of mine labeling Kolb my #1 overrated player going into 2011. Followed closely by Michael Vick and then Peyton Hills.

I should play the lottery, or maybe write fortune cookies.

OrangeSe7en
10-11-2011, 04:27 PM
Yeah, I still don't trust that stat. It remains a magic made up number as far as I am concerned.

And the old QB rating isnt?

Dedhed
10-11-2011, 04:34 PM
Whether you agree with the QBR stat or not (personally I like it better than the traditional quarterback rating, which doesn't mean jack), this article http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/28394/tebows-diverse-skills-boost-total-qbr-2 was a pretty interesting read.

I also laughed out loud at this gem from a John Clayton article ( http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7087660/tim-tebow-replaces-kyle-orton-denver-broncos-starting-quarterback-john-fox-says ) written earlier today :

"The timing of the move is unique, considering the team Tebow will make his 2011 starting debut against. The Dolphins, who lost Chad Henne for the season with a shoulder injury, had been trying to trade for benched starter Kyle Orton before the start of training camp.

The trade deadline is Oct. 18, but it would seem unlikely the Broncos would trade Orton to Miami and have him potentially start against Tebow."

Why the eff WOULDN'T we want Kyle Orton to start against us? 34-10 Broncos, with a KO pick 6 and 2 fumbles from his patented fetal position sack, courtesy of Von Miller.
I would love to see that come to pass. Can you imagine if Tebow's first start was against Orton. Even Walt Disney might wake up for that story.

v2micca
10-11-2011, 06:37 PM
And the old QB rating isnt?

One can argue that the current Passer Efficiency rating is a meaningless number that fails to accurately gauge how a quarterback contributes to his team's victories. But, it is derived from measurable and quantifiable numbers that be verified independently of the source posting the current QB ratings.

ESPN's QBR is just a number that they throw at us while telling us to trust them that it is an accurate measure of the player's performance. For all we know they could be tossing darts at a board to come up with the number.

OrangeSe7en
10-11-2011, 06:44 PM
One can argue that the current Passer Efficiency rating is a meaningless number that fails to accurately gauge how a quarterback contributes to his team's victories. But, it is derived from measurable and quantifiable numbers that be verified independently of the source posting the current QB ratings.

ESPN's QBR is just a number that they throw at us while telling us to trust them that it is an accurate measure of the player's performance. For all we know they could be tossing darts at a board to come up with the number.

Both are derived from the same basic data. Both interject some form of bias through arbitrarily weighting the formulas.

houghtam
10-11-2011, 07:32 PM
Somewhere there's a post of mine labeling Kolb my #1 overrated player going into 2011. Followed closely by Michael Vick and then Peyton Hills.

I should play the lottery, or maybe write fortune cookies.

"Peyton Hillis is too dumb to learn the offense...in bed."

"Michael Vick is a dog lover...in bed."

Yeah, that could work.

houghtam
10-11-2011, 07:40 PM
One can argue that the current Passer Efficiency rating is a meaningless number that fails to accurately gauge how a quarterback contributes to his team's victories. But, it is derived from measurable and quantifiable numbers that be verified independently of the source posting the current QB ratings.

ESPN's QBR is just a number that they throw at us while telling us to trust them that it is an accurate measure of the player's performance. For all we know they could be tossing darts at a board to come up with the number.

Entertainment and Sports Programming Network.

Yep, still there.

They're not selling you the stat as gospel. They're simply saying that it's their attempt at a better measure of how a quarterback contributes to the most important stat (aka wins).

Verifiable/quantifiable or not, the current passer efficiency rating is a crock, and I could get a better measure of a quarterback from 100 monkeys with 100 abacuses (abaci?).

gyldenlove
10-11-2011, 07:42 PM
One can argue that the current Passer Efficiency rating is a meaningless number that fails to accurately gauge how a quarterback contributes to his team's victories. But, it is derived from measurable and quantifiable numbers that be verified independently of the source posting the current QB ratings.

ESPN's QBR is just a number that they throw at us while telling us to trust them that it is an accurate measure of the player's performance. For all we know they could be tossing darts at a board to come up with the number.

What makes the ESPN QPR so truly useless is the fact that they have people subjectively evaluating plays and games to determine to what extend the QB made a good play and based on point spread if the team should have won or not. There is no determinism, there is no reproducibility and ultimately there is no value.

The old passer rating reflects to some extend the success of a passer weighing passing TDs, passing yards, interceptions, completion percent and yards per attempt - as a general rule above 90 is good, above 100 is really good, but of course since it is only a passer rating it does not take into account things such as sacks, fumbles and rushing, which is the biggest limitation.

Just as with football outsiders DVOA and similar meaningless statistics when you evaluate performance in any other way than purely by looking at the tangible numbers you end up moving into the realm of draft evaluators where it is all gut feeling and tea leaves.

TonyR
10-11-2011, 07:46 PM
Whether you agree with the QBR stat or not (personally I like it better than the traditional quarterback rating, which doesn't mean jack), this article http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/28394/tebows-diverse-skills-boost-total-qbr-2 was a pretty interesting read.


I saw this too. Probably worth giving a fuller tease:


Why QBR favored Tebow over Rodgers

Tim Tebow did enough Sunday as a relief quarterback to convince Denver Broncos coach John Fox to make him the starting quarterback. The five drives Tebow led in the second half against the San Diego Chargers resulted in two touchdowns and a Total QBR of 83.2. Maintained over a full season, that level of rating would identify a quarterback as a “Pro Bowl candidate.”

Tebow’s rating was also slightly better Sunday than the 82.1 achieved by the Green Bay Packers Aaron Rodgers, who sliced up the Atlanta Falcons for 396 yards and two TDs. Some fans have asked how it was possible for Tebow to have the better rating.

Here’s why:

Read the rest here.........http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/28374/tebows-diverse-skills-boost-total-qbr

v2micca
10-11-2011, 08:37 PM
Both are derived from the same basic data. Both interject some form of bias through arbitrarily weighting the formulas.

Are they? ESPN won't say definitively. As such, we don't really know what data they use to calculate their QBR. That is one of my fundamental issues with it.

Dedhed
10-11-2011, 08:44 PM
let's add passer rating and QBR and divide by two and see what happens.

OrangeSe7en
10-11-2011, 09:54 PM
Are they? ESPN won't say definitively. As such, we don't really know what data they use to calculate their QBR. That is one of my fundamental issues with it.

All these formulas involve some kind of weighting.

alkemical
10-12-2011, 07:05 AM
Well, this "metric" has caused 3 pages worth of posts of people talking about ESPN...I think they succeeded.

AlphaSeirra
10-12-2011, 08:50 AM
Well, this "metric" has caused 3 pages worth of posts of people talking about ESPN...I think they succeeded.

And since this thread is apparently dying over it, it remains an excellent place for this mornings rant: ;)

Gotta just love AOL Sporting News :clown: writers....

From another genius (i.e. media moron imo) on AOL, Vinnie da Lyer -- "Fox, however, is an old-school coach
who believes more in defense and the running game than a prolific passing offense."

Hey Vinn ole buddy, now explain why Fox drafted Jimmy 'da pickle' Clausen, who won squat while at neutered lame,
and then left him in as the starter while he racked up 3 TD's to 9 Ints and he couldn't run a lick?

But at Denver, Fox wouldn't start Tebow, who threw 5 TD's to just 3 Ints, plus did the 'old school' 5.3 ypc rushing
with 6 more TD's while having ZERO lost possession fumbles?

Vinn = Doh! :nutkick

Vinn - "Although Orton is the more 'polished' passer," -- (while he ignores the preseason pass efficiency ratings
of Orton 104 to Tebow 108), and continues to ramble on with the usual media moron bs.
-- I'm guessing that 'polished' has nothing to do with the actual 'production' on the field? --thwack

'Hot' Polish was 6 of 13 (46.1%) for 34 yds (5.6 yds/comp) with an Interception.

While 'Cold' Production was 4 of 10 (40%) for 78 yds (19.75 yds/comp) with a TD.

Production was also 6 for 38 yds, 6.3 yds/run with another TD.

* Notice that Productions yds/play with 'old school' >running<, was better (6.3 yds/carry) than
Polished's (5.3 yds/comp) passing, and with a production TD to a polished Int. :yayaya:

So maybe the fans are more interested in the 'production' than in the media morons 'polished' up BS. ^5

Now, just take a look at ole Vinn's media moron spin BS;
"Where Tebow falls miles short of Elway is with his arm and passing mechanics."
Notice that he doesn't claim that a rookie Elway's 'RESULTS' (production) were better Tebow's, just that
his 'polished' mechanics, (that resulted in Elway's 7 TD's to 14 Ints) were better, (read more polished).

When it comes to 'POLISHED' it's good if you can tell the difference between Chit & Shinola! ^5