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BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 02:52 AM
Anyone notice Mcdaniels first rounders contribute?

They contributed strong yesterday. It is pretty funny to me. I think Moreno has absolute skills and the level of hatred towards him is a little nuts to me.

I know he fumbles. Let me add this in regards to that. Hillis led the NFL last year with 8 fumbles.

Now what? Moreno does produce well when healthy. He has versatile skills and he does run strong.

I will also add this team could and should be 4-1 right now. I know I hate woulda shoulda and coulda. IMO if Tebow is starting like many of us thought he should, they are 4-1 and 3 losses are right at the feet of Orton.

Amazes me, how fans are right and coaches that get paid so well are wrong.

Doggcow
10-10-2011, 03:21 AM
IMAGINE IF WE HAD ED REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED

Drek
10-10-2011, 04:24 AM
I've been saying for a while on here that McDaniels drafts weren't the problem, it was the rampant power trip that led to him castrating his assistants, chasing off the single best asset a young offensive minded HC could ask for in Mike Nolan, and then trying to pound square pegs into round holes at various positions (Ayers at OLB, Moreno as a workhorse back, etc.)

He then also let his ego get the better of him with how he acted towards fans, responded to our need at DT, handled Alphonso Smith, etc.. But none of that changes how well he manuevered up and down in the draft to get his targets. The only target of his we know he failed to secure was BJ Raji because he couldn't get up past the Packers.

Now with quality coaching we're seeing Beadles, Walton, Ayers, Moreno and Decker find their homes on the roster, with Tebow finally getting a real shot at leading this team.

I just wish he hadn't cast off Smith so damn soon. I bet Allen would have made a good corner out of him here.

rock
10-10-2011, 07:09 AM
Weird to see how Moreno came to life all the sudden.

I have to say that I'm WAY impressed with McGahee. Dude still has it.

rock
10-10-2011, 07:14 AM
DOUBLE POST

DrFate
10-10-2011, 07:17 AM
Moreno is a bust. He had a nice run yesterday. He's also playing second fiddle to a re-tread RB who is on his third stop.

Let's not get carried away by one play

gyldenlove
10-10-2011, 07:44 AM
Moreno is a bust. He had a nice run yesterday. He's also playing second fiddle to a re-tread RB who is on his third stop.

Let's not get carried away by one play

I have to agree here, one goot screen pass does not make Moreno a good pick all of a sudden, he needs to show WAY more than that.

jhns
10-10-2011, 07:49 AM
Moreno is a bust. He had a nice run yesterday. He's also playing second fiddle to a re-tread RB who is on his third stop.

Let's not get carried away by one play

Yup. I like Moreno when he is healthy but he needs to do a lot more to be worth a 12 pick.

Drek, wtf are you talking about? He had like 20 picks in the top three rounds of those two drafts. We have like two good players and a few showing promise. You are not very bright if you think those were good drafts.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 07:54 AM
I just wish he hadn't cast off Smith so damn soon. I bet Allen would have made a good corner out of him here.

How in the hell?

Alphonso has ALWAYS been horrible. He's FIFTH on the CB depth chart for Detroit--who frankly, is just a TAD deeper than Denver is at CB--and been ACTIVE for only one game this season (due to an injury to a non-starter lol).

Alphonso has nothing and is nothing and will never be anything.

And never had the potential to be anything.

DrFate
10-10-2011, 08:07 AM
Alphonso has nothing and is nothing and will never be anything.

And never had the potential to be anything.

How do you REALLY feel?

LOL

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 08:09 AM
How in the hell?

Alphonso has ALWAYS been horrible. He's FIFTH on the CB depth chart for Detroit--who frankly, is just a TAD deeper than Denver is at CB--and been ACTIVE for only one game this season (due to an injury to a non-starter lol).

Alphonso has nothing and is nothing and will never be anything.

And never had the potential to be anything.

To be fair, the Broncos in 2008 had 6 ints as a team. That was by far the least and a priority for the Broncos.

Alphonso Smith is the all time leader for ints in the ACC and he has same approximate dimensions as Antoine Winfield.

I didnt like the pick at the time, and then I saw the reality and potential of what he could be.

He did leave for Detroit and he had 5 ints one for a pick 6 in like 8 games last year.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20, but there was a rhyme and reason for the pick. Mcdaniels was should have given him more time. Especially over Nate Jones.

fontaine
10-10-2011, 08:12 AM
Moreno is a bust. He had a nice run yesterday. He's also playing second fiddle to a re-tread RB who is on his third stop.

Let's not get carried away by one play

Exactly. It wasn't Moreno running but catching the ball on a well executed screen with Kuper steam rolling alongside him.

Say what you want but Moreno has been outplayed and outperformed by an aging journey man RB all because McGahee has better vision and patience than this dance machine.

At this point Moreno is a younger version of Maroney and it shows just how idiotic McDaniels is when he made the same stupid mistake twice.

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 08:13 AM
Exactly. It wasn't Moreno running but catching the ball on a well executed screen with Kuper steam rolling alongside him.

Say what you want but Moreno has been outplayed and outperformed by an aging journey man RB all because McGahee has better vision and patience than this dance machine.

At this point Moreno is a younger version of Maroney and it shows just how idiotic McDaniels is when he made the same stupid mistake twice.

No, I think he is better than that and he did break a tackle to get into the end zone. You arent going to give any credit to Moreno what so ever?

Really?

gyldenlove
10-10-2011, 08:19 AM
To be fair, the Broncos in 2008 had 6 ints as a team. That was by far the least and a priority for the Broncos.

Alphonso Smith is the all time leader for ints in the ACC and he has same approximate dimensions as Antoine Winfield.

I didnt like the pick at the time, and then I saw the reality and potential of what he could be.

He did leave for Detroit and he had 5 ints one for a pick 6 in like 8 games last year.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20, but there was a rhyme and reason for the pick. Mcdaniels was should have given him more time. Especially over Nate Jones.

Alphonso Smith was small, slow and only good at playing zone coverage where he could cheat inside to get under passes - we knew that before the draft.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 08:23 AM
To be fair, the Broncos in 2008 had 6 ints as a team. That was by far the least and a priority for the Broncos.

Alphonso Smith is the all time leader for ints in the ACC and he has same approximate dimensions as Antoine Winfield.

I didnt like the pick at the time, and then I saw the reality and potential of what he could be.

He did leave for Detroit and he had 5 ints one for a pick 6 in like 8 games last year.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20, but there was a rhyme and reason for the pick. Mcdaniels was should have given him more time. Especially over Nate Jones.

lol @ "potential"

Guy managed to get some picks for Wake ****ing Forest in the ACC, is a midget playing in a big WR world these days, and excels at literally nothing.

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 08:36 AM
lol @ "potential"

Guy managed to get some picks for Wake ****ing Forest in the ACC, is a midget playing in a big WR world these days, and excels at literally nothing.

Whatever "reverend." I think it is pretty funny that you think it is pretty funny that he is the all time leader for ints in the ACC.

ANtoine Winfield is about the same size.

I am just saying I understand what they were seeing at the time. Do you have that capability, or are you "LOLing" cause you didnt consider all of the factors?

I think I know what you are going to say now. You think I am saying he is as good as Winfield. I am saying there was no reason to think that he couldnt have been that type of player at the time.

I actually saw him play at Pahokee HS. He was pretty damn good and he broke Anquan Boldins record for TDs at that HS.

Drek
10-10-2011, 08:36 AM
How in the hell?

Alphonso has ALWAYS been horrible. He's FIFTH on the CB depth chart for Detroit--who frankly, is just a TAD deeper than Denver is at CB--and been ACTIVE for only one game this season (due to an injury to a non-starter lol).

Alphonso has nothing and is nothing and will never be anything.

And never had the potential to be anything.

He broke his foot during off-season conditioning and has missed all of camp, pre-season, etc.. Last week was the first time he's been deemed healthy enough to play and Jim Schwartz himself said that when he's 100% he is their nickel CB.

Never mind the five picks in about 12 games last year (better than our entire secondary on a per game basis). Jim Schwartz knows a thing or two about defense and just carried Smith on the active roster instead of the PUP because he wanted him back as soon as Smith cleared. If that isn't a positive affirmation I don't know what is.

He was significantly better last season than every corner on this team not named Champ Bailey. You put Joseph or even Richard Marshall opposite Champ and Smith in the nickel and this defense looks a whole lot better.

Smilin Assassin
10-10-2011, 09:19 AM
I'm not a Moreno hater. Actually like the kid and still hold out hope he'll figure the NFL out.

But, yesterday didn't show me anything I didn't already know. Knowshon is a great receiver out of the backfield, and is also very good @ blitz pick-ups.

He needs to run more north and south like Willis did yesterday, though.

Considering McDaniels would throw the ball on every snap if he could, I think he knew eggs ackley what he was gettin' in Knowshon.

fontaine
10-10-2011, 09:23 AM
No, I think he is better than that and he did break a tackle to get into the end zone. You arent going to give any credit to Moreno what so ever?

Really?

A RB with a full head of steam breaking a DBs tackle who's stuck at the goal line is not something that's going to impress me a whole lot.

Those sort of things are base expectations for me. But then again I did have the pleasure of watching guys like TD, Anderson, Droughns, Portis etc.

I'd be far more impressed if Moreno hit the hole hard and was more decisive in judging his lanes instead of running hesitant and getting ankle tripped all the time.

vonqkilla
10-10-2011, 09:34 AM
I've been saying for a while on here that McDaniels drafts weren't the problem, it was the rampant power trip that led to him castrating his assistants, chasing off the single best asset a young offensive minded HC could ask for in Mike Nolan, and then trying to pound square pegs into round holes at various positions (Ayers at OLB, Moreno as a workhorse back, etc.)
.

The drafts set us back years. Everything else sucked as well.

broncocalijohn
10-10-2011, 09:37 AM
Drek and OP,

Those drafts were horrible by not only some of those picks but guys we traded to get additional picks. Moreno has one play and he did it great. ONE PLAY! Why? Because he is no longer the starter. A running back is supposed to be dominating at taking a handoff. We all know Moreno's strength is 3rd down receiver. We still need our 1st round pick to be healthy and be able to run through a line. So many people go gaga over one play, one series or one game. Moreno has been here for 2 1/4 years! We don't even know how Tebow will perform in a full game. The one thing we got out of yesterday's loss was that we have a new found hope in some of our guys.

Thank God some of the posters (most I should say) in this thread are level headed. McDaniels drafts not the problem? I guess ****ting coaching ranks up there too.

Smiling Assassin27
10-10-2011, 09:45 AM
Moreno is a bust. He had a nice run yesterday. He's also playing second fiddle to a re-tread RB who is on his third stop.

Let's not get carried away by one play


yeah, give him props for the TD but the run itself was typical moreno--impatient, almost running up the back of his lead blocker. knowshon--next ronnie harmon?

Smiling Assassin27
10-10-2011, 09:47 AM
oh, and two words:

alphonso smith

that's all you really need to know about mcd's drafts.

DrFate
10-10-2011, 09:50 AM
yeah, give him props for the TD but the run itself was typical moreno--impatient, almost running up the back of his lead blocker. knowshon--next ronnie harmon?

He is what he is - a decent third down back. That's all he's ever been. He's got good hands. He displays no burst, poor balance, and no vision. He doesn't let the blocks develop, he gets tackled by the turf monster all too often, and he's made of glass.

Other than that he's an every down back.

DBroncos4life
10-10-2011, 10:00 AM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-_WdxUWX760" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fgtQEqKAOqY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bZGmdE0kaEw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DrFate
10-10-2011, 10:01 AM
And I didn't play BJGE yesterday in my fantasy league

BLAH

pricejj
10-10-2011, 10:13 AM
Anyone notice Mcdaniels first rounders contribute?

They contributed strong yesterday. It is pretty funny to me. I think Moreno has absolute skills and the level of hatred towards him is a little nuts to me.

I know he fumbles. Let me add this in regards to that. Hillis led the NFL last year with 8 fumbles.

Now what? Moreno does produce well when healthy. He has versatile skills and he does run strong.

I will also add this team could and should be 4-1 right now. I know I hate woulda shoulda and coulda. IMO if Tebow is starting like many of us thought he should, they are 4-1 and 3 losses are right at the feet of Orton.

Amazes me, how fans are right and coaches that get paid so well are wrong.

Moreno is a serviceable backup...

Ayers is what he was at Tennessee, a strongside DE, with ability to hold the LOS, and stop the run, while showing flashes in pressuring the QB, with minimal sack production...which is good enough for me.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 10:23 AM
Oh boy... Lets try this again

Now updated to include recent performances

2009
1- Knowshon Moreno – 3rd down back
1- Robert Ayers – Starter
2- Alphonso Smith - Gone
2- Darcel McBath - Gone
2- Richard Quinn - Gone
4- David Bruton - 3rd team
4- Seth Olsen - Gone
5- Kenny McKinley - RIP
6- Tom Brandstater – “Brandy”…”Brandy”
7- Blake Schlueter - Gone

2010
1-Demaryius Thomas - Injured
1-Tim Tebow – To be determined*
2-Zane Beadles – Starter
3-J.D. Walton – Starter
4-Eric Decker – 2nd WR (due to injuries)
5- Parrish Cox - Rapist
6- Eric Olsen - Gone
6- Syd'Quan Thompson – Injured
7-Jammie Kirlew, Indiana – Gone


19 picks = 3 starters and a ? at QB<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 10:28 AM
Oh boy... Lets try this again

Now updated to include recent performances

2009
1- Knowshon Moreno – 3rd down back
1- Robert Ayers – Starter
2- Alphonso Smith - Gone
2- Darcel McBath - Gone
2- Richard Quinn - Gone
4- David Bruton - 3rd team
4- Seth Olsen - Gone
5- Kenny McKinley - RIP
6- Tom Brandstater – “Brandy”…”Brandy”
7- Blake Schlueter - Gone

2010
1-Demaryius Thomas - Injured
1-Tim Tebow – To be determined*
2-Zane Beadles – Starter
3-J.D. Walton – Starter
4-Eric Decker – 2nd WR (due to injuries)
5- Parrish Cox - Rapist
6- Eric Olsen - Gone
6- Syd'Quan Thompson – Injured
7-Jammie Kirlew, Indiana – Gone


19 picks = 3 starters and a ? at QB<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

I just asked if anyone noticed that the first rounders contributed yesterday.

People seem upset that I pointed that out.

Fans, are just so strange. :kiddingme

TheDave
10-10-2011, 10:34 AM
I just asked if anyone noticed that the first rounders contributed yesterday.

People seem pissed a more point that out.

Fans, are just so strange. :kiddingme

Sorry but alluding to anything McD did that was positive is difficult for many to accept. Myself included.

I liked Knowshons 1 run, but he was in the process of running right up the backside of his blocker... and Ayers is looking like a solid but unspectacular DE. IMO I think Ayers will turn out to be the best of his 1st rounders.

Here is the benefit though. If Tebow turns out to be something, a lot of McD crap will be forgiven and forgotten.

DrFate
10-10-2011, 10:37 AM
Oh boy... Lets try this again

Now updated to include recent performances

2009
1- Knowshon Moreno – 3rd down back
1- Robert Ayers – Starter
2- Alphonso Smith - Gone
2- Darcel McBath - Gone
2- Richard Quinn - Gone
4- David Bruton - 3rd team
4- Seth Olsen - Gone
5- Kenny McKinley - RIP
6- Tom Brandstater – “Brandy”…”Brandy”
7- Blake Schlueter - Gone

2010
1-Demaryius Thomas - Injured
1-Tim Tebow – To be determined*
2-Zane Beadles – Starter
3-J.D. Walton – Starter
4-Eric Decker – 2nd WR (due to injuries)
5- Parrish Cox - Rapist
6- Eric Olsen - Gone
6- Syd'Quan Thompson – Injured
7-Jammie Kirlew, Indiana – Gone


19 picks = 3 starters and a ? at QB<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

With the exception of the 2 OLinemen, not one of these guys has actually validated the draft pick(s) that were spent to acquire them (and I'm not sure that Beadles/Walton will be on the team once Fox has another draft under his belt)

TheDave
10-10-2011, 10:44 AM
With the exception of the 2 OLinemen, not one of these guys has actually validated the draft pick(s) that were spent to acquire them (and I'm not sure that Beadles/Walton will be on the team once Fox has another draft under his belt)

JMO, but with Ayers playing his real position now, he could develop into a solid DE.

Considering he was picked about 17ish that seems like a legit risk and reward.

DrFate
10-10-2011, 10:48 AM
JMO, but with Ayers playing his real position now, he could develop into a solid DE.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ayers

He was picked 18th. I don't disgree with the sentiment, his play to date has created high hopes that he'll become a solid player. I think the notion that he would be an elite player has faded to nothing.

If he's a solid starter for 10 years, I'd think the #18 overall isn't too outlandish. As of today, he is still working towards validating the pick. Hey - he's still on the roster - that's more than some. :)

edog24
10-10-2011, 10:48 AM
And I didn't play BJGE yesterday in my fantasy league

BLAH

I did the same thing! I started Cedric Benson instead, grrr.

boltaneer
10-10-2011, 10:54 AM
Good thing the Broncos drafted Moreno so the Chargers wouldn't take him.

Sorry, I forget who said that but it still cracks me up.

24champ
10-10-2011, 11:00 AM
Oh boy... Lets try this again

Now updated to include recent performances

2009
1- Knowshon Moreno – 3rd down back
1- Robert Ayers – Starter
2- Alphonso Smith - Gone
2- Darcel McBath - Gone
2- Richard Quinn - Gone
4- David Bruton - 3rd team
4- Seth Olsen - Gone
5- Kenny McKinley - RIP
6- Tom Brandstater – “Brandy”…”Brandy”
7- Blake Schlueter - Gone


McD only had what, 30 days to come up with a draft plan while most of the league had a full year? This is where Bowlen ****ed up by not having one of the Goodman's be GM.

Drek
10-10-2011, 11:03 AM
Sorry but alluding to anything McD did that was positive is difficult for many to accept. Myself included.

I liked Knowshons 1 run, but he was in the process of running right up the backside of his blocker... and Ayers is looking like a solid but unspectacular DE. IMO I think Ayers will turn out to be the best of his 1st rounders.

Here is the benefit though. If Tebow turns out to be something, a lot of McD crap will be forgiven and forgotten.

Thats just the problem I'm trying to point out in threads like this though.

You can't just say everything he did was dog **** and pull a 180 and forgive most of it if Tebow looks good. A reasonable perspective needs to be maintained regardless of outcome.

McDaniels did a TON of **** very wrong. But he did generally draft guys where they were projected to go, he moved up and down in the draft to get his guys, and he spread those picks around to a lot of need areas.

Now maybe that was more a trait of the scouting department (who is still here) but regardless, those drafts took players who coming in seemed very much worth the spots they were drafted at. No Darius Watts out of nowhere picks, no Terry Pierce using a 2nd to win a contract negotiation types, no trade ups to select a Jarvis Moss, etc..

The player development is what failed us, not the drafting process.

McBath is a perfect example of this. As a rookie he showed some flashes with Nolan but got bit by the injury bug late in the year. Then we change DCs, he's frequently injured, and come this pre-season he's just as raw and undisciplined as a rookie. The staff failed to develop him. End result is he didn't grow enough to beat out rookies who were his equal on the field now with far more upside and contractual control remaining.

Ayers is an example of this as well. How does Robert Ayers go from looking lost his whole rookie season to showing a few early season flashes before regressing in year two, to now looking like one of the few long term pieces on our team? Spontaneous improvement? Not likely. But now he's getting superior coaching in a system better fitting his talents.

Beadles and Walton are growing by leaps and bounds every week. Are they just suddenly un-busting themselves, or has a proven OL coach in Magazu come in here and start developing them week after week?

McDaniels handcuffed all of his assistants so even the correct draft picks he'd made were spoiled by mismanagement. Being right on the ingredients to a cake doesn't change the outcome if you pour the batter into a pressure cooker and set it on high. You still completely ****ed up.

Saying McDaniels' drafts weren't bad isn't saying he should get a universal pass or that he should never have been fired. Its just recognizing that we have some better pieces to work with here than you'd think given how bad we've been for the past ~28 games or so.

I think its entirely possible we'll see Tebow, Decker, Beadles, Walton, and Ayers all be key starters to a good team here. Its also very possible that Thomas, Moreno, and Bruton play key roles. Instead of marginalizing them based on where they were drafted and what they've accomplished only two seasons into their careers we should instead be looking at why these classes are suddenly looking better three years out under a different HC.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:05 AM
Thats just the problem I'm trying to point out in threads like this though.

You can't just say everything he did was dog **** and pull a 180 and forgive most of it if Tebow looks good. A reasonable perspective needs to be maintained regardless of outcome.

McDaniels did a TON of **** very wrong. But he did generally draft guys where they were projected to go, he moved up and down in the draft to get his guys, and he spread those picks around to a lot of need areas.

Now maybe that was more a trait of the scouting department (who is still here) but regardless, those drafts took players who coming in seemed very much worth the spots they were drafted at. No Darius Watts out of nowhere picks, no Terry Pierce using a 2nd to win a contract negotiation types, no trade ups to select a Jarvis Moss, etc..

The player development is what failed us, not the drafting process.

McBath is a perfect example of this. As a rookie he showed some flashes with Nolan but got bit by the injury bug late in the year. Then we change DCs, he's frequently injured, and come this pre-season he's just as raw and undisciplined as a rookie. The staff failed to develop him.

Ayers is an example of this as well. How does Robert Ayers go from looking lost his whole rookie season to showing a few early season flashes before regressing in year two, to now looking like one of the few long term pieces on our team? Spontaneous improvement? Not likely. But now he's getting superior coaching in a system better fitting his talents.

Beadles and Walton are growing by leaps and bounds every week. Are they just suddenly un-busting themselves, or has a proven OL coach in Magazu come in here and start developing them week after week?

McDaniels handcuffed all of his assistants so even the correct draft picks he'd made were spoiled by mismanagement. Being right on the ingredients to a cake doesn't change the outcome if you pour the batter into a pressure cooker and set it on high. You still completely ****ed up.

Saying McDaniels' drafts weren't bad isn't saying he should get a universal pass or that he should never have been fired. Its just recognizing that we have some better pieces to work with here than you'd think given how bad we've been for the past ~28 games or so.

I think its entirely possible we'll see Tebow, Decker, Beadles, Walton, and Ayers all be key starters to a good team here. Its also very possible that Thomas, Moreno, and Bruton play key roles. Instead of marginalizing them based on where they were drafted and what they've accomplished only two seasons into their careers we should instead be looking at why these classes are suddenly looking better three years out under a different HC.

I know Drek, you like McD and you are determined to spliut enough hairs to make your point.

I get it, but like I keep telling you... trying to convince me that McD was something other than a complete disaster is a waste of your time.

jhns
10-10-2011, 11:06 AM
Oh boy... Lets try this again

Now updated to include recent performances

2009
1- Knowshon Moreno – 3rd down back
1- Robert Ayers – Starter
2- Alphonso Smith - Gone
2- Darcel McBath - Gone
2- Richard Quinn - Gone
4- David Bruton - 3rd team
4- Seth Olsen - Gone
5- Kenny McKinley - RIP
6- Tom Brandstater – “Brandy”…”Brandy”
7- Blake Schlueter - Gone

2010
1-Demaryius Thomas - Injured
1-Tim Tebow – To be determined*
2-Zane Beadles – Starter
3-J.D. Walton – Starter
4-Eric Decker – 2nd WR (due to injuries)
5- Parrish Cox - Rapist
6- Eric Olsen - Gone
6- Syd'Quan Thompson – Injured
7-Jammie Kirlew, Indiana – Gone


19 picks = 3 starters and a ? at QB<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

Sorry frek. That is a lot of picks in early rounds with few results. You are reaching to try covering for your horrible McDaniels takes. No one will ever agree with you.

Drek
10-10-2011, 11:10 AM
I know Drek, you like McD and you are determined to spliut enough hairs to make your point.

I get it, but like I keep telling you... trying to convince me that McD was something other than a complete disaster is a waste of your time.

I've assumed there was no hope for you for a while since the concept of an objective opinion is foreign to you. Not just being objective yourself, but being completely unable to understand the process by which other people form objective opinions. That's a "you" problem though.

I'm just adding a rebuttal to your weak ass points for the sake of general discussion in this thread.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:13 AM
I've assumed there was no hope for you for a while since the concept of an objective opinion is foreign to you. Not just being objective yourself, but being completely unable to understand the process by which other people form objective opinions. That's a "you" problem though.

I'm just adding a rebuttal to your weak ass points for the sake of general discussion in this thread.

Thanks drek ive always enjoyed your 5 paragraph essays telling me McD was doing a swell job... Unfortunately the never had any merit and now they are just kind of sad.


FWIW... Maybe if you sent some of your prose to the McD family you might find more support.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 11:19 AM
He broke his foot during off-season conditioning and has missed all of camp, pre-season, etc.. Last week was the first time he's been deemed healthy enough to play and Jim Schwartz himself said that when he's 100% he is their nickel CB.

Never mind the five picks in about 12 games last year (better than our entire secondary on a per game basis). Jim Schwartz knows a thing or two about defense and just carried Smith on the active roster instead of the PUP because he wanted him back as soon as Smith cleared. If that isn't a positive affirmation I don't know what is.

He was significantly better last season than every corner on this team not named Champ Bailey. You put Joseph or even Richard Marshall opposite Champ and Smith in the nickel and this defense looks a whole lot better.

If that were true, why hasnt he even sniffed an injury report since week 2?

Out week 1-2
http://www.lions101.com/2011/09/11/detroit-lions-injury-report-week-1/
http://www.lions101.com/2011/09/18/detroit-lions-injury-report-week-2/

3-5?
http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2011/9/24/2446061/lions-vikings-injury-report
http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2011/9/30/2461058/week-4-nfl-injury-report-cowboys-vs-lions
http://www.detroitlions.com/team/custom-injury-report.html

Specifically mentioned on week 3 lol:

The main thing that sticks out about the Lions' injury report to me is that Alphonso Smith is not listed on it. This doesn't necessarily mean he will play, but the Lions apparently no longer consider him injured. Hopefully that means he will be back soon even if he isn't active on Sunday.

He ****ing blows. There's no reason this should even be up for debate.

fontaine
10-10-2011, 11:19 AM
I think its entirely possible we'll see Tebow, Decker, Beadles, Walton, and Ayers all be key starters to a good team here. Its also very possible that Thomas, Moreno, and Bruton play key roles. Instead of marginalizing them based on where they were drafted and what they've accomplished only two seasons into their careers we should instead be looking at why these classes are suddenly looking better three years out under a different HC.

But that's just it. Most people aren't marginalizing the players but McDaniels for being a crappy personnel evaluator.

Most people aren't sayiing Moreno sucks because he was 12th overall but because he has zero visions and dances too much. Just like people aren't ragging on Walton/Ayers etc for their draft status but their limitations on the field.

It's not hard to get a couple of decent starters with 8, yes 8 picks in the first two rounds in just two years, but it takes a special kind of stupid to move up to draft players like Quinn/Smith etc. And another special kind of stupid to get rid of smith a season later.

It takes stupidity of gargantuan proportions to spend a high 1st on Moreno who is at best a decent 3rd down back while you crap all over the OL by starting Hochstein/Stanley Daniels etc, and then compound that mistake by trading for an older, injury prone, categoric twin bust in Maroney, all while trading away the only decent back we had in Hillis for another bust in Quinn when you draft Tebow anyway.

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 11:25 AM
Sorry but alluding to anything McD did that was positive is difficult for many to accept. Myself included.

I liked Knowshons 1 run, but he was in the process of running right up the backside of his blocker... and Ayers is looking like a solid but unspectacular DE. IMO I think Ayers will turn out to be the best of his 1st rounders.

Here is the benefit though. If Tebow turns out to be something, a lot of McD crap will be forgiven and forgotten.

Oh, I didnt know that is the reason people seem upset for that reason.:stirstir:

I dont care what they may turn into or what they have or havent done. I said they contributed strong yesterday.

Thats all. Nothing more to be added.

Plus.....

The last 2 time pro bowler drafted by the Broncos in the first round was AL Wilson in 1999.

Yeah, that is a long period of general ineptitude that doesnt just include Mcdaniels. Shanahan is very much part of it too.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:28 AM
I completely agree shanny had his problems, but he has been gone for 3 offseasons now and our best players on offense and defense are still the ones he brought in.

So i don't waste much time trying to point a finger ot shanny.

BlueandOrange32
10-10-2011, 11:36 AM
I completely agree shanny had his problems, but he has been gone for 3 offseasons now and our best players on offense and defense are still the ones he brought in.

So i don't waste much time trying to point a finger ot shanny.

Nevertheless 3 first rounders contributed strong yesterday.

Drek
10-10-2011, 12:01 PM
If that were true, why hasnt he even sniffed an injury report since week 2?

"He’s not game-ready yet," coach Jim Schwartz admitted. "It’s still going to be a while for him, but it’s going to be sooner than six weeks, so we wanted to get him in the swing."

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5235/alphonso-smith

Rev's injury report googling > Jim Schwartz own quotes now. Awesome.

DBroncos4life
10-10-2011, 12:11 PM
My FF WRs sure do miss Smith covering them Ha!

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 12:31 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5235/alphonso-smith

Rev's injury report googling > Jim Schwartz own quotes now. Awesome.

Yup. Coaches never say positive things about their players.

Can you find Jim Schwartz trashing ANY of their players?

Nice work. Seriously. ::)

Popps
10-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Oh boy... Lets try this again

Now updated to include recent performances

2009
1- Knowshon Moreno – 3rd down back
1- Robert Ayers – Starter
2- Alphonso Smith - Gone
2- Darcel McBath - Gone
2- Richard Quinn - Gone
4- David Bruton - 3rd team
4- Seth Olsen - Gone
5- Kenny McKinley - RIP
6- Tom Brandstater – “Brandy”…”Brandy”
7- Blake Schlueter - Gone

2010
1-Demaryius Thomas - Injured
1-Tim Tebow – To be determined*
2-Zane Beadles – Starter
3-J.D. Walton – Starter
4-Eric Decker – 2nd WR (due to injuries)
5- Parrish Cox - Rapist
6- Eric Olsen - Gone
6- Syd'Quan Thompson – Injured
7-Jammie Kirlew, Indiana – Gone


19 picks = 3 starters and a ? at QB<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

In bold are guys who are making solid contributions or guys we're still hoping will. Again, probably too early for a definitive judgment on the draft, but we could certainly have done worse. (See our 2003/2004 drafts... someone posted it on another thread and upon seeing it, I vomited immediately on my keyboard.)

My thought has always been that if you can land a top flight starter, a solid starter and a solid ST's contributer... you've had a reasonable draft. If you look at the history of team drafts, it's VERY rare to see more than half of the picks panning out in a significant way.

Guys like Ayers, Decker, Moreno and Tebow will be a big part of our future, imo. These weren't great drafts, but BY FAR... they weren't the worst we've had in the last 10 years.

20(20) George Foster OT Georgia
2 19(51) Terry Pierce* ILB Kansas St.
4 11(108) Quentin Griffin HB Oklahoma
4 17(114) Nick Eason DT Clemson
4 31(128) Bryant McNeal OLB Clemson
5 22(157) Ben Claxton C Ole Miss
5 23(158) Adrian Madise WR TCU
6 21(194) Aaron Hunt DE Texas Tech
7 13(227) Clint Mitchell* DE Florida
7 21(235) Ahmaad Galloway HB Alabama

That, my friend... is what a bad draft looks like. 10 picks, all dog****. It's actually impressive to be able to screw up ALL 10 picks to that degree.

So, you can bash on our old coach... all good. But, some of his picks are still Broncos, and signs point to several of them being key factors for us going forward.

fontaine
10-10-2011, 03:34 PM
In bold are guys who are making solid contributions or guys we're still hoping will. Again, probably too early for a definitive judgment on the draft, but we could certainly have done worse. (See our 2003/2004 drafts... someone posted it on another thread and upon seeing it, I vomited immediately on my keyboard.)

My thought has always been that if you can land a top flight starter, a solid starter and a solid ST's contributer... you've had a reasonable draft. If you look at the history of team drafts, it's VERY rare to see more than half of the picks panning out in a significant way.

Guys like Ayers, Decker, Moreno and Tebow will be a big part of our future, imo. These weren't great drafts, but BY FAR... they weren't the worst we've had in the last 10 years.

20(20) George Foster OT Georgia
2 19(51) Terry Pierce* ILB Kansas St.
4 11(108) Quentin Griffin HB Oklahoma
4 17(114) Nick Eason DT Clemson
4 31(128) Bryant McNeal OLB Clemson
5 22(157) Ben Claxton C Ole Miss
5 23(158) Adrian Madise WR TCU
6 21(194) Aaron Hunt DE Texas Tech
7 13(227) Clint Mitchell* DE Florida
7 21(235) Ahmaad Galloway HB Alabama

That, my friend... is what a bad draft looks like. 10 picks, all dog****. It's actually impressive to be able to screw up ALL 10 picks to that degree.

So, you can bash on our old coach... all good. But, some of his picks are still Broncos, and signs point to several of them being key factors for us going forward.

Did you just compare a draft where Shanahan had just two late picks inside the first two rounds and a bunch of late rounders with the orgy of 1st/2nd round picks McD screwed up?

Wow. This is how dumb your post is:

Shanahan had 10 picks, half of them in the 5th or later.

McD had 5 picks in the first two rounds alone in the 2009 draft three of which aren't even on the team just two years on.

Popps
10-10-2011, 03:48 PM
I completely agree shanny had his problems, but he has been gone for 3 offseasons now and our best players on offense and defense are still the ones he brought in.

So i don't waste much time trying to point a finger ot shanny.

To be clear... the best player on defense is Champ Bailey, and he was acquired in a trade.... not drafted, if we're staying with the theme.

As for pointing fingers... there's plenty of blame to go around. 10 years of mostly bad drafts and bad free agent signings. This doesn't all fall on one person.

On the upside, we've got some young players with bright futures, imo. Been a while since we've been able to say that.

Tombstone RJ
10-10-2011, 04:10 PM
Did you just compare a draft where Shanahan had just two late picks inside the first two rounds and a bunch of late rounders with the orgy of 1st/2nd round picks McD screwed up?

Wow. This is how dumb your post is:

Shanahan had 10 picks, half of them in the 5th or later.

McD had 5 picks in the first two rounds alone in the 2009 draft three of which aren't even on the team just two years on.

I understand what you are saying but that draft still stunk all to hell. I remember why the Broncos drafted Terry Pierce it was because the heart and soul of the defense--Al Wilson--wanted a new contract and Shanny was trying to prove a point.

Rolandftw
10-10-2011, 04:11 PM
How in the hell?

Alphonso has ALWAYS been horrible. He's FIFTH on the CB depth chart for Detroit--who frankly, is just a TAD deeper than Denver is at CB--and been ACTIVE for only one game this season (due to an injury to a non-starter lol).

Alphonso has nothing and is nothing and will never be anything.

And never had the potential to be anything.

He'd be a good player in nickel and dime sets. Has great instincts, which is one of the reasons he had as many picks in college and detroit that one year.

He is not, nor ever was a starting corner. You don't trade a first round pick for a nickel/dime defensive back. Just like you don't draft a RB at #12 in the draft who isn't a between the tackles back.

And you don't trade a chunk of your draft to move up for someone that is a likely three year project either...

Agamemnon
10-10-2011, 04:25 PM
And you don't trade a chunk of your draft to move up for someone that is a likely three year project either...

What QB isn't a three year project? This stuff never ceases to amuse me...

Rolandftw
10-10-2011, 04:33 PM
He was widely seen as a player not ready to contribute right away. I don't think there was even a hint of him being drafted in the first round (other then some people that thought Jax was so desperate for a QB that they would take him with their early first round pick).

If Hoodie Jr. was that enamored with Tebow that he didn't think he would escape the first round, he should have just took him with the first of their late 1st round picks. Could have still had a deep draft and got the guy he wanted. We didn't need TWO offensive players in the first round, that were both high risk/high reward.

Popps
10-10-2011, 04:38 PM
I understand what you are saying but that draft still stunk all to hell. I remember why the Broncos drafted Terry Pierce it was because the heart and soul of the defense--Al Wilson--wanted a new contract and Shanny was trying to prove a point.

Peirce was out of the league in like two years, wasn't he?

Foster, well... I don't need to say anything there, I assume.

But, you can fast-forward to the 2004 draft to see that the "jewel" of that draft was DJ Williams. The next best keeper? Tatum Bell. At least those players saw the field.

Between 2003-2004, we had 20 draft picks. DJ Williams and Tatum Bell is what we got out of it. The other 18? Scrap heap.

From the 2009/2010 drafts... the top two, and then the top five players respectively are still on the roster in starting or important roles. That's not mentioning ST's guys and back-ups.

So, again... the 9/10 drafts weren't stellar. But, we've done much worse.

Tombstone RJ
10-10-2011, 05:56 PM
Peirce was out of the league in like two years, wasn't he?

Foster, well... I don't need to say anything there, I assume.

But, you can fast-forward to the 2004 draft to see that the "jewel" of that draft was DJ Williams. The next best keeper? Tatum Bell. At least those players saw the field.

Between 2003-2004, we had 20 draft picks. DJ Williams and Tatum Bell is what we got out of it. The other 18? Scrap heap.

From the 2009/2010 drafts... the top two, and then the top five players respectively are still on the roster in starting or important roles. That's not mentioning ST's guys and back-ups.

So, again... the 9/10 drafts weren't stellar. But, we've done much worse.

that doesn't make me feel better. The EFX regime has to do better. Much, much better.

Popps
10-10-2011, 06:26 PM
that doesn't make me feel better. The EFX regime has to do better. Much, much better.

Oh, no question. The point was simply... for all the whining about those couple of drafts, we'll come out of it with 6-9 starters and worthy contributors. We've done much worse than that in consecutive drafts.

To your point, I agree... and I think EFX are off to a nice start in that regard.