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View Full Version : Tim Tebow to Peter King phone call


Dagmar
10-09-2011, 05:19 PM
King - "Have you done enough to win the starting job?"

Tebow - "thank God I don't have to make that call, I just went out and tried to play with a lot of heart."

King believes Fox will start Tebow @ Miami.

Hamrob
10-09-2011, 05:29 PM
Thank God.......in deed!

Play Tebow. It won't be all pretty...but, at least we will get to see if he can be our QB of the future. Not, to mention he is fun to watch!

Archedamian
10-09-2011, 05:29 PM
I'll take heart any day. I want someone with a passion to win and I don't mind if they wear that passion on their sleeve.

SoCalBronco
10-09-2011, 05:29 PM
GB2

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-09-2011, 05:30 PM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

DrFate
10-09-2011, 05:31 PM
It won't be all pretty

Given the reps with the #1s, I think Tebow could be alright, numbers wise. I doubt he's ever a 70% completion buy, but I think upper 50's is quite reasonable. And the ability to make big plays makes up most of the difference.

Bronx33
10-09-2011, 05:34 PM
Fox has zero reasons to start orton i mean unless hes dumb.

SoCalBronco
10-09-2011, 05:36 PM
Fox has zero reasons to start orton i mean unless hes dumb.

Fox lacks the political capital to start Orton. It's over. It's not even in his hands. The staff and FO have been broken. Tebow is starting, its not their call. He proved it and the fans demand it.

ant1999e
10-09-2011, 05:36 PM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

ROFL!He was pretty good.

Taco John
10-09-2011, 05:37 PM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

'ppreciate that.

SoCalBronco
10-09-2011, 05:38 PM
lmao

KO5K
10-09-2011, 05:38 PM
Anyone got any other post game quotes?

crush17
10-09-2011, 05:38 PM
I am excited for the rest of the season now. It will at least be nice to see some effing FIRE in this team.

They looked lifeless through 3 quarters today. Like zombies, especially the O.

GreatBronco16
10-09-2011, 05:39 PM
Given the reps with the #1s, I think Tebow could be alright, numbers wise. I doubt he's ever a 70% completion buy, but I think upper 50's is quite reasonable. And the ability to make big plays makes up most of the difference.

Who was the last QB in Denver to be a 70% completion guy? Lets not go overboard here with that stat. Hell even the great Elway wasn't a 60% completion kind of guy.

snowspot66
10-09-2011, 05:39 PM
]Fox lacks the political capital to start Orton.[/B] It's over. It's not even in his hands. The staff and FO have been broken. Tebow is starting, its not their call. He proved it and the fans demand it.

I think that was the only reason he didn't start Tebow to begin with. He didn't have enough of it to tell the veterans they wanted to go with a young guy who didn't get that crucial off season work and it showed.

KO5K
10-09-2011, 05:39 PM
PostBroncos (http://twitter.com/#%21/PostBroncos) Lindsay Jones

Fox on QB situation after bye week: "It will all be up for discussion." <s class="hash">#</s>broncos (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23broncos) <s class="hash">#</s>tebow (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23tebow) <s class="hash">#</s>orton (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23orton) <s class="hash">#</s>quinn (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23quinn)? <s class="hash">#</s>weber (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23weber)?


FML.

crush17
10-09-2011, 05:40 PM
That throw to, and catch by Lloyd was one of the best plays of the season by far.

maven
10-09-2011, 05:40 PM
PostBroncos (http://twitter.com/#%21/PostBroncos) Lindsay Jones

Fox on QB situation after bye week: "It will all be up for discussion." <s class="hash">#</s>broncos (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23broncos) <s class="hash">#</s>tebow (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23tebow) <s class="hash">#</s>orton (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23orton) <s class="hash">#</s>quinn (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23quinn)? <s class="hash">#</s>weber (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23weber)?


FML.

If Fox plays his cards right, he starts Tebow in Miami. He doesn't have to announce it yet.

snowspot66
10-09-2011, 05:41 PM
Who was the last QB in Denver to be a 70% completion guy? Lets not go overboard here with that stat. Hell even the great Elway wasn't a 60% completion kind of guy.

Looked this up and you're right. Granted it was before the rules started to heavily favor the offense but he didn't hit 60% even in our Super Bowl years.

bronco militia
10-09-2011, 05:42 PM
'ppreciate that.

LOL

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5201842402_db12a8e467_b.jpg

KO5K
10-09-2011, 05:46 PM
1 minute ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton feels he's still starting QB until Fox says otherwise (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) was asked whether he feels he is still the starter over Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/1114680/tim-tebow). "That's how I approach it until (coach John Fox) tells me differently," he said. Orton added that his 6 of 13, 34-yard first half was largely on him. "I had the interception and just didn't have a whole lot of looks, to be honest with you." Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)

KO5K
10-09-2011, 05:46 PM
7 minutes ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711991) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton says he'll 'live with it' if Tebow becomes starting QB (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711991)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) said that if Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/1114680/tim-tebow) is the starter moving forward, "I live with it." But, Orton added, he has been given no indication of his status moving foward by coach John Fox. "I'm sure at some time we'll talk." Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)

KO5K
10-09-2011, 05:47 PM
8 minutes ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711989) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton surprised he got the hook at halftime (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711989)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) expressed "a little bit" of surprise that he was replaced at halftime by coach John Fox. "But we didn't do much, and he came in and said he was giong to make a change. He's the head coach." Fox wouldn't make an announcement on his starter moving forward until the staff does a full evaluation. Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)

Dr. Broncenstein
10-09-2011, 05:47 PM
1 minute ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton feels he's still starting QB until Fox says otherwise (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) was asked whether he feels he is still the starter over Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/1114680/tim-tebow). "That's how I approach it until (coach John Fox) tells me differently," he said. Orton added that his 6 of 13, 34-yard first half was largely on him. "I had the interception and just didn't have a whole lot of looks, to be honest with you." Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)

Hahahahahaha

Agamemnon
10-09-2011, 05:48 PM
I was surprised as well. I figured Fox was to stupid to make the change honestly...

DrFate
10-09-2011, 05:49 PM
Who was the last QB in Denver to be a 70% completion guy? Lets not go overboard here with that stat. Hell even the great Elway wasn't a 60% completion kind of guy.

That was my point. Some want to criticize Tebow's style because he doesn't have a real high completion percentage. I think he'll bounce a pass here and there, maybe forever. But his yards/attempt will dwarf those of Orton, and he can keep plays alive with his feet (to say nothing of simply getting yards via his legs)

Dr. Broncenstein
10-09-2011, 05:49 PM
Dear Kyle,

That writing on the wall becomes more legible when you back away fom the wall about fifty feet. It says pack your shiat.

Your pal,

Doc B

Bronx33
10-09-2011, 05:51 PM
1 minute ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton feels he's still starting QB until Fox says otherwise (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) was asked whether he feels he is still the starter over Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/1114680/tim-tebow). "That's how I approach it until (coach John Fox) tells me differently," he said. Orton added that his 6 of 13, 34-yard first half was largely on him. "I had the interception and just didn't have a whole lot of looks, to be honest with you." Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)


and just didn't have a whole lot of looks

What exactly does kyle think are looks? the dumb look? the moron look? the clueless look?

OABB
10-09-2011, 05:51 PM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

Um...he played better in the preseason by all measurable stats and was more accurate as well.

I thought Tebow looked terrible today compared to preseason.

Agamemnon
10-09-2011, 05:52 PM
Fox lacks the political capital to start Orton. It's over. It's not even in his hands. The staff and FO have been broken. Tebow is starting, its not their call. He proved it and the fans demand it.

I tend to agree. I mean he could choose to start Orton, but the repercussions are probably more than he or Elway are willing to face.

epicSocialism4tw
10-09-2011, 05:52 PM
Um...he played better in the preseason by all measurable stats and was more accurate as well.

I thought Tebow looked terrible today compared to preseason.

Tebow looked just fine in the preseason.

The only difference between here and preseason is that these games matter and Tebow's heart and inner will come through.

DrFate
10-09-2011, 05:53 PM
What exactly does kyle think are looks? the dumb look? the moron look? the clueless look?

One of the reasons why this guy is so reviled (other than poor on-field play or lack of winning) is his attitude. He seems to HONESTLY THINK he's a good NFL quarterback. He has an ego that is about 10x what his play indicates...

SoCalBronco
10-09-2011, 05:53 PM
Dear Kyle,

That writing on the wall becomes more legible when you back away fom the wall about fifty feet. It says pack your shiat.

Your pal,

Doc B

ROFL!

Agamemnon
10-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Um...he played better in the preseason by all measurable stats and was more accurate as well.

I thought Tebow looked terrible today compared to preseason.

Yep. He looked completely out of sorts early on. Once he settled down it got a lot better. That final drive you could see the San Diego coaches starting to sweat because he was starting to tear it up. The Tebow of the first two possessions was brutal. The Tebow after that was pretty good.

myMind
10-09-2011, 06:13 PM
PostBroncos (http://twitter.com/#%21/PostBroncos) Lindsay Jones

Fox on QB situation after bye week: "It will all be up for discussion." <s class="hash">#</s>broncos (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23broncos) <s class="hash">#</s>tebow (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23tebow) <s class="hash">#</s>orton (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23orton) <s class="hash">#</s>quinn (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23quinn)? <s class="hash">#</s>weber (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23weber)?


FML.

I wouldnt be worried. No competent coach would show their hand to the dolphins two weeks out.

Agamemnon
10-09-2011, 06:14 PM
I wouldnt be worried. No competent coach would show their hand to the dolphins two weeks out.

And neither would Fox. ;)

OABB
10-09-2011, 06:37 PM
Tebow looked just fine in the preseason.

The only difference between here and preseason is that these games matter and Tebow's heart and inner will come through.

just curios how teko could say that. It's almost like he doesn't understand basic football, or what a good QB looks like.

lolz!

MacGruder
10-09-2011, 06:40 PM
Yep. He looked completely out of sorts early on. Once he settled down it got a lot better. That final drive you could see the San Diego coaches starting to sweat because he was starting to tear it up. The Tebow of the first two possessions was brutal. The Tebow after that was pretty good.

We need to keep in mind the coaches were probably playing ultra conservative because they realized they were throwing him into a bad situation as well. Like last season in the Raiders game.

BroncoLover
10-09-2011, 06:46 PM
On the way back, broncos are planning to leave orton in miami and get the trade package in a secret cover, which they will not open till next years draft

OrangeCrush2724
10-09-2011, 07:15 PM
There are going to be a lot of Tebow fans in Miami for the game. The marketing for the Dolphins had marked that game as "Gator Day" and were going to acknowledge the Gator championships during the half time. So a lot of Gator fans are going to be present at the game.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-09-2011, 07:17 PM
just curios how teko could say that. It's almost like he doesn't understand basic football, or what a good QB looks like.

lolz!

Well you've proven over and over that you don't know WTF you're talking abor. No surprise here.
When tebow got comfortable, he looked quite good.
Not enough to root for the team huh? What a shock.

OABB
10-09-2011, 07:22 PM
Well you've proven over and over that you don't know WTF you're talking abor. No surprise here.
When tebow got comfortable, he looked quite good.
Not enough to root for the team huh? What a shock.

what are you talking abor? tebow looked better in the preseason to anyone with eyeballs and you are contradicting that. being wrong about a guy is fine. we all have been and will be here....but saying something wrong after the fact is stupid. this isnt a prediction...you have the benefit of history and you are wrong.


lolz.

TheDave
10-09-2011, 07:23 PM
Fox lacks the political capital to start Orton. It's over. It's not even in his hands. The staff and FO have been broken. Tebow is starting, its not their call. He proved it and the fans demand it.

^ the second tebow walked on the field Ortons career in Denver ended.

lonestar
10-09-2011, 07:28 PM
With Tebow on the field the 11 guys on D have to remain honest until the whistle blows.

Not so with Orton..

But that said I think Orton starts the next game UNLESS he goes to EFX and tells them he is tired of the BS trade me..

DEN fans suck and he wants to move on..

FOx as much as said so in his comment after tha game he wants to see the tape, and flim and talk to his staff..

At least that is how i see it..

those are things THAT we layman do not have access to he does and he started Delhomme for along time after he should have made the changes..

Orton starts much to our dismay, but he will not have a very long leash..

Dr. Broncenstein
10-09-2011, 07:32 PM
Well you've proven over and over that you don't know WTF you're talking abor. No surprise here.
When tebow got comfortable, he looked quite good.
Not enough to root for the team huh? What a shock.

You're gonna need a new handle eventually. I suggest "TheAgnosticTimTebow."

brncs_fan
10-09-2011, 07:36 PM
You're gonna need a new handle eventually. I suggest "TheAgnosticTimTebow."

"thehealthyBeyBey"

Drek
10-09-2011, 07:41 PM
Given the reps with the #1s, I think Tebow could be alright, numbers wise. I doubt he's ever a 70% completion buy, but I think upper 50's is quite reasonable. And the ability to make big plays makes up most of the difference.

You know Tebow had a 66.4 completion percentage in college. He had multiple games over 70% against very good SEC competition and even several games over 80% including one against Florida State.

Tebow's throwing motion looks ****ty for a lot of reasons but Tebow showed that when he settles down and finds a zone he can throw some impressively accurate passes.

He lacks consistency and precision, but he shows all the tools needed to develop those with time. If we put Tebow in a system akin to what the Panthers have done with Newton (lot of 12 personnel letting him use the TEs as blockers or receivers, keeping the D off balance) he could find a rhythm and have big games very quickly.

Its all about how we design the offense and how quickly he grows within it. We saw today that what he needs more than anything is just time on the field.

schaaf
10-09-2011, 07:42 PM
GB2

Hey SoCal, you probably paid attention a little more then i did... Does it look like DJ has lost a little weight??

Broncoman13
10-09-2011, 07:43 PM
1 minute ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton feels he's still starting QB until Fox says otherwise (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) was asked whether he feels he is still the starter over Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/1114680/tim-tebow). "That's how I approach it until (coach John Fox) tells me differently," he said. Orton added that his 6 of 13, 34-yard first half was largely on him. "I had the interception and just didn't have a whole lot of looks, to be honest with you." Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)

You don't have a whole lot of looks when you can't convert a 3rd down or even get a surprise first down any other way.

peacepipe
10-09-2011, 07:45 PM
I wouldnt be worried. No competent coach would show their hand to the dolphins two weeks out.

well considering we're playing the Dolphins,a team that made the wildcat offense popular for awhile,it wouldn't take much for them to develop a defense for tebow. I'm also pretty sure they're be game planning for tebow wether it's anounced now or at game time.

maher_tyler
10-09-2011, 07:46 PM
With Tebow on the field the 11 guys on D have to remain honest until the whistle blows.

Not so with Orton..

But that said I think Orton starts the next game UNLESS he goes to EFX and tells them he is tired of the BS trade me..

DEN fans suck and he wants to move on..

FOx as much as said so in his comment after tha game he wants to see the tape, and flim and talk to his staff..

At least that is how i see it..

those are things THAT we layman do not have access to he does and he started Delhomme for along time after he should have made the changes..

Orton starts much to our dismay, but he will not have a very long leash..

I hope you're wrong, i'll be so pissed if i see Orton take another snap for this team!

SoCalBronco
10-09-2011, 07:47 PM
Hey SoCal, you probably paid attention a little more then i did... Does it look like DJ has lost a little weight??

Haven't noticed a loss of weight, no.

Broncobiv
10-09-2011, 07:52 PM
There are going to be a lot of Tebow fans in Miami for the game. The marketing for the Dolphins had marked that game as "Gator Day" and were going to acknowledge the Gator championships during the half time. So a lot of Gator fans are going to be present at the game.
Kind of makes you wonder what the Dolphins players, sitting there at potentially 0-5 (next week away at a pissed off Jets team on MNF), feel about their organization doing all they can to make it a home game for the Broncos?

spdirty
10-09-2011, 07:53 PM
This is all a bunch of bull****. I thought Brady Quinn was the number 2 and would replace Orton in case of injury/benching. We would've won had Brady Quinn been playing.

go_broncos
10-09-2011, 07:55 PM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

ROFL!

Broncobiv
10-09-2011, 08:03 PM
This is all a bunch of bull****. I thought Brady Quinn was the number 2 and would replace Orton in case of injury/benching. We would've won had Brady Quinn been playing.

:stirstir: LOL

MplsBronco
10-09-2011, 08:29 PM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

Who gives a shiat?

Tombstone RJ
10-09-2011, 08:32 PM
This is all a bunch of bull****. I thought Brady Quinn was the number 2 and would replace Orton in case of injury/benching. We would've won had Brady Quinn been playing.

Hilarious!

OABB
10-09-2011, 08:33 PM
yeah... wasnt tebow our third string? could swear I heard that here...

anyone remember what genius that was?

MplsBronco
10-09-2011, 08:35 PM
yeah... wasnt tebow our third string? could swear I heard that here...

anyone remember what genius that was?

TheDave for one. Where is that clown?

TheDave
10-09-2011, 08:37 PM
TheDave for one. Where is that clown?

Yeah, I'm the only one who said that

MplsBronco
10-09-2011, 08:40 PM
Yeah, I'm the only one who said that

But you stated it as if it was fact. Amongst alot of other crap. All most of want is to see what Tebow has on the field. We saw more of what we saw at the end of last year. Hopefully you had your eyes open today.

TheDave
10-09-2011, 08:46 PM
But you stated it as if it was fact. Amongst alot of other crap. All most of want is to see what Tebow has on the field. We saw more of what we saw at the end of last year. Hopefully you had your eyes open today.

and you think that the wave of fan support has nothing to do with this decision? Come on lets not play dumb here. This kid is getting a chance because Orton crapped the bed AND the fans are screaming for him.

Saying he earned the 3rd spot at the end of camp was not nearly as crazy as you want to make it out to be.

As for the game- it was fun and exciting and a loss... Sorry if I am not showing enough joy for the situation.

OABB
10-09-2011, 08:50 PM
TheDave for one. Where is that clown?

thedave? should have known. idiots everywhere.

Tombstone RJ
10-09-2011, 09:00 PM
and you think that the wave of fan support has nothing to do with this decision? Come on lets not play dumb here. This kid is getting a chance because Orton crapped the bed AND the fans are screaming for him.

Saying he earned the 3rd spot at the end of camp was not nearly as crazy as you want to make it out to be.

As for the game- it was fun and exciting and a loss... Sorry if I am not showing enough joy for the situation.

well actually Dave, Tebow is the only QB on the roster with a long term contract. That's why Fox is putting him in over Quinn. Perhaps Quinn does practice better than Tebow, but Quinn has no future with the Broncos. He's a 5 year vet on the last year of his rookie contract. He may resign with the Broncos but I doubt it.

Tebow just got a $6m bonus and is in the 2nd year of his rookie contract. Now are you starting to understand?

TheDave
10-09-2011, 09:02 PM
well actually Dave, Tebow is the only QB on the roster with a long term contract. That's why Fox is putting him in over Quinn. Perhaps Quinn does practice better than Tebow, but Quinn has no future with the Broncos. He's a 5 year vet on the last year of his rookie contract. He may resign with the Broncos but I doubt it.

Tebow just got a $6m bonus and is in the 2nd year of his rookie contract. Now are you starting to understand?

Understand what?

OABB
10-09-2011, 09:03 PM
Understand what?

the worm is getting deeper.

lonestar
10-09-2011, 09:04 PM
With Tebow on the field the 11 guys on D have to remain honest until the whistle blows.

Not so with Orton..

But that said I think Orton starts the next game UNLESS he goes to EFX and tells them he is tired of the BS trade me..

DEN fans suck and he wants to move on..

FOx as much as said so in his comment after tha game he wants to see the tape, and flim and talk to his staff..

At least that is how i see it..

those are things THAT we layman do not have access to he does and he started Delhomme for along time after he should have made the changes..

Orton starts much to our dismay, but he will not have a very long leash..


Now I might come of of this after hearing that tebow was told by Mc Coy he was going in after half time as they went into the tunnel.. going into the locker room..

Just maybe John F got some balls after all.

epicSocialism4tw
10-09-2011, 09:10 PM
With Tebow on the field the 11 guys on D have to remain honest until the whistle blows.

Not so with Orton..

But that said I think Orton starts the next game UNLESS he goes to EFX and tells them he is tired of the BS trade me..

DEN fans suck and he wants to move on..

FOx as much as said so in his comment after tha game he wants to see the tape, and flim and talk to his staff..

At least that is how i see it..

those are things THAT we layman do not have access to he does and he started Delhomme for along time after he should have made the changes..

Orton starts much to our dismay, but he will not have a very long leash..

Fox was just being ambiguous and a little diplomatic.

The change has been made at QB. Tebow is the man in Denver.

And if he plays like this every week, he'll be the starter in Denver for a long time.

This guy just comes through. Its infectious.

You could tell that the team was ready to make the change too. The defense unleashed itself after Tebow came in because as someone else pointed out, there was a reason to get the ball back again.

Tebow's the man in Denver.

Rolandftw
10-09-2011, 10:23 PM
Fox lacks the political capital to start Orton. It's over. It's not even in his hands. The staff and FO have been broken. Tebow is starting, its not their call. He proved it and the fans demand it.

Of all the reasons Tebow gets the start, I imagine the fans don't crack the top 10.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-10-2011, 06:54 AM
"thehealthyBeyBey"

That might be the winner.

jhns
10-10-2011, 06:58 AM
and you think that the wave of fan support has nothing to do with this decision? Come on lets not play dumb here. This kid is getting a chance because Orton crapped the bed AND the fans are screaming for him.

Saying he earned the 3rd spot at the end of camp was not nearly as crazy as you want to make it out to be.

As for the game- it was fun and exciting and a loss... Sorry if I am not showing enough joy for the situation.

Says the guy that didn't watch preseason. You haters just got your crap smearwd all over your faces. Tebow produces.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-10-2011, 06:58 AM
Says the guy that didn't watch preseason. You haters just got your crap smearwd all over your faces. Tebow produces.

Awww, you win the internets!

DrFate
10-10-2011, 07:00 AM
Saying he earned the 3rd spot at the end of camp was not nearly as crazy as you want to make it out to be.


Pretty crazy if you watched any of the preseason... Especially the final game...

jhns
10-10-2011, 07:06 AM
Awww, you win the internets!

That is obvious.

Sorry that you are wrong about everything. Not everyone can be born with a brain.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 07:12 AM
1 minute ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton feels he's still starting QB until Fox says otherwise (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) was asked whether he feels he is still the starter over Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/1114680/tim-tebow). "That's how I approach it until (coach John Fox) tells me differently," he said. Orton added that his 6 of 13, 34-yard first half was largely on him. "I had the interception and just didn't have a whole lot of looks, to be honest with you." Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)

Oh jfc

ScottXray
10-10-2011, 07:57 AM
Dear Kyle,

That writing on the wall becomes more legible when you back away fom the wall about fifty feet. It says pack your shiat.

Your pal,

Doc B

LOLHilarious!

Get that eye chart out Doc....We all know orton can't read..( except in practice 7 on 7s)

strafen
10-10-2011, 08:04 AM
'ppreciate that.

LMAO!!! ROFL! Ha!

Quoydogs
10-10-2011, 08:09 AM
Fox lacks the political capital to start Orton. It's over. It's not even in his hands. The staff and FO have been broken. Tebow is starting, its not their call. He proved it and the fans demand it.

If you watch foxes presser he was excited in what he saw in Tebow. You could see it in his face.

zdoor
10-10-2011, 08:37 AM
^ the second tebow walked on the field Ortons career in Denver ended.

Yup

ColoradoDarin
10-10-2011, 09:12 AM
Man the Broncos website sucks. Rule #1 for internet video - NO AUTOPLAY.

pricejj
10-10-2011, 09:53 AM
You know Tebow had a 66.4 completion percentage in college. He had multiple games over 70% against very good SEC competition and even several games over 80% including one against Florida State.

Tebow's throwing motion looks ****ty for a lot of reasons but Tebow showed that when he settles down and finds a zone he can throw some impressively accurate passes.

He lacks consistency and precision, but he shows all the tools needed to develop those with time. If we put Tebow in a system akin to what the Panthers have done with Newton (lot of 12 personnel letting him use the TEs as blockers or receivers, keeping the D off balance) he could find a rhythm and have big games very quickly.

Its all about how we design the offense and how quickly he grows within it. We saw today that what he needs more than anything is just time on the field.

...agreed.

Tebow is easily capable of >60% completion percentage...he won't settle for less.

McCoy needs to separate the Broncos offense from the McDaniels offense (which has Sam Bradford throwing a 49% comp. rate, and the Rams at 0-4). Last year, McCoy tried to "dumb down" a crap offense for Tebow...which is not the right thing to do.

-5 yard bubble screens
1st down runs up the middle for no gain
3rd and long every series
5 yard passes on 3rd and 19
...to name a few.

Am not worried, now that Tebow is playing, he won't settle for the loser/McDaniels offensive mentality that only produces turnovers and punts.

DrFate
10-10-2011, 09:57 AM
...McCoy needs to separate the Broncos offense from the McDaniels offense (which has Sam Bradford throwing a 49% comp. rate, and the Rams at 0-4).

And the most lopsided run/pass ratio in the league as well

lonestar
10-10-2011, 09:57 AM
You know Tebow had a 66.4 completion percentage in college. He had multiple games over 70% against very good SEC competition and even several games over 80% including one against Florida State.

Tebow's throwing motion looks ****ty for a lot of reasons but Tebow showed that when he settles down and finds a zone he can throw some impressively accurate passes.

He lacks consistency and precision, but he shows all the tools needed to develop those with time. If we put Tebow in a system akin to what the Panthers have done with Newton (lot of 12 personnel letting him use the TEs as blockers or receivers, keeping the D off balance) he could find a rhythm and have big games very quickly.

Its all about how we design the offense and how quickly he grows within it. We saw today that what he needs more than anything is just time on the field.



YES but his cmpleteion rate was also based on loads of screens and dump off passes..

With almost NO reading of complex defenses and very few 2-4 progression situations. All easy and fast..

Now that said I really like what he brings to the offense keeping ALL 11 defenders engaged fro teh entire game.. that makes for sloppy tired play later in drives and games Especially at MILE HIGH.. WE/HE should own the home field as long as they are not required to score 35 points a game to keep up with the opponents..


your probably correct if put into an O that uses his skill sets he should become better and better each year growing into a Bona Fide Pro QB much like John E did.

I see alot of the same things in Tebow that John Brought into teh league although his skill set at trhrowing the ball was much better..

But the improvision he showed yesterday looked alot like #7 was back..

lonestar
10-10-2011, 10:10 AM
Fox was just being ambiguous and a little diplomatic.

The change has been made at QB. Tebow is the man in Denver.

And if he plays like this every week, he'll be the starter in Denver for a long time.

This guy just comes through. Its infectious.

You could tell that the team was ready to make the change too. The defense unleashed itself after Tebow came in because as someone else pointed out, there was a reason to get the ball back again.

Tebow's the man in Denver.

Well maybe your correct but I still think he is old school enough to keep trying to keep the VET in the game, knowing if the running game is there he will improve..

Now that said if he does that at home the staduim will go nuts, He can easily start Orton on the road and insert tebow IF Orton does not come along and frankly IN MIA he has a HUGE incentive to show them they made a huge mistake..



Then He just may give up and roll over knowing h=that his chances of getting another contract in DEN a growing slimmer by the day..

How about he has a career game against MIA and then they make teh trade after the game.. WIN WIN for everyone involved.. that way he can just stay in MIA, send for his wife and baby..

I can live with that..

lonestar
10-10-2011, 10:12 AM
That is obvious.

Sorry that you are wrong about everything. Not everyone can be born with a brain.


Based on most of your posts I've seen, what happened with you?

TheDave
10-10-2011, 10:15 AM
Why do the nuts always have to tell us what he did in college... I suppose if we started to play our games on Saturday, cut everyone over the age of 24, offered "contracts" to a bunch of real fast 18 year olds to replace those old guys, and every couple of weeks we get to play Sister Carmen's home for derilicts... just to pad our stats.

Unfortunately these games are played on Sundays against grown men who are offered millions to do their job, and they only get 1 bye week... It is what it is. Maybe we could focus our argument towards what he does on Sunday and not what he did 3 years ago in that other league.

He is fun to watch and I'll admit, you never know what is going to happen next. But the facts are he went 4/10 continued to show accuracy issues and will need to improve if he is to keep his job.

strafen
10-10-2011, 10:15 AM
Well maybe your correct but I still think he is old school enough to keep trying to keep the VET in the game, knowing if the running game is there he will improve..

Now that said if he does that at home the staduim will go nuts, He can easily start Orton on the road and insert tebow IF Orton does not come along and frankly IN MIA he has a HUGE incentive to show them they made a huge mistake..

Then He just may give up and roll over knowing h=that his chances of getting another contract in DEN a growing slimmer by the day..

How about he has a career game against MIA and then they make teh trade after the game.. WIN WIN for everyone involved.. that way he can just stay in MIA, send for his wife and baby..

I can live with that..The NFL is a business. You win, you're in, you lose, you're out.
This is not fantasy football, man.
What you've described above is too laughable...

Bronco Yoda
10-10-2011, 10:31 AM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

It's time to change your name to "TheElusiveTimTebowner".

DrFate
10-10-2011, 10:33 AM
But the facts are he went 4/10

I would think that reps with the first team would see this number improve

Dedhed
10-10-2011, 10:35 AM
I wouldnt be worried. No competent coach would show their hand to the dolphins two weeks out.

I disagree completely. The Dolphins are going to prepare as if Tebow is the starter anuway. They don't have to make any special preparations if Fox is dumb enough to start Orton.

They're going to Florida where Tebow has more fans than the Dolphins, and on a day where they're honoring the Gators for their National Championship. Announce Tebow as the starter ASAP, and that place will turn into a Broncos home game.

With two weeks' notice, Tebow fans down there will gobble up every free ticket that a hopeless fan base is willing to put on StubHub. Announce it today, and we've addded a home game to our schedule.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-10-2011, 10:39 AM
Why do the nuts always have to tell us what he did in college... I suppose if we started to play our games on Saturday, cut everyone over the age of 24, offered "contracts" to a bunch of real fast 18 year olds to replace those old guys, and every couple of weeks we get to play Sister Carmen's home for derilicts... just to pad our stats.

Unfortunately these games are played on Sundays against grown men who are offered millions to do their job, and they only get 1 bye week... It is what it is. Maybe we could focus our argument towards what he does on Sunday and not what he did 3 years ago in that other league.

He is fun to watch and I'll admit, you never know what is going to happen next. But the facts are he went 4/10 continued to show accuracy issues and will need to improve if he is to keep his job.

He may have been 4/10 with accuracy issues, but he was infinitely better than what the best chance to win was producing.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 10:40 AM
I would think that reps with the first team would see this number improve

Maybe, unfortunately accuracy seems to be one of those god given gifts. Sure you can work on mechanics and try to improve, and hopefully he will.

It's just MO either you have accuracy or you do not.

The one saving grace with this kid is his body type. If he can stay healthy and use his legs to buy time, hopefully he can open up some of those windows and the accuracy issues will be diminished.

Dedhed
10-10-2011, 10:42 AM
Liked what I saw today. He has improved from the pre season for sure.

Give it a rest. Tebow was far better in the pre-season. Just eat your crow and get on with your Username switch. Don't keep up the absurd charade of trying to justify what was, very clearly, a terrible decision to ever start Orton.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 10:42 AM
He may have been 4/10 with accuracy issues, but he was infinitely better than what the best chance to win was producing.


I know Doc, Orton crapped the bed and now the next guy is up. Can we now talk about what Tebow actually did on the field and quit excussing everything with a story about Orton and/or Florida?

broncocalijohn
10-10-2011, 10:43 AM
If Fox plays his cards right, he starts Tebow in Miami. He doesn't have to announce it yet.

If you want to make money, buy some tickets for the Miami game and then put them up for sale in Talahassee when it is announced. They will travel Alligator Alley to see their Messiah.

jhns
10-10-2011, 10:44 AM
I know Doc, Orton crapped the bed and now the next guy is up. Can we now talk about what Tebow actually did on the field and quit excussing everything with a story about Orton and/or Florida?

No. You haters wont let us.

Que
10-10-2011, 10:46 AM
Who was the last QB in Denver to be a 70% completion guy? Lets not go overboard here with that stat. Hell even the great Elway wasn't a 60% completion kind of guy.

I totally agree. In the pre-shanny as HC portion of Elway's career, he was not a high completion % QB. His QBR was never in the lofty end of the league. But, he always managed to will his team to victory. He was raw talent.

Just look at the stats, he never averaged above 60% for the season until 1993. His QBR was 70ish most seasons. But the dude knew how to lead and how to win.

http://www.nfl.com/player/johnelway/2500547/profile

Que
10-10-2011, 10:54 AM
1 minute ago (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995) - by Lee Rasizer - Orton feels he's still starting QB until Fox says otherwise (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/15711995)
QB Kyle Orton (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/418071/kyle-orton) was asked whether he feels he is still the starter over Tim Tebow (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/player/1114680/tim-tebow). "That's how I approach it until (coach John Fox) tells me differently," he said. Orton added that his 6 of 13, 34-yard first half was largely on him. "I had the interception and just didn't have a whole lot of looks, to be honest with you." Broncos RapidReports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/DEN)

Speaking of looks, anyone have a clip of the look on Orton's face right before his last possession of the first half? Gannon was freaking out about it and he was right. It was the look that a rabbit has when he realizes he's walked into a wolf den.

fontaine
10-10-2011, 10:54 AM
He is fun to watch and I'll admit, you never know what is going to happen next. But the facts are he went 4/10 continued to show accuracy issues and will need to improve if he is to keep his job.

Yes, he played like a 2nd year QB who's got a long ways to go and didn't get enough 1st team reps in training camp or weekly practice/prep.

That being said he did a lot right, like not turn over the football, keep drives alive with his feet and was the best red zone threat we've had for a long long time.

I can't remember the last time our offense lined and up and the whole defense had to readjust their front 7 lineup to stack the line of scrimmage because they were completely sold out to stop just ONE player in our offense.

Yes Tebow needs to improve in a lot of areas in the next two/three years but every single QB from John Elway to Andy Dalton had to go through the same learning process.

I'm willing to give him a chance and see what he can do in the next two/three years.

I know his team mates are already on board and so am I.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-10-2011, 10:56 AM
I know Doc, Orton crapped the bed and now the next guy is up. Can we now talk about what Tebow actually did on the field and quit excussing everything with a story about Orton and/or Florida?

Tebow led the offense to points. 14 of them to the best of my recollection. That's like a 466% improvement. Plus, no turnovers.

enjolras
10-10-2011, 11:02 AM
You know it's interesting. Detroit is basically running an unmodified college spread offense. Why can't we do the same thing?

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:09 AM
Tebow led the offense to points. 14 of them to the best of my recollection. That's like a 466% improvement. Plus, no turnovers.

and we lost... which is like a 0% improvement.

Lets see what he does with 2 full weeks, hopefully it will improve but so far through 3.5 he is a sub 50%.

I do not think you can win in the nfl missing WR that frequently.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:10 AM
You know it's interesting. Detroit is basically running an unmodified college spread offense. Why can't we do the same thing?

Are they really?

Stafford didn't run a spread in college... did he?

jhns
10-10-2011, 11:10 AM
and we lost... which is like a 0% improvement.

Lets see what he does with 2 full weeks, hopefully it will improve but so far through 3.5 he is a sub 50%.

I do not think you can win in the nfl missing WR that frequently.

Wow...

ColoradoDarin
10-10-2011, 11:11 AM
If you want to make money, buy some tickets for the Miami game and then put them up for sale in Talahassee when it is announced. They will travel Alligator Alley to see their Messiah.

Quick Florida geography lesson:

FSU = Tallahassee middle of the panhandle, home of the Seminoles
UF = Gainesville near Jacksonville, NE Coast, Florida Gators
Dolphins = Miami near the tip of America's wang, Cubans and drug dealers (not mutually exclusive)

You said the equivalent of "if you want to sell tickets to Buff fans, put it on craigslist Fort Collins"

Dedhed
10-10-2011, 11:14 AM
and we lost... which is like a 0% improvement.


The real idiots are soon to be revealed. This one already has made his presence clear.

MplsBronco
10-10-2011, 11:16 AM
and we lost... which is like a 0% improvement.

Lets see what he does with 2 full weeks, hopefully it will improve but so far through 3.5 he is a sub 50%.

I do not think you can win in the nfl missing WR that frequently.

More insightful commentary from the smartest guy in the room. Damn Tebow should have been able to win that game with ease.

MplsBronco
10-10-2011, 11:17 AM
The real idiots are soon to be revealed. This one already has made his presence clear.

LOUD and clear.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-10-2011, 11:18 AM
Dave's a good poster. I cannot explain his hard on against Tebow, but it will come to pass.

MplsBronco
10-10-2011, 11:19 AM
Dave's a good poster. I cannot explain his hard on against Tebow, but it will come to pass.

Yeah, I like his politics, and usually his football takes, but his statements of "facts" that Tebow is a 3rd stringer and incapable of play has me calling him out.

jhns
10-10-2011, 11:19 AM
Dave's a good poster.

LOL

Good joke.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:20 AM
More insightful commentary from the smartest guy in the room. Damn Tebow should have been able to win that game with ease.

I know moral victories are what you Tebow types are all about... Sorry if I did not give hime enough credit fro trying real hard.

jhns
10-10-2011, 11:22 AM
I know moral victories are what you Tebow types are all about... Sorry if I did not give hime enough credit fro trying real hard.

Or producing points. You forgot to give him credit for that.

Oh wait, you are under the impression that the goal of an offense is a high completion percentage...

How intelligent.

Dedhed
10-10-2011, 11:27 AM
I know moral victories are what you Tebow types are all about... Sorry if I did not give hime enough credit fro trying real hard.
You didn't give him any credit. He took a dead team, and pulled them from a grave. Despite clearly making the team better you said there was no improvement.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 11:28 AM
Dave's a good poster. I cannot explain his hard on against Tebow, but it will come to pass.

Yeah this... I really can't wrap my head around it.

Dedhed
10-10-2011, 11:30 AM
Maybe we could focus our argument towards what he does on Sunday and not what he did 3 years ago in that other league.


We've tried that with your ilk. Like when we referenced that he scored 25 PPG on Sundays, but that doesn't count for you either.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:31 AM
Trust me, when everyones mancrush subsides my stance will not look so crazy.

Right now I'm trying to tell some dork that just got hitched that his bride has a real nice personality but is on the ugly side.

Eldorado
10-10-2011, 11:35 AM
Yeah this... I really can't wrap my head around it.

Really? I totally get it. Tebow 'looks' terrible. But, so far, the facts are, chains move and points go on the board. You just have to get used to the idea of it not looking pretty, but somehow working.

TotallyScrewed
10-10-2011, 11:38 AM
What do you want him to say? "yeah I am ****ed dude, gonna get pissed and hit some skanks and get ready for Tebow time." Actually come to think of it, that would be kind of funny. ;D

I think Orton is one lucky SOB. If I was in his shoes, I'd be one very happy multimillionaire. Orton...."So this is what its like to be second string!. I like it. No more getting hit or boo-ed or nasty press. My paycheck is the same. And I can play golf on Monday...Sweet!"

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 11:38 AM
Trust me, when everyones mancrush subsides my stance will not look so crazy.

Right now I'm trying to tell some dork that just got hitched that his bride has a real nice personality but is on the ugly side.

Does the bride look bad but comes with a huge dowry, is a surgeon and also a gold medalist at sucking a golf ball through a garden hose?

Because if so, spot on analogy.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 11:39 AM
I think Orton is one lucky SOB. If I was in his shoes, I'd be one very happy multimillionaire. Orton...."So this is what its like to be second string!. I like it. No more getting hit or boo-ed or nasty press. My paycheck is the same. And I can play golf on Monday...Sweet!"

He knows exactly what the bench feels like.

Pony Boy
10-10-2011, 11:39 AM
and we lost... which is like a 0% improvement.
Lets see what he does with 2 full weeks, hopefully it will improve but so far through 3.5 he is a sub 50%.

I do not think you can win in the nfl missing WR that frequently.

I think Bear Bryant said it best ............... "We didn't lose; we just ran out of time." ;D

TheDave
10-10-2011, 11:40 AM
Does the bride look bad but comes with a huge dowry, is a surgeon and also a gold medalist at sucking a golf ball through a garden hose?

Because if so, spot on analogy.

Like I said when everyones mancrush wears off we can have a real discussion...

Dedhed
10-10-2011, 11:43 AM
Trust me, when everyones mancrush subsides my stance will not look so crazy.


This is almost verbatim what doomsday prophets argue. "Follow me now, eventually I may be right".

Regardless of what Tebow does, the "start Orton" idea has been proven wrong. Orton never gave us the best chance to win at any point this season.

AlphaSeirra
10-10-2011, 11:44 AM
Tebow had the same poor mechanics and footwork, and the same weak inaccurate arm while at UF.

2 BCS-NC's - Heisman - SEC All Time Record Career PER 170.79, 66.7% completions, 88 TD's to just 16 Ints.

Florida Fans all watched one thing, while the media morons were apparently watching and yapping about something else entirely. :kiddingme
=============

What kind of players did Tebow have to QB against while at UF?
How about C.Vaughn - Ole Miss & Champ Bailey - Ga, Bronco fans should at least be familiar with them. ;)
While he practiced against these 3 NFL players from his own defense;
CB J.Haden NFL Rookie Defensive PoY, FS Reggie 'Freakin' Nelson, SS Major (hit) Wright.

49 Current NFL DB's came from the SEC (284 total current SEC players in the NFL).
There are 4 SEC teams with 30+ NFL players each, (LSU-Bama & Tenn-Fla all with BCS era NC's).

That's the kind of stiff defensive opposition that ole Lucky never sees in the LAC 10/12.....
It's also why S.Bradford/Ok averaged 54 pts/gm until they ran into the an SEC defense (UF).
And UF, with just the #3 SEC defense held Bradford/OU to just 14 pts with all the marbles on the table.
In 2006 #1 Ranked tOSU & Heisman QB T.Smith's offense only got 7 pts after averaging 37 pts/gm during their regular season.

No, the SEC is still not the NFL, but it's as close as you can get without being there.
Of course it's never any kind of a guarantee that a player will be NFL HoF either, but it should at least buy any SEC player a reasonable chance to show.

I'm pointing out those FACTS, to get people to understand that any pretty good QB can look great when
he's going against a school for the deaf & blind type opponent/SoS.

Luck - Jones - Moore or anyone else might be NFL quality, but until you test them against NFL pressure defenses (or at least SEC) you'll never know what you've got. None of them are 'a lock' no matter what the media morons claim.
Just like Tebow, they are ALL a roll of the dice, but at least Tim's already been throught the 'fire' and succeeded.

Also, that the 'on the field' results (Tebow's) mean a whole lot more to a teams fans,
than the 'beauty contest' (style-opinions) will to the media morons. :wave:

TotallyScrewed
10-10-2011, 11:51 AM
Yes, he played like a 2nd year QB who's got a long ways to go and didn't get enough 1st team reps in training camp or weekly practice/prep.

That being said he did a lot right, like not turn over the football, keep drives alive with his feet and was the best red zone threat we've had for a long long time.

I can't remember the last time our offense lined and up and the whole defense had to readjust their front 7 lineup to stack the line of scrimmage because they were completely sold out to stop just ONE player in our offense.

Yes Tebow needs to improve in a lot of areas in the next two/three years but every single QB from John Elway to Andy Dalton had to go through the same learning process.

I'm willing to give him a chance and see what he can do in the next two/three years.

I know his team mates are already on board and so am I.

I think that what we saw from Tim yesterday is enough, given more reps.

He'll win a bunch of designed QB running plays. Enough that the defense has to respect the run from the QB position. Who exactly do you put on Tebow, if you're gonna use a spy? A slow, less elusive linebacker? A small DB? How do you win that match-up?

Once you are forced to stack the line to take away the run, screens and slants will eat your lunch.

And Tebow has shown that he can buy time to get the ball to wide open WR's.

Even a very rusty Tebow was a hellofa lot of fun to watch!!

peacepipe
10-10-2011, 11:54 AM
I think that what we saw from Tim yesterday is enough, given more reps.

He'll win a bunch of designed QB running plays. Enough that the defense has to respect the run from the QB position. Who exactly do you put on Tebow, if you're gonna use a spy? A slow, less elusive linebacker? A small DB? How do you win that match-up?

Once you are forced to stack the line to take away the run, screens and slants will eat your lunch.

And Tebow has shown that he can buy time to get the ball to wide open WR's.

Even a very rusty Tebow was a hellofa lot of fun to watch!!

it isn't the 1960s anymore. LBs aren't slow anymore. it's safe to say LBs nowadays run as fast or faster than tebow.

Gort
10-10-2011, 11:57 AM
I know moral victories are what you Tebow types are all about... Sorry if I did not give hime enough credit fro trying real hard.

a) losing in a blowout. QB ineffective. QB showing no emotion. Broncos showing less life than the zombies on The walking Dead. being embarrassed once again at home by an AFC West opponent. despair for the next game.

or

b) losing on the final play of the game because Denver ran out of time to complete the comeback. QB effective. QB showing lots of emotion. Broncos looking competitive and fired up. opponent being embarrassed that they allowed Denver to close the gap in the 4th quarter. optimism for the next game.

so you choose a), correct?

AlphaSeirra
10-10-2011, 12:01 PM
it isn't the 1960s anymore. LBs aren't slow anymore. it's safe to say LBs nowadays run as fast or faster than tebow.

So what, that hasn't stopped Tebow from leading the Broncos in Yds/Carry for his first 2 seasons.

And he owns the Broncos longest TD run by a QB in their entire History, (40 yds)!

And the media morons (and a few others) claimed that he would not be able to run AT ALL against those fast/tough NFL defenses....

All that, while he continues to lead the Bronco QB's in NFL PER. ^5

Gort
10-10-2011, 12:04 PM
Trust me, when everyones mancrush subsides my stance will not look so crazy.

you should change your avatar to this:

http://media.brainz.org/uploads/2010/10/1463_heavens_gate_468.jpg

fontaine
10-10-2011, 12:11 PM
Trust me, when everyones mancrush subsides my stance will not look so crazy.

Right now I'm trying to tell some dork that just got hitched that his bride has a real nice personality but is on the ugly side.

I hear you and absolutely Tebow has a lot of weakenesses but he's also going to keep drives going and keep us in games we have no business being in because of the skills he has that can't be coached/taught or bought.

I'm willing to give the guy the same chance I gave to Plummer/Cutler hell even Orton and that's to give him at least two seasons to show what he can do and how he can improve.

Dedhed
10-10-2011, 12:21 PM
Like I said when everyones mancrush wears off we can have a real discussion...

The discussion is over. This was never, for most, about Tebow being the savior. It was about Orton having zero upside potential, Tebow showing he was more effective than Orton, and needing to find out what Tebow brings to the table as a log term starter.

We've already quashed your Orton support on all fronts. You're "someday I 'll be able to tell you 'I told you so' stance has no bearing on the previous discussion of Orton vs Tebow. You were wrong.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 12:28 PM
Like I said when everyones mancrush wears off we can have a real discussion...

Man crush?

The guy moves chains and scores points. This isn't a beauty contest. You're not being "football smart" by ignoring it... in fact, you're just being ignorant.

TotallyScrewed
10-10-2011, 12:29 PM
it isn't the 1960s anymore. LBs aren't slow anymore. it's safe to say LBs nowadays run as fast or faster than tebow.

Foot speed and the ability to make you miss...most LB's of today don't have what Tebow has. And arm tackles are not going to get it done.

Put yourself in charge of Miami or any other defense. How do you stop Tebow from running?

Once you commit to stopping Tebow from running, how do the passing lanes look?

I am really curious. This is not a call-out.

TheReverend
10-10-2011, 12:38 PM
Foot speed and the ability to make you miss...most LB's of today don't have what Tebow has. And arm tackles are not going to get it done.

Put yourself in charge of Miami or any other defense. How do you stop Tebow from running?

Once you commit to stopping Tebow from running, how do the passing lanes look?

I am really curious. This is not a call-out.

You have to have an end (or OLB in this case) playing weakside contain along with a LB spying. That's a HUGE boon to both the running and passing games. It certainly doesn't take two players out of the game, but it slows them down dramatically.

fontaine
10-10-2011, 12:58 PM
You have to have an end (or OLB in this case) playing weakside contain along with a LB spying. That's a HUGE boon to both the running and passing games. It certainly doesn't take two players out of the game, but it slows them down dramatically.

Add in a decent RB with the ZBS, a mix of play action passes and designated Tebow rollouts and you're stretching the defense forcing them to cover sideline to sideline.

We did a lot with less when we had Plummer here.

peacepipe
10-10-2011, 01:01 PM
The discussion is over. This was never, for most, about Tebow being the savior. It was about Orton having zero upside potential, Tebow showing he was more effective than Orton, and needing to find out what Tebow brings to the table as a log term starter.

We've already quashed your Orton support on all fronts. You're "someday I 'll be able to tell you 'I told you so' stance has no bearing on the previous discussion of Orton vs Tebow. You were wrong.

far from over, you think because we don't worship tebow that it automaticly makes us orton supporters which isn't the case.

Pony Boy
10-10-2011, 01:28 PM
Like I said when everyones mancrush wears off we can have a real discussion...

You're a good poster Dave but I got to say you're all wet on this one

bendog
10-10-2011, 01:32 PM
Add in a decent RB with the ZBS, a mix of play action passes and designated Tebow rollouts and you're stretching the defense forcing them to cover sideline to sideline.

We did a lot with less when we had Plummer here.

We had 4 1000 yd tailbacks. And Sharpe and R.Smith.

strafen
10-10-2011, 01:33 PM
You're a good poster Dave but I got to say you're all wet on this one

Dude, that's ****ing hilarious!!!! ROFL! LOL Hilarious! Ha!

TheDave
10-10-2011, 01:38 PM
You're a good poster Dave but I got to say you're all wet on this one

Guess we will have to wait and see. FWIW everyone acted exactly the same way when I disagreed with Mcd. Hell there was a time I was a serious hater because I didn't believe Tom Brandstater could play QB in the NFL. I wasn't just being a hater then or now.

Like I have always said. I like the kid and wish him well, I just do not see NFL QB when I watch him play.

Not much more complicated than that...

But rep for the pic ROFL!

strafen
10-10-2011, 01:39 PM
Anyone got any other post game quotes?At the end of his interview, Tebow said, and I quote: "God Bless"

RaiderH8r
10-10-2011, 01:40 PM
I'll take heart any day. I want someone with a passion to win and I don't mind if they wear that passion on their sleeve.

And intensity. and ball juice. Intense, passionate ball juice. Juice. :strong:

bendog
10-10-2011, 01:52 PM
So what, that hasn't stopped Tebow from leading the Broncos in Yds/Carry for his first 2 seasons.

And he owns the Broncos longest TD run by a QB in their entire History, (40 yds)!

And the media morons (and a few others) claimed that he would not be able to run AT ALL against those fast/tough NFL defenses....

All that, while he continues to lead the Bronco QB's in NFL PER. ^5

I don't recall that being said. I do know that Cam doesn't run 10 times a game including runs off of passing plays, and Vick gets hurt every year.

bendog
10-10-2011, 01:52 PM
And intensity. and ball juice. Intense, passionate ball juice. Juice. :strong:

Tim Tebow does NOT juice!

Bronco Yoda
10-10-2011, 01:57 PM
Trust me, when everyones mancrush subsides my stance will not look so crazy.

Right now I'm trying to tell some dork that just got hitched that his bride has a real nice personality but is on the ugly side.

Don't rain on my mancrush Dave. After all the crap that's gone down the last few years in Bronco land.....I, I,

I really need this ROFL!. Ha!

db56
10-10-2011, 01:58 PM
I'm just glad the Plummer,Cutler,Orton fiasco is finally nearing its end, regardless of how Tebow pans out. I'm so sick and tired of not having a leader at the QB position that we can rally around.

IMO, Tebow has the same chance of developing into a starting NFL QB as any other young, inexperienced QB coming into the league. Its now up to him, Its going be fun to watch him develop the rest of this season...

I wonder if Tebow and Walton stayed late after the game to work on the C/QB exchange? Lol

Bronco Yoda
10-10-2011, 02:04 PM
Tebow, It's about time you be getting more comfortable with another man's ass already. Bwwwwhwhwhwwwwwwwaaaaaaaa.

Fox is not too keen on his QB's hunting with a shotgun.

TheDave
10-10-2011, 02:14 PM
Don't rain on my mancrush Dave. After all the crap that's gone down the last few years in Bronco land.....I, I,

I really need this ROFL!. Ha!

I know... Sorry.

FWIW I hope I'm wrong. He is a great kid and is really easy to cheer for. I just have this terrible suspicion that tebow will never be enough of a pocket passer and Fox will never alter the offense enough to fit Tebow.

bendog
10-10-2011, 02:28 PM
I know... Sorry.

FWIW I hope I'm wrong. He is a great kid and is really easy to cheer for. I just have this terrible suspicion that tebow will never be enough of a pocket passer and Fox will never alter the offense enough to fit Tebow.

The kid's gotta be able to pass from the pocket. We'll see about Fox. He's never had a mobile qb.

Pendejo
10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
I know... Sorry.

FWIW I hope I'm wrong. He is a great kid and is really easy to cheer for. I just have this terrible suspicion that tebow will never be enough of a pocket passer and Fox will never alter the offense enough to fit Tebow.

Fox doesn't have to alter sh*t. Tebow just needs the reps. He was getting better as the game went on, and the Chargers knew it. That's why they made the comments they did. Once he got warm they had no answers for him. He has flaws to be sure, but he's the type of athlete that makes up for his shortcomings through maximum effort, and a never say die attitude. He also attacks the defense, and that's what you want. You can't take what they give in the NFL and win much. A quarterback has to be a full on assassin. A "The endzone is mine." type of mentality. Hear the lamentations of the women and all of that.

To this point in admittedly limited duty he has by my count a 13/3 Touchdown to turnover ratio. In every game he's played for the Donks the offense has improved it's productivity compared to the other player under center.

He is a multidimensional football player that makes his team better. You're a f'ing liar or a dumb-dumb if you haven't noticed the difference in compete level the Donks have shown under Tebow. EVERYONE has to match his effort level or look the fool.

We'll see though. Maybe in two and a quarter seasons from now we'll look back and see that Tebow has only won eleven games, and you'll be proven right. But it's highly unlikely.

Rolandftw
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Tebow will go as far as the front office builds a team around him. You build a dominant defense behind him and running attack, and I feel confident Tebow can be a very good QB.

fontaine
10-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Fox doesn't have to alter sh*t. Tebow just needs the reps. He was getting better as the game went on, and the Chargers knew it. That's why they made the comments they did. Once he got warm they had no answers for him. He has flaws to be sure, but he's the type of athlete that makes up for his shortcomings through maximum effort, and a never say die attitude. He also attacks the defense, and that's what you want. You can't take what they give in the NFL and win much. A quarterback has to be a full on assassin. A "The endzone is mine." type of mentality. Hear the lamentations of the women and all of that.

To this point in admittedly limited duty he has by my count a 13/3 Touchdown to turnover ratio. In every game he's played for the Donks the offense has improved it's productivity compared to the other player under center.

He is a multidimensional football player that makes his team better. You're a f'ing liar or a dumb-dumb if you haven't noticed the difference in compete level the Donks have shown under Tebow. EVERYONE has to match his effort level or look the fool.

We'll see though. Maybe in two and a quarter seasons from now we'll look back and see that Tebow has only won eleven games, and you'll be proven right. But it's highly unlikely.

Impressive rant.

Tebow worship, a reference to Conan the Barbarian, and juvenile dumb-dumb insults thrown in for good measure from a dummy like moniker.

And so the Orangemane turns.

Bronco Yoda
10-10-2011, 02:58 PM
I know... Sorry.

FWIW I hope I'm wrong. He is a great kid and is really easy to cheer for. I just have this terrible suspicion that tebow will never be enough of a pocket passer and Fox will never alter the offense enough to fit Tebow.


I feel where you're coming from. There's a lot of if's with him. There's no denying that.

epicSocialism4tw
10-10-2011, 03:05 PM
Tebow will go as far as the front office builds a team around him. You build a dominant defense behind him and running attack, and I feel confident Tebow can be a very good QB.

I'm confident, just as I was with Plummer, that a top-10 defense with a top-5 run defense is enough to win a title with Tebow.

Once the coordinators and the coach figure out how to get Teebs in rhythm and to maintain the offense in that flow, the Broncos will be able to amass some serious yardage.

RaiderH8r
10-10-2011, 08:01 PM
I feel where you're coming from. There's a lot of if's with him. There's no denying that.

That's been the point a majority have been making all along. Yes, Tebow has ifs. Orton is a known quantity. If we want to move forward as a team we need to sort out these ifs that Tebow has. If he works out then great, we move on at other areas of need; which are numerous. If he doesn't work out then we know we can address QB in a QB deep draft. This **** ain't tough but apparently the Orton man-love/Tebow religious hate boneration going on around here couldn't wrap their brains around this simple fact. Orton is gone. Orton is a known quantity. Figure out what Tebow has instead of relying on Merrill Hoge and Trent Dilder's bull**** "insight" and "acumen" on the issue.

vonqkilla
10-10-2011, 08:12 PM
I know... Sorry.

FWIW I hope I'm wrong. He is a great kid and is really easy to cheer for. I just have this terrible suspicion that tebow will never be enough of a pocket passer and Fox will never alter the offense enough to fit Tebow.

Dave, elway said they will sculpt to tebows strengths today.

vonqkilla
10-10-2011, 08:17 PM
I'm confident, just as I was with Plummer, that a top-10 defense with a top-5 run defense is enough to win a title with Tebow.

Once the coordinators and the coach figure out how to get Teebs in rhythm and to maintain the offense in that flow, the Broncos will be able to amass some serious yardage.

Depends who you face in the playoffs. We had the #1 scoring defenae in the nfl in one super bowl.

55/10

But I agree, ill ride with tebow over any college qb not at stanford.

Jay3
10-10-2011, 08:24 PM
Dave, elway said they will sculpt to tebows strengths today.

Did he say "sculpt?" That is latent gay thought.

ol#7
10-11-2011, 03:47 AM
We had 4 1000 yd tailbacks. And Sharpe and R.Smith.

Cant believe nobody called you on this. Sharpe retired before our last AFCC run, our feature back that year was Mike Anderson after we got him back on his last legs, Rod Smith had a bad hip and could barely get open. That 05' team was toothless on offense and we hadnt been world beaters on that side of the ball in quite some time. Shanny correctly saw the offense was worse than the Al Wilson led defense and began retooling after that year, only problem was Al Wilson getting hurt.

Point being, we were creative on offense, especially moving Plummer around. We were an efficient team that year that didnt waste scoring chances. Thats what they can do with Tebow while continuing to add pieces.

I have said it from draft day that I didnt want Tebow, so Im no fanboy, but Tebow is the shortcut to putting this team back on the map if he pans out. We need him to pan out!

Broncoman13
10-11-2011, 04:41 AM
The Dave sounds an awful lot like all these "experts", they don't want Tebow to succeed b/c they said he couldn't and have reputations on the line. Somehow, they think if they are wrong they will be less relevant. Thats what I get from the Dave's takes.

As for Tebow, he will obviously slow down a defense. As an edge rushed, you can't just fly up field an lose contain, and a LB that has to spy will leave a hole in the zone. Hopefully Thomas will come back soon, he could get some solid looks with Tebow. My only concern with Tebow is the short passing game. He has the arm strength but often throws the ball short at the receivers feet. Hopeful that is something that can be fixed with reps...

TonyR
10-11-2011, 06:38 AM
The Dave sounds an awful lot like all these "experts", they don't want Tebow to succeed b/c they said he couldn't and have reputations on the line. Somehow, they think if they are wrong they will be less relevant. Thats what I get from the Dave's takes.

I don't think TheDave doesn't want want Tebow to succeed. Actually quite the contrary. I think he just honestly has doubts that he is the long term answer at QB, and he's entitled to that opinion. Unfortunately it's not a popular opinion so mob mentality sets in and people with that opinion get slammed. I don't at all see TheDave bashing Tebow but for some reason people are very sensitive to anything perceived as remotely negative in discussing him. Tebow is an exciting player and he's very easy to like. But I think Broncos fans are starved for something to get excited about and they may over compensate a little when it comes to Tebow...

jhns
10-11-2011, 07:08 AM
I don't think TheDave doesn't want want Tebow to succeed. Actually quite the contrary. I think he just honestly has doubts that he is the long term answer at QB, and he's entitled to that opinion. Unfortunately it's not a popular opinion so mob mentality sets in and people with that opinion get slammed. I don't at all see TheDave bashing Tebow but for some reason people are very sensitive to anything perceived as remotely negative in discussing him. Tebow is an exciting player and he's very easy to like. But I think Broncos fans are starved for something to get excited about and they may over compensate a little when it comes to Tebow...

Remotely negative? You haven't been reading his posts. If you can't get a single positive from Tebows play, when he has been as productive as he has been, you are doing it wrong.

Haters gonna hate.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:19 AM
He may have been 4/10 with accuracy issues, but he was infinitely better than what the best chance to win was producing.

Lets see 40% yep that is what happenes when you get no reps witht eh recievers your throwing to for that matter no REPS at all throwing the ball.

Coming in more or less cold

Worrying about the snaps under center who you have not took a snap from since preseason..

WHy is it hard for folks to understand that once he gets some reps he will improve by probably 15%. Probably not more than that in his first year.. But frankly I can live with that as long as he is steadyly improving over the next few years..

He probably will never be a 65% guy but all the other things he brings to the field will make him successful.

May never get win a superbowl but not many QB's do.. But like John E did was entertaining in his early years..

He needs a steady wise old Vet behind him to give him sideline advise, someone that knows he is not going tobeat him out but is willing to earn his 2 mil a year by helping to mentor him..

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:22 AM
The NFL is a business. You win, you're in, you lose, you're out.
This is not fantasy football, man.
What you've described above is too laughable...

and your the expert now tha is laugh able..


Have not "played" FF since I figured out it was an unrealistic game some 6 years or so ago.

I've been a BRONCO fan since before they were even named.

SO take your kiddie comments and play them on someone that your older than..

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:26 AM
Maybe, unfortunately accuracy seems to be one of those god given gifts. Sure you can work on mechanics and try to improve, and hopefully he will.

It's just MO either you have accuracy or you do not.

The one saving grace with this kid is his body type. If he can stay healthy and use his legs to buy time, hopefully he can open up some of those windows and the accuracy issues will be diminished.

Do you think that Brady was born with his accuracy?

NO great QB came out of the womb that way, they took years of practice to hone their skills.

At each level they have to learn to deal with the increasing speed of the game..

So far he has done nothing but become the best at each level he has played.

Is there some reason YOU feel he can't improve his accuracy with practice?

barryr
10-11-2011, 09:28 AM
I think the best question is why some Bronco fans seemingly are rooting for Tebow to fail? They are jealous of him? They don't like he is religious and willing to admit it in public? Oh, the horror! Or that he is against abortion? Oh, he uses free speech, how dare he do that! I know he has not done or said anything to show he is a jerk or a bad teammate. Seems to me it is all about stupid, silly political reasons some put above all else for those to root against Tebow and that is plain sad.

bowtown
10-11-2011, 09:30 AM
I think the best question is why some Bronco fans seemingly are rooting for Tebow to fail? They are jealous of him? They don't like he is religious and willing to admit it in public? Oh, the horror! Or that he is against abortion? Oh, he uses free speech, how dare he do that! I know he has not done or said anything to show he is a jerk or a bad teammate. Seems to me it is all about stupid, silly political reasons some put above all else for those to root against Tebow and that is plain sad.

Besides TGN, who is rooting against him?

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:30 AM
Wow...

once again very ass tute

barryr
10-11-2011, 09:32 AM
Besides TGN, who is rooting against him?

I have seen plenty of posts about "Tebow fans" and "getting what they want" type of posts.

55CrushEm
10-11-2011, 09:33 AM
Lets see 40% yep that is what happenes when you get no reps witht eh recievers your throwing to for that matter no REPS at all throwing the ball.

Coming in more or less cold

Worrying about the snaps under center who you have not took a snap from since preseason..

WHy is it hard for folks to understand that once he gets some reps he will improve by probably 15%. Probably not more than that in his first year.. But frankly I can live with that as long as he is steadyly improving over the next few years..

He probably will never be a 65% guy but all the other things he brings to the field will make him successful.

May never get win a superbowl but not many QB's do.. But like John E did was entertaining in his early years..

He needs a steady wise old Vet behind him to give him sideline advise, someone that knows he is not going tobeat him out but is willing to earn his 2 mil a year by helping to mentor him..

FWIW.....Elways career completion percentage was just over 55%......56.9% In fact, Elway only broke 60% completion in THREE of his 16 seasons.

strafen
10-11-2011, 11:23 AM
and your the expert now tha is laugh able..


Have not "played" FF since I figured out it was an unrealistic game some 6 years or so ago.

I've been a BRONCO fan since before they were even named.

SO take your kiddie comments and play them on someone that your older than..I'm not an expert, you're right, but you're not very bright either...
This is what you've said. it's got nothing to do with real FF, but your own fantasy in your head...

Now that said if he does that at home the staduim will go nuts, He can easily start Orton on the road and insert tebow IF Orton does not come along and frankly IN MIA he has a HUGE incentive to show them they made a huge mistake..

Then He just may give up and roll over knowing h=that his chances of getting another contract in DEN a growing slimmer by the day..

How about he has a career game against MIA and then they make teh trade after the game.. WIN WIN for everyone involved.. that way he can just stay in MIA, send for his wife and baby..
I can live with that..Get real!

lonestar
10-11-2011, 08:45 PM
Add in a decent RB with the ZBS, a mix of play action passes and designated Tebow rollouts and you're stretching the defense forcing them to cover sideline to sideline.

We did a lot with less when we had Plummer here.

With Orton they could rush 4 in some cases 3 and not worry too much about him extending the play..

That last play with one second left took about 14 seconds to end..

Tebow makes every man on Defense play the entire time until the whistle blows, not so much with Orton..

When you do thatt the defense is sucking wind, about the middle of the third period..

Combine that with some no huddle down the road at Mile high means more wins for us..

lonestar
10-11-2011, 08:57 PM
FWIW.....Elways career completion percentage was just over 55%......56.9% In fact, Elway only broke 60% completion in THREE of his 16 seasons.

Thanks thought that was about it but do not like to quote excacts unless I either know them from past research.

ABout 95% of the posts I do are on an Iphone and researching on one is difficult at best with such a smal screen.. Bigger than my Balck berry but not worth teh time..

Thanks for reminding all of the exact numbers for our HOF QB, why anyone is expecting Tebow to be better coming out of the womb is beyond me..

Lets give the kid a chance to see if he will measure up to the long shadow that has run many a promising QB out of town..

Most wishing they had never heard of DEN.



I doubt he will be a HOF guy but Then John was not until TD Etal came to town.

I'm willing to give him the chance to do so..

vonqkilla
10-11-2011, 08:57 PM
With Orton they could rush 4 in some cases 3 and not worry too much about him extending the play..

That last play with one second left took about 14 seconds to end..

Tebow makes every man on Defense play the entire time until the whistle blows, not so much with Orton..

When you do thatt the defense is sucking wind, about the middle of the third period..

Combine that with some no huddle down the road at Mile high means more wins for us..

I remember when every one was clamoring for us to run a no huddle all the time in like 88 or so. Pre Bills/Bengals I think, anyway, it worked. With Tebows running ability it could be the answer. Look at when he was sucessful, down vs Texans, and SD twice.

Well run every play like your down 10. Furthermore, treat 1st down like its 2nd down and go for chunk yardage every play.

3rd and 3, I want 15.

1st and ten, I want 15.

& so on.

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:01 PM
I'm not an expert, you're right, but you're not very bright either...
This is what you've said. it's got nothing to do with real FF, but your own fantasy in your head...

talk about being a blowhard..

Originally Posted by lonestar View Post
Now that said if he does that at home the staduim will go nuts, He can easily start Orton on the road and insert tebow IF Orton does not come along and frankly IN MIA he has a HUGE incentive to show them they made a huge mistake..

Then He just may give up and roll over knowing h=that his chances of getting another contract in DEN a growing slimmer by the day..

How about he has a career game against MIA and then they make the trade after the game.. WIN WIN for everyone involved.. that way he can just stay in MIA, send for his wife and baby..
I can live with that..


Get real!

Sorry I was thinking we played next week before the trading deadline..

Other than that it is called creative thinking.. Thinking outside the box..
Sorry it was above (your comprehension) head..


it would have been win win for Everyone..

lonestar
10-11-2011, 09:03 PM
I remember when every one was clamoring for us to run a no huddle all the time in like 88 or so. Pre Bills/Bengals I think, anyway, it worked. With Tebows running ability it could be the answer. Look at when he was sucessful, down vs Texans, and SD twice.

Well run every play like your down 10. Furthermore, treat 1st down like its 2nd down and go for chunk yardage every play.

3rd and 3, I want 15.

1st and ten, I want 15.

& so on.

Watch out the haters will be out for your ass for thinking outside the box..

As for no huddle at home with the crowd and altitude the poors bastaards would never know what hit them..