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vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 06:29 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_15667056

You realize by not addressing the 55% escalator, you are leaving a further impression you are covering up the hidden agenda. Fans think they wont put him in until week 11 to ensure this 55% won't be paid. And fans dont trust you because they think you are willing to say anything, to keep the broncos coming with quotes and sources. Please address the real escalator at 55% for 2011 &12. Not saying I am in that camp, but writing about escalators without telling the whole story is pouring gas on the fire.

Thanks Mike,

Please email him too.

Today he wrote about a 45% escalator?!?!

Is he covering for the team?

DeuceOfClub
10-07-2011, 06:40 AM
Good job, all we need now is an online petition.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 06:41 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19059551

That is the new article.

montrose
10-07-2011, 06:44 AM
Where was this 55% escalator originally reported?

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 06:47 AM
Where was this 55% escalator originally reported?

First link up top

bronco militia
10-07-2011, 06:57 AM
55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

so now it's any ONE year at 45% of the plays?

MacGruder
10-07-2011, 07:09 AM
Funny how CHATTY guys like Xanders get when they are called cheapskates... or defending Orton of all people... but they let Tebow twist in the wind in the media when there are claims he is worse than Webber and the media is skewering HIM.

RaiderH8r
10-07-2011, 08:07 AM
Wilhite is out due to sickness? I think he's actually getting treated for injuries related to getting burned all day long against the Pack.

Flex Gunmetal
10-07-2011, 08:46 AM
Wilhite is out due to sickness? I think he's actually getting treated for injuries related to getting burned all day long against the Pack.

lulz@your avatar.





Juuuuuuuuuust a bit outside!

crush17
10-07-2011, 08:55 AM
It pisses me off kinda, because I wrote Klis a long, thought out email asking him to clarify the escalators in Tebows contract very recently. I dont want to sound arrogant, but the timing of this article just happens to fall right in line with when I sent him my email. Whatevs tho, he didnt even really explain it that well.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 10:21 AM
Its bs, I think hes covering for them clearly.

broncosteven
10-07-2011, 10:26 AM
Wilhite is out due to sickness? I think he's actually getting treated for injuries related to getting burned all day long against the Pack.

Roc Alexander should set up a hotline to console rookie CB's that the Broncos throw under the bus way too early.

Meck77
10-07-2011, 10:28 AM
I'd bet my left nut Klis reads the mane, is probably registered here, and who knows maybe even dropped a post. Got something to say to him. He'll probably read it right here. No need to email him.

Back when Disco and I were covering camp and hitting the road games we'd run into all these types of guys and would talk to them. They knew about the mane. Hell even schefter got in our face about people ripping him on the omane years ago when he got his promotion to NFL network. He got all pissed off that some people called him a sellout or something. Adam you are good dude if you are still lurking.:thumbs:

TheReverend
10-07-2011, 10:35 AM
I'd bet my left nut Klis reads the mane, is probably registered here, and who knows maybe even dropped a post. Got something to say to him. He'll probably read it right here. No need to email him.

^ That

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 10:36 AM
I'd bet my left nut Klis reads the mane, is probably registered here, and who knows maybe even dropped a post. Got something to say to him. He'll probably read it right here. No need to email him.

Back when Disco and I were covering camp and hitting the road games we'd run into all these types of guys and would talk to them. They knew about the mane. Hell even schefter got in our face about people ripping him on the omane years ago when he got his promotion to NFL network.
Last time I emailed him, responded in an hour, this time...


Notta.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2011, 10:46 AM
Last time I emailed him, responded in an hour, this time...


Notta.

ITZ CONSPIRASEEZ!

What incentive would Klis have to cover up for the organization?

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 10:46 AM
I'd bet my left nut Klis reads the mane, is probably registered here, and who knows maybe even dropped a post. Got something to say to him. He'll probably read it right here. No need to email him.

Back when Disco and I were covering camp and hitting the road games we'd run into all these types of guys and would talk to them. They knew about the mane. Hell even schefter got in our face about people ripping him on the omane years ago when he got his promotion to NFL network.
Last time I emailed him, responded in an hour, this time...


Notta.

Popps
10-07-2011, 10:48 AM
Last time I emailed him, responded in an hour, this time...


Notta.

http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/fatal-attraction.jpg

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 10:49 AM
ITZ CONSPIRASEEZ!

What incentive would Klis have to cover up for the organization?

Good ? Access. Sources. Stories.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2011, 10:51 AM
Good ? Access. Sources. Stories.

You really think the Broncos would cut off access to the only local paper?

If so, why has Woody's access not been restricted?

Hmmm. Yeah.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 10:55 AM
http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/fatal-attraction.jpg

nippy in there.

I really have been suspicious of klis esp when McD was coach. Trading a 1st for a Second, so stupid, nothing out of him. He admits he doesn't know alot about football. Clearly 95% of posters would do a better job. I smell a coverup. Unless tebow has to get us to playoffs and 55%, at which point I would disregard it as well.

Lol but not really.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 10:56 AM
You really think the Broncos would cut off access to the only local paper?

If so, why has Woody's access not been restricted?

Hmmm. Yeah.

Different guys. Woody is the big dog. Maybe im wrong, but even if no coverup, horrible reporting.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2011, 10:58 AM
Different guys. Woody is the big dog. Maybe im wrong, but even if no coverup, horrible reporting.

Because the numbers don't add up to what you believe they should be? Hmm.

Woody is the big dog, but he'd still have his access pulled if he was ripping on the FO as much as he has been if -- AND ONLY IF -- there was something to cover up.

I guess I just don't see why every single crazy conspiracy theory about why Tim isn't on the field is more palatable than admitting, "Maybe the kid just isn't ready yet."

jhns
10-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Because the numbers don't add up to what you believe they should be? Hmm.

Woody is the big dog, but he'd still have his access pulled if he was ripping on the FO as much as he has been if -- AND ONLY IF -- there was something to cover up.

I guess I just don't see why every single crazy conspiracy theory about why Tim isn't on the field is more palatable than admitting, "Maybe the kid just isn't ready yet."

Yeah! Drop the conspiracies and realize we hired an incompetent coach. It is that simple.

Cleo McDowell
10-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Hi Guys!

- Mike K.

Dedhed
10-07-2011, 11:07 AM
If the contract has the potential to double, there is $11m+ in play in escalators, so clearly Klis is omitting certain information regarding escalators. Who knows if it's conspiratorial or not, but at bet it's lazy, and certainly doesn't clarify the issue or prove that the contract isn't an issue.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 11:11 AM
If the contract has the potential to double, there is $11m+ in play in escalators, so clearly Klis is omitting certain information regarding escalators. Who knows if it's conspiratorial or not, but at bet it's lazy, and certainly doesn't clarify the issue or prove that the contract isn't an issue.

Exactly, if your gonna try to put the issue to bed, be accurate, his article just made me believe it more.

RaiderH8r
10-07-2011, 11:19 AM
http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/fatal-attraction.jpg

Turkey's done.

uplink
10-07-2011, 11:22 AM
Klis and the other 3 main broncos reporters from the post: Paige, Legwold, Krieger. Are really not that bad. At least they put some effort into writing their stores, though they may be wrong sometimes. Some reporters in the past didn't seem to make any effort, like Bill Williamson. So it could be worse

crush17
10-07-2011, 11:29 AM
Klis and the other 3 main broncos reporters from the post: Paige, Legwold, Krieger. Are really not that bad. At least they put some effort into writing their stores, though they may be wrong sometimes. Some reporters in the past didn't seem to make any effort, like Bill Williamson. So it could be worse

Nah, theyre all rubbish.
Lindsay Jones is the only one who I can consistently tolerate.

It may be a moot point soon though as Ive heard The Post is laying off at least 20 of their writers soon.

bendog
10-07-2011, 11:29 AM
hAVE FAITH!

Kaylore
10-07-2011, 12:20 PM
The Fan was reporting that Tebow restructured his contract to take more money now in lieu of bonuses but I haven't seen this reported anywhere else and didn't listen long enough to know if it was a rumor or not.

bendog
10-07-2011, 12:25 PM
Tebow = more concession and club seat sales. Tebow playing competently = using the no 1 on the front 7 (or possibly a runner as Fox likes no 1 runners, but I doubt Elway would want that) and our no 2 and no 3 (which will both be in the top 100 or very close) on bpa with TB, OL, DL, LB and CB. A better team - more concession and club seat sales.

It's not escalators.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 12:52 PM
Listening to klis yesterday at 102.3. denversportsstation.com

Again talking 45% though. Now he's saying 35% !?!?!?!
So on 10/6 he's sure its 35%, 10/7 its 45%, and last year its 55%

Who knows with reporting like this.

Really bad.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
10-07-2011, 01:44 PM
The Fan was reporting that Tebow restructured his contract to take more money now in lieu of bonuses but I haven't seen this reported anywhere else and didn't listen long enough to know if it was a rumor or not.

The fan was misinformed, they were confused about what the "bonus" was that was paid to Tebow this season.

His agent wrote the contract to protect Tebow in the event of a lockout. The day Tebow signed his contract, he had roughly 11 million or so in guaranteed salary through 2014, with a portion of 2014 guaranteed. The "bonus" this season was basically an advance of his guaranteed salaries through 2014. It was no bonus. He didn't restructure. He was paid his full guaranteed sum up front due to the lockout protection language in his contract. Essentially, what this means is that as long as Tebow does not hit any escalators, the Broncos don't owe him a penny more on his contract. Now, the contract still gets prorated out through 2014 for salary cap purposes.


Today's report seems misinformed as well. There is the one time playing incentive for a million dollars or whatever it is, but that is tiddlywinks. In the sense today's article is reporting that is insignificant, I would agree. But nobody gives a crap about that. We care about the mid-tier incentives, which are the 55% playing time in 2 of the first 3 years, or 70% in 2013. The team just has to make the Playoffs once by 2014, and Tebow just needs to rank in the middle of the pack statistically as a QB to trigger the contract to double. If the team makes the Playoffs several times by 2014, and Tebow finishes as a top QB in the NFL complete with Pro Bowl and MVP honors, then the contract would triple. But nobody really cares about that because if he's that good, we can afford to pay the full 33 million, even though the now additional 22 million would be prorated out over the last few years, making Tebow's yearly pay for lets say 2013 and 2014, roughly 13 million per season. But he'd be worth Peyton Manning money at that point, right?

The concern is solely with the mid-tier incentives which would appear pretty easy to obtain providing he actually gets to play and start. The odds of the team making the playoffs once in the next 4 years is probably pretty good, and the odds Tebow puts up solid statistics over the next 4 years are pretty strong as well. That would trigger the contract to double to 22 million, that additional 11 million would be prorated out over the remaining contract years after the triggering of the escalator. So, if Tebow triggers that by 2012. His base salary for 2013 and 2014 would now be roughly 8 million each year instead of 2 million. And with the new rookie wage scales guaranteeing such cheap contracts with no escalators for elite QBs, I think the Broncos are scared to holy hell about Tebow's escalators, especially with Bowlen seemingly unable to give out additional cash at this time.

Kaylore
10-07-2011, 01:53 PM
Well if he did restructure, it would mean they were either going to play or trade him.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
10-07-2011, 01:57 PM
Well if he did restructure, it would mean they were either going to play or trade him.

Would be true, but some posters on Mania looked up a clause in the CBA which prevented draft picks from restructuring their contracts within the first two years after signing. I didn't personally verify that, but they provided links and quotes and others seemed to agree it held up.

If someone on the Mane wants to fact check that, it could absolutely prove at least some of these reporters don't have a clue.

Inkana7
10-07-2011, 02:15 PM
This whole Tebow escalator thing is really stupid.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
10-07-2011, 02:40 PM
This whole Tebow escalator thing is really stupid.

Sure, unless you're a business owner dealing with financial insolvency issues due to losing your shirt in the real estate crash. Then that extra 11 million in cash you would have to come up with, starts looking really important. Especially if it's to pay an employee you're not even sure you want to be stuck with.


I don't like it either, but I understand completely where Joe Ellis and Pat Bowlen are coming from. And I'd probably handle it the exact same way to minimize my financial risk and increase my flexibility.

Chris
10-07-2011, 02:53 PM
I'd bet my left nut Klis reads the mane, is probably registered here, and who knows maybe even dropped a post. Got something to say to him. He'll probably read it right here. No need to email him.

Back when Disco and I were covering camp and hitting the road games we'd run into all these types of guys and would talk to them. They knew about the mane. Hell even schefter got in our face about people ripping him on the omane years ago when he got his promotion to NFL network. He got all pissed off that some people called him a sellout or something. Adam you are good dude if you are still lurking.:thumbs:

This is true of any industry. People will lurk to get a sense of what people are feeling, especially to see what the hardcore guys are thinking.

teknic
10-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Sure, unless you're a business owner dealing with financial insolvency issues due to losing your shirt in the real estate crash. Then that extra 11 million in cash you would have to come up with, starts looking really important. Especially if it's to pay an employee you're not even sure you want to be stuck with.


I don't like it either, but I understand completely where Joe Ellis and Pat Bowlen are coming from. And I'd probably handle it the exact same way to minimize my financial risk and increase my flexibility.

I really hope this isn't true. If it is, Bowlen needs to sell the team ASAP. I will forever have the great memories of two superbowls he brought to Denver, but if you don't have the cash to spend, you have no business being an owner in the NFL. Bowlen's personal businesses should have little effect as NFL teams are already returning quite large profits to the owners every year, so I don't see how he could be low on assets.

MacGruder
10-07-2011, 03:16 PM
I really hope this isn't true. If it is, Bowlen needs to sell the team ASAP. I will forever have the great memories of two superbowls he brought to Denver, but if you don't have the cash to spend, you have no business being an owner in the NFL. Bowlen's personal businesses should have little effect as NFL teams are already returning quite large profits to the owners every year, so I don't see how he could be low on assets.

I wouldn't blame the owner for this... I would blame Orton. He sucks so bad the Broncos can't get rid of him.

Orton is like some kind of curse the Broncos can't get rid of. Now they have a coach that will likely NEVER let him go either. Especially because Fox is such a wimp he is terrified of how exciting Tebow makes the game..

titan
10-07-2011, 03:42 PM
I doubt Klis is "covering for the team". When he was on the baseball beat he was the one who found out about the humidor and kept pressing on the Rockies until they finally admitted it.

Klis, Legwold, and Lindsey Jones do a good job IMO. Woody has good stuff sometimes, but other times just does opinion pieces without much substance.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Epic call on 1043 by james from mile high sports.

The battle is on, james called klis an arm of broncos pr. Awesome call.

KipCorrington25
10-07-2011, 03:49 PM
I'd bet my left nut Klis reads the mane, is probably registered here, and who knows maybe even dropped a post. Got something to say to him. He'll probably read it right here. No need to email him.

Back when Disco and I were covering camp and hitting the road games we'd run into all these types of guys and would talk to them. They knew about the mane. Hell even schefter got in our face about people ripping him on the omane years ago when he got his promotion to NFL network. He got all pissed off that some people called him a sellout or something. Adam you are good dude if you are still lurking.:thumbs:

I can't see Adam Scheftler getting in anyone's face, that little guy couldn't intimidate Stephen Hawking.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 03:52 PM
http://www.milehighsports.com/?p=6388

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 03:59 PM
Klis up next on 102.3

Should be good.

Blueflame
10-07-2011, 04:01 PM
BS, MacGruder. Orton hasn't done a single thing wrong; he cannot help being the athlete he is and should not be blasted or criticized "for not being better". He is what he is and has always been. If you want to assign blame, aim it properly: at McDaniels. He's the man who made the business deal that brought Kyle Orton to Denver. And he is also the man who reached to draft Tim Tebow. And he is also the (first) man who benched Tebow for Orton. This whole QB mess is McDaniels' doing.

tsiguy96
10-07-2011, 04:05 PM
what equals to a larger amount of money, the bonus that denver would pay tebow if he played, or the amount of total revenue tebow would draw if he were to start?

absolutely silly to say they arent playing him due to contract.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19059551?utm_medium=facebook

can we please get over this contract thing?

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 04:12 PM
So klis says it is playing time plus +++++++++

the incentives.

Which are probowl, playoffs, etc...

Id like florio to review the contract, lol.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
10-07-2011, 04:28 PM
http://www.milehighsports.com/?p=6388

No idea whom those guys are, but they took my theory and ran with it. Good, maybe we can get this thing to go national and finally get some answers.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
10-07-2011, 04:33 PM
what equals to a larger amount of money, the bonus that denver would pay tebow if he played, or the amount of total revenue tebow would draw if he were to start?

absolutely silly to say they arent playing him due to contract.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19059551?utm_medium=facebook

can we please get over this contract thing?


Well, with revenue sharing and the team already selling out games, Tebow would not add much money to Bowlen's wallet. Revenue sharing makes this a united business, which is why they have the antitrust exemption. The controlling theory is that a team doesn't make money off a player outside of helping to sell out a stadium. The Broncos don't own Tebow's image either. That's the NFLPA.

So, in terms of financial risk, unless they believe Tebow can bring multiple home playoff games, which they clearly don't, there is a greater chance they lose money by playing him.

Bronx33
10-07-2011, 04:39 PM
And its always about the money in the end...

maher_tyler
10-07-2011, 04:42 PM
I really hope this isn't true. If it is, Bowlen needs to sell the team ASAP. I will forever have the great memories of two superbowls he brought to Denver, but if you don't have the cash to spend, you have no business being an owner in the NFL. Bowlen's personal businesses should have little effect as NFL teams are already returning quite large profits to the owners every year, so I don't see how he could be low on assets.

Tebow has had the most jersey sales since coming into the league. How much profit do teams get for jersey sales??

MacGruder
10-07-2011, 05:25 PM
BS, MacGruder. Orton hasn't done a single thing wrong; he cannot help being the athlete he is and should not be blasted or criticized "for not being better". He is what he is and has always been.

You mean a horrible player and a horrible teammate who is making millions because of the system McDaniel put him in and completely inflated his stats.. the guy is probably the worst conditioned athlete in the NFL and appears to do little to change that. Not only does he not deliver making all that money but he appears to be a locker room problem dividing the team and does little to help the players behind him like Tebow.. while making millions and LOSING. As I have said in the past, Tebow and Orton could be the perfect tandem if only Orton wasn't such a child and increasing the drama rather than diffusing it.

If you want to assign blame, aim it properly: at McDaniels. He's the man who made the business deal that brought Kyle Orton to Denver.

You can't blame McD for that.. NO one could fathom how bad Orton is completely. Orton isn't entirely to blame though.. it is the fault of McD and guys like Fox and Elway in that they don't understand how Orton can appear to be a safe choice when in reality he hurts the team more than helps them It's almost impossible to quantify intangibles like leadership. Which is why Orton is so overrated Tebow so underrated..

And he is also the man who reached to draft Tim Tebow.

Reach? Do you realize Tebow outperformed every rookie in the time he played last season.. including Orton!

And he is also the (first) man who benched Tebow for Orton. This whole QB mess is McDaniels' doing.

This gets back to what I was saying about quantifying intangibles.. McD was benching Tebow because he thought the team was terrible. he was protecting Tebow from the team not the other way around. But McD did not realize how much Orton's lack of leadership hurt the team making the team underrated.

Also, if Orton wasn't dividing the team because of his immaturity and poor leadership Tebow COULD have been used more and it wouldn't have been an issue playing them both together.

Popps
10-07-2011, 05:27 PM
I've read this a few different ways in a few different places.

If Tebow played every game from here out, for the rest of THIS season only... how does that affect his contract THIS year?

In other words, I thought I had read this bonus to be only if he played x% over a 2 year period.

MacGruder
10-07-2011, 05:28 PM
.

So, in terms of financial risk, unless they believe Tebow can bring multiple home playoff games, which they clearly don't, there is a greater chance they lose money by playing him.

One area I think Tebow could help them financially is with a TV contract... do you know when the last one signed was and when a new one is coming? They could be gearing up for something like that in the future.

How much of a part of the teams finances does this account for? I would think it would be their biggest moneymaker.

TheReverend
10-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Tebow has had the most jersey sales since coming into the league. How much profit do teams get for jersey sales??

The Broncos get 1/32 of Tebow's jersey sales.

Same amount as the Jaguars, Cardinals, Redskins, etc.

Blueflame
10-07-2011, 05:43 PM
Um... no. Orton is a mediocre QB just as he has always been... just as he was the day McDaniels made the deal that brought him to Denver. And he's not "horrible" either as a player or as a teammate. But we "get it" that you hate him and therefore want to believe that he's a horrible human being.

Furthermore, the QB controversy is not because of Orton; it's because of Tebow ("the Tebow thing"). Don't believe me? If Tebow was with any other franchise... that does not already have an elite QB on their roster... (a franchise like Seattle for instance), a QB controversy would immediately exist in that locker room/FO/fanbase too. And Denver would not have a QB controversy right now if our depth chart consisted of Orton, Quinn, and Weber. You take Tebow out of the equation and the controversy and conflict goes away. As long as he's in Denver.... and not yet ready to start... we're going to have a QB controversy regardless of who he's sitting behind (Orton, Quinn, whoever).

On edit, however.... this thread is about Klis; not Orton or Tebow. Let's move it back to topic.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 05:45 PM
I've read this a few different ways in a few different places.

If Tebow played every game from here out, for the rest of THIS season only... how does that affect his contract THIS year?

In other words, I thought I had read this bonus to be only if he played x% over a 2 year period.

It doesnt. 2/3 first 3 seasons 55% of snaps, + incentives = contract doubles.

Klis forgot the word AND in his first article. Had he put that in, would have saved alot of time.

/thread

teknic
10-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Um... no. Orton is a mediocre QB just as he has always been... just as he was the day McDaniels made the deal that brought him to Denver. And he's not "horrible" either as a player or as a teammate. But we "get it" that you hate him and therefore want to believe that he's a horrible human being.

I'm not trying to defend MacGruder here, but in all fairness, Orton is pretty horrible.

MacGruder
10-07-2011, 06:22 PM
I'm not trying to defend MacGruder here, but in all fairness, Orton is pretty horrible.

Defend me for what?

Popps
10-07-2011, 07:09 PM
It doesnt. 2/3 first 3 seasons 55% of snaps, + incentives = contract doubles.

Klis forgot the word AND in his first article. Had he put that in, would have saved alot of time.

/thread

Right, so Tebow could play the rest of this season (every snap) without bumping his salary by any significant amount, right?

Popps
10-07-2011, 07:39 PM
No idea whom those guys are, but they took my theory and ran with it. Good,

Except for the minor detail that you seem to be totally wrong. Besides that though, it's pretty sweet.

vonqkilla
10-07-2011, 08:17 PM
Right, so Tebow could play the rest of this season (every snap) without bumping his salary by any significant amount, right?

Right.

SoCalBronco
10-07-2011, 08:18 PM
ITZ CONSPIRASEEZ!

What incentive would Klis have to cover up for the organization?

Access/steady stream of info for his articles.

This isn't the first time Klis has carried water for management and it won't be the last either.

Popps
10-07-2011, 08:24 PM
Access/steady stream of info for his articles.

This isn't the first time Klis has carried water for management and it won't be the last either.

SoCal,

So, correct him, then. How are you reading this contract language differently? Because I've yet to see anyone make it hold up.

It appears Tebow could have played this entire season without any significant contract escalation.

Instead of accusing Klis of being on the team payroll, can you just correct him?

Jay3
10-07-2011, 08:25 PM
Right, so Tebow could play the rest of this season (every snap) without bumping his salary by any significant amount, right?

Correct. It just means if they want to give him a shot and start him next year, the combination would cause them to pay $11 million more. And staring him that next year would cost $11 million more.

So leaving him on the bench this year avoids payment of $11 million either way.

Popps
10-07-2011, 08:28 PM
Correct. It just means if they want to give him a shot and start him next year, the combination would cause them to pay $11 million more. And staring him that next year would cost $11 million more.

So leaving him on the bench this year avoids payment of $11 million either way.

Conversely, playing him out this year costs them nothing, essentially?

Why on earth wouldn't they take the free look NOW, instead of potentially passing up on 1st round QBs this coming draft?

If it cost them nothing to look now, why not just look now? Why wait? Everyone knows we're not a playoff team and the entire city of Denver has lumberjack fever. They make the fan-base happy, instantly... spend nothing... and find out what they have before the draft.

Where's the problem?

Orton is getting paid no matter what, so let's not even discuss him at this point.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
10-07-2011, 08:50 PM
SoCal,

So, correct him, then. How are you reading this contract language differently? Because I've yet to see anyone make it hold up.

It appears Tebow could have played this entire season without any significant contract escalation.

Instead of accusing Klis of being on the team payroll, can you just correct him?

I know this wasn't addressed to myself, but I wanted to respond.


It's analytical thinking on multiple levels. You play Tebow this year, you've accomplished/risked three things immediately.

1) Instead of removing the 55% escalators for all time, it remains locked in. Denver makes a playoff appearence and Tebow performs decent statistically any year up to 2014, his contract doubles. Not playing Tebow this year completely erases the 55% escalator, and instead the only remaining escalator for that mid-tier incentive is now playing 70% in 2013. Essentially, by benching Tebow this year, you can now start him all of 2012 and up to 69% of the snaps in 2013 with no additional financial risk. That's a hell of an evaluation period. The team would also have to pay the 1 million one time playing time bonus whenever he starts 45%.

2) Trade value. No team in the NFL wants Tebow's non-wage scale contract. However, a team would likely be willing to trade for him as long as the contract has no threat of doubling. We play him this year, and then decide to trade him because we don't believe in him or have a shot at a better QB in the draft, nobody wants him because now they can't start him. Meanwhile, you don't play him this year, now you can trade him to a team for 2012, they can start him the entire season and even into 2013, and decide where to go from there. Clearly not playing him helps with trade value.

3) Fan support. Maybe Tebow plays just well enough to rally the fanbase. Good luck selling the fanbase on Tebow not being good enough then and the need for a new QB. There's a very good chance the front office wants to draft their own QB from this upcoming QB-rich draft. Apparently, at least one person is firmly against Tebow in our front office. And I guarantee Joe Ellis isn't cheering him on. It seems clear from recent interviews that the team does not want to go to the trouble of designing an offense around Tebow. Fox wants his offense. Period. And he does not think Tebow fits his profile of QB.



Meanwhile, by not playing him, you're avoiding financial risk, you're keeping your options open for drafting a new QB, and you've maintained Tebow's trade value. And if you do decide to keep Tebow, now you've got until late in the season in 2013 before you must decide if he's your guy or not. It makes ALL the sense in the world to not play him. And it makes none to play him, especially with the new rookie wage scale essentially making Tebow paid like a #1 overall selection if he just hits the mid-tier escalators.

Popps
10-07-2011, 09:17 PM
1. Don't teams regularly re-sign players to new contracts pre and post-trade?

2. Wouldn't Tebow Not playing well enough simply alert the fans to the obvious... we're going to draft a QB in a QB-rich draft next year? (Of course, Tebow could play great and win over the fan base completely.)

Denver makes a playoff appearence and Tebow performs decent statistically any year up to 2014, his contract doubles

We're clearly not making the playoffs this year. If we do, that would mean that Tebow probably played more than "decently." Again, where's the risk?

You say by not playing him you can avoid financial risk, but that same risk can be avoided by playing him this year, and evaluating what you have before the first round of next year's draft.

That is, unless you believe that staff is evaluating him on an actual FOOTBALL basis, and has no intention of ever playing him, anyway... and he's ONLY trade bait, in which case this is all a moot point, including the conspiracy aspect.

This also all rests on this notion that if we DON'T play Tebow, somehow teams are going to be lining up to trade for him. The league consensus seems to be that he was drafted a bit early. Maybe he should have gone in the 2nd? 3rd? So, what is the supposed trade value of a QB who's sat on the bench for 3 years.... was projected to be a project in the first place and was over-drafted, anyway? What are we talking about here... a 3rd round pick? Do you think the staff would go through this much fan alienation for a mid-round draft pick... two years down the road?


Whole lot of math not adding up in this theory, when you can simply play him... see what you have... and STILL avoid a large contract if he flops. Oh, and then there's the option that if he DOES play well, we simply extend him, anyway.... with a more club-friendly contract.

Broncoman13
10-07-2011, 09:34 PM
1. Don't teams regularly re-sign players to new contracts pre and post-trade?

2. Wouldn't Tebow Not playing well enough simply alert the fans to the obvious... we're going to draft a QB in a QB-rich draft next year? (Of course, Tebow could play great and win over the fan base completely.)

Denver makes a playoff appearence and Tebow performs decent statistically any year up to 2014, his contract doubles

We're clearly not making the playoffs this year. If we do, that would mean that Tebow probably played more than "decently." Again, where's the risk?

You say by not playing him you can avoid financial risk, but that same risk can be avoided by playing him this year, and evaluating what you have before the first round of next year's draft.

That is, unless you believe that staff is evaluating him on an actual FOOTBALL basis, and has no intention of ever playing him, anyway... and he's ONLY trade bait, in which case this is all a moot point, including the conspiracy aspect.

This also all rests on this notion that if we DON'T play Tebow, somehow teams are going to be lining up to trade for him. The league consensus seems to be that he was drafted a bit early. Maybe he should have gone in the 2nd? 3rd? So, what is the supposed trade value of a QB who's sat on the bench for 3 years.... was projected to be a project in the first place and was over-drafted, anyway? What are we talking about here... a 3rd round pick? Do you think the staff would go through this much fan alienation for a mid-round draft pick... two years down the road?


Whole lot of math not adding up in this theory, when you can simply play him... see what you have... and STILL avoid a large contract if he flops. Oh, and then there's the option that if he DOES play well, we simply extend him, anyway.... with a more club-friendly contract.
All very good points... But I can tell you from conversations I have had with former players that are close to the organization... The Broncos front office did not anticipate how big the whole Tebow thing was or would become. Surprising the Broncos front office, plus the fact that Orton hasn't played well is really taking its toll on the organization. To the point of coaches and executives asking players not to comment on it other than to give the standard canned answer... Kyle is our QB and we support him.

Broncoman13
10-07-2011, 09:44 PM
All very good points... But I can tell you from conversations I have had with former players that are close to the organization... The Broncos front office did not anticipate how big the whole Tebow thing was or would become. Surprising the Broncos front office, plus the fact that Orton hasn't played well is really taking its toll on the organization. To the point of coaches and executives asking players not to comment on it other than to give the standard canned answer... Kyle is our QB and we support him.

I should add, I wouldn't buy a Tebow jersey if I were you... Not a Bronco one anyhow. The organization will not put the team through this again.

I asked the question about just playing Tebow and letting the fans see how unprepared he supposedly is. The answer was essentially that they would eventually play him this year, but either way he is not viewed as the teams future. There would be risk to the brand's image if Tebow played well and they still went a different direction. So they are kind of in a lose/lose situation now.

Tebow is one of my favorite players in the entire league. I love his attitude and his approach to life. I wish he would have been drafted to a more stable situation and I could be a distanced fan... Much like Larry Fitzgerald or Adrian Peterson. I don't think he will be a Bronco next year unless he is playing full time. Broncos won't put the team through this again.

Popps
10-07-2011, 09:47 PM
All very good points... But I can tell you from conversations I have had with former players that are close to the organization... The Broncos front office did not anticipate how big the whole Tebow thing was or would become. Surprising the Broncos front office, plus the fact that Orton hasn't played well is really taking its toll on the organization. To the point of coaches and executives asking players not to comment on it other than to give the standard canned answer... Kyle is our QB and we support him.

Fair enough, if you know people you know people... but I have an extremely difficult time believing that the staff would have had that hard of a time figuring out that the fans wanted to see Tebow play. That was obvious last year. There's no more hyped non-starter in football. I don't live in Denver, but I can imagine the sports-talk lines were jammed with calls about the guy.
I mean, he got in a couple of home games and fans were wildly enthusiastic.

Orton is perceived as a stop-gap starter, and in some senses this is true. I think he might be judged a bit harshly by some Broncos fans who tend to polarize opinions about QBs, but I think we can all agree that Kyle isn't going to drag any team to a playoff berth on his own.

I don't know, man... the guy had an ESPN special. He sold more jerseys than any other Broncos player in the offseason.

I mean, ask your contact how the team could have possibly been so blind to the notion that this was a popular player. Frankly, I just can't really get with that line of reasoning.

Popps
10-07-2011, 09:50 PM
The answer was essentially that they would eventually play him this year, but either way he is not viewed as the teams future. There would be risk to the brand's image if Tebow played well and they still went a different direction. So they are kind of in a lose/lose situation now. .

Now this, I can somewhat buy. But, I still think if the kid goes out and tears it up and brings the fans in droves... the club keeps him in the mix, regardlessof any preconceived notion Elway and Co. may have had.

If he goes out there and runs around and looks like a running college QB who played in a spread-type QB-friendly offense, then yea... I expect they'll look elsewhere.

(Disclaimer: I like Tebow so you nut-jobs just relax.)

broncocalijohn
10-07-2011, 10:12 PM
I should add, I wouldn't buy a Tebow jersey if I were you... Not a Bronco one anyhow. The organization will not put the team through this again.

I asked the question about just playing Tebow and letting the fans see how unprepared he supposedly is. The answer was essentially that they would eventually play him this year, but either way he is not viewed as the teams future. There would be risk to the brand's image if Tebow played well and they still went a different direction. So they are kind of in a lose/lose situation now.

Tebow is one of my favorite players in the entire league. I love his attitude and his approach to life. I wish he would have been drafted to a more stable situation and I could be a distanced fan... Much like Larry Fitzgerald or Adrian Peterson. I don't think he will be a Bronco next year unless he is playing full time. Broncos won't put the team through this again.

I have to somewhat agree with Popps. You don't add anything to his escalators by playing him now. If he does well and wins games, the FO has their QBOTF and $11 million for actual playing time wouldn't be a lose but a gain. If he is the QBOTF, we save one position in next year's draft and go defense (which is much cheaper than paying a Top 5/10 QB). Winning might equal playoffs which gives more revenue to the franchise. I am sure they make up that $11 million in many ways. It makes too much sense and unless the FO is afraid they can't get Luck or anyone else if Tebow performs, I can't see them holding him back. Play him and if he does well but not to the FO liking, you are going to get a good player or draft pick for Tebow. Sorry, but I can't quite grasp at the conspiracy theory.

Broncoman13
10-07-2011, 10:12 PM
Fair enough, if you know people you know people... but I have an extremely difficult time believing that the staff would have had that hard of a time figuring out that the fans wanted to see Tebow play. That was obvious last year. There's no more hyped non-starter in football. I don't live in Denver, but I can imagine the sports-talk lines were jammed with calls about the guy.
I mean, he got in a couple of home games and fans were wildly enthusiastic.

Orton is perceived as a stop-gap starter, and in some senses this is true. I think he might be judged a bit harshly by some Broncos fans who tend to polarize opinions about QBs, but I think we can all agree that Kyle isn't going to drag any team to a playoff berth on his own.

I don't know, man... the guy had an ESPN special. He sold more jerseys than any other Broncos player in the offseason.

I mean, ask your contact how the team could have possibly been so blind to the notion that this was a popular player. Frankly, I just can't really get with that line of reasoning.

It sounded like the over-the-top stuff is what surprised them. The booing early on. The talk of and the actually posting a billboard, the Tebow bumper stickers, the players reactions... All of that is beyond what they were expecting. I think its to the point now that the team has to address it weekly. Fox really had no idea how big the Tebow love was. I can understand that, we really don't have any idea how much love Cam newton is getting in North carolina, no reason for Fox to know how it was around here last year. I think he came in thinking that he would just play who he thought was best at running the plays, the way they run them in practice. On script, Orton is hands down the better QB. When a play goes off schedule, which is around a third of the time, Orton tanks. So you have a QB that can play better in the system (unsure of how much better) vs a player that can give you some big plays during the other 33% of the time.

I can remember McD saying early on that fans should just trust him. Coaches and TO personnel have some huge egos. This is going to blow up pretty soon. Players will only keep quiet for so long. The more boos and the more we lose, the more the pressure to play TT. And the fans will support it just as the players will when that time comes... Saying that it was apparent that a change was needed.

Oh, one other Tidbit, the Broncos were apparently not impressed by Tebow off-season activities. There may be a bit of spite in all of this. Tebow had a busy off-season with personal stuff and showed up to camp really sloppy with his throwing and mechanics, that did not sit well with the team apparently.

Broncoman13
10-07-2011, 10:17 PM
I have to somewhat agree with Popps. You don't add anything to his escalators by playing him now. If he does well and wins games, the FO has their QBOTF and $11 million for actual playing time wouldn't be a lose but a gain. If he is the QBOTF, we save one position in next year's draft and go defense (which is much cheaper than paying a Top 5/10 QB). Winning might equal playoffs which gives more revenue to the franchise. I am sure they make up that $11 million in many ways. It makes too much sense and unless the FO is afraid they can't get Luck or anyone else if Tebow performs, I can't see them holding him back. Play him and if he does well but not to the FO liking, you are going to get a good player or draft pick for Tebow. Sorry, but I can't quite grasp at the conspiracy theory.

Not so much conspiracy theory, more like fear from fan retribution. Fan support seems to be potty important to Denver's brass. They do not want fans booing or walking out on them. They were lucky the last two games were away from home. Now they comeback for a difficult game. They need to win at all cost, just to buy them some time.

KipCorrington25
10-07-2011, 10:18 PM
All very good points... But I can tell you from conversations I have had with former players that are close to the organization... The Broncos front office did not anticipate how big the whole Tebow thing was or would become. Surprising the Broncos front office, plus the fact that Orton hasn't played well is really taking its toll on the organization. To the point of coaches and executives asking players not to comment on it other than to give the standard canned answer... Kyle is our QB and we support him.

Good, glad to hear some of these losers in the organization are waking up... they have been on cruise control for a decade now, maybe it's time to shake things up a bit... Orton is worthless as tits on a boar why is it so obvious to the idiot fans but they can't see it? These guys are dinosaurs and will be gone quickly if they don't wake up. :twokisses

Popps
10-07-2011, 10:27 PM
I can remember McD saying early on that fans should just trust him. Coaches and TO personnel have some huge egos. This is going to blow up pretty soon. Players will only keep quiet for so long. The more boos and the more we lose, the more the pressure to play TT. And the fans will support it just as the players will when that time comes... Saying that it was apparent that a change was needed.


Do you mean you think the players have something specifically to say, or that they will eventually just chirp more, with varying opinions?



Oh, one other Tidbit, the Broncos were apparently not impressed by Tebow off-season activities. There may be a bit of spite in all of this. Tebow had a busy off-season with personal stuff and showed up to camp really sloppy with his throwing and mechanics, that did not sit well with the team apparently.

That wouldn't surprise me. That's the same thing we heard from a lot of the media, and actually a lot of camp-dwellers reported the same thing, that Tebow just didn't look very good.

I don't have a strong leaning on the QB thing. I see some of both sides. But, I will say... I don't know why a coach should be expected to start a QB who by all reports, did not come into camp looking ready to lead the team... when another did. Now, 4 games into the season... Orton has had some struggles and you can start talking about him having to improve his game to keep his gig, no question. But, this notion that Fox should have ignored training camp and his (and his staff's) own eyes and started Tebow because he was a "gamer" in college is a little silly. What happens going forward should be evaluated weekly, and certainly a change should be considered if the factors warrant it.

Broncoman13
10-07-2011, 10:36 PM
Do you mean you think the players have something specifically to say, or that they will eventually just chirp more, with varying opinions?

I think the more KO misses long balls with wide open receivers the more they will question whether he is the best chance. When Orton starts missing plays that are on schedule the support in the lockerrom will diminsh. Look at Santonio Holmes here recently.

That wouldn't surprise me. That's the same thing we heard from a lot of the media, and actually a lot of camp-dwellers reported the same thing, that Tebow just didn't look very good.

I don't have a strong leaning on the QB thing. I see some of both sides. But, I will say... I don't know why a coach should be expected to start a QB who by all reports, did not come into camp looking ready to lead the team... when another did. Now, 4 games into the season... Orton has had some struggles and you can start talking about him having to improve his game to keep his gig, no question. But, this notion that Fox should have ignored training camp and his (and his staff's) own eyes and started Tebow because he was a "gamer" in college is a little silly. What happens going forward should be evaluated weekly, and certainly a change should be considered if the factors warrant it.

I think he did what his eyes told him to do... But now that it is not working out, he is going to have more and more doubts.

NUB
10-07-2011, 10:37 PM
Orton should not be seen as your usual entrenched starter, though. He's played bad enough to deserve being benched and if Denver loses against San Diego there is little reason to keep Tebow on the bench any longer. As much as "Tebow" is being shouted, I really think it has to do with Orton. Fans just do not want to see the same thing over and over from him, which is losing, primarily, and looking extremely uninspired while doing so.

I disagree with the "win/win" by not playing Tebow. It could actually prove to be a complete and total disaster if we continue on with Orton. Imagine finishing 5-11 or 6-10 with Orton or better. That's enough to not be in the playoffs, and enough to push Denver away from the QB-bonanza coming up unless they do a "scorched earth" trade and sell everything to move up. Meanwhile, Orton leaves town...

MacGruder
10-08-2011, 12:18 AM
Oh, one other Tidbit, the Broncos were apparently not impressed by Tebow off-season activities. There may be a bit of spite in all of this. Tebow had a busy off-season with personal stuff and showed up to camp really sloppy with his throwing and mechanics, that did not sit well with the team apparently.

I really hope this is NOT the case because the Panthers clearly had a plan they set up for Cam to prepare him for the season. There is a big article about it on Sports Illustrated.

From what I know of Tebow it sounds like Tebow may have worked TOO hard making changes they may have told him to make which as Joe Montana said he shouldn't have ever been told to do because they ruin a QBs instincts.

If they are putting out info that Tebow isn't working hard enough or doing what they ask I really suspect them of trying to submarine him and the fans sentiments toward him. This was my initial reaction when Elway came out immediately and said Tebow wasn't a good QB...

The Panthers are putting out info that Cam is this incredibly driven worker and the Broncos are putting out the complete opposite with Tebow.. do you know how bizarre this is? Cam got his work ethic from Tebow.. Tebow's work ethic is unquestioned and legendary. If he isn't working as necessary then I have to assume the organization isn't showing him what he needs to do to be successful. There is no excuse for that when you have a supposed great QB in Elway and you have a guy who will be do anything to be a great QB.

One thing I do get a sense of though is that the players, at least on offense.. may support Orton more than Tebow. I sense some loyalty to Kyle there and possibly some jealousy. I think many offensive players do not want to adapt to Tebow's style either. They are likely more concerned with numbers and money. It seemed the Broncos receivers were working more with Orton than Tebow in the off season.

Something I also find odd is that Tebow's biggest supporter on offense last season - Jabbar Gaffney - was let go right before Orton decided not to sign somewhere else after demanding a trade. But I am not familiar with the financial situation there so maybe that isn't related.

What I wonder is if they were upset with Tebow doing so much publicity stuff this summer because they don't want to play him. So here you have Tebow getting the fans even more excited to play him and they never had intentions of playing him or building a system around him like Carolina did with Cam.. which is just ludicrous to me. Cam looks like the real deal but is fool's gold to me.. a lot like Orton.

Cito Pelon
10-08-2011, 12:29 AM
It doesnt. 2/3 first 3 seasons 55% of snaps, + incentives = contract doubles.

Klis forgot the word AND in his first article. Had he put that in, would have saved alot of time.

/thread

Correct. Klis should have had an "AND" or a "PLUS" in the article, so it was poor reporting. Tebow has to make the incentives (ProBowl, MVP) PLUS the playing time.

This contract thing to explain Tebow's lack of playing time is a plausible theory, but not a probable theory. I guess only time will tell why Tebow isn't getting playing time so far.

OrangeSe7en
10-08-2011, 07:37 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19059551

That is the new article.

I like how Klis thinks he's putting this to bed by getting a self-serving quote from the parties involved.

Sorry but Denver deserves better than Klis.

vonqkilla
10-08-2011, 09:23 AM
I like how Klis thinks he's putting this to bed by getting a self-serving quote from the parties involved.

Sorry but Denver deserves better than Klis.

Not sure why he moved to football, in his radio shows, he consistently says ”ask leggy”, ” thats a question for someone who knows football better than me”

His knowledge and reporting are subpar.

Popps
10-08-2011, 04:09 PM
I like how Klis thinks he's putting this to bed by getting a self-serving quote from the parties involved.

Sorry but Denver deserves better than Klis.

In fairness, he also made an attempt to clear up the contract situation... which pretty much puts to bed the notion that any of this is purely contract-motivated.

He just didn't be out Orton for the gig. Plain and simple.

He'll play at some point this season, though. Just a matter of time. Even if Orton starts playing lights-out football... he's had trouble playing a whole season. So, one way or another... Tebow will see the field.

Simple Jake
10-08-2011, 04:19 PM
Wilhite is out due to sickness? I think he's actually getting treated for injuries related to getting burned all day long against the Pack.

Vaughn should be out also if that's the case

OrangeSe7en
10-08-2011, 05:32 PM
In fairness, he also made an attempt to clear up the contract situation... which pretty much puts to bed the notion that any of this is purely contract-motivated.

He just didn't be out Orton for the gig. Plain and simple.

He'll play at some point this season, though. Just a matter of time. Even if Orton starts playing lights-out football... he's had trouble playing a whole season. So, one way or another... Tebow will see the field.

Except Im not sure that he's done that here. He really needs to have a neutral party lay out his contract and clarify it's stipulations this year and in coming years. I cant remember the analysis that was done verbatim but Im not sure whether some of the future bonus money isnt somehow tied to his playing time this year.

And you simply cant take Klis at his word or look at things as though theyre as simple as he makes them out to be. Id want someone besides Klis or Xanders to go into more detail about his contract.

Klis isn't really one who can be trusted on this.