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View Full Version : Long term plan: What is it?


Kaylore
10-03-2011, 10:03 AM
Let this thread be about two things: What EFX is trying to do and what you think they should do.

Personally, I suppose they do not think Tebow can play and want to draft another QB. That or Fox things he'll lose the locker room if he doesn't let Orton start. Either of these don't really show any signs toward the long term goals of the franchise. Orton isn't taking this team anywhere, and especially if he leaves next season, what is the point of continuing on?

Is it possible they know Orton will lead them to Luck?

rbackfactory80
10-03-2011, 10:07 AM
It has to be. They just can't be as stupid as the decisions they are making.

oubronco
10-03-2011, 10:09 AM
Suck for Luck in full swing

Archer81
10-03-2011, 10:10 AM
Plan? What plan?


:Broncos:

bronco militia
10-03-2011, 10:11 AM
there hasn't been a plan since the day Shanny was fired.

Tombstone RJ
10-03-2011, 10:13 AM
Let this thread be about two things: What EFX is trying to do and what you think they should do.

Personally, I suppose they do not think Tebow can play and want to draft another QB. That or Fox things he'll lose the locker room if he doesn't let Orton start. Either of these don't really show any signs toward the long term goals of the franchise. Orton isn't taking this team anywhere, and especially if he leaves next season, what is the point of continuing on?

Is it possible they know Orton will lead them to Luck?

Fox has to save face with the team and he is forced to play the vet--Orton--because he gives the team the best chance to win running the style of offense Fox likes to run.

Once the Broncos are mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs there's no reason to continue with Orton. At this time I think Tebow will be played. Tebow is the only QB on the roster with a long term contract.

jhns
10-03-2011, 10:14 AM
there hasn't been a plan since the day Shanny was fired.

This. It is what happens when you hire incompetent coaches.

Fox has a history of **** QB play. I would bet good money that he actually wants Orton to be his QBOTF. Hopefully Elway stops that from happening.

elsid13
10-03-2011, 10:15 AM
I think the plan was to see what they actually had on this team and use this year as period to see what worth saving and what needed to be replaced. I also think they thought that couple of veterans would allow them to be competitive if they could get production out of Doom, Champ, DJ and M. Thomas. That hasn't worked.

gyldenlove
10-03-2011, 10:20 AM
My guess is that the plan at the beginning of the season was to see how far this team could go with the talent they have and then evaluate from there what additions would be necesary, it is a very conservative approach which I think fits well with Fox and Elway. I really have no idea where Xanders fits in, he was a bean counter for Shanahan and according to him he was just a rubberstamp for Mcdaniels, but wether or not that is true is not known to me.

I think we have seen in the first 4 that we are something like a 5-11 team, not very good but competitive when we play other bad or mediocre teams. In that light I think the only option is to settle the future of the QB position ASAP. It is a given that Orton has not done enough this year to warrant a new contract. Quinn, despite showing some promise early in practice, is not a gamer and fell completely apart in the preseason, he may be offered a backup contract but I doubt he will take it unless nothing else comes along. Tebow has to be given a shot, if for not other reason to be certain that he is not the future of this team, so we can walk away from his contract. If Tebow fails to improve the team after the bye week we should draft QB in round 1, with the new contract structure it will be cheap comparably and so the risk will be much less, the talent level also seems very attractive at that position in the draft.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-03-2011, 10:21 AM
The plan is building through the draft. I don't think Fox sees Orton as the QBOTF, but he doesn't see Tebow as that either. The QB of this team's next 10 years is not on the roster right now.

I think building through the draft is the way to do it. Shanahan got in some bad spots bringing in questionable players with big price tags, and I think EFX knows that sort of thing can't continue.

The plan is short term pain, long term benefit. In our first draft with this FO, we've gotten some really solid pieces. Love Von Miller. Love Moore. But we weren't going to compete this year anyway; why bring in short term solutions for what really is a long-term build job?

Kid A
10-03-2011, 10:23 AM
Let this thread be about two things: What EFX is trying to do and what you think they should do.

Personally, I suppose they do not think Tebow can play and want to draft another QB. That or Fox things he'll lose the locker room if he doesn't let Orton start. Either of these don't really show any signs toward the long term goals of the franchise. Orton isn't taking this team anywhere, and especially if he leaves next season, what is the point of continuing on?

Is it possible they know Orton will lead them to Luck?

I think it's just those two lines combined. They don't want either starting next year, so they might as well go with the experienced guy who the locker room wants.

A) Mediocre veteran with locker room support or B) young QB with rough mechanics. I think in terms of wins this year, A gives you 1 or 2 more this year. Maybe, maybe not. Either way it's close.

And, from the EFX view, there's no point taking on the risks of starting a virtual rookie (locker room division, more mistakes, not as likely to fully involve all the offensive players) if you plan to bring in another rookie next season. Which it seems they do.

Messy and frustrating as fans, but it seems obvious they see QB as being in a holding pattern this season while they make changes on defense and in the running game. Next year they will take on the risk/reward proposition of playing a young QB.

frerottenextelway
10-03-2011, 10:28 AM
The lockerroom seemed to rally behind Tebow last year. We went 1-2, but the guys played hard, never gave up in any of those games. I don't buy that for a reason at all.

DrFate
10-03-2011, 10:29 AM
The plan is continue treating the fanbase like brain-dead drones with open wallets. (that's my guess, anyway)

Expect a continuation of pressers and tweets that say 'You didn't see what you thought you saw, we are actually really good!!! Keep buying tickets!!'

cabronco
10-03-2011, 10:39 AM
It sure looks like EFX from the outside is playing the SFL card. What the FO is trying to sell us, that Kyle gives us the best chance to win BS, which is why they want to keep him on the field. Alright already that experiment has failed. We are just spinning our wheels keeping Orton in there. If Tebow is not our future , we need to get as much value as we can in a trade, so why not play him? Are they afraid he may rally the team and win some games, ruining the chances for the SFL card. Kind of a twisted way of running the football team, but thats what I see.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-03-2011, 10:40 AM
It sure looks like EFX from the outside is playing the SFL card. What the FO is trying to sell us, that Kyle gives us the best chance to win BS, which is why they want to keep him on the field. Alright already that experiment has failed. We are just spinning our wheels keeping Orton in there. If Tebow is not our future , we need to get as much value as we can in a trade, so why not play him? Are they afraid he may rally the team and win some games, ruining the chances for the SFL card. Kind of a twisted way of running the football team, but thats what I see.

Or are they afraid Tim really is going to look like total dog****, completely obliterating his value?

Lolad
10-03-2011, 10:41 AM
This is what fox said: "We need our starting quarterback to get experience for us to improve. That's the idea behind that. You know he needs to get better in our system," Fox said. "I know he gets judged on the past couple of years, but we're trying to get him better in our system and use that experience to get better."

I will bring this back up when they do it. EFX will sign Orton to a new 3 year deal after this season. They will NOT have to overpay because his #'s will be terrible. Like Fox just said, this system is "new" to Orton they will give him another year to build on this one.

BULL**** its a new system... We are just running the ball with a purpose this year then previous. That's why I take from that comment

DrFate
10-03-2011, 10:42 AM
Or are they afraid Tim really is going to look like total dog****, completely obliterating his value?

What value is that again?

Steve Prefontaine
10-03-2011, 10:44 AM
Or are they afraid Tim really is going to look like total dog****, completely obliterating his value?

Good point. Right now he could probably get some solid value.

Wrong again.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-03-2011, 10:45 AM
What value is that again?

Did you read the post I quoted? It said, "If Tebow is not our future, we need to get as much value for him IN A TRADE."

So. Trade value.

They're called "sentences." read from left to right, top to bottom. Take Tylenol for any headaches. Midol for any cramps.

oubronco
10-03-2011, 10:46 AM
Or are they afraid Tim really is going to look like total dog****, completely obliterating his value?.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-03-2011, 10:46 AM
Good point. Right now he could probably get some solid value.

Wrong again.

You don't think Miami would trade something to get some asses in the seats right now? He's worth more to some teams as an unknown quantity.

NFLBRONCO
10-03-2011, 10:46 AM
Denver brought in a D minded coach to fix D that can't be fixed overnight. Now people complain about O when other Fox O's have hardly lit the world on fire. It is what it is why are soo many fans expecting instant success on a very awful talented team across the board. Why do we need to know long term plan it's less then a yr with this FO. Let's see a few season's before we evaluate this crew.

I look at the Broncos like I do with CU

First Step

We need to add talent across the board draft well for a few season's. Progress will not happen until we do this.

Drafting Luck is the only way this process speeds up any plan FO might have longterm.

Tombstone RJ
10-03-2011, 10:47 AM
Or are they afraid Tim really is going to look like total dog****, completely obliterating his value?

He has no trade value as it is. Trading Tebow now is as much of a gamble as drafting him in the first round. The reality of the situation is no one knows if he can be a ligit QB in this league or if he's a wasted pick. If the Broncos trade him without giving him a shot and he goes on to another team and lights up the scoreboard the Broncos front office will look like utter failures.

Rascal
10-03-2011, 10:59 AM
What did people expect this year? They are playing like a slightly improved version of last year. This isn't going to get better over night.

Fedaykin
10-03-2011, 11:00 AM
I've been assuming the long term plan is to improve/evaluate the whole team for the long term. Tebow's style is not what they want going forward, so they are sticking with Orton.

Tebow would be more interesting and maybe eek out a couple extra wins, but he's not going to help the rest of the team develop as an NFL calibre (read: pass heavy) offense as much as Orton will.

I hate it -- unless it actually pans out in 1-3 years

Tombstone RJ
10-03-2011, 11:02 AM
I've been assuming the long term plan is to improve/evaluate the whole team for the long term. Tebow's style is not what they want going forward, so they are sticking with Orton.

Tebow would be more interesting and maybe eek out a couple extra wins, but he's not going to help the rest of the team develop as an NFL calibre (read: pass heavy) offense as much as Orton will.

I hate it -- unless it actually pans out in 1-3 years

One problem with your opinion. Fox does not run a pass heavy offense. He does run a pro style offense but it's based on a successful running game.

Steve Prefontaine
10-03-2011, 11:03 AM
You don't think Miami would trade something to get some asses in the seats right now? He's worth more to some teams as an unknown quantity.

No.

Steve Prefontaine
10-03-2011, 11:04 AM
What did people expect this year? They are playing like a slightly improved version of last year. This isn't going to get better over night.

Orton to be gone.

Fedaykin
10-03-2011, 11:07 AM
One problem with your opinion. Fox does not run a pass heavy offense. He does run a pro style offense but it's based on a successful running game.

Because he's done it in the past doesn't mean he (or Elway) aren't going for the more pass heavy option. Their whole strategy in the GB game was to go vertical.

Personally I prefer a bruising running game, but as we've been shown on multiple occasions over the last decade -- that's not how to win in the NFL right now.

Rascal
10-03-2011, 11:08 AM
Orton to be gone.

Then you weren't paying attention.

cabronco
10-03-2011, 11:10 AM
He has no trade value as it is. Trading Tebow now is as much of a gamble as drafting him in the first round. The reality of the situation is no one knows if he can be a ligit QB in this league or if he's a wasted pick. If the Broncos trade him without giving him a shot and he goes on to another team and lights up the scoreboard the Broncos front office will look like utter failures.


That is true. What we saw in Tebow in a limited role last year, in just a red zone package itself, to me would be very valuable to most other teams. So there's value right there for him in itself. Why we dont utilize his skills in the RZ this year at least, when we have to settle for more 3's instead of TD's is baffling to most fans and insulting our intelligence that #8 gives us the best cance to win.

TheDave
10-03-2011, 11:11 AM
I think they realized the only way tebow works is if design an entire offense around him... I don't think they have the guts to go that far off the reservation.

Gort
10-03-2011, 11:17 AM
Let this thread be about two things: What EFX is trying to do and what you think they should do.

Personally, I suppose they do not think Tebow can play and want to draft another QB. That or Fox things he'll lose the locker room if he doesn't let Orton start. Either of these don't really show any signs toward the long term goals of the franchise. Orton isn't taking this team anywhere, and especially if he leaves next season, what is the point of continuing on?

Is it possible they know Orton will lead them to Luck?

honestly, throwing the season while appearing not to throw the season is a bit too Machiavellian for this crowd. i think Fox and Elway are just following conventional wisdom. Orton is the square peg that fits their offensive scheme, so that's who they are going with. Tebow is a round peg. they don't know what to do with a round peg, so they just leave him on the bench. it will only be by accident that we end up drafting Luck. if 1-15 is what it will take to get Luck, we'll end up 2-14 instead.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-03-2011, 11:17 AM
That is true. What we saw in Tebow in a limited role last year, in just a red zone package itself, to me would be very valuable to most other teams. So there's value right there for him in itself. Why we dont utilize his skills in the RZ this year at least, when we have to settle for more 3's instead of TD's is baffling to most fans and insulting our intelligence that #8 gives us the best cance to win.

I actually do agree here. I don't think Tim is going to be a successful pro quarterback, but I do think he'd make an incredible red zone and short yardage weapon that we're currently underutilizing.

Eldorado
10-03-2011, 11:17 AM
Then you weren't paying attention.

What the **** are you talking about? Elway had the deal signed and done but Orton wouldn't take Miami's deal.

peacepipe
10-03-2011, 11:20 AM
I think they realized the only way tebow works is if design an entire offense around him... I don't think they have the guts to go that far off the reservation.yeah,we all see how it's working out for the eagles.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 11:20 AM
The goal is to make money. Plain and simple.

They keep Tebow dangling around the franchise like a "Come and see" albatross and get all the ticket sales they can... they even roped the opener prime time game based off of Tim Tebow and much to ESPN's chagrin, played Orton instead.

They're going to milk Tebow for all he's worth.

While staying 25 million under the cap until the floor actually kicks in.

I have no doubts that they're TRYING to win games... I just think the FO is severely under qualified and it's showing. We got raped and abused in every interaction with other teams this off-season. We completely whiffed on SIGNIFICANT opportunties to upgrade the football team.

...but that's okay because they still make money by dangling that Tim Tebow carrot.

Pseudofool
10-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Honestly, I think the longterm plan changes week-to-week.

TheDave
10-03-2011, 11:28 AM
yeah,we all see how it's working out for the eagles.


Vick is a classical drop back QB compared to tebow. IMO for Tebow to work you have to be willing to sacrifice that FB Body of his. You spread everyone out and make the defence worry about every blade of grass on the field including a healthy dose of the QB option.

Line it up and see where it goes.

TonyR
10-03-2011, 11:30 AM
yeah,we all see how it's working out for the eagles.

You beat me to it. They went all in with a speed/quick strike offense built around Vick and spent a boatload on FA's this offseason. Results so far not so good although their defense is probably their bigger problem.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 11:30 AM
The goal is to make money. Plain and simple.

They keep Tebow dangling around the franchise like a "Come and see" albatross and get all the ticket sales they can... they even roped the opener prime time game based off of Tim Tebow and much to ESPN's chagrin, played Orton instead.

They're going to milk Tebow for all he's worth.

While staying 25 million under the cap until the floor actually kicks in.

I have no doubts that they're TRYING to win games... I just think the FO is severely under qualified and it's showing. We got raped and abused in every interaction with other teams this off-season. We completely whiffed on SIGNIFICANT opportunties to upgrade the football team.

...but that's okay because they still make money by dangling that Tim Tebow carrot.

And what they SHOULD be doing:

I spent all off-season screaming for Joseph and Cofield specifically. The two are OWNING right now. Joseph has as many interceptions as our entire team does. Cofield has been crushing pockets and rerouting runs AND has FOUR times as many batted passes as the ENTIRE BRONCOS DL.

(That's right fellas... Robert Ayers is the ONLY defensive lineman that has managed to bat down a ****ing pass on 138 attempts. Are you kidding me?)

Moving forward long term:

Play Orton vs SD and let him get mauled... again.

Make the switch to Tebow in the bye so you can really start to evaluate him like you should've been doing all goddamn season. If he sucks, well clearly we're going to be within arms distance of Luck no matter, so we can make a move towards him, Barkley, Landry, etc. If he can play, fantastic! Now we can leverage OUR pick to another team that wants to give the farm for one of these QBs and we can potentially grab a guy like Burfict AND Kirkpatrick.

One thing I'd be doing during the switch... play close attention to the lockerroom. Anyone who isn't on board within a few weeks I'd ship straight the eff out of town. No more selfish losers. We've lost enough to have to stomach more of that.

Unfortunately we won't have such a lightning strikes opportunity in free agency this year (and maybe never again), but being aggressive for DEPTH at the very least if you don't want to shoot for top talent is just prudent... because the situation we're in now is the OPPOSITE of a rebuild... it's a self-destruct button.

yerner
10-03-2011, 11:31 AM
I'm starting to think Elway wants it to be bad enough he can start the last two games of the season.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 11:33 AM
You beat me to it. They went all in with a speed/quick strike offense built around Vick and spent a boatload on FA's this offseason. Results so far not so good although their defense is probably their bigger problem.

Such a flawed concept. "Spending doesn't equal winning!" ...well no ****, but it does when you buy the right guys.

How are the teams doing that grabbed the guys I wanted? Washington and Houston looking just fine and those 2 are BIG parts of that... oh and they were on the cheap too.

vonqkilla
10-03-2011, 11:38 AM
Rebuild. It starts at qb.

Eithers its Tim or not. The time to find out was week one, and hasnt changed.

Im sick to stomach, literally, sick from this bs.

Its not worth caring about. Scream at the walls, its pointless.

WolfpackGuy
10-03-2011, 11:44 AM
Who the hell knows?

At a minimum, they need to find out who is staying and who is going when the season is over, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

Pick Six
10-03-2011, 11:46 AM
Rebuild. It starts at qb.



No, it doesn't. Elway didn't win the ultimate prize until he got the other pieces of the puzzle...

yerner
10-03-2011, 11:47 AM
Rebuild. It starts at qb.

Eithers its Tim or not. The time to find out was week one, and hasnt changed.

Im sick to stomach, literally, sick from this bs.

Its not worth caring about. Scream at the walls, its pointless.

Lighten up, man. It's rich dudes playing with a ball.

TonyR
10-03-2011, 11:49 AM
Such a flawed concept. "Spending doesn't equal winning!" ...well no ****, but it does when you buy the right guys.

Oh I agree. But I have a hard time saying Asomugha, Jenkins, Babin, etc. weren't the "right guys". My point was more around the risk of building an offense around a player like Vick.

vonqkilla
10-03-2011, 11:49 AM
We need cbs bad. I was thinking zone blitz, we did it once, gave up like 14 yard comp. ARod was on pt, and our scheme was garbage.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 11:50 AM
Oh I agree. But I have a hard time saying Asomugha, Jenkins, Babin, etc. weren't the "right guys". My point was more around the risk of building an offense around a player like Vick.

Aso is the only "right guy" in the bunch.

vonqkilla
10-03-2011, 11:50 AM
Lighten up, man. It's rich dudes playing with a ball.

Maybe im just hungry, I ate a snickers though, still pissed at aborton.
Elway really messed with us fans 2 days before draft.
” we are gonna go with tim”

Its like a hot girl your dating, your all set to close, and you know shes down, and then it falls apart.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 11:51 AM
No, it doesn't. Elway didn't win the ultimate prize until he got the other pieces of the puzzle...

You're actually supporting his argument...

RunSilentRunDeep
10-03-2011, 11:52 AM
I think if you look at the expiration date of everyone's contract, the plan is pretty obvious and exactly what Elway said it would be: a three-year rebuild job with the draft being the primary source of new talent.

What Elway didn't say is what everyone here has figured out: Bowlen isn't broke but things are tight and he'll no longer shell out big dollars to outside free agents. So here's the plan:

1. Start Tebow in Week 9. This gives him a 24-game tryout through the end of the 2012 season to see if he's the man. If not, they get rid of him while saving $10M in incentives.

2. Let most everyone walk: Kyle Orton, Brandon Lloyd, Eddie Royal, Brady Quinn, Mario Haggan, Joe Mays, Matt Prater (love him, but never pay a kicker), Broderick Bunkley, Marcus Thomas, Daniel Fells and Wesley Woodyard could potentially earn enough money and playing time (some obviously have a better chance than others) with their next teams to contribute to a significant haul in compensatory picks in the 2013 draft.

I would hope they re-sign Bunkley and Woodyard if the prices are reasonable.

3. Extend Ryan Clady at the end of the year. His contract expires after the 2012 season, so lock him up while getting him slightly cheaper by paying him early. This will be the only big expenditure next offseason.

4. Let the kids grow. Denver has 5th-most inexperienced offensive line in the league, pups at receiver and tight end. They'll improve.

5. After 2012, start extending the young players that have earned it.

6. Draft really well (duh).

7. I needed a No. 7 since it's Elway's plan.

IMHO, If you take Dawkins, Goodman and Moreno (trade please) out of the mix, you can still see a pretty talented group to build around that's here for the rest of 2011, 2012 and 2013.

Signed through 2015

Elvis Dumervil
Chris Kuper

Signed through 2014

Champ Bailey
Von Miller
Demaryius Thomas
Tim Tebow
Rahim Moore
Orlando Franklin
Nate Irving
Quinton Carter
Julius Thomas
Mike Mohamed
Virgil Green

Signed through 2013

D.J. Williams
Andre' Goodman
Robert Ayers
Brian Dawkins
Knowshon Moreno
Willis McGahee
Zane Beadles
J.D. Walton
Eric Decker
Eric Olsen
Syd'Quan Thompson
Cassius Vaughn (restricted) FA

Signed through 2012

Ryan Clady

If you look at how the Packers (6-10 in 2008), Steelers, and now the Lions (2-14 in 09, 6-10 in '10) were built through the draft, it makes sense. Although I know that doesn't help those ready to jump off a bridge because the McDaniels' mess hasn't been cleaned up in the first month of a year that had no offseason.

24champ
10-03-2011, 11:53 AM
Long-term plan. What is it?

I don't know, and whatever it is, it probably won't work.

TonyR
10-03-2011, 11:53 AM
Aso is the only "right guy" in the bunch.

I haven't watched them nearly enough to assess their overall play but Babin leads the NFL with 7 sacks and Jenkins has 4.

Drek
10-03-2011, 11:55 AM
You beat me to it. They went all in with a speed/quick strike offense built around Vick and spent a boatload on FA's this offseason. Results so far not so good although their defense is probably their bigger problem.

Their offense has been great as long as Vick was healthy. Their problem was that during all their FA largesse they forgot to address a complete inability to stop the run and so have a bunch of young mid-round to late round draftees starting at LB and no run stuffing DTs to speak of.

vonqkilla
10-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Ronnie Brown, lmao

DBroncos4life
10-03-2011, 12:00 PM
We get more news time then winning teams. If its not broken why change it right Pat???

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 12:00 PM
I haven't watched them nearly enough to assess their overall play but Babin leads the NFL with 7 sacks and Jenkins has 4.

Haven't like all of Babins come against really bad OL?

I'm not watching Philly (every chance I get I avoid them now) either, but I wouldn't have targeted any of the guys they went after... aside from the DRC throw in.

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2011, 12:02 PM
Let this thread be about two things: What EFX is trying to do and what you think they should do.

Personally, I suppose they do not think Tebow can play and want to draft another QB. That or Fox things he'll lose the locker room if he doesn't let Orton start. Either of these don't really show any signs toward the long term goals of the franchise. Orton isn't taking this team anywhere, and especially if he leaves next season, what is the point of continuing on?

Is it possible they know Orton will lead them to Luck?

I think that Tebow is not "their" guy and want to draft a QB in the first round who is. I think they're worried that if they play Tebow, he might do well and the fanbase will get behind him, at which point, it will be hard to justify using a first round draft pick on a QB. So, theyve decided to not play Tebow to avoid the risk and hope that they will outlast the fanbase on this.

Either that, or it really is about Tebow's escalators and theyre waiting until Bowlen doesn't have to play Tebow the escalators.

In either case, this whole notion of transparency is dead.

WolfpackGuy
10-03-2011, 12:04 PM
Ronnie Brown, lmao

That turnover he had on the goalline yesterday might've been the worst I've ever seen.

Pick Six
10-03-2011, 12:05 PM
You're actually supporting his argument...

Ok. That was probably a bad analogy. A better analogy would be the 2000 Baltimore Ravens. The quarterback wasn't a world beater, but he had the talent around him (on both sides of the ball) to get the job done...

Rohirrim
10-03-2011, 12:08 PM
I think they realized the only way tebow works is if design an entire offense around him... I don't think they have the guts to go that far off the reservation.

Bingo! Hopefully, some NFL team talks Urban into a HC job and they'll trade us all their picks for Tebow. Like everybody always says, this is a copycat league. Who's the best? The teams with accurate pocket passers, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, etc. I think we already got a pretty strong signal regarding which way EFX are going to go. Who was their first pick? Von Miller. He'll do what he did in Carolina; Build a defense, build a running game, and try (like every other team in the league) to find a franchise QB.

TonyR
10-03-2011, 12:16 PM
they forgot to address a complete inability to stop the run and so have a bunch of young mid-round to late round draftees starting at LB and no run stuffing DTs to speak of.

Yes, their LB's and safties are terrible. I think worse than ours as a collective group.

TonyR
10-03-2011, 12:17 PM
That turnover he had on the goalline yesterday might've been the worst I've ever seen.

And sadly it followed a pretty good catch.

TonyR
10-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Bingo! Hopefully, some NFL team talks Urban into a HC job and they'll trade us all their picks for Tebow. Like everybody always says, this is a copycat league. Who's the best? The teams with accurate pocket passers, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, etc. I think we already got a pretty strong signal regarding which way EFX are going to go. Who was their first pick? Von Miller. He'll do what he did in Carolina; Build a defense, build a running game, and try (like every other team in the league) to find a franchise QB.

Yup. Good post. And add Drew Brees to that list.

elsid13
10-03-2011, 12:22 PM
Want the plan look at what the Falcons are doing with Ryan and the run game, that's the plan.

Tombstone RJ
10-03-2011, 12:26 PM
Want the plan look at what the Falcons are doing with Ryan and the run game, that's the plan.

Apparently the Panthers don't understand that plan...

MagicHef
10-03-2011, 12:34 PM
I see two possibilities:

1: Bowlen/Ellis want to save as much money as possible during the seasons without a salary floor. This means delaying Tebow's escalators until they are forced to pay a certain amount. In this scenario, Tebow won't play until game 9. I'm not sure if I believe this one anymore after Fox's absurd handling of Tebow in the GB game.

2: Luck will be a Bronco, no matter what it takes. They are playing Orton in order to evaluate the other offensive guys with a QB that has a playing style more similar to Luck.

Drek
10-03-2011, 12:47 PM
Yes, their LB's and safties are terrible. I think worse than ours as a collective group.

Hence why they're 1-3. They have lost to the Falcons (Turner had a big game), Giants (Bradshaw and Jacobs had big games together) and the 49ers (best game Gore has had in a while). All three teams controlled the clock by running up the gut for first downs.

The fact that their offense keeps them in games is a testament to how well the scheme works. They continue to deliver offensively. They just need a defense that can keep the other team from grinding out the clock and keeping the Eagles offense on the sidelines.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
10-03-2011, 01:15 PM
Great questions Kaylore.

In regards to what EFX are planning long term, I'm not coming up with much that makes logical sense. One has to assume they don't want to bet their professional careers on Tebow, while at the same time, they appear scared that he might play well enough if given the chance to make him impossible to trade (fan support), thus forcing him upon them. Personally, I believe his contract and the new rookie wage scale further emboldens EFX to follow that path. Other than that, I think the plan is to just stay afloat while the team acquires young talent in the draft. I think Bowlen's financial issues will prevent us from having any type of "quick fix" on the free agent front.



It's also quite possible John Elway is a genius and this is all part of his master plan. Hire an old, out-dated coach in John Fox that needs a running game and defense to come close to winning, whom also has an odd affinity for untalented veterans. Knowing we have neither a run game nor a defense, along with an untalented veteran at QB, that hire almost insures a chance to get his BFF Andrew Luck. And maybe that's all it is. Get Luck, and go from there. Elway's been talking up his refusal to sign with Indy in offseason interviews, about how he had the leverage and how it has worked out well for him. We know he and Luck are close. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Luck pulls the same stunt to get to Denver. And Lord knows Elway would trade the farm for him.

This makes sense to me because Fox is both arrogant and stubborn enough to believe nobody would hire him to fail. And lets be honest, he does have some value in building up a defense, so he is theoretically able to help the team over the long haul even if he's only here a year or two. Plus, how can ANYBODY advocate keeping Brian Xanders around unless the goal is to *not* win. Meanwhile, Elway gets to act like he is defering to their experience and wisdom (or lack thereof), while he escapes the public backlash.


So, yeah, long story short, Suck for Luck. Keep Tebow tradeable by making sure his contract escalators are in no danger of vesting, so he'll be more appealable to teams. Let him build some value the last 5 or 6 games of this season, and if no takers, start him next year while Luck develops. He just needs to be gone or benched before 70% snaps in 2013 to avoid any significant financial risk.



As for what I would do. I'd probably do the same thing with Tebow. It makes a ton of financial sense. I would not have hired John Fox though, and would not Suck for Luck. After Week 11 or so of this year, I'd just go with Tebow until 2013 and judge him at that time. Meanwhile, just build through the draft and do what the budget allows, though I'd prioritize DT. If Jon Gruden ever wanted to coach again, I'd try and get him. I think he could do wonders for Tebow's development. I'd also move Franklin to LG, make Beadles a super reserve, bench Walton, obtain a RT and OC. Find a legitimate 3 tech and FB, and go heavy on CBs.

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Great questions Kaylore.

In regards to what EFX are planning long term, I'm not coming up with much that makes logical sense. One has to assume they don't want to bet their professional careers on Tebow, while at the same time, they appear scared that he might play well enough if given the chance to make him impossible to trade (fan support), thus forcing him upon them. Personally, I believe his contract and the new rookie wage scale further emboldens EFX to follow that path. Other than that, I think the plan is to just stay afloat while the team acquires young talent in the draft. I think Bowlen's financial issues will prevent us from having any type of "quick fix" on the free agent front.



It's also quite possible John Elway is a genius and this is all part of his master plan. Hire an old, out-dated coach in John Fox that needs a running game and defense to come close to winning, whom also has an odd affinity for untalented veterans. Knowing we have neither a run game nor a defense, along with an untalented veteran at QB, that hire almost insures a chance to get his BFF Andrew Luck. And maybe that's all it is. Get Luck, and go from there. Elway's been talking up his refusal to sign with Indy in offseason interviews, about how he had the leverage and how it has worked out well for him. We know he and Luck are close. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Luck pulls the same stunt to get to Denver. And Lord knows Elway would trade the farm for him.

This makes sense to me because Fox is both arrogant and stubborn enough to believe nobody would hire him to fail. And lets be honest, he does have some value in building up a defense, so he is theoretically able to help the team over the long haul even if he's only here a year or two. Plus, how can ANYBODY advocate keeping Brian Xanders around unless the goal is to *not* win. Meanwhile, Elway gets to act like he is defering to their experience and wisdom (or lack thereof), while he escapes the public backlash.


So, yeah, long story short, Suck for Luck. Keep Tebow tradeable by making sure his contract escalators are in no danger of vesting, so he'll be more appealable to teams. Let him build some value the last 5 or 6 games of this season, and if no takers, start him next year while Luck develops. He just needs to be gone or benched before 70% snaps in 2013 to avoid any significant financial risk.



As for what I would do. I'd probably do the same thing with Tebow. It makes a ton of financial sense. I would not have hired John Fox though, and would not Suck for Luck. After Week 11 or so of this year, I'd just go with Tebow until 2013 and judge him at that time. Meanwhile, just build through the draft and do what the budget allows, though I'd prioritize DT. If Jon Gruden ever wanted to coach again, I'd try and get him. I think he could do wonders for Tebow's development. I'd also move Franklin to LG, make Beadles a super reserve, bench Walton, obtain a RT and OC. Find a legitimate 3 tech and FB, and go heavy on CBs.

I said something similar in this thread. I said I think they're worried Tebow will do well and make it hard to trade him from a PR standpoint and that this is something they'd be worried about. But I have a hard time reconciling this with the idea that the Broncos were willing to trade Orton to Miami possibly and go with Tebow. Im not even sure how true this is and what was involved with it so its hard to say it completely shoots down this notion of being worried Tebow would do well. But assuming it's true, it makes the escalators issue the bigger factor. Bowlen, in principle, probably doesnt want to pay a QB 10 million to sit on the bench along with Tebow's escalators. It can be hard to pin down exactly but when you have varying agendas, things can easily become confusing. The various manuevering is can be coming from different people for different reasons and therefore, it can be conflicting and/or hard to read.

orinjkrush
10-03-2011, 01:45 PM
I think that Tebow is not "their" guy and want to draft a QB in the first round who is. I think they're worried that if they play Tebow, he might do well and the fanbase will get behind him, at which point, it will be hard to justify using a first round draft pick on a QB. So, theyve decided to not play Tebow to avoid the risk and hope that they will outlast the fanbase on this.

Either that, or it really is about Tebow's escalators and theyre waiting until Bowlen doesn't have to play Tebow the escalators.

In either case, this whole notion of transparency is dead.

co-signed. the "hidden" agenda is driving things. not "best chance of winning".

Inkana7
10-03-2011, 01:52 PM
At this point I'm really hoping that Andrew Luck is at the end of this tunnel, because it's pretty clear to me that no QB on this roster can be elite, ever. And you don't win Super Bowls without an elite QB.

Hell, even Matt Barkley would make me happy.

Rohirrim
10-03-2011, 01:54 PM
Great questions Kaylore.

In regards to what EFX are planning long term, I'm not coming up with much that makes logical sense. One has to assume they don't want to bet their professional careers on Tebow, while at the same time, they appear scared that he might play well enough if given the chance to make him impossible to trade (fan support), thus forcing him upon them. Personally, I believe his contract and the new rookie wage scale further emboldens EFX to follow that path. Other than that, I think the plan is to just stay afloat while the team acquires young talent in the draft. I think Bowlen's financial issues will prevent us from having any type of "quick fix" on the free agent front.



It's also quite possible John Elway is a genius and this is all part of his master plan. Hire an old, out-dated coach in John Fox that needs a running game and defense to come close to winning, whom also has an odd affinity for untalented veterans. Knowing we have neither a run game nor a defense, along with an untalented veteran at QB, that hire almost insures a chance to get his BFF Andrew Luck. And maybe that's all it is. Get Luck, and go from there. Elway's been talking up his refusal to sign with Indy in offseason interviews, about how he had the leverage and how it has worked out well for him. We know he and Luck are close. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Luck pulls the same stunt to get to Denver. And Lord knows Elway would trade the farm for him.

This makes sense to me because Fox is both arrogant and stubborn enough to believe nobody would hire him to fail. And lets be honest, he does have some value in building up a defense, so he is theoretically able to help the team over the long haul even if he's only here a year or two. Plus, how can ANYBODY advocate keeping Brian Xanders around unless the goal is to *not* win. Meanwhile, Elway gets to act like he is defering to their experience and wisdom (or lack thereof), while he escapes the public backlash.


So, yeah, long story short, Suck for Luck. Keep Tebow tradeable by making sure his contract escalators are in no danger of vesting, so he'll be more appealable to teams. Let him build some value the last 5 or 6 games of this season, and if no takers, start him next year while Luck develops. He just needs to be gone or benched before 70% snaps in 2013 to avoid any significant financial risk.



As for what I would do. I'd probably do the same thing with Tebow. It makes a ton of financial sense. I would not have hired John Fox though, and would not Suck for Luck. After Week 11 or so of this year, I'd just go with Tebow until 2013 and judge him at that time. Meanwhile, just build through the draft and do what the budget allows, though I'd prioritize DT. If Jon Gruden ever wanted to coach again, I'd try and get him. I think he could do wonders for Tebow's development. I'd also move Franklin to LG, make Beadles a super reserve, bench Walton, obtain a RT and OC. Find a legitimate 3 tech and FB, and go heavy on CBs.

Man! That's downright Machiavellian. ;D

TonyR
10-03-2011, 01:56 PM
Bowlen/Ellis want to save as much money as possible during the seasons without a salary floor.

I think a lot of teams did this, to varying degrees. There were a few exceptions, of course, but most teams were pretty quiet in FA.

Dedhed
10-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Ok. That was probably a bad analogy. A better analogy would be the 2000 Baltimore Ravens. The quarterback wasn't a world beater, but he had the talent around him (on both sides of the ball) to get the job done...

What would be your attitude towards the 2011 Colts given that you're of the group who thinks that you can't blame this team's efforts on 1 player?

NUB
10-03-2011, 02:09 PM
The long term plan has to be getting Luck or someone like Landry. If it is not to get Luck then I really do not know what they are doing right now. Based on last year's performance, I think Tebow wins at least two of those first three games. Instead we're still bizarrely giving reps to the guy who wont be here who also happens to have lost out on the easiest part of the whole schedule. It is too bad Denver's press doesn't have the balls to ask tough questions a la the East Coast teams to really show how incompetent the team has been this whole damn season.

anon
10-03-2011, 02:47 PM
I think the secret plan right now is to maintain good draft position. I guess if we suck enough we will have a shot at Luck, but in general, I think EFX just wants good draft position over the next few years to stock the roster with solid young talent.

Playing Tebow may get us a few more wins, may make the team more exciting to watch, but really does nothing for the long-term other than worsen our draft position, as the current team is not a contender by any stretch of the imagination, regardless of how good or bad Tebow may turn out to be. As such, it is convenient, however embarrassing for EFX and infuriating for the fans, for EFX to trot out this "Orton gives us the best chance to win" excuse, as no team will actually admitting to "sucking" on purpose.

That's the optimistic take -- that there actually is a master plan of some sort. The pessimistic view is that they really do believe in what they are doing and are therefore idiots.

broncosteven
10-03-2011, 03:04 PM
Let this thread be about two things: What EFX is trying to do and what you think they should do.

Personally, I suppose they do not think Tebow can play and want to draft another QB. That or Fox things he'll lose the locker room if he doesn't let Orton start. Either of these don't really show any signs toward the long term goals of the franchise. Orton isn't taking this team anywhere, and especially if he leaves next season, what is the point of continuing on?

Is it possible they know Orton will lead them to Luck?

I think they wanted to use this year to set the foundation for the Defense.

I think they wanted to see what they had in the 3 QB's, I think Timbo sticks next year but we let Orton walk and cut Quinn then draft a QB and bring in a Vet backup. Timbo either wins the job outright next TC or is traded/cut.

Miller was a great draft pick and will pay divendends for years.

Outside of drafting a QB and maybe trying to uncover an RB in later rounds but the O would be set. Maybe bring in a FA to shore up OL depth.

It will take another 2 drafts to build the interior of the DL and fill out the secondary. I hope Irving can win the MLB job away from Mays that would speed the recovery process.

It is going to take 2 more years to untangle the cluster **** mCd left.

24champ
10-03-2011, 03:10 PM
It will take another 2 drafts to build the interior of the DL and fill out the secondary. I hope Irving can win the MLB job away from Mays that would speed the recovery process.


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llly0lEjkF1qe2u6o.gif

Coulda been done this past offseason with a deep DL draft and solid young FA players available. I don't think that the Broncos are ever going to get serious about building a defensive line. It's just going to be retreads for Denver, doing it the cheap way, the Pat Bowlen way.

CEH
10-03-2011, 03:12 PM
Denver will be going back to the orange home jerseys in 2012

Also Fox's news conference today has been delayed for over 3 hours now. Not sure the reason probably Fox trying to explain to Ellis and Bowlen why they have run this team into the ground and he can't create chicken salad from chicken sh?t

MplsBronco
10-03-2011, 03:16 PM
Did you read the post I quoted? It said, "If Tebow is not our future, we need to get as much value for him IN A TRADE."

So. Trade value.

They're called "sentences." read from left to right, top to bottom. Take Tylenol for any headaches. Midol for any cramps.

Yeah, they are doing a great job at building his trade value, moron.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 03:16 PM
Denver will be going back to the orange home jerseys I think ASAP

Also Fox's news conference today has been delayed for over 3 hours now. Not sure the reason probably Fox trying to explain to Ellis and Bowlen why they have run this team into the ground and he can't create chicken salad from chicken sh?t

How curious.

Will it be broadcast online, btw? I wanna watch

MacGruder
10-03-2011, 03:23 PM
It has to be. They just can't be as stupid as the decisions they are making.

I disagree. I think alot of people around the NFL that don't actually WATCH the Broncos play closely think Orton is a good QB.

I highly doubt Fox watched Orotn play all the games last season on video AND I have to wonder if Elway did too.

Either that or they didn't realize McD's system got Orton all those stats last year...

Another possibility is that the the organization (including McD) had planned on keeping Orton all along. It's possible that McD was trying to develop Tebow as an asset hoping he could trade either Orton, Tebow and even Quinn for valuable picks later like the Patriots did with Cassel.

So now Fox is just following that same plan and burying Tebow on the bench to prevent a Qb controversy and thinking Tebow still needs a lot of development.

Popps
10-03-2011, 03:26 PM
I've been assuming the long term plan is to improve/evaluate the whole team for the long term. Tebow's style is not what they want going forward, so they are sticking with Orton.

Tebow would be more interesting and maybe eek out a couple extra wins, but he's not going to help the rest of the team develop as an NFL calibre (read: pass heavy) offense as much as Orton will.

I hate it -- unless it actually pans out in 1-3 years

Like it or not, I think you're about as close as anyone with this take.
Fox has even given a few hints that this is the case.

I think they want to build something similar to what we faced yesterday, only with more emphasis on the run. In the minds of the staff/ownership, I'm guessing even a good version of Tebow doesn't fit into that mold.

It is a passing league, but remember... there are teams out there with 50/50 or even run-first philosophies that have had success recently. (Steelers, Giants, Ravens to a degree, etc.) So, it's not that what Fox wants to create can't work... we just don't have the personnel to maximize ANY philosophy at this stage.

People are judging Fox' philosophy, but he's a few games in. He's going to need more than one shortened offseason to put the pieces he wants in place.

People hate to wait, and I get it. Losing sucks. But, I've never heard of a championship caliber team being built in one offseason. We drafted poorly and did very little right in FA for over a decade, now. I mean... this is what you get.

Hopefully, this past (good) draft is a sign of things to come.

pricejj
10-03-2011, 03:26 PM
The top flight NFL teams (Green Bay Packers, New Orleans Saints, New England Patriots) ALL have extremely refined, accurate, passing offenses.

Last 5 Superbowl winners:

2010: Green Bay Packers
2009: New Orleans Saints
2008: Pittsburgh Steelers
2007: New York Giants
2006: Indianapolis Colts

What do all of these teams have in common? Great talent accross the board, with an elite QB (*eli), and awesome defenses.

The Broncos will take a QB in the 1st round next year, unless a QB currently on the roster proves that he is a franchise QB (which is not going to happen).

There are 6 QB's in the 2012 draft, who are better than the 2nd QB taken in the 2011 draft (Jake Locker), with the 7th overall pick.

1. Andrew Luck - 6'4"
2. Matt Barkley - 6'2"
3. Nick Foles - 6'5"
4. Robert Griffin - 6'2"
5. Landry Jones - 6'4"
6. Kellen Moore - 5"11.5"


All of those QB's are better than Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder, who were drafted in top 12 in 2011.

I assume the Broncos will be picking in the top 12 in 2012 (6-10 or worse). Problem is, there will probably be 5 QB's picked in the top 10.

Broncos, Dolphins, Jaguars, Colts, Chiefs, Vikings, Panthers, Seahawks, Cardinals, and Rams all are headed towards major suckage, and could compose the top 10. Of these teams, who needs a QB?

1. Dolphins
2. Colts
3. Chiefs
4. Seahawks
5. Cardinals
6. Broncos

The question is not IF the Broncos are going to select a QB, but WHO will be remaining when we pick?

TheDave
10-03-2011, 03:30 PM
The top flight NFL teams (Green Bay Packers, New Orleans Saints, New England Patriots) ALL have extremely refined, accurate, passing offenses.

Last 5 Superbowl winners:

2010: Green Bay Packers
2009: New Orleans Saints
2008: Pittsburgh Steelers
2007: New York Giants
2006: Indianapolis Colts

What do all of these teams have in common? Great talent accross the board, with an elite QB (*eli), and awesome defenses.

The Broncos will take a QB in the 1st round next year, unless a QB currently on the roster proves that he is a franchise QB (which is not going to happen).

There are 6 QB's in the 2012 draft, who are better than the 2nd QB taken in the 2011 draft (Jake Locker), with the 7th overall pick.

1. Andrew Luck - 6'4"
2. Matt Barkley - 6'2"
3. Nick Foles - 6'5"
4. Robert Griffin - 6'2"
5. Landry Jones - 6'4"
6. Kellen Moore - 5"11.5"


All of those QB's are better than Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder, who were drafted in top 12 in 2011.

I assume the Broncos will be picking in the top 12 in 2012 (6-10 or worse). Problem is, there will probably be 5 QB's picked in the top 10.

Broncos, Dolphins, Jaguars, Colts, Chiefs, Vikings, Panthers, Seahawks, Cardinals, and Rams all are headed towards major suckage, and could compose the top 10. Of these teams, who needs a QB?

1. Dolphins
2. Colts
3. Chiefs
4. Seahawks
5. Cardinals
6. Broncos

The question is not IF the Broncos are going to select a QB, but WHO will be remaining when we pick?

Obviously you are just a hater with an agenda. ;)

Actually, great post.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 03:30 PM
Like it or not, I think you're about as close as anyone with this take.
Fox has even given a few hints that this is the case.

I think they want to build something similar to what we faced yesterday, only with more emphasis on the run. In the minds of the staff/ownership, I'm guessing even a good version of Tebow doesn't fit into that mold.

It is a passing league, but remember... there are teams out there with 50/50 or even run-first philosophies that have had success recently. (Steelers, Giants, Ravens to a degree, etc.) So, it's not that what Fox wants to create can't work... we just don't have the personnel to maximize ANY philosophy at this stage.

People are judging Fox' philosophy, but he's a few games in. He's going to need more than one shortened offseason to put the pieces he wants in place.

People hate to wait, and I get it. Losing sucks. But, I've never heard of a championship caliber team being built in one offseason. We drafted poorly and did very little right in FA for over a decade, now. I mean... this is what you get.

Hopefully, this past (good) draft is a sign of things to come.

No a thousand times over.

If that were even remotely true, they would've known that this off-season... Instead, they had Orton on the block trying to trade him to move forward WITH Tebow. And they paid him his 6 million bonus or whatever it was.

These examples completely blow apart that theory.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-03-2011, 03:33 PM
Yeah, they are doing a great job at building his trade value, moron.

And if they think the guy straight up can't play the position, putting him into a game will... increase his value?

Derrrrrrrrrrrp.

pricejj
10-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Jags, Vikes, Panthers, Rams all picked QB's in 2010 or 2011...which means we will probably be at the bottom of the heap for a few years no matter who we get (unless it is Luck).

Can the guy we get be an elite guy, who can win a Superbowl? Take a look at the top 6 again, and ask if he can win a Superbowl.

I think Elway looks at those 6 QB's and says "Yes".
Any of those 6 could be a franchise guy, even Kellen Moore, who is only 5'11.5" (Drew Brees is 6'0").

broncosteven
10-03-2011, 03:47 PM
Like it or not, I think you're about as close as anyone with this take.
Fox has even given a few hints that this is the case.

I think they want to build something similar to what we faced yesterday, only with more emphasis on the run. In the minds of the staff/ownership, I'm guessing even a good version of Tebow doesn't fit into that mold.

It is a passing league, but remember... there are teams out there with 50/50 or even run-first philosophies that have had success recently. (Steelers, Giants, Ravens to a degree, etc.) So, it's not that what Fox wants to create can't work... we just don't have the personnel to maximize ANY philosophy at this stage.

People are judging Fox' philosophy, but he's a few games in. He's going to need more than one shortened offseason to put the pieces he wants in place.

People hate to wait, and I get it. Losing sucks. But, I've never heard of a championship caliber team being built in one offseason. We drafted poorly and did very little right in FA for over a decade, now. I mean... this is what you get.

Hopefully, this past (good) draft is a sign of things to come.

This is what happens when "the next big thing" doesn't work out.

Looks like the mCd hiring did set us back a couple years like some of us feared.

uplink
10-03-2011, 03:57 PM
I think they are trying to reach the playoffs this year and then start the future planning for the future once they are eliminated and during the offseason. Fox thinks Orton can win him more games I guess.

broncosteven
10-03-2011, 04:02 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llly0lEjkF1qe2u6o.gif

Coulda been done this past offseason with a deep DL draft and solid young FA players available. I don't think that the Broncos are ever going to get serious about building a defensive line. It's just going to be retreads for Denver, doing it the cheap way, the Pat Bowlen way.

Miller was a great pick, I prefer we got him over the top DT in the draft, I am hoping that they look at mid round DT's this year that we can home grow in a few years.

Sad thing is that the QB position now needs to be addressed and either way you look at it the Timbo pick was a waste 2 years on and we will need to waste another pick on QB rather than DL.

MagicHef
10-03-2011, 04:07 PM
One thing that bothers me:

Why would there be a brand new plan that started this season? Most of the guys that are running the team have been here for the past 2 years. This also makes me wonder why they drafted Tebow. No one currently there wants him, it didn't seem like McDaniels wanted to play him. That's all of the decision makers from when he was drafted. It's almost like they drafted him solely for the merchandise sales.

DBroncos4life
10-03-2011, 04:08 PM
The top flight NFL teams (Green Bay Packers, New Orleans Saints, New England Patriots) ALL have extremely refined, accurate, passing offenses.

Last 5 Superbowl winners:

2010: Green Bay Packers
2009: New Orleans Saints
2008: Pittsburgh Steelers
2007: New York Giants
2006: Indianapolis Colts

What do all of these teams have in common? Great talent accross the board, with an elite QB (*eli), and awesome defenses.

The Broncos will take a QB in the 1st round next year, unless a QB currently on the roster proves that he is a franchise QB (which is not going to happen).

There are 6 QB's in the 2012 draft, who are better than the 2nd QB taken in the 2011 draft (Jake Locker), with the 7th overall pick.

1. Andrew Luck - 6'4"
2. Matt Barkley - 6'2"
3. Nick Foles - 6'5"
4. Robert Griffin - 6'2"
5. Landry Jones - 6'4"
6. Kellen Moore - 5"11.5"


All of those QB's are better than Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder, who were drafted in top 12 in 2011.

I assume the Broncos will be picking in the top 12 in 2012 (6-10 or worse). Problem is, there will probably be 5 QB's picked in the top 10.

Broncos, Dolphins, Jaguars, Colts, Chiefs, Vikings, Panthers, Seahawks, Cardinals, and Rams all are headed towards major suckage, and could compose the top 10. Of these teams, who needs a QB?

1. Dolphins
2. Colts
3. Chiefs
4. Seahawks
5. Cardinals
6. Broncos

The question is not IF the Broncos are going to select a QB, but WHO will be remaining when we pick?

Russell Wilson should be on that list.

broncosteven
10-03-2011, 04:11 PM
One thing that bothers me:

Why would there be a brand new plan that started this season? Most of the guys that are running the team have been here for the past 2 years. This also makes me wonder why they drafted Tebow. No one currently there wants him, it didn't seem like McDaniels wanted to play him. That's all of the decision makers from when he was drafted. It's almost like they drafted him solely for the merchandise sales.

I wonder if mCd didn't make a rash decision to draft him, Timbo showed up and mCd found out he wasn't ready so he refused to play him until he had time to coach him up.

I am guessing mCd fell in love with Timbo's intangibles and thought he could fix him.

After all this was the same guy who wanted to trade for Matt Cassell...

I think Timbo is just one of mCd's greatest F'ups during his tenure.

serious hops
10-03-2011, 04:35 PM
I don't buy that there is any type of long term plan, at all, other than just the basic idea of squeezing as much money out of the franchise as possible.

The short term plan is try to field a team that can win 7-8 games with the lowest possible investment of cash. Hire the most qualified, experienced coach you can get on the cheap. Saddle him with the last failed regime's staff and "GM" to save cash. Hire the most beloved player in franchise history to stand out front and deflect as much fan anger as possible. The orange jersey campaign was a straight-up gift from God for the front office-- their PR hacks could never have designed a plan half as elegant. Perfect opportunity to give the fans something at no cost to themselves, while creating a new market for merchandise sales at the same time. And they're obviously going to hold Tebow in reserve as long as they possibly can, as a bone to throw fans when all else fails. Beyond that, they're probably just hoping that they can luck into a couple more picks like Von Miller, and get back to fielding an acceptable team without having to pay for a better coaching staff or add any more payroll than the league minimums.

In short, I think "the plan" is basically the same one that's worked so well for Donald Sterling all these years.

Who's excited?!

Agamemnon
10-03-2011, 04:36 PM
Isn't it obvious by now?

Long-term plan: Save Bowlen from bankruptcy.

MagicHef
10-03-2011, 04:36 PM
I wonder if mCd didn't make a rash decision to draft him, Timbo showed up and mCd found out he wasn't ready so he refused to play him until he had time to coach him up.

I am guessing mCd fell in love with Timbo's intangibles and thought he could fix him.

After all this was the same guy who wanted to trade for Matt Cassell...

I think Timbo is just one of mCd's greatest F'ups during his tenure.

McDaniels was way too pig-headedly stubborn on so many issues for me to believe that he just changed his mind on Tebow that suddenly. Even if he did, there's no way it would take him so long to start using Tebow if he originally believed in him.

Archer81
10-03-2011, 04:37 PM
The plan appears to be making the fanbase hate the team so they can move it to LA.


:Broncos:

broncosteven
10-03-2011, 05:01 PM
McDaniels was way too pig-headedly stubborn on so many issues for me to believe that he just changed his mind on Tebow that suddenly. Even if he did, there's no way it would take him so long to start using Tebow if he originally believed in him.

Ummmm Remember him using a future 1st to move up to grab a CB in the 2nd round only to trade him away a year later?

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2011, 05:03 PM
The top flight NFL teams (Green Bay Packers, New Orleans Saints, New England Patriots) ALL have extremely refined, accurate, passing offenses.

Last 5 Superbowl winners:

2010: Green Bay Packers
2009: New Orleans Saints
2008: Pittsburgh Steelers
2007: New York Giants
2006: Indianapolis Colts

What do all of these teams have in common? Great talent accross the board, with an elite QB (*eli), and awesome defenses.

The Broncos will take a QB in the 1st round next year, unless a QB currently on the roster proves that he is a franchise QB (which is not going to happen).

There are 6 QB's in the 2012 draft, who are better than the 2nd QB taken in the 2011 draft (Jake Locker), with the 7th overall pick.

1. Andrew Luck - 6'4"
2. Matt Barkley - 6'2"
3. Nick Foles - 6'5"
4. Robert Griffin - 6'2"
5. Landry Jones - 6'4"
6. Kellen Moore - 5"11.5"


All of those QB's are better than Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder, who were drafted in top 12 in 2011.

I assume the Broncos will be picking in the top 12 in 2012 (6-10 or worse). Problem is, there will probably be 5 QB's picked in the top 10.

Broncos, Dolphins, Jaguars, Colts, Chiefs, Vikings, Panthers, Seahawks, Cardinals, and Rams all are headed towards major suckage, and could compose the top 10. Of these teams, who needs a QB?

1. Dolphins
2. Colts
3. Chiefs
4. Seahawks
5. Cardinals
6. Broncos

The question is not IF the Broncos are going to select a QB, but WHO will be remaining when we pick?

Roethlisberger isnt an elite QB. Pittsburgh winning SBs has created the perception that Roethliseberger is elite, but he's not. Playing on a team that wins a SB doesnt make you elite. Neither is Eli Manning.

Also, its very possible that your analysis of QB prospects is wrong. And besides, what would it mean if they are better than Locker? Locker hasnt done anything yet either. Saying they're better doesnt mean they should be drafted in the 1st.

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2011, 05:11 PM
No a thousand times over.

If that were even remotely true, they would've known that this off-season... Instead, they had Orton on the block trying to trade him to move forward WITH Tebow. And they paid him his 6 million bonus or whatever it was.

These examples completely blow apart that theory.

You make a solid point but its possible that at various points in time EFX might proceed according to the input of Elway, Fox, or Xanders, then at a different point in time change gears and move according to someone elses input. So, for example, at one point in time, Xanders may have been recommending to trade Orton, and Elway acquiesced. But then that didnt happen and Elway might have asserted himself more and so things went in a different direction.

Popps
10-03-2011, 05:17 PM
This is what happens when "the next big thing" doesn't work out.

Looks like the mCd hiring did set us back a couple years like some of us feared.

Yea, some feared it may... some thought it might not. Guess what, when a coach is hired... one of two things usually happens.

A. **** goes well.

B. **** doesn't go well.

Clearly, McDaniels either wasn't talented enough or didn't have the right system in place for him to be successful. (Or both.)

On the upside, most of Shanahan's "starters" were complete garbage and were out of the league by the next season. A few guys like Bailey were keepers, but we had no starters and no depth when McDaniels took over.
With only a few exceptions, most of our draft picks over the last 10 years has been garbage. The two biggest cast-offs (Cutler/Marshall) of the Shanahan era have been something between average and a total failure.
And I was as big of a Shanahan fan as you could find back in the day. But, time marches on.

So, let's not pretend there was some sort of magical team of the future being built in Denver. I mean, Shanahan lost his job for a reason.


The relevancy of some of us supporting one past staff or another at this point is pretty pointless. The last coach is gone, the new coach is here. Most people have moved on to analyzing the new staff. For every thing that one of us was "right" about... we were wrong about just as much. This is a football message board. None of us are in danger of being recruited for front office work any time soon.

And by the way... Fox isn't "the next big thing," and people hate him already. He's a solid, old-school, defensive-minded coach and people are ready to run him out of town.

The other guy we (I) wanted instead of McDaniels is very close to losing his job in St. Louis, some think.

I guess this stuff isn't that easy, huh.

Popps
10-03-2011, 05:21 PM
Roethlisberger isnt an elite QB. Pittsburgh winning SBs has created the perception that Roethliseberger is elite, but he's not. Playing on a team that wins a SB doesnt make you elite. Neither is Eli Manning.

Yea, but I don't think it's fair to put Rapist in Manning's category. Ben R. is a difference-maker at QB. He's got all of those intangible things that Orton seems to lack, along with a strong arm and good mobility.

I mean, people told me Aikman wasn't elite all of those years, too... but I saw with my own eyes a QB that was doing things that 90% of other QB's couldn't do. It just didn't look as flashy as some others.

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2011, 05:27 PM
Yea, some feared it may... some thought it might not. Guess what, when a coach is hired... one of two things usually happens.

A. **** goes well.

B. **** doesn't go well.

Clearly, McDaniels either wasn't talented enough or didn't have the right system in place for him to be successful. (Or both.)

On the upside, most of Shanahan's "starters" were complete garbage and were out of the league by the next season. A few guys like Bailey were keepers, but we had no starters and no depth when McDaniels took over.
With only a few exceptions, most of our draft picks over the last 10 years has been garbage. The two biggest cast-offs (Cutler/Marshall) of the Shanahan era have been something between average and a total failure.
And I was as big of a Shanahan fan as you could find back in the day. But, time marches on.

So, let's not pretend there was some sort of magical team of the future being built in Denver. I mean, Shanahan lost his job for a reason.

The relevancy of some of us supporting one past staff or another at this point is pretty pointless. The last coach is gone, the new coach is here. Most people have moved on to analyzing the new staff. For every thing that one of us was "right" about... we were wrong about just as much. This is a football message board. None of us are in danger of being recruited for front office work any time soon.

And by the way... Fox isn't "the next big thing," and people hate him already. He's a solid, old-school, defensive-minded coach and people are ready to run him out of town.

The other guy we (I) wanted instead of McDaniels is very close to losing his job in St. Louis, some think.

I guess this stuff isn't that easy, huh.

And you claim to know what that reason is? Are you certain Shanahan simply didnt lose in a power struggle with Joe Ellis. And compared to what we've been seeing, it most definitely was a magical team.

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2011, 05:30 PM
Yea, but I don't think it's fair to put Rapist in Manning's category. Ben R. is a difference-maker at QB. He's got all of those intangible things that Orton seems to lack, along with a strong arm and good mobility.

I mean, people told me Aikman wasn't elite all of those years, too... but I saw with my own eyes a QB that was doing things that 90% of other QB's couldn't do. It just didn't look as flashy as some others.

I agree. Who said I put Manning in Roethlisbergers category. Roethlisberger is more of a playmaker than he is a QB, at least in respect to what we're talking about.

broncosteven
10-03-2011, 05:34 PM
Yea, some feared it may... some thought it might not. Guess what, when a coach is hired... one of two things usually happens.

A. **** goes well.

B. **** doesn't go well.

Clearly, McDaniels either wasn't talented enough or didn't have the right system in place for him to be successful. (Or both.)

On the upside, most of Shanahan's "starters" were complete garbage and were out of the league by the next season. A few guys like Bailey were keepers, but we had no starters and no depth when McDaniels took over.
With only a few exceptions, most of our draft picks over the last 10 years has been garbage. The two biggest cast-offs (Cutler/Marshall) of the Shanahan era have been something between average and a total failure.
And I was as big of a Shanahan fan as you could find back in the day. But, time marches on.

So, let's not pretend there was some sort of magical team of the future being built in Denver. I mean, Shanahan lost his job for a reason.


The relevancy of some of us supporting one past staff or another at this point is pretty pointless. The last coach is gone, the new coach is here. Most people have moved on to analyzing the new staff. For every thing that one of us was "right" about... we were wrong about just as much. This is a football message board. None of us are in danger of being recruited for front office work any time soon.

And by the way... Fox isn't "the next big thing," and people hate him already. He's a solid, old-school, defensive-minded coach and people are ready to run him out of town.

The other guy we (I) wanted instead of McDaniels is very close to losing his job in St. Louis, some think.

I guess this stuff isn't that easy, huh.

It is less about being right or wrong and more about people not willing to listen to a counter argument or looking at what the potential red flags a guy had.

At least our current HC has actual NFL experience and has taken teams to the SB. That right there makes me feel that we have made the right changes to fix the mistakes of the past.

Hulamau
10-03-2011, 06:24 PM
The lockerroom seemed to rally behind Tebow last year. We went 1-2, but the guys played hard, never gave up in any of those games. I don't buy that for a reason at all.

Yeah but that was after the nuclear blast and Orton was dinged up which was obvious to everyone in the locker room. There was absolutely nothing left to play for but a little pride at the end of the year on a coachless team so its easy to see how they all rallied around Tebow and his enthusiam.

I think even the teams we played took a measure of pity on us too .. well maybe not Oakland :-) ...

Tebow will get his shot earlier this year. Hell Fox had game-planned for him to have a much larger role at QB yesterday as a strategy to slow down the GB steamroller by keeping Rogers off the field with a clock managing run game with Tebow at the helm for much of it. Alas GB had a different and more effective game plan.... take a big lead slicing through their Champ-less rookie secondary ... I mean gaping sieve... pick 6 a clueless Orton pass to Woodson then **** them in the arse with an on sides kick for 7 more!

That 86ed the Tebow plans right there but at least Fox had game planned it which makes a lie to all the speculation (ala Macgruder) that Fox for some reason 'hates' Tebow!

MagicHef
10-03-2011, 07:12 PM
Tebow will get his shot earlier this year. Hell Fox had game-planned for him to have a much larger role at QB yesterday as a strategy to slow down the GB steamroller by keeping Rogers off the field with a clock managing run game with Tebow at the helm for much of it. Alas GB had a different and more effective game plan.... take a big lead slicing through their Champ-less rookie secondary ... I mean gaping sieve... pick 6 a clueless Orton pass to Woodson then **** them in the arse with an on sides kick for 7 more!

That 86ed the Tebow plans right there but at least Fox had game planned it which makes a lie to all the speculation (ala Macgruder) that Fox for some reason 'hates' Tebow!

Just as an aside, I have heard that bridges make excellent real estate investments.

Popps
10-03-2011, 07:12 PM
It is less about being right or wrong and more about people not willing to listen to a counter argument or looking at what the potential red flags a guy had.

At least our current HC has actual NFL experience and has taken teams to the SB. That right there makes me feel that we have made the right changes to fix the mistakes of the past.

There are 101 counter-arguments to hiring John Fox. Plenty of people feel he has plenty of red flags. I personally liked the hiring. But, I thought McDaniels could do good things in Denver. I also thought Spags was the best choice, and he's not faring well.

See, we can play this game all day. I mean, it's fun to debate... but let's not cherry-pick after the fact and make comments like our **** doesn't stink. I've gotten a bunch of things right... and wrong around here. Honestly, who cares?

Again, time marches on. The more interesting topic on the table to me is what's going on with Fox and company. Lots of questions to be answered.

Gort
10-03-2011, 07:15 PM
I agree. Who said I put Manning in Roethlisbergers category. Roethlisberger is more of a playmaker than he is a QB, at least in respect to what we're talking about.

my dislike of Worthlessburger matches up with anyone else here, but the reality is that he's taken his team to the SB 3 times (winning twice) in what? his 6 years... 7 years... in the league? the guy has to be considered elite simply because he's winning championships, and that's ultimately what it's all about. what really sucks is that he's now a borderline HOF candidate as a result. all i know is if that happens, i hope the townspeople of Canton hide their womenfolk that week!

Rock Chalk
10-03-2011, 07:17 PM
Let this thread be about two things: What EFX is trying to do and what you think they should do.

Personally, I suppose they do not think Tebow can play and want to draft another QB. That or Fox things he'll lose the locker room if he doesn't let Orton start. Either of these don't really show any signs toward the long term goals of the franchise. Orton isn't taking this team anywhere, and especially if he leaves next season, what is the point of continuing on?

Is it possible they know Orton will lead them to Luck?

This is what is bugging me.

There are 3 outcomes to starting Tebow, listed from most likely to least likely:

1) Sucks so bad we draft QB next year.
2) Shows enough promise that we draft QB in later rounds next year
3) Lights it up and becomes franchise QB.

Either way, we find out what the **** we are doing next year.

I was willing to give Orton the benefit of the doubt merely because I thought maybe the team as a whole had improved. Instead, our defense looks, well pretty much the same. Against good running teams = run down completely. Against good passing teams = shredded in the secondary.

Offensive line still cant consistently run or pass block. Defensively still cant stop anyone when it matters most (Cincy not withstanding, a rare gem against a bad team).

At this point we know what we have. Better garbage than last year but still garbage. Throw Tebow in there so we can quickly end this experiment and move on from all three worthless QBs.

CEH
10-03-2011, 07:23 PM
Clady, Kuper, Hillis, Cutler, Marshall, Bailiey, DJ Williams, Woodyard, Elvis all starters in the NFL.

vs a 3rd string first round QB, a 2nd/3rd string 1st round RB (hello Brian Orkapo) , a 1st round CB traded for a 7th round TE (hello Earl Thomas) , a cut 2nd round S, a cut 2nd round TE (hello Mike Wallace) and I'm sure I forgot others. The best pick of the McD era was a 3rd round WR and maybe Joe Mays. Beadles and Walton are on the fence with the new regime

Yet Shanny left the cupboard bare. 2 years worth of picks for 2 players McD added nothing to the team except an disorganized Front office and an albratross around the neck of the new FO

Popps
10-03-2011, 07:31 PM
Clady, Kuper, Hillis, Cutler, Marshall, Bailiey, DJ Williams, Woodyard, Elvis all starters in the NFL.


Two of those guys are elite players. Actually, when they're healthy.

We drafted horribly for a decade. I mean, if you were around... you saw it. No need to even go over it.

Again, Shanahan lost his job because we went 10 years with only one playoff win. We routinely screwed the pooch in the draft. The fact that we had a few NFL-caliber players when he was fired doesn't mean much.

I think what most people miss is that Shanahan is one of the best game-day coaches in the NFL. His teams regularly over-performed. That, if anything... is what the argument should be. Not that he was a great draft-day coach or talent evaluator because after the SBs... he simply wasn't.

Popps
10-03-2011, 07:38 PM
This is what is bugging me.

There are 3 outcomes to starting Tebow, listed from most likely to least likely:

1) Sucks so bad we draft QB next year.
2) Shows enough promise that we draft QB in later rounds next year
3) Lights it up and becomes franchise QB.


I'm just guessing here... but Fox makes it seem like he'd rather just lose games with Orton than with Tebow, because Orton is a better fit for the kind of offense they want to run going forward. (Or win games with Orton, of course.)

I mean, outside of the conspiracy theories... all you have is the obvious. The staff has no confidence in Tebow, and probably doesn't think he's the right fit going forward. In other words, Orton as a placeholder until next season (in their minds) is better than a scrambling QB, running around making a few plays, but one who isn't ready to operate from the pocket regularly.
Fox and Co. must feel like the line/receivers/coaches benefit more from running a version of their offense this season as "practice" with a guy who's a better fit, despite his shortcomings.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what it looks like. Not saying I agree with it.

See, McDaniels was ready to install a system around Tebow and build an offense that suited him. The new staff/ownership doesn't seem to have that same interest.

So, a 2011 1st round QB seems like the obvious answer.

broncosteven
10-03-2011, 07:38 PM
There are 101 counter-arguments to hiring John Fox. Plenty of people feel he has plenty of red flags. I personally liked the hiring. But, I thought McDaniels could do good things in Denver. I also thought Spags was the best choice, and he's not faring well.

See, we can play this game all day. I mean, it's fun to debate... but let's not cherry-pick after the fact and make comments like our **** doesn't stink. I've gotten a bunch of things right... and wrong around here. Honestly, who cares?

Again, time marches on. The more interesting topic on the table to me is what's going on with Fox and company. Lots of questions to be answered.

I don't have the strength to have a knock down drag out with you, still recovering from surgery but I think we are on the same page.

Am I bitter about being knocked down and attacked here the last 2 years for having doubts about our HC, YEP! Am I glad he is gone? YEP!

I also liked Fox from day 1, he was a safe hire, he can build a solid foundation and call upon a vast array of NFL contacts and experience.

Is the FO doing all it can to win now? Nope, I get the feeling they want to see how guys react under Fox this year before blowing it all up and overspending on FA's.

This year is the test drive year, next year is the talent year, and the following is the depth year.

If we aren't in playoffs in 3 years then it is time to look for new guy. We can't afford to change HC's every 18 months.

Rock Chalk
10-03-2011, 07:57 PM
I'm just guessing here... but Fox makes it seem like he'd rather just lose games with Orton than with Tebow, because Orton is a better fit for the kind of offense they want to run going forward. (Or win games with Orton, of course.)

I mean, outside of the conspiracy theories... all you have is the obvious. The staff has no confidence in Tebow, and probably doesn't think he's the right fit going forward. In other words, Orton as a placeholder until next season (in their minds) is better than a scrambling QB, running around making a few plays, but one who isn't ready to operate from the pocket regularly.
Fox and Co. must feel like the line/receivers/coaches benefit more from running a version of their offense this season as "practice" with a guy who's a better fit, despite his shortcomings.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what it looks like. Not saying I agree with it.

See, McDaniels was ready to install a system around Tebow and build an offense that suited him. The new staff/ownership doesn't seem to have that same interest.

So, a 2011 1st round QB seems like the obvious answer.

This is the only thing I have been able to come up with.

Look Im no Tebow fan. I hate his ****ing guts and the entire Gator Nation that has dragged their Tebow drooling ass over to the Mane BUT I cannot think of one single reason why, on 1st and ****ing goal from the 2 yard line you dont at least try a Tebow play once, maybe even twice. And WHEN Tebow has been in the game I have cheered for him because I cheer for the team to win.

Orton, with a good team around him, can manage games and do some good things from a good pocket. We've seen him make some good throws and read defenses. He's far from the best QB out there and he cant carry a team. Well this team needs more than that. Tebow probably doesnt give us that but can we at least SEE what the **** he has to offer at this point?

My pops says (and he hates, HATES Orton btw) that "that's conceding the season after 4 games, do you really want to do that?" and Im like "Well, if I thought for one second that our team was any good, no, but our team sucks on the whole. So what the **** why not put Tebow in there now?

Hamrob
10-03-2011, 08:06 PM
I've been and continue to be a fan who wants to see what we have in Tebow. I truly believe in the Kid and hope that he is given a real chance. Moreover, this is an oppurtune time to give him that chance. He needs at least 10 games in a row to accurately gauge whether he has NFL starter talent and ability. Yes, he is Tgoing to screw up...and we need to stick with him...because he is young.

As for EFX, I think they do have a plan.......and it's a very good one. Now, having said that, let me clarify. I believe in John Elway...and I believe that he has a plan...Fox and Xanders may or may not be in his plans...depending on their performance.

Elway's Plan:

3yrs

Year 1 - DRAFT the best talent you have the oppurtunity to get your hands on. Don't spend money on Free Agents for stop gap measures. Save your money. Evaluate the QB position.

Year 2 - DRAFT the best talent you have the oppurtunity to get your hands on. Don't spend a lot of money on Free Agents. Save your money. Team improves through 2 straight solid drafts. This is now either Tebow's team or you draft your QB here.

Year 3 - DRAFT the best talent you have the oppurtunity to get your hands on. Spend money on the best Free Agent for need positions. Tebow is coming into his own...OR...your rookie QB is now a 2nd year guy ready to take the reigns of a team with vastly improved talent around him. This is the year (2013) that we are back to the old Broncos...continuously challenging for the playoffs.

montrose
10-03-2011, 08:14 PM
Long-term plan. What is it?

I don't know, and whatever it is, it probably won't work.

Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

Ergen is the founder Denver-based Dish Network and currently resides in Denver. He's one of the richest men in the world according to Forbes. He overpays for the team, denying Edgar Keiser from matching, in hopes of parlaying the team into national prominance. Much as Ted Turner built the Atlanta Braves on TBS, Ergen uses Dish Network as his personal platform for the Broncos. Every Broncos game available to Dish subscribers (yeah I know Directv wont allow it but it's my hypothetical gift to Jeff and Mike), a 24-7 Broncos channel and more! Ergen is an experienced, wealthy, successful businessperson perfect to own the Denver Broncos for the next quarter-century.

2) Ergen fires Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and John Fox. Reassigns John Elway as the team's official "ambassador".

Probably Mike and Jeff's favorite part of the plan. Ergen starts to rebuild the organization by trimming the fat.

3) Ergen hires Eric DeCosta as General Manager and empowers DeCosta to find team's next Head Coach.

Your welcome Jeff.

4) DeCosta hires Kyle Shanahan as the new Head Coach of the Denver Broncos.

Shanahan's staff consists heavily of coaches with ties to the Broncos organization including Alex Gibbs!

5) DeCosta reacquires Jay Cutler via trade and Peyton Hillis/Tony Scheffler via free agency

Can this plan seriously get any better?

6) DeCosta hires Jim Goodman as lead consultant.

It just did...

7) Shanahan names Gary Kubiak OC and Larry Coyer DC.

Your crying now aren't you?

8) Finally, the "Paul D. Bowlen" name outside Dove Valley is removed

The crescendo!

CEH
10-03-2011, 08:19 PM
Two of those guys are elite players. Actually, when they're healthy.

We drafted horribly for a decade. I mean, if you were around... you saw it. No need to even go over it.

Again, Shanahan lost his job because we went 10 years with only one playoff win. We routinely screwed the pooch in the draft. The fact that we had a few NFL-caliber players when he was fired doesn't mean much.

I think what most people miss is that Shanahan is one of the best game-day coaches in the NFL. His teams regularly over-performed. That, if anything... is what the argument should be. Not that he was a great draft-day coach or talent evaluator because after the SBs... he simply wasn't.

You said

"but we had no starters and no depth when McDaniels took over"

I just gave you 8 out of 22 players that were starters when McD took over. To act like the cupboard was bare is just making excuses for what McD failed to do here

8 is more than "a few" when you consider only 22 can play at one time

Archer81
10-03-2011, 08:26 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ACnqI1l4I9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:Broncos:

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 08:33 PM
You said

"but we had no starters and no depth when McDaniels took over"

I just gave you 8 out of 22 players that were starters when McD took over. To act like the cupboard was bare is just making excuses for what McD failed to do here

8 is more than "a few" when you consider only 22 can play at one time

Eddie Royal's been starting when healthy ever since being drafted, so there's another.

Marcus Thomas was a priority to be a starter in Denver by the current regime, so there's another.

Ryan Harris was a starter and Philly paid and planned on him being their RT until injury, so there's another.

Lichtensteiger is currently a starter on a better OL and vastly outperforming Beadles, so there's another.

Josh Barrett is starting for NE, so there's another.

Casey Weigman has still been playing at a high level for KC since Josh moved on in favor of JD effing Walton, so there's another.

And honestly that's without doing any reaching to talk about how many starts Crowder has, or how Torain looked the other night, and Jarvis Moss (gross) with a 2 sack performance and now the starting role, etc.

OrangeSe7en
10-03-2011, 08:36 PM
my dislike of Worthlessburger matches up with anyone else here, but the reality is that he's taken his team to the SB 3 times (winning twice) in what? his 6 years... 7 years... in the league? the guy has to be considered elite simply because he's winning championships, and that's ultimately what it's all about. what really sucks is that he's now a borderline HOF candidate as a result. all i know is if that happens, i hope the townspeople of Canton hide their womenfolk that week!

Thats not true at all. Rivers is a better QB than Roethlisberger is and he's never been to a Super Bowl. People need to get away from the idea that a QB that plays on a SB team is elite solely on that basis. I realize he's better than Dilfer with the Ravens but still, that means that Pittsburgh has had some great teams as much as anything, especially on defense.

SoCalBronco
10-03-2011, 08:42 PM
Plan:

1. Ride out Fox at least a couple more years so the old man doesn't have to pay 3-4 coaches at once and also because at slightly over 2m per season, its at the bottom salary tier.
2. Spend abnormally low amounts for at least another summer since the cap floor does not come into effect until 2013.
3. Squeeze all the revenue you can out of Tebowmania and when its largely gone, dump him unceremoniously.
4. Draft a QB next year somewhere in the first couple rounds to make sure people keep going to games and have something to "look forward to". There always has to be a glimmer of hope to maintain income levels.
5. Continue with cheap, superficial, gimmicky surface appeal PR tactics like orange jerseys, John Elway et al. to maintain acceptable revenue levels among casual fans without having to make significant monetary investments.

Popps
10-03-2011, 08:55 PM
I don't have the strength to have a knock down drag out with you, still recovering from surgery but I think we are on the same page.

No need, and I hope you're recovering well. Sorry our Broncos couldn't give you a better effort yesterday.



Am I bitter about being knocked down and attacked here the last 2 years for having doubts about our HC, YEP! Am I glad he is gone? YEP!


Hey, and you were in the majority. Imagine if you were in the minority of people who (at least before the spygate II nonsense) wanted to give him more time. I mean, I've never seen a Broncos figure hated the way McD was. So, at least you were in good company.

But, personally... I also saw the writing on the wall, and was happy to move on at a certain point.

My point simply was... any of us can make predictive posts or take predictive stances... and get it right about 50% of the time. We've all done it.


Is the FO doing all it can to win now? Nope, I get the feeling they want to see how guys react under Fox this year before blowing it all up and overspending on FA's.

This year is the test drive year, next year is the talent year, and the following is the depth year.

If we aren't in playoffs in 3 years then it is time to look for new guy. We can't afford to change HC's every 18 months.

That's all very rational, imo. I believe that's how the staff sees it, as well.
The fans will hate it, but I believe it's the truth.

Again, I like Fox. I have to admit I do have some questions at this point. I'm not wild about certain things I've seen/heard. But, I felt that an experienced, defensive-minded head coach was the right thing before McDaniels was hired... and I felt the same after he was fired.
Will I be right? Let's hope so. Rebuilding years are getting very tiring.

Rest up and get better.

broncogary
10-03-2011, 08:57 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ACnqI1l4I9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:Broncos:


I don't think EFX is that cunning. ROFL!

Atwater His Ass
10-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

Ergen is the founder Denver-based Dish Network and currently resides in Denver. He's one of the richest men in the world according to Forbes. He overpays for the team, denying Edgar Keiser from matching, in hopes of parlaying the team into national prominance. Much as Ted Turner built the Atlanta Braves on TBS, Ergen uses Dish Network as his personal platform for the Broncos. Every Broncos game available to Dish subscribers (yeah I know Directv wont allow it but it's my hypothetical gift to Jeff and Mike), a 24-7 Broncos channel and more! Ergen is an experienced, wealthy, successful businessperson perfect to own the Denver Broncos for the next quarter-century.

2) Ergen fires Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and John Fox. Reassigns John Elway as the team's official "ambassador".

Probably Mike and Jeff's favorite part of the plan. Ergen starts to rebuild the organization by trimming the fat.

3) Ergen hires Eric DeCosta as General Manager and empowers DeCosta to find team's next Head Coach.

Your welcome Jeff.

4) DeCosta hires Kyle Shanahan as the new Head Coach of the Denver Broncos.

Shanahan's staff consists heavily of coaches with ties to the Broncos organization including Alex Gibbs!

5) DeCosta reacquires Jay Cutler via trade and Peyton Hillis/Tony Scheffler via free agency

Can this plan seriously get any better?

6) DeCosta hires Jim Goodman as lead consultant.

It just did...

7) Shanahan names Gary Kubiak OC and Larry Coyer DC.

Your crying now aren't you?

8) Finally, the "Paul D. Bowlen" name outside Dove Valley is removed

The crescendo!

Post of the year!

TailgateNut
10-03-2011, 09:09 PM
Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

2) Ergen fires Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and John Fox. Reassigns John Elway as the team's official "ambassador".

3) Ergen hires Eric DeCosta as General Manager and empowers DeCosta to find team's next Head Coach.

4) DeCosta hires Kyle Shanahan as the new Head Coach of the Denver Broncos.

5) DeCosta reacquires Jay Cutler via trade and Peyton Hillis/Tony Scheffler via free agency

6) DeCosta hires Jim Goodman as lead consultant.

7) Shanahan names Gary Kubiak OC and Larry Coyer DC.

8) Finally, the "Paul D. Bowlen" name outside Dove Valley is removed

The crescendo!


I would fully back #6 and 7.

SoCalBronco
10-03-2011, 09:14 PM
Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

Ergen is the founder Denver-based Dish Network and currently resides in Denver. He's one of the richest men in the world according to Forbes. He overpays for the team, denying Edgar Keiser from matching, in hopes of parlaying the team into national prominance. Much as Ted Turner built the Atlanta Braves on TBS, Ergen uses Dish Network as his personal platform for the Broncos. Every Broncos game available to Dish subscribers (yeah I know Directv wont allow it but it's my hypothetical gift to Jeff and Mike), a 24-7 Broncos channel and more! Ergen is an experienced, wealthy, successful businessperson perfect to own the Denver Broncos for the next quarter-century.

2) Ergen fires Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and John Fox. Reassigns John Elway as the team's official "ambassador".

Probably Mike and Jeff's favorite part of the plan. Ergen starts to rebuild the organization by trimming the fat.

3) Ergen hires Eric DeCosta as General Manager and empowers DeCosta to find team's next Head Coach.

Your welcome Jeff.

4) DeCosta hires Kyle Shanahan as the new Head Coach of the Denver Broncos.

Shanahan's staff consists heavily of coaches with ties to the Broncos organization including Alex Gibbs!

5) DeCosta reacquires Jay Cutler via trade and Peyton Hillis/Tony Scheffler via free agency

Can this plan seriously get any better?

6) DeCosta hires Jim Goodman as lead consultant.

It just did...

7) Shanahan names Gary Kubiak OC and Larry Coyer DC.

Your crying now aren't you?

8) Finally, the "Paul D. Bowlen" name outside Dove Valley is removed

The crescendo!

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/P3ALwKeSEYs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What an awesome plan. That should be our destiny.....in an ideal world.

I especially liked removing the Paul D. Bowlen name from Dove Valley....you could also add removal of all photos or references to Bowlen in the building and editing out Bowlen's image and voice from the "This one's for John" and replacing it with Shanny's on all NFL productions involving film from SB32.

I would fly to Denver to coordinate Jay's triumphant return and line the streets with rose petals to commemorate his grand return as our leader and hero.

Great job, Raj. :strong: Honestly, I was kind of in a bad mood today because one of my co-workers is out sick this week and we got dumped on us all of her hearings at the last second in addition to our regular calendar, but this post really got me into a happier mood.

HAT
10-03-2011, 09:19 PM
I hate recycled coaches but it's pretty clear tha Kub's is gonna get canned after this year.

The Titans are going to roll that division & Kubs will have no excuse for missing the playoffs with Manning out.

May as well give it a shot with Elway. Kubs, Wade, & Tebow.....**** it, find a spot for Reeves too.

DBroncos4life
10-03-2011, 10:57 PM
I hate recycled coaches but it's pretty clear tha Kub's is gonna get canned after this year.

The Titans are going to roll that division & Kubs will have no excuse for missing the playoffs with Manning out.

May as well give it a shot with Elway. Kubs, Wade, & Tebow.....**** it, find a spot for Reeves too.

Houston is 3-1 and you think it's pretty clear that Kubes is going to get fired Hilarious!

24champ
10-04-2011, 12:19 AM
Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

Ergen is the founder Denver-based Dish Network and currently resides in Denver. He's one of the richest men in the world according to Forbes. He overpays for the team, denying Edgar Keiser from matching, in hopes of parlaying the team into national prominance. Much as Ted Turner built the Atlanta Braves on TBS, Ergen uses Dish Network as his personal platform for the Broncos. Every Broncos game available to Dish subscribers (yeah I know Directv wont allow it but it's my hypothetical gift to Jeff and Mike), a 24-7 Broncos channel and more! Ergen is an experienced, wealthy, successful businessperson perfect to own the Denver Broncos for the next quarter-century.

Charlie Ergen would be a good owner for the Broncos and I still believe that the idea of Bowlen going to own the Rams by swapping shares with Kroenke is still very much alive. Los Angeles is closer to Hawaii where Pat Bowlen resides for most of the year.

Ergen wouldn't do the TV stuff for just the Broncos, as the NFL is under contract. However you bring up a great candidate to be owner, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ergen find that ownership of the Broncos be appealing because it would be a platform to get Dish Network in the game for the NFL TV rights. I may be wrong but DirectTV's contract expires after the 2014 season, so that is a couple years down the road.



2) Ergen fires Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and John Fox. Reassigns John Elway as the team's official "ambassador".

Probably Mike and Jeff's favorite part of the plan. Ergen starts to rebuild the organization by trimming the fat.

Hypothetically, If I was Ergen, I would reassign Elway to be Vice President of Business Operations. Essentially would overtake that POS Ellis. Plus this is where Elway has experience and can do a great job at. Elway is god in the eyes of Broncos fans, and I would have him stay on board to maintain good relations with Corporate sponsors and more importantly, the fans. He will have less power and control that Ellis has currently, he will not meddle in the Football operations unless asked for his input.

Will Elway take a position like that? I don't know, its either that or he can go back into his private business dealings.


3) Ergen hires Eric DeCosta as General Manager and empowers DeCosta to find team's next Head Coach.


Thanks but the Broncos will have to act quickly and make a big offer to pry DeCosta away from Baltimore.

Q: You talked last year of trying to reach an agreement with Eric DeCosta to essentially make him "the GM in waiting." Did you do that?

A: We worked out a nice new contract with Eric that gives him a lot of financial incentive to stay. It's not enough to stop him from leaving but enough to encourage him to stay. We addressed it right after the draft. He was very appreciative and very happy. With this new agreement, I think it would take a perfect job in the perfect city in order for Eric to say he's not willing to be Ozzie's successor.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-03-21/sports/bs-sp-ravens-bisciotti-0322-20110321_1_steve-bisciotti-labor-fight-ravens-owner/3



So there's that, or we can hire Grigson. Drek was pretty high on Grigson from the Eagles. We need talent evaluators making decisions to infuse this team with talent and depth. We severely lack both right now.


4) DeCosta hires Kyle Shanahan as the new Head Coach of the Denver Broncos.


Probably should make a run at Kubes first, Kyle is a little young and I don't know if he's ready to run a team just yet, but hypothetically if this was 2013 or later, yeah I would look into it if Kyle has a good track record as OC. I would also remember the name Matt Lafleur...reminds me a lot of Kubiak.

Of course, DeCosta would likely put together a committee similar to the one the Ravens had when they hired John Harbaugh. So we could get a candidate coming out of left field as well.

5) DeCosta reacquires Jay Cutler via trade and Peyton Hillis/Tony Scheffler via free agency

No thanks. DeCosta would likely surround Burfict with some real defensive talent and bring back the Orange Crush days.


6) DeCosta hires Jim Goodman as lead consultant.

Possibly, either way DeCosta would definitely hire the best scouts available to give him detailed reports on players.


7) Shanahan names Gary Kubiak OC and Larry Coyer DC.


Not a big Coyer fan, honestly. He did well during his time here in Denver, but always gets exposed in the playoffs. As for the coaching talk, I discussed that above.


8) Finally, the "Paul D. Bowlen" name outside Dove Valley is removed

Probably more for Mike, but wouldn't it be funny to see this HUGE state of the art training complex built by Ergen and he named it Shanahan complex?

Shananahan
10-04-2011, 12:21 AM
why bring in short term solutions for what really is a long-term build job?
I haven't read beyond this point in the thread, but this quote blew my mind.

The Joker
10-04-2011, 01:25 AM
I hate recycled coaches but it's pretty clear tha Kub's is gonna get canned after this year.

The Titans are going to roll that division & Kubs will have no excuse for missing the playoffs with Manning out.

May as well give it a shot with Elway. Kubs, Wade, & Tebow.....**** it, find a spot for Reeves too.

They just completely outplayed the Steelers and their only loss so far was a nail-biter in New Orleans.

Houston should have beaten Pittsburgh by multiple scores, so many things went against them yet still they found a way to win it. They have a top 10 NFL QB, the best running game in the NFL and with Wade Phillips calling the shots on D now they look like they finally have a good defense.

They're the overwhelming favourite in that division IMO.

smoke4815162342
10-04-2011, 01:26 AM
there isnt one

ol#7
10-04-2011, 05:59 AM
I liked the Fox hire because this team needed a steady hand, that said, were not winning anything during the John Fox era. The best we can hope for is that this team improves the talent pool that McD drained. Popps can wail all he wants, but thats what we went through the last two years, and its going to take a bit to bring that back up to NFL standards. The worrying part is the team needs to also spend money in FA and failed on so many levels. There were so many pieces that would have fit in and had this team ready to compete next year and in the hunt in a bad division this year. The team didnt have to suck this bad, they are choosing to suck this bad.

Ray Finkle
10-04-2011, 06:28 AM
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/P3ALwKeSEYs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What an awesome plan. That should be our destiny.....in an ideal world.

I especially liked removing the Paul D. Bowlen name from Dove Valley....you could also add removal of all photos or references to Bowlen in the building and editing out Bowlen's image and voice from the "This one's for John" and replacing it with Shanny's on all NFL productions involving film from SB32.

I would fly to Denver to coordinate Jay's triumphant return and line the streets with rose petals to commemorate his grand return as our leader and hero.

Great job, Raj. :strong: Honestly, I was kind of in a bad mood today because one of my co-workers is out sick this week and we got dumped on us all of her hearings at the last second in addition to our regular calendar, but this post really got me into a happier mood.


Fry cooks have hearings? You learn something new every day :D

Complain all you want about Bowlen right now, he did well until the last few years running this team. Wishing him to sell could bring in someone worse (look at Dolan)....

strafen
10-04-2011, 07:20 AM
Houston is 3-1 and you think it's pretty clear that Kubes is going to get fired Hilarious!

Has assHAT EVER been right in any of his absurd oredictions?
The guy is a joke. Take him as a an assclown

HAT
10-04-2011, 07:57 AM
They're the overwhelming favourite in that division IMO.

Never said they weren't....Just that they won't win it.

HAT
10-04-2011, 07:59 AM
Houston is 3-1 and you think it's pretty clear that Kubes is going to get fired Hilarious!

Yes.

jhns
10-04-2011, 07:59 AM
Never said they weren't....Just that they won't win it.

Don't worry hat, I'm sure you'll be right about something, someday.

Rohirrim
10-04-2011, 08:02 AM
Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

Ergen is the founder Denver-based Dish Network and currently resides in Denver. He's one of the richest men in the world according to Forbes. He overpays for the team, denying Edgar Keiser from matching, in hopes of parlaying the team into national prominance. Much as Ted Turner built the Atlanta Braves on TBS, Ergen uses Dish Network as his personal platform for the Broncos. Every Broncos game available to Dish subscribers (yeah I know Directv wont allow it but it's my hypothetical gift to Jeff and Mike), a 24-7 Broncos channel and more! Ergen is an experienced, wealthy, successful businessperson perfect to own the Denver Broncos for the next quarter-century.

2) Ergen fires Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and John Fox. Reassigns John Elway as the team's official "ambassador".

Probably Mike and Jeff's favorite part of the plan. Ergen starts to rebuild the organization by trimming the fat.

3) Ergen hires Eric DeCosta as General Manager and empowers DeCosta to find team's next Head Coach.

Your welcome Jeff.

4) DeCosta hires Kyle Shanahan as the new Head Coach of the Denver Broncos.

Shanahan's staff consists heavily of coaches with ties to the Broncos organization including Alex Gibbs!

5) DeCosta reacquires Jay Cutler via trade and Peyton Hillis/Tony Scheffler via free agency

Can this plan seriously get any better?

6) DeCosta hires Jim Goodman as lead consultant.

It just did...

7) Shanahan names Gary Kubiak OC and Larry Coyer DC.

Your crying now aren't you?

8) Finally, the "Paul D. Bowlen" name outside Dove Valley is removed

The crescendo!

http://youtu.be/ZoE5kGMUpcg

bronco militia
10-04-2011, 08:19 AM
i'd keep Bowlen's name at Dove Valley

eddie mac
10-04-2011, 08:30 AM
How about we go forward instead of back???

Right now we are ****
5 years ago we were average
How about 5 years from now we aim for better than average.

AZorange1
10-04-2011, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=SoCalBronco;3317466]Plan:

1. Ride out Fox at least a couple more years so the old man doesn't have to pay 3-4 coaches at once and also because at slightly over 2m per season, its at the bottom salary tier.
2. Spend abnormally low amounts for at least another summer since the cap floor does not come into effect until 2013.
3. Squeeze all the revenue you can out of Tebowmania and when its largely gone, dump him unceremoniously.
4. Draft a QB next year somewhere in the first couple rounds to make sure people keep going to games and have something to "look forward to". There always has to be a glimmer of hope to maintain income levels.
5. Continue with cheap, superficial, gimmicky surface appeal PR tactics like orange jerseys, John Elway et al. to maintain acceptable revenue levels among casual fans without having to make significant monetary investments.[/QUOTE Enjoyed this read, as we used to say in the old days, "Right ON!"

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2011, 09:44 AM
Long term plan = Continued beatings until morale is sufficiently improved.

TheReverend
10-04-2011, 09:50 AM
Houston is 3-1 and you think it's pretty clear that Kubes is going to get fired Hilarious!

Same guy who said hands down Washington would be the worst team in the league this year, and that Orton was going to the pro bowl last year. Ha!

TheReverend
10-04-2011, 09:51 AM
Fry cooks have hearings? You learn something new every day :D

Complain all you want about Bowlen right now, he did well until the last few years running this team. Wishing him to sell could bring in someone worse (look at Dolan)....

Name something he did well outside of hiring Mike and giving him the keys?

Seriously, I've never heard anyone answer this.

jhns
10-04-2011, 09:54 AM
Name something he did well outside of hiring Mike and giving him the keys?

Seriously, I've never heard anyone answer this.

I liked that style of ownership until they started hiring incompetent people to run the show. I would rather have an owner that stays out of the way than a Jerry Jones type.

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2011, 10:03 AM
all orange unis yet still starting Orton...

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/6/6/ohwhooptyfre128572911658426386.jpg

pricejj
10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Roethlisberger isnt an elite QB. Pittsburgh winning SBs has created the perception that Roethliseberger is elite, but he's not. Playing on a team that wins a SB doesnt make you elite. Neither is Eli Manning.

Also, its very possible that your analysis of QB prospects is wrong. And besides, what would it mean if they are better than Locker? Locker hasnt done anything yet either. Saying they're better doesnt mean they should be drafted in the 1st.

Roethlisberger is hard as nails and has won 2 Super Bowls (out of 3). He decimated the Broncos in the 2005 AFCCG. He might not be the best pure passer in the game, but he is certainly one of the best QB's in the NFL.

I put an asterisk by Eli. In the playoffs, during the Giants SuperBowl run, Eli played very well, posting a 60.5% completion %, with 6 td's and 1 int.

I posted the list of 6 QB's that are better than Locker, Gabbert, and Ponder (all drafted in the top 12), to show that any of the top 6 QB's from the 2012 draft could be drafted in the top 12, and each could be considered a "franchise" guy...as they all are significantly better then last years QB's (except maybe Newton).

WolfpackGuy
10-04-2011, 11:02 AM
Name something he did well outside of hiring Mike and giving him the keys?

Seriously, I've never heard anyone answer this.

He fired Reeves and kept Elway.

gyldenlove
10-04-2011, 11:36 AM
Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

Ergen is the founder Denver-based Dish Network and currently resides in Denver. He's one of the richest men in the world according to Forbes. He overpays for the team, denying Edgar Keiser from matching, in hopes of parlaying the team into national prominance. Much as Ted Turner built the Atlanta Braves on TBS, Ergen uses Dish Network as his personal platform for the Broncos. Every Broncos game available to Dish subscribers (yeah I know Directv wont allow it but it's my hypothetical gift to Jeff and Mike), a 24-7 Broncos channel and more! Ergen is an experienced, wealthy, successful businessperson perfect to own the Denver Broncos for the next quarter-century.

2) Ergen fires Joe Ellis, Brian Xanders and John Fox. Reassigns John Elway as the team's official "ambassador".

Probably Mike and Jeff's favorite part of the plan. Ergen starts to rebuild the organization by trimming the fat.

3) Ergen hires Eric DeCosta as General Manager and empowers DeCosta to find team's next Head Coach.

Your welcome Jeff.

4) DeCosta hires Kyle Shanahan as the new Head Coach of the Denver Broncos.

Shanahan's staff consists heavily of coaches with ties to the Broncos organization including Alex Gibbs!

5) DeCosta reacquires Jay Cutler via trade and Peyton Hillis/Tony Scheffler via free agency

Can this plan seriously get any better?

6) DeCosta hires Jim Goodman as lead consultant.

It just did...

7) Shanahan names Gary Kubiak OC and Larry Coyer DC.

Your crying now aren't you?

8) Finally, the "Paul D. Bowlen" name outside Dove Valley is removed

The crescendo!

So what happens when Edgar Kaiser comes along with his right of first refusal? Fact is that unless Kaiser dies Bowlen will never be able to sell the team to anyone because we will end up with Kaiser and if you think Bowlen is a bad owner your fandom doesn't go far enough back to remember a truly awful owner.

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2011, 11:47 AM
So what happens when Edgar Kaiser comes along with his right of first refusal? Fact is that unless Kaiser dies Bowlen will never be able to sell the team to anyone because we will end up with Kaiser and if you think Bowlen is a bad owner your fandom doesn't go far enough back to remember a truly awful owner.

I don't know if Kaiser still has the right of first refusal. Bowlen and Kaiser have been fighting each other in the courts for years and I don't remember anything saying Kaiser has the legal capacity to win this battle. However I could be wrong.

TailgateNut
10-04-2011, 11:50 AM
I don't know if Kaiser still has the right of first refusal. Bowlen and Kaiser have been fighting each other in the courts for years and I don't remember anything saying Kaiser has the legal capacity to win this battle. However I could be wrong.

Legal capacity, yes. Financial ability???

24champ
10-04-2011, 11:51 AM
Complain all you want about Bowlen right now, he did well until the last few years running this team. Wishing him to sell could bring in someone worse (look at Dolan)....

Honestly, I believe Bowlen is a crappy owner. He is not involved, despite what he says, he spends most of his time in Hawaii. When you got a top 10 revenue team and are one of the lowest spending teams in the NFL...somebody is taking money out the backdoor. Hate to say it, but he is turning into Al Davis. Hiring people he feels comfortable with and not necessarily the best man for the job.

He only did well when someone else was running the show. It's not any surprise that once he fired Shanahan that this franchise nosedived soon after.

Gort
10-04-2011, 11:59 AM
Honestly, I believe Bowlen is a crappy owner. He is not involved, despite what he says, he spends most of his time in Hawaii. When you got a top 10 revenue team and are one of the lowest spending teams in the NFL...somebody is taking money out the backdoor. Hate to say it, but he is turning into Al Davis. Hiring people he feels comfortable with and not necessarily the best man for the job.

He only did well when someone else was running the show. It's not any surprise that once he fired Shanahan that this franchise nosedived soon after.

it was nosediving with Shanny.

revisit how Shanny's teams ended the 2006, 2007, and 2008 seasons.

he had worn out his welcome here. he needed a change. we needed a change. too bad that change was a paranoid little double-agent prick from NE.

HEAV
10-04-2011, 12:00 PM
I think Fox hates the young guys we have (drafted by McD) Moreno has been benched, Tebow stuck, Cox cut....

I don't know///just throwing Stuff at the wall.. I'm not happy with Fox. Hate Orton... just tired of being a joke.

TonyR
10-04-2011, 12:01 PM
Roethlisberger is hard as nails and has won 2 Super Bowls (out of 3). He decimated the Broncos in the 2005 AFCCG. He might not be the best pure passer in the game, but he is certainly one of the best QB's in the NFL.

No doubt. Anyone who doesn't think Roethlisberger is an "elite QB" is ****ing clueless and not even worth arguing with.

24champ
10-04-2011, 12:05 PM
it was nosediving with Shanny.


No it was not, we had young guys coming up and were starting hit our drafting stride...

revisit how Shanny's teams ended the 2006, 2007, and 2008 seasons.

those years are better than being a perennial top 5 drafting team.

he had worn out his welcome here. he needed a change. we needed a change. too bad that change was a paranoid little double-agent prick from NE.

Nah, Bowlen and Ellis have big egos and thought they could run the team better than Shanahan....guess what? They don't have the slightest clue what they are doing. It's publicly known that FO's around the NFL are laughing at the Broncos for their stupidity.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-04-2011, 12:26 PM
those years are better than being a perennial top 5 drafting team.





First, we're not a "perennial top 5 drafting team." Even if we draft top five again this year, it won't be perennial. It'll be a two year streak. And if this year's draft is an indication of future success, I think we're actually going to be improving year after year.

Second, those years are not better unless you actually are a player or two away like Shanahan was so fond of saying. He neglected the defense completely, had terrible players on that side of the ball. He had terrible coaching on that side of the ball. If your top line is okay to good, and your depth is ****, that's not better than getting a few years of high draft choices and building a team properly from the ground up.

The core of this team was rotting under Shanahan. There were bright spots, but things like trading three picks to move up two spots to grab jarvis ****ing moss doesn't exactly scream, "hitting our drafting stride."

I love Mike Shanahan and will forever appreciate what he gave to us. But he started to fall off in the last couple of years. I think he was burned out and needed to start fresh.

TailgateNut
10-04-2011, 12:30 PM
I think Fox hates the young guys we have (drafted by McD) Moreno has been benched, Tebow stuck, Cox cut....

I don't know///just throwing Stuff at the wall.. I'm not happy with Fox. Hate Orton... just tired of being a joke.


LOL

NUB
10-04-2011, 12:44 PM
Shanahan's offenses still produce no matter who is filling the positions. The problem with him is his crap management and inability to find a defensive coordinator. You take a solid GM over Shanahan and then hand him a defensive coordinator who doesn't suck and you will have a playoff team. There is no better gameday planner in the league, IMO.

I think his teams in 2006-2008 didn't suck. The defenses did. And his not-firing Slowik is what did him in, ultimately. Even still, it was a tremendous loss. I don't think Shanahan wore out his welcome -- I think Denver pulled the trigger on firing him one year too soon. The team has imploded offensively since he left and of course the defense is still in shambles.

John Fox, in comparison, just leaves me shaking my head so often I just can't believe he's still a head coach in this league. He should have been demoted to defensive coordinator after flaming out in Carolina like he did, but instead we scooped him right up possibly because nobody else wanted to come here, which in itself is pathetic.

Gort
10-04-2011, 12:50 PM
those years are better than being a perennial top 5 drafting team.


huh?

2006-2008: 9-7, 7-9, 8-8. losing the playoff spot in the finale against SF in 2006. choking away a 3 game lead with 3 games to go in 2008. those were brutal years. worse than being a 2-14 team from a fan's perspective. have you forgotten how awful the close of the 2008 season was? it was like being kicked in the nuts non-stop over a two week period.

gyldenlove
10-04-2011, 01:43 PM
I don't know if Kaiser still has the right of first refusal. Bowlen and Kaiser have been fighting each other in the courts for years and I don't remember anything saying Kaiser has the legal capacity to win this battle. However I could be wrong.

A court upheld the right of first refusal when Bowlen sold 10% to Elway, it was later overturned by an appeals court because the Bowlen didn't transfer 10% of the Denver Broncos but rather 10% of the company Bowlen owns that controls his shares in the Broncos - or some such.

It is possible that a similar model could be utilized again to get around the Kaiser clause in the original sales contract when Kaiser sold his 60% share to Bowlen, but I do think most judges would find it a deliberate attempt to circumvent the original contract and would nullify it.

I am not so worried about Kaiser himself, but he only needs one partner who will fund him to take over and once he does do not expect anything good to happen - he was a ****ty owner once and I doubt he has changed.

Right now Bowlen is still the lesser of 2 evils to me, at least he has previously shown a commitment to the team and to spending when it mattered.

ol#7
10-04-2011, 02:14 PM
huh?

2006-2008: 9-7, 7-9, 8-8. losing the playoff spot in the finale against SF in 2006. choking away a 3 game lead with 3 games to go in 2008. those were brutal years. worse than being a 2-14 team from a fan's perspective. have you forgotten how awful the close of the 2008 season was? it was like being kicked in the nuts non-stop over a two week period.

no,No,NO! You couldnt be more wrong, and its that kind of take that led to us firing the best coach this team will ever have.

2006 we flamed out because Jake Plummer played like a little girl because he couldnt handle having a rookie waiting in the wings and the D drove off a cliff with Al Wilsons injury.

2007 Rebuild mode, focus on a young, potent, offense.

2008 Offense rebuilt, D in bad, bad shape. Team has the picks and cap room to address this side of the ball. Most saw this team as being at the tale end of a rebuild that started with the loss in the 2005 AFCCG coming into the season.

McDisaster strikes.

pricejj
10-04-2011, 02:30 PM
John Fox, in comparison, just leaves me shaking my head so often I just can't believe he's still a head coach in this league. He should have been demoted to defensive coordinator after flaming out in Carolina like he did, but instead we scooped him right up possibly because nobody else wanted to come here, which in itself is pathetic.

Crap...you are right.

Hopefully EF&X can gather the proper talent necessary to win a Superbowl, even if not all of them will be here to see it through.

24champ
10-04-2011, 03:09 PM
First, we're not a "perennial top 5 drafting team." Even if we draft top five again this year, it won't be perennial.

Yeah we are. We severely lack depth and talent right now. It's going to be a long road back to the respectability. We are 1-3 and we're battling the Chiefs for last place in this craptastic division. It's a sad state to be in.

Second, those years are not better unless you actually are a player or two away like Shanahan was so fond of saying. He neglected the defense completely, had terrible players on that side of the ball. He had terrible coaching on that side of the ball. If your top line is okay to good, and your depth is ****, that's not better than getting a few years of high draft choices and building a team properly from the ground up.

The defense left a lot to be desired to be sure, terrible coaching? Yep. Poor depth? Yep. Are they fixable? Yep. Have they been fixed since Shanny got canned? Nope.

We can only speculate what the Goodmans would have done with that 2009 draft. I don't see how it wouldn't have been a defensive draft as opposed to the offensive draft it was.

The core of this team was rotting under Shanahan. There were bright spots, but things like trading three picks to move up two spots to grab jarvis ****ing moss doesn't exactly scream, "hitting our drafting stride."

Way to cherry pick, I will submit to you the 2006-2008 drafts.

2006

Jay Cutler- 1 Pro Bowl under Shanahan, now starter for Chicago

Tony Scheffler- Plays opposite of Pettigrew for Detroit

Brandon Marshall- 2x Pro Bowler, 1x All-Pro

Elvis Dumervil- 1 Pro Bowl selection, 1x All-Pro

Dominque Hixon- Key returner for the Giants Super Bowl run.

Chris Kuper- Still a starter for Broncos.

Greg Eslinger- typical journeyman OL.



2007

Jarvis Moss- Was slow with the Broncos, for sure but still plays in the NFL with the Raiders, has 2 sacks this season.

Tim Crowder- Had a good start with the Broncos, then petered out. Good depth player for the Bucs now.

Ryan Harris- Starter for the Broncos until injuries caught up to him.

Marcus Thomas- Still on the Broncos squad.

2008 Draft

Ryan Clady- Starts for the Broncos, 1x Pro Bowl, 2x All-Pro

Eddie Royal- Starts for the Broncos, had a great season under Shanny.

Kory Lichtensteiger- Starts for the Redskins under Shanny.

Jack Williams- Bust

Ryan Torain- Playing for the Redskins, just tore up the field in the last game.

Carlton Powell- Depth player for the Falcons.

Spencer Larsen- Starting FB for the Broncos.

Josh Barrett- Starting SS for the Patriots.

Peyton Hillis- An Orangemane legend.



So we got some pretty good value in the middle rounds, some real steals, a couple busts but every draft is going to have that. Lot of them are starters, and the sad thing is, with a few more drafts like these we could have had some real talent and depth on this team. It's unfortunate that egos get in the way with Bowlen/Ellis as they had to remove the Goodmans once Shanahan was canned and put Xanders "in charge". It is Bowlen/Ellis that is responsible for this systematic destruction of the Denver Broncos with their bean counting ways and taking money out the back door.

24champ
10-04-2011, 03:19 PM
huh?

2006-2008: 9-7, 7-9, 8-8. losing the playoff spot in the finale against SF in 2006. choking away a 3 game lead with 3 games to go in 2008. those were brutal years. worse than being a 2-14 team from a fan's perspective. have you forgotten how awful the close of the 2008 season was? it was like being kicked in the nuts non-stop over a two week period.

Call me crazy, but I like seeing the Broncos have a competitive record going into December/January.

NOT having our season virtually over in September/early October.

Atwater His Ass
10-04-2011, 03:21 PM
Say what you want about Shanahan, but every year he coached here, we were a threat to make the playoffs or actually win the Super Bowl. Every. Year.

Oh yeah, having a competitivie team sucks. This is much better.

bronco militia
10-04-2011, 03:26 PM
shanny needed to go...too bad there was no plan after "Mike, you're fired"

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-04-2011, 03:27 PM
Say what you want about Shanahan, but every year he coached here, we were a threat to make the playoffs or actually win the Super Bowl. Every. Year.

Oh yeah, having a competitivie team sucks. This is much better.

Really? We were a threat to make the playoffs EVERY year? at 7-9? at 6-10?

Hyperbole. It's what's for dinner.

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2011, 03:28 PM
Say what you want about Shanahan, but every year he coached here, we were a threat to make the playoffs or actually win the Super Bowl. Every. Year.

Oh yeah, having a competitivie team sucks. This is much better.

"a threat" to win the SB is nice. Actually winning a playoff game is nicer. Under Shanny the Broncos were stable and respectable but much of that respect was garnered because of the SB wins.

Had he just figurered out how to maintain a good defense, he'd probably have another SB ring with the Broncos. It just frustrated the hell out of me that he could always field a decent offense (which is much, much harder to build and maintain in the NFL) but he couldn't handle the defense.

why Mike? Why did you continue to shoot yourself in the foot? I've said it before and I'll say it again: Shanny the GM got Shanny the coach fired.

DrFate
10-04-2011, 04:10 PM
revisit how Shanny's teams ended the 2006, 2007, and 2008 seasons.

I'll take it over 2010, 2011, etc.

hambone13
10-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Here's the dream 24Champ/SoCal solution (which is probably very flawed but why not)...

1) Pat Bowlen sells the Denver Broncos to Charlie Ergen

Ergen is the founder Denver-based Dish Network and currently resides in Denver. He's one of the richest men in the world according to Forbes. He overpays for the team, denying Edgar Keiser from matching, in hopes of parlaying the team into national prominance. Much as Ted Turner built the Atlanta Braves on TBS, Ergen uses Dish Network as his personal platform for the Broncos. Every Broncos game available to Dish subscribers (yeah I know Directv wont allow it but it's my hypothetical gift to Jeff and Mike), a 24-7 Broncos channel and more! Ergen is an experienced, wealthy, successful businessperson perfect to own the Denver Broncos for the next quarter-century.
!

I realize this is intended to be satire but the last owner you want owning your sports team is Charlie Ergen. He's about as crazy as Al Davis. You can be sure he would fire people frequently and often. Ask any senior executive that's worked for him at Dish....you won't find many that were there more than a year or two. Seriously, the man is nuts. A few years back, after one of those crazy 3ft of snow blizzard type storms rolled through and a large percentage of his corporate staff were late, he instituted a big brother check in process at every entry way so he could track every employees hours from the top down. If you were more than 10 minutes late, more than twice, either you or your manager received notice. It was nuts. There's many stories like this but trust me, he's the last owner we'd want.

OrangeSe7en
10-04-2011, 05:05 PM
Roethlisberger is hard as nails and has won 2 Super Bowls (out of 3). He decimated the Broncos in the 2005 AFCCG. He might not be the best pure passer in the game, but he is certainly one of the best QB's in the NFL.
I put an asterisk by Eli. In the playoffs, during the Giants SuperBowl run, Eli played very well, posting a 60.5% completion %, with 6 td's and 1 int.

I posted the list of 6 QB's that are better than Locker, Gabbert, and Ponder (all drafted in the top 12), to show that any of the top 6 QB's from the 2012 draft could be drafted in the top 12, and each could be considered a "franchise" guy...as they all are significantly better then last years QB's (except maybe Newton).

And he's not elite.

Inkana7
10-04-2011, 05:40 PM
And he's not elite.

Yes he is.

Blueflame
10-04-2011, 05:43 PM
One could make a valid argument that the Steelers defense tends to make Roethlisberger's performance look somewhat better than it actually is. But football's a team sport. :)

OrangeSe7en
10-04-2011, 06:28 PM
Yes he is.

And your a buffoon who struggles to string together more than 2 sentences.

PS-No, he's not. Theres a distinction between he hand the other 5.

OrangeSe7en
10-04-2011, 06:31 PM
One could make a valid argument that the Steelers defense tends to make Roethlisberger's performance look somewhat better than it actually is. But football's a team sport. :)



This is exactly it. The Steelers defense is so consistently good that, Roethlisberger can get away with making a few isolated plays at the end to pull it out. The elite QBs consistently do more throughout the game than Roethlisberger.

With the Steelers defense, it's hard to legitimately make the claim that Roethlisberger carries the Steelers. As a matter of fact, losing Polamalu probably hurts the Steelers more as a team than losing Roethlisberger.

mhgaffney
10-04-2011, 06:43 PM
A few isolated plays are the difference between the great QBs and the also rans

I do not like "R" -- he's an asshole.

But he makes the big play in the big game. That's the diff.

Inkana7
10-04-2011, 06:45 PM
Noted good defense Baltimore disagrees with you entirely.

Gort
10-04-2011, 06:49 PM
This is exactly it. The Steelers defense is so consistently good that, Roethlisberger can get away with making a few isolated plays at the end to pull it out. The elite QBs consistently do more throughout the game than Roethlisberger.

With the Steelers defense, it's hard to legitimately make the claim that Roethlisberger carries the Steelers. As a matter of fact, losing Polamalu probably hurts the Steelers more as a team than losing Roethlisberger.

so do stats make a QB elite? or is it wins? or a combination of both? or neither?

the point is that there is no definition. it's whatever suits one's particular argument at the moment. but Rapistberger has won 2 SBs and been to a 3rd. how many QBs have a resume even remotely similar? are those guys in the HOF? would being in the HOF settle the issue? because right now, he looks like he's on that path.

gyldenlove
10-04-2011, 07:58 PM
Yes he is.

Roethlisberger has never carried a team.

In 2005: Defense was number 3 in scoring and 4 in yards. Offense was number 9 in scoring and 15 in yards.

In 2008: Defense was number 1 in scoring and 1 in yards. Offense was 22 in yards and 20 in points.

In 2010: Defense was number 1 in scoring and 2 in yards. Offense was 12 in scoring and 14 in yards.

The 3 times the Steelers have gone to the Super bowl with Roethlisberger it has been the defense carrying the team there.

3 years the Steelers didn't go to the Super bowl with Roethlisberger:

2006: Defense was 11 in scoring and 9 in yards. Offense was 12 in scoring and 7 in yards. (Did not make playoffs)

2007: Defense was 2 in scoring and 1 in yards. Offense was 9 in scoring and 17 in yards. (Made playoffs)

2009: Defense was 20 in scoring and 5 in yards. Offense was 12 in scoring and 7 in yards. (Did not make playoffs)

Do you see what determines if the Steelers make the playoffs or not? defense, Ben Roethlisberger just has to not lose games too much.

TonyR
10-04-2011, 08:15 PM
John Fox, in comparison, just leaves me shaking my head so often I just can't believe he's still a head coach in this league.

Just fyi, over the last 10 years John Fox has five times as many playoff wins as Mike Shanahan. Does that leave you shaking your head, too?

TonyR
10-04-2011, 08:20 PM
Roethlisberger has never carried a team.

Maybe not. But being an elite QB is about more than stats. It's about making plays, particularly in big momens. And he has made a lot of them over the years in leading the Steelers offense. I don't like the Steelers, and I don't like Roethlisberger. But the guy is a baller and a winner. If you can't see that then I don't know what you're watching.

Inkana7
10-04-2011, 08:22 PM
Roethlisberger has also had some of the ****tiest O-Lines in the AFC, if not the NFL, during his career. I don't care how good his defenses are. He makes plays when they need to be made, and he makes plays most QBs cannot.

That is elite.

24champ
10-04-2011, 08:46 PM
Just fyi, over the last 10 years John Fox has five times as many playoff wins as Mike Shanahan. Does that leave you shaking your head, too?

Fyi, over the last year...3-17 vs 9-11?:ouwknow:

gyldenlove
10-04-2011, 08:46 PM
Maybe not. But being an elite QB is about more than stats. It's about making plays, particularly in big momens. And he has made a lot of them over the years in leading the Steelers offense. I don't like the Steelers, and I don't like Roethlisberger. But the guy is a baller and a winner. If you can't see that then I don't know what you're watching.

Kyle Orton was a winner before he came here, does that make him a good QB?

gyldenlove
10-04-2011, 08:52 PM
Roethlisberger has also had some of the ****tiest O-Lines in the AFC, if not the NFL, during his career. I don't care how good his defenses are. He makes plays when they need to be made, and he makes plays most QBs cannot.

That is elite.

Jay Cutler makes plays most QBs cannot, that doesn't make him elite, Tim Tebow makes plays most QBs cannot, is he elite?

The Steelers have had more seasons with a top 10 rushing team than they have bottom 16 with Roethlisberger, his offensive lines haven't been that bad.

HAT
10-04-2011, 08:56 PM
Noted good defense Baltimore disagrees with you entirely.

You're making his point for him.

If Ben & Flacco swapped teams...Same results.

HAT
10-04-2011, 09:03 PM
so do stats make a QB elite? or is it wins? or a combination of both? or neither?



Neither.

To be elite, in any field, one needs to at least be in the upper 10%. In the NFL, that's top 3. Big Ben is not and has never been a top 3 NFL QB.

Is he very good? Yes. Is he elite? No.

Inkana7
10-04-2011, 09:26 PM
Jay Cutler makes plays most QBs cannot, that doesn't make him elite, Tim Tebow makes plays most QBs cannot, is he elite?

The Steelers have had more seasons with a top 10 rushing team than they have bottom 16 with Roethlisberger, his offensive lines haven't been that bad.

None of those guys come up big when their teams need it (especially Cutler) like Ben does.

Also, are you kidding me? Ben gets killed behind that horrible line. I live near Pittsburgh, everyone who watches any Pittsburgh football knows that their O-Line is maybe as bad as Jay Cutler's.

Living near the city makes me hate Pittsburgh fans and that bearded rapist as much as anyone, but you have to give the dude props. He makes elite plays when they are needed. Yeah, his team is good, but why hold that against him? No QB has ever put a team on his back entirely and won the Super Bowl.

fontaine
10-05-2011, 07:07 AM
Getting back to the OP, I don't see the long term plan being any different than what it SHOULD have been two years ago when McD over.

1. To build through the draft (especially by not making asinine decisions like moving up to draft a TE in Quinn when veteran run blocking TEs are a dime a dozen in the league)

- And we've already seen the current staff have a good draft in Miller/Franklin/Moore/TEs. I'm not saying these guys are studs (except for Miller ofcourse) but it's pretty clear when you see a player even in his rookie season and know that he can play in the league and actually hold his own and have an upside (like Franklin/Moore/Miller etc) vs a player who doesn't just look lost but makes mistakes every time he's on the field.

Next year, it's supposed to be a great and deep CB class so I can easily see us drafting at least one CB in the first day plus a veteran CB FA to provide competition.

2. Make selective FA decisions instead of just over spending on trash. I like the additions of Bunkley and McGahee not because they're doing a good job, but because the staff chose wisely and got great return for value. Any FO can spend millions on multiple players for a need (Moreno/Maroney/etc - Jarvis Green/LeKevin Smith/Williams/Bannan/NT etc) and hope it works out or something sticks because of the sheer number of players brought in, but it takes a good feel of personel evaluation to be able to just bring in a few select guys and have them pan out.

3. Keep the same system in place. Be it run blocking/the front 7 let's just try to keep the same staff/system for more than one/two years to actually develop/draft players for the long term instead of chopping and changing. Example? How much better would Ayers be right now if he hadn't spent his first two year learning/adjusting to a two point stance instead of his natural position with his hand in the dirt?

4. The rest, really is just a crapshoot at QB (Tebow /Luck/ Landry/ Jones/ Palmer/ Griffin whoever).

TonyR
10-05-2011, 07:08 AM
Kyle Orton was a winner before he came here, does that make him a good QB?

Sigh. You're completely missing the point. Are you contending that Orton has a rep of making big plays in big moments?

TonyR
10-05-2011, 07:12 AM
Jay Cutler makes plays most QBs cannot, that doesn't make him elite, Tim Tebow makes plays most QBs cannot, is he elite?


LOL Yes, clearly you're missing the point. When has Jay ****ing Cutler come up big in a big moment? I can guarantee you that if you polled FO executives and coaches around the league on who they'd rather have at QB for a big game to be played tomorrow every single one would choose Roethlisberger over Cutler. Every one. Come on, you're being silly here. When you're desperately grasping onto to Cutler to help make your arguement you know for sure you're on the wrong side of it.