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TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:20 PM
I wanna see this stupid bastard's post game presser.

Anyone willing to ask him hard questions on his ****ty team yet?

24champ
10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Gosh darn, his run game is so sophisticated!

Pendejo
10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
I wanna see this stupid bastard's post game presser.

Anyone willing to ask him hard questions on his ****ty team yet?

Dave Logan just asked him if he thought about playing either other quarterback in the fourth quarter he said, "No, and I don't think Green Bay did either."

Vine
10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
I wanna see this stupid bastard's post game presser.

Anyone willing to ask him hard questions on his ****ty team yet?


Listening on the radio, and Dave Logan stuck with positive only questions....

frerottenextelway
10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
I'm just waiting for Elway to twitter before I form an opinion on the game.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Dave Logan just asked him if he thought about playing either other quarterback in the fourth quarter he said, "No, and I don't think Green Bay did either."

W

T

F

ROFL!ROFL!ROFL!

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:24 PM
When are Tebow's escalators negated?

TheDave
10-02-2011, 04:24 PM
No matter who you are playing, 50 burgers piss people off...

Looks like the honeymoon is officially over.

Pendejo
10-02-2011, 04:24 PM
W

T

F

ROFL!ROFL!ROFL!

Perhaps I heard it wrong, but I don't think so.

Sir_Robin
10-02-2011, 04:24 PM
Fox can suck it.

24champ
10-02-2011, 04:25 PM
No matter who you are playing, 50 burgers piss people off...

Looks like the honeymoon is officially over.

I think it was over awhile ago.

Archer81
10-02-2011, 04:26 PM
When are Tebow's escalators negated?


Depends on when Denver hits 47% of their offensive snaps. So probably not until week 8 or 9.


:Broncos:

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:26 PM
No matter who you are playing, 50 burgers piss people off...

Looks like the honeymoon is officially over.

You manage 1 win against the weakest part of our schedule after renegging on playing Tebow AND promising the most sophisticated running game in the NFL, and yeah, you deserve to get ****ing slaughtered by the press.

Instead he'll get cream puff questions and plenty of free time to peruse escorts.

OrangeSe7en
10-02-2011, 04:26 PM
Listening on the radio, and Dave Logan stuck with positive only questions....

Fire Dave Logan!

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:26 PM
I already want him fired. I'm already done with him as a coach. He's just as bad as McD in every way. Keeping Orton in even when the game was clearly over was the final straw for me.

Ranger24
10-02-2011, 04:27 PM
Yeah, got to give Green bay credit though. Rogers is very very good.... and our offense sucks. Orton did have great protection for our line today.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:27 PM
What does a nine million dollar albatross around your neck feel like?

Archer81
10-02-2011, 04:27 PM
One Tebow sighting on the world's most imaginative play.

...


:Broncos:

24champ
10-02-2011, 04:28 PM
You manage 1 win against the weakest part of our schedule after renegging on playing Tebow AND promising the most sophisticated running game in the NFL, and yeah, you deserve to get ****ing slaughtered by the press.

Instead he'll get cream puff questions and plenty of free time to peruse escorts.

It's amazing considering this clown of a coach is 2-18 since last season.

GoHAM
10-02-2011, 04:28 PM
The only explanation for still playing Orton in the 4th?

Fox is hoping for Kyle to get absolutely annihilated on a sack and then the hard decision is taken out of his hands. Then Fox can claim it was an injury and not the barely mediocre play of KO that forced him to start Timmay.

Ranger24
10-02-2011, 04:28 PM
I was waiting for Tebow to go in though... thats the only reason I watched the 4th quarter

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:29 PM
Dave Logan just asked him if he thought about playing either other quarterback in the fourth quarter he said, "No, and I don't think Green Bay did either."

Jesus Christ, we have another ****ing retard as our head coach...

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:29 PM
Does Bowlen know the current date?

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:29 PM
One Tebow sighting on the world's most imaginative play.

...


:Broncos:

Not like that bullsht wasn't predictable or anything:

I honestly think that those "#15 situations" are going to be a few plays against a very stacked deck just to quiet the boo birds for next week's homecoming next week.

:/

Oh crap.

It was

go_broncos
10-02-2011, 04:30 PM
Dave Logan just asked him if he thought about playing either other quarterback in the fourth quarter he said, "No, and I don't think Green Bay did either."

Don't know what to say..

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:31 PM
Oh crap.

It was

It isn't going to work though. Next week in Denver is going to be UGLY.

GoHAM
10-02-2011, 04:31 PM
My opinion of Fox is in a severe nosedive. No one who has even casually watched football can say that Kyle Orton gives us any chance of winning, let alone the best chance. This sucks.

24champ
10-02-2011, 04:31 PM
Does Bowlen know the current date?

Naw, Bowlen is getting high and drunk off his ass in Hawaii.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:31 PM
How are you planning on losing to Minnesota?

GoHAM
10-02-2011, 04:32 PM
How are you planning on losing to Minnesota?

Start Orton?

fontaine
10-02-2011, 04:33 PM
I want Tebow to play also.

But in the 4th quarter, down by four scores, I can see why Fox wouldn't want to throw in Tebow. It was a no win situation for him.

Smilin Assassin
10-02-2011, 04:33 PM
Nope.

4 games in, I'm not gonna call for the coaches head yet. WAY to early for a team in transition.

montrose
10-02-2011, 04:34 PM
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/711018/gyi0062469547.jpg

"Miss me yet? Before you decide, I was going to play Tebow..."

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:34 PM
Start Orton?

Please explain the phrase "best chance to win."

lostknight
10-02-2011, 04:34 PM
Just watched a second of the presser. Someone asked about why they didn't use the Tebow that was such a "secret".

"We did it once, and we lost yardage, and therefore it didn't prove to be beneficial" is John Fox's official statement on Tebow.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Broncos front office and head coach. The Matt Milan led Lions are starting to look more and more like a analog for our current situation.

eddie mac
10-02-2011, 04:35 PM
When are Tebow's escalators negated?

I think they're negated around the same time as Champ'sLOL

BroncoInferno
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
When are Tebow's escalators negated?

It's got nothing to do with escalators. Fox is a stubborn traditionalist and doesn't want to be seen as folding to public pressure. That's the issue.

Kaylore
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
Nope.

4 games in, I'm not gonna call for the coaches head yet. WAY to early for a team in transition.

This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

eddie mac
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
Nope.

4 games in, I'm not gonna call for the coaches head yet. WAY to early for a team in transition.

A coaching change at this point would be a waste of money. No coach could turn this pumpkin into a carriage.

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
Just watched a second of the presser. Someone asked about why they didn't use the Tebow that was such a "secret".

"We did it once, and we lost yardage, and therefore it didn't prove to be beneficial" is John Fox's official statement on Tebow.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Broncos front office and head coach. The Matt Milan led Lions are starting to look more and more like a analog for our current situation.

Wow...just...wow...

This level of incompentency is beyond my comprehension...

TheDave
10-02-2011, 04:37 PM
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/711018/gyi0062469547.jpg

"Miss me yet? Before you decide, I was going to play Tebow..."

Yeah, 'cause when he was hear Orton looked just like Brady... ;)

Sorry boss, but just seeing him drives me to rage.

KO5K
10-02-2011, 04:37 PM
Honestly, who the **** hires the only coach who did worse than Josh ****ing McDaniels?

Fox-ball doesn't work in the modern NFL, I give this guy 2 years tops.

People kept saying how they saw massive improvements in the defense but now that we've played a good QB the defense has been exposed for the pile of **** that it is.

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:38 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

This fan base has seen enough bad coaching to know it when they see it, and bad coaching doesn't lead to any kind of rebuilding. Period.

BroncoInferno
10-02-2011, 04:38 PM
"We did it once, and we lost yardage, and therefore it didn't prove to be beneficial" is John Fox's official statement on Tebow.


Gee, Fox, you predictably ran it up the middle the one time you gave Tebow a shot and wonder why it didn't work? Think outside the box for once, damn!

KO5K
10-02-2011, 04:38 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

When you start Orton, you aren't in rebuild mode.

montrose
10-02-2011, 04:39 PM
Yeah, 'cause when he was hear Orton looked just like Brady... ;)

Sorry boss, but just seeing him drives me to rage.

Imagine what looking at a pic of Fox will do after were stuck watching this crap by December...

24champ
10-02-2011, 04:40 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

Well we've been through several rebuild phases since 2006, fans have smartened up and aren't towing the company line anymore.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:40 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

Bullshiat Khan. We have no patience for idle waiting / suck4luck.

Cleo McDowell
10-02-2011, 04:40 PM
Just watched a second of the presser. Someone asked about why they didn't use the Tebow that was such a "secret".

"We did it once, and we lost yardage, and therefore it didn't prove to be beneficial" is John Fox's official statement on Tebow.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Broncos front office and head coach. The Matt Milan led Lions are starting to look more and more like a analog for our current situation.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:41 PM
When you start Orton, you aren't in rebuild mode.

This

steeledude
10-02-2011, 04:42 PM
Just throwing this out there...

What if Tebow just isn't ready? Why throw him in too soon and ruin him? He is a QB who was described as "will need to make many adjustments to succeed in the NFL". So why put that guy out there? McD ruined this team. Now it is being rebuilt. A guy like Tebow, waiting and learning (kinda like Rodgers did), would be really beneficial in a couple of years to a rebuilding team.

Or we could throw him in next week, at best go 8-8, and most likely have a ****ty season under Tebow's belt.

Broncos4Life
10-02-2011, 04:42 PM
Wow...just...wow...

This level of incompentency is beyond my comprehension...

Dude thats what i was saying! Look where they put him in at! team wasnt even at midfield. It was like the 30 or something. WTF good was a qb draw from there supposed to accomplish????

I'm about done with his dumb ass too! His responses are just as stupid as his decisions regarding the team!

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:42 PM
Imagine what looking at a pic of Fox will do after were stuck watching this crap by December...

I won't be jerking off to McD pictures, unlike some.

yerner
10-02-2011, 04:43 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

For Real.

fontaine
10-02-2011, 04:43 PM
This fan base has seen enough bad coaching to know it when they see it, and bad coaching doesn't lead to any kind of rebuilding. Period.

WTF are you talking about?

In one offseason Fox already has had a good draft and gotten better play from the front 7 and OL than we've had for two years.

But yeah, just because he doesn't throw in Tebow in the 4th in a no win situation for him to please some fans it makes him a bad coach.

Tebow will start this year, but it would be just dumb to throw him in for mop up duty on the road in a no win situation.

Broncos4Life
10-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Just throwing this out there...

What if Tebow just isn't ready? Why throw him in too soon and ruin him? He is a QB who was described as "will need to make many adjustments to succeed in the NFL". So why put that guy out there? McD ruined this team. Now it is being rebuilt. A guy like Tebow, waiting and learning (kinda like Rodgers did), would be really beneficial in a couple of years to a rebuilding team.

Or we could throw him in next week, at best go 8-8, and most likely have a ****ty season under Tebow's belt.

Dude really?? Did you see the last 3 games of last season? GTFO.
I'd pay to see a ****ty season with Tebow any day over a ****fest of Ortonary proportions!

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Just throwing this out there...

What if Tebow just isn't ready? Why throw him in too soon and ruin him? He is a QB who was described as "will need to make many adjustments to succeed in the NFL". So why put that guy out there? McD ruined this team. Now it is being rebuilt. A guy like Tebow, waiting and learning (kinda like Rodgers did), would be really beneficial in a couple of years to a rebuilding team.

Or we could throw him in next week, at best go 8-8, and most likely have a ****ty season under Tebow's belt.

They are going to draft a QB with their top 3 pick, especially if Tebow remains a complete unknown by the end of this season.

montrose
10-02-2011, 04:44 PM
I won't be jerking off to McD pictures, unlike some.

If we're talking Laura McDaniels, count me and Hillis in!

steeledude
10-02-2011, 04:45 PM
Dude really?? Did you see the last 3 games of last season? GTFO.
I'd pay to see a ****ty season with Tebow any day over a ****fest of Ortonary proportions!

New QBs often come in and play well for a couple of games. There's no film on them. And a guy like Tebow had people guessing. You play him a long stretch and he might really struggle. Why do three good to average games make him a must play right now?

I'd rather see him here actually doing well in a couple of years instead of seeing him destroyed in the next couple of weeks.

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:45 PM
WTF are you talking about?

In one offseason Fox already has had a good draft and gotten better play from the front 7 and OL than we've had for two years.

But yeah, just because he doesn't throw in Tebow in the 4th in a no win situation for him to please some fans it makes him a bad coach.

Tebow will start this year, but it would be just dumb to throw him in for mop up duty on the road in a no win situation.

You are clueless, as is everyone who defends this pile of **** coach. Period. End of story.

MacGruder
10-02-2011, 04:45 PM
Wow...just...wow...

This level of incompentency is beyond my comprehension...

It's isn't even incompetency.. it's petty and pouting childish BS. Fox, Orton and Lloyd are made for each other...

They all need to be shipped out.. anyone else that wants to ride with Orton too..

That's what Bowlen should use to clean house. Do you want Orton to start over Tebow? "Yes" (Trap door opens, sharks with lasers await)

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:45 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

Rebuild?

What rebuild?

I thought this was about "best chance to win"?

I mean... why else would we be starting a lame duck QB in his seventh year that's going to hit FA after the season and the FO has admitted they have no interest in extending OVER OUR FIRST ROUND PICK QB?

???

Dr. Broncenstein
10-02-2011, 04:46 PM
If we're talking Laura McDaniels, count me and Hillis in!

I don't think Hillis was jerkin off.

GoHAM
10-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Second verse, same as the first...

The Broncos are smack dab in the middle of a rebuild, just like last year. Kyle Orton has no future with the Broncos. Maybe Tebow does and maybe he doesn't, the fact is he is the only QB that has any future value to the Broncos. KO walks and has no trade value, same with Quinn. As for Tebow, even if you have no future plans that include Tebow, you still have to play him. If he tears it up and you still want Luck or Barkley or whoever, then you have a valuable asset in trade up negotiations or by simply trading him. If he craps out, then you still have a valuable trade token, some coach out there loves Tebow and will blame Tebows failure on the pathetic Denver organization and will give up the same mid round pick for Tebow that we can get for him if he stays on the bench.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Well we've been through several rebuild phases since 2006, fans have smartened up and aren't towing the company line anymore.

Bullshiat Khan. We have no patience for idle waiting / suck4luck.

Those

SoCalBronco
10-02-2011, 04:47 PM
Just watched a second of the presser. Someone asked about why they didn't use the Tebow that was such a "secret".

"We did it once, and we lost yardage, and therefore it didn't prove to be beneficial" is John Fox's official statement on Tebow.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Broncos front office and head coach. The Matt Milan led Lions are starting to look more and more like a analog for our current situation.

It didn't prove to be beneficial?

You run him on a designed QB draw into the teeth of the defense....yeah that's putting him in a great position to succeed. What do you think is going to happen, coach, he's going to run through 6 guys up the middle and run for 45 yards?

See....this is what I thought would happen. They'd burn a down on an INTENTIONALLY low percentage play just to "prove" Tebow-ball wouldn't work.

Except that we're smarter than that and we know when the guy's getting sandbagged and being put in there just to lose a yard so the staff can say "See".

BroncoInferno
10-02-2011, 04:49 PM
It didn't prove to be beneficial?

You run him on a designed QB draw into the teeth of the defense....yeah that's putting him in a great position to succeed. What do you think is going to happen, coach, he's going to run through 6 guys up the middle and run for 45 yards?

See....this is what I thought would happen. They'd burn a down on an INTENTIONALLY low percentage play just to "prove" Tebow-ball wouldn't work.

Except that we're smarter than that and we know when the guy's getting sandbagged and being put in there just to lose a yard so the staff can say "See".

Unfortunately, you are right. Fox is a stubborn mule. He wants his conventional QB, and goddamnit, he is going to have him.

24champ
10-02-2011, 04:55 PM
It didn't prove to be beneficial?

You run him on a designed QB draw into the teeth of the defense....yeah that's putting him in a great position to succeed. What do you think is going to happen, coach, he's going to run through 6 guys up the middle and run for 45 yards?

See....this is what I thought would happen. They'd burn a down on an INTENTIONALLY low percentage play just to "prove" Tebow-ball wouldn't work.

Except that we're smarter than that and we know when the guy's getting sandbagged and being put in there just to lose a yard so the staff can say "See".

Fox isn't going to last past the end of next year. Book it.

fontaine
10-02-2011, 04:56 PM
So aside from Fox not throwing in Tebow in the 4th quarter game in a no win situation does anyone complaining about Fox have any other reasons to call him out?

I don't care who you are, but putting in Tebow in the 4th in that situation on the road was always going to be a dumb move.

Do it right and give him the best chance to win by preparing him all week with the first team and get him to start.

Fox has already done the basics right by improving the DL/OL play and having a good draft. The QB situation is going to depend on what Tebow does when he starts. Calling for Fox to be fired at this stage is beyond stupid.

montrose
10-02-2011, 04:56 PM
I don't think Hillis was jerkin off.

Hilarious!

Rohirrim
10-02-2011, 04:58 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

Some do. The new kids (you know, the really loud ones) don't even know what "rebuild" means.

MacGruder
10-02-2011, 04:59 PM
So aside from Fox not throwing in Tebow in the 4th quarter game in a no win situation does anyone complaining about Fox have any other reasons to call him out?

I don't care who you are, but putting in Tebow in the 4th in that situation on the road was always going to be a dumb move.

Do it right and give him the best chance to win by preparing him all week with the first team and get him to start.

Exactly.. I agree 100%

So why throw him in for one lame play then afterwards throw him under the bus?

"it wasn't just Tebow's fault"

HAT
10-02-2011, 05:00 PM
Fox can suck it.

I told y'all this last January.

Why people are surprised that John Fox is a terrible fit for the Denver Broncos is beyond me.

Hamrob
10-02-2011, 05:00 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.Sure they do. Play Tebow....and this fan base would be just fine. If Tebow can't cut it...so be it. But, Tebow signals the rebuild....not Orton.

razorwire77
10-02-2011, 05:00 PM
At this point, the team simply can't been in rebuilding mode and start Orton at the same time. It would be better to start Brady Quinn, because at least there is still the chance of development and improvement. The two positions are completely ****ing irreconcilable. Fox needs to evaluate young skill position guys like Tebow, Ball, Decker, Bey Bey Thomas when he gets back, Julius Thomas (if he can stay on the field) etc. There is no real evaluation needed for Orton.

Ranger24
10-02-2011, 05:01 PM
New QBs often come in and play well for a couple of games. There's no film on them. And a guy like Tebow had people guessing. You play him a long stretch and he might really struggle. Why do three good to average games make him a must play right now?

I'd rather see him here actually doing well in a couple of years instead of seeing him destroyed in the next couple of weeks.

he did not get any first team reps all season so they pretty much even out.... its like when people say in preseason he was doing it against 3rd stringers... he was also doing it WITH 3rd stringers.

Hamrob
10-02-2011, 05:02 PM
The real question is this:

If we lose to the Chuggers at home....do you bench Orton and start Tebow? That would give Tebow 2-weeks to get ready for a road start in Miami! That is the best possible scenario for him and for the Broncos.

razorwire77
10-02-2011, 05:02 PM
Sure they do. Play Tebow....and this fan base would be just fine. If Tebow can't cut it...so be it. But, Tebow signals the rebuild....not Orton.

Such a simple concept and yet the entire front office, and the majority of the sports pundits don't get it.

SoCalBronco
10-02-2011, 05:03 PM
Fox isn't going to last past the end of next year. Book it.

I dunno 24, the old man isn't going to pay 4 coaches at once, or even 3 coaches at once. No matter what happens, they are going to stick with this staff for at least 2-3 seasons for financial reasons, alone.

fontaine
10-02-2011, 05:03 PM
Exactly.. I agree 100%

So why throw him in for one lame play then afterwards throw him under the bus?

"it wasn't just Tebow's fault"

Who the hell knows? Maybe they saw something on the field they didn't like on the Tebow play, maybe they saw Orton get the hot hand (momentarily) when the offense scored on those two drives?

The point is to give the QB the best chance to succeed and that wasn't going to happen by putting in Tebow in the 4th quarter.

Archer81
10-02-2011, 05:04 PM
New QBs often come in and play well for a couple of games. There's no film on them. And a guy like Tebow had people guessing. You play him a long stretch and he might really struggle. Why do three good to average games make him a must play right now?

I'd rather see him here actually doing well in a couple of years instead of seeing him destroyed in the next couple of weeks.


Tebow has had three. Under your brilliant scenario, there would be no benefit to sit Tebow because "defenses will know what he does". Also, if they dont know by now...then they probably should not be coaching.

:Broncos:

HAT
10-02-2011, 05:05 PM
Rebuild?

What rebuild?

I thought this was about "best chance to win"?

I mean... why else would we be starting a lame duck QB in his seventh year that's going to hit FA after the season and the FO has admitted they have no interest in extending OVER OUR FIRST ROUND PICK QB?

???

Because old men coaches still getting recycled through the NFL will always take that route.....Every single time.

Elway did what he had to do by hiring said recycled coach and the fan base lapped it up. Now Fox is doing what he has to do and people are upset?

???

fontaine
10-02-2011, 05:05 PM
The real question is this:

If we lose to the Chuggers at home....do you bench Orton and start Tebow? That would give Tebow 2-weeks to get ready for a road start in Miami! That is the best possible scenario for him and for the Broncos.

Regardless of what happens at the home game, Tebow has to start after the bye.

Orton is done.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:06 PM
New QBs often come in and play well for a couple of games. There's no film on them. And a guy like Tebow had people guessing. You play him a long stretch and he might really struggle. Why do three good to average games make him a must play right now?

I'd rather see him here actually doing well in a couple of years instead of seeing him destroyed in the next couple of weeks.

Why don't you go ahead and throw in some examples of rookie QBs that really caught DC's off guard because "there was no film on them"

?

I'll wait right here, so take your time, man.

24champ
10-02-2011, 05:06 PM
I dunno 24, the old man isn't going to pay 4 coaches at once, or even 3 coaches at once. No matter what happens, they are going to stick with this staff for at least 2-3 seasons for financial reasons, alone.

The old man is not going to have a choice, and secondly McD has been bought out. How the **** are these clowns going to explain away their shiatty record? How is Fox going to explain having a few 2 or 3 win seasons in a row? This applies to Xanders as well and I cannot WAIT to see what kind of excuses that ****head has cooked up in the offseason.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:07 PM
Because old men coaches still getting recycled through the NFL will always take that route.....Every single time.

Elway did what he had to do by hiring said recycled coach and the fan base lapped it up. Now Fox is doing what he has to do and people are upset?

???

"What has he has to do"?

Gtfo and start more Orton to the pro bowl threads.

HAT
10-02-2011, 05:07 PM
The real question is this:

If we lose to the Chuggers at home....do you bench Orton and start Tebow? That would give Tebow 2-weeks to get ready for a road start in Miami! That is the best possible scenario for him and for the Broncos.

Where the **** have you been?

This was always going to be the case.

HAT
10-02-2011, 05:09 PM
"What has he has to do"?

Gtfo and start more Orton to the pro bowl threads.

Swing and a miss Rev.....

Fox was a TERRIBLE hire...Spin it any which way you want.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:09 PM
Oh Jesus ****ing Christ:

Just watched a second of the presser. Someone asked about why they didn't use Tebow.

"We did it once, and we lost yardage, and therefore it didn't prove to be beneficial" is John Fox's official statement on Tebow.


I'm not a "firefox" guy but definitely thinking of making the switch away from Chrome.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:10 PM
Swing and a miss Rev.....

Fox was a TERRIBLE hire...Spin it any which way you want.

Never did I claim he was qualified.

Never have I bought the myth that John Fox was a good football coach. Not even in 2004.

But your post was nonsense. This is NOT "what he HAS to do"

Archer81
10-02-2011, 05:11 PM
I expected Denver to lose today. The matchup was not exactly in our favor...but to tell everyone you have a Tebow package...that consisted of 1 play used at the wrong time, and then refuse to bring Tebow back in because the brilliant playcall lost a yard. Logic and reason is getting butt****ed at Dove Valley. Not a single reason Fox or Elway gave during TC and PS has held up.

I really doubt we see Tebow after the bye. Not the way this FO and coaching staff does things. Heaven forbid we actually play players with the most talent.


:Broncos:

rbackfactory80
10-02-2011, 05:11 PM
Tebow needs to start and give the entire team a boost next week at home versus a division rival.

DarkHorse30
10-02-2011, 05:13 PM
I think they threw the year away before they started...because Denver was/is THAT bad. Since Orton wasn't traded, he's just a placeholder until the O-line functions well enough to start a rook. That may not be this year.

Meanwhile, having Doom and DJ back was great, and watching the defense is so much better this year than last year. Yes, they still make mistakes in coverage, but that is going to happen because of inexperience playing together.

All in all, I expected Denver to get killed today and they were. The one weird difference this year is that I'm on the redzone for our offense this year and actually enjoying watching our defense. Yes the D gave up some long passes, but look who we've got in our secondary...of course they will give up big plays, but that was against the champs in their house. What would you expect from our bad team? Badness.....and some good.

Is it Fox's fault? No. Should he have designed plays for Tebow? Not in the middle of the field....only goalline. But, I think that is more McCoy than Fox. I think Fox let's his coordinators coordinate.

HAT
10-02-2011, 05:19 PM
Never did I claim he was qualified.

Never have I bought the myth that John Fox was a good football coach. Not even in 2004.

But your post was nonsense. This is NOT "what he HAS to do"

Yes....It is exactly what HE has to do. You don't hire old man recycled coaches and expect them to make waves.

I get exactly why Elway hired him.....Polar opposite of McD and all. It kept you lemmings happy for an off season.

Fox is just parroting Elway....Take the safe route until there is no other alternative. I don't blame Fox at all.....99% of HC's would do the exact same thing.

broncogary
10-02-2011, 05:24 PM
I expected Denver to lose today. The matchup was not exactly in our favor...but to tell everyone you have a Tebow package...that consisted of 1 play used at the wrong time, and then refuse to bring Tebow back in because the brilliant playcall lost a yard. Logic and reason is getting butt****ed at Dove Valley. Not a single reason Fox or Elway gave during TC and PS has held up.

I really doubt we see Tebow after the bye. Not the way this FO and coaching staff does things. Heaven forbid we actually play players with the most talent.


:Broncos:

The truth by someone who should know. :sunshine:

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:24 PM
Yes....It is exactly what HE has to do. You don't hire old man recycled coaches and expect them to make waves.

I get exactly why Elway hired him.....Polar opposite of McD and all. It kept you lemmings happy for an off season.

Fox is just parroting Elway....Take the safe route until there is no other alternative. I don't blame Fox at all.....99% of HC's would do the exact same thing.

Playing the incumbent starter that the fans want is NOT making waves.

Playing the guy you had on the trading block a day earlier that the fan base ****ing abhors IS making waves.

maher_tyler
10-02-2011, 05:25 PM
So aside from Fox not throwing in Tebow in the 4th quarter game in a no win situation does anyone complaining about Fox have any other reasons to call him out?

I don't care who you are, but putting in Tebow in the 4th in that situation on the road was always going to be a dumb move.

Do it right and give him the best chance to win by preparing him all week with the first team and get him to start.

Fox has already done the basics right by improving the DL/OL play and having a good draft. The QB situation is going to depend on what Tebow does when he starts. Calling for Fox to be fired at this stage is beyond stupid.

As much as i am starting to dislike Fox, i agree with this post. I doubt Tebow sees full time duties until after the bye. With the dumb ass comments he keeps spewing out of his pie hole, i'm guessing we'll have to be out of playoff contention before he makes the switch! :unamused:

steeledude
10-02-2011, 05:26 PM
Tebow has had three. Under your brilliant scenario, there would be no benefit to sit Tebow because "defenses will know what he does". Also, if they dont know by now...then they probably should not be coaching.

:Broncos:

You miss the point, though I'm not surprised. You sit Tebow now and work on his mechanics so when he does go in, he has a freakin' chance.

Drek
10-02-2011, 05:26 PM
I think they threw the year away before they started...because Denver was/is THAT bad. Since Orton wasn't traded, he's just a placeholder until the O-line functions well enough to start a rook. That may not be this year.
Have you listened to how this organization talks about Tebow?

They don't want him. They'd get rid of him in a second if they could cover it from a PR standpoint. They'll never give him a real shot. Its going to be Orton as long as possible and then maybe Quinn.

Their exit strategy is becoming painfully clear. Draft a QB in the first next year, shove him down the fan's throats as the "QB of the Future" while they dump Tebow for pennies on the dollar.

For the sake of the Broncos winning we all might as well hope we land Luck, because if we don't its going to be anyone else at QB in the first round. Doesn't matter if the guy is a unanimous 2nd rounder. Grab him in the top 10 (where we will be picking) and scream about him being the "future" as loudly as possible. I'm sure Klis and co. will gladly organize the pep rallies for them.

LRtagger
10-02-2011, 05:30 PM
This team has been getting blown out by good QBs for years. No reason to think this day was going to be any different....especially with cassius yawn starting. No QB on our roster is capable of keeping pace with what Rogers did today. Time to play Timbo and see if we need to spend next years first on a qb or cb. At his point efx needs to start evaluating current players and planning for next year. Playing Tebow does that plus it keeps the fanbase off their ass for the rest of the year.

Archer81
10-02-2011, 05:30 PM
You miss the point, though I'm not surprised. You sit Tebow now and work on his mechanics so when he does go in, he has a freakin' chance.


You are wrong, of course. But its cute to watch you pretend to know what you are talking about.


:Broncos:

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:30 PM
Have you listened to how this organization talks about Tebow?

They don't want him. They'd get rid of him in a second if they could cover it from a PR standpoint. They'll never give him a real shot. Its going to be Orton as long as possible and then maybe Quinn.

Their exit strategy is becoming painfully clear. Draft a QB in the first next year, shove him down the fan's throats as the "QB of the Future" while they dump Tebow for pennies on the dollar.

For the sake of the Broncos winning we all might as well hope we land Luck, because if we don't its going to be anyone else at QB in the first round. Doesn't matter if the guy is a unanimous 2nd rounder. Grab him in the top 10 (where we will be picking) and scream about him being the "future" as loudly as possible. I'm sure Klis and co. will gladly organize the pep rallies for them.

We WILL get Luck.

HAT
10-02-2011, 05:35 PM
This defense has been losing to all QBs for years.

FYP

Ratboy
10-02-2011, 05:37 PM
I really believe we were forced to hire John Fox due to the lack of interest in the HC position.

Who wants to take over a team in such bad condition? The only one would be John Fox, the only coach with a worst record.

Gort
10-02-2011, 05:37 PM
See....this is what I thought would happen. They'd burn a down on an INTENTIONALLY low percentage play just to "prove" Tebow-ball wouldn't work.


they put Tebow in for 1 play, on 1st down from the Broncos 27 in the 1st quarter.

if you are going to throw away a down on purpose just to prove you're smarter than the fans, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better time to do it.

i used to think Fox was as dumb as a box of rocks. i now think the rocks are smarter.

Gort
10-02-2011, 05:38 PM
Have you listened to how this organization talks about Tebow?

They don't want him. They'd get rid of him in a second if they could cover it from a PR standpoint. They'll never give him a real shot. Its going to be Orton as long as possible and then maybe Quinn.

Their exit strategy is becoming painfully clear. Draft a QB in the first next year, shove him down the fan's throats as the "QB of the Future" while they dump Tebow for pennies on the dollar.

For the sake of the Broncos winning we all might as well hope we land Luck, because if we don't its going to be anyone else at QB in the first round. Doesn't matter if the guy is a unanimous 2nd rounder. Grab him in the top 10 (where we will be picking) and scream about him being the "future" as loudly as possible. I'm sure Klis and co. will gladly organize the pep rallies for them.

you sir, can read the future!

Rabb
10-02-2011, 05:39 PM
For the sake of the Broncos winning we all might as well hope we land Luck

I feel really dirty, and am sure I will get called many names for admitting it but I found myself thinking after the game today...

"well, at least KC won"

Although, I think if we are anywhere close to #1 (wherever 4-5 wins gets us) that EFX will trade the farm for Luck.

Actually I think I am personally to blame for all of this. After almost 8 years of being on the season ticket waiting list, I got them last year. I can only gather that I started all of this.

HAT
10-02-2011, 05:39 PM
I really believe we were forced to hire John Fox due to the lack of interest in the HC position.

Who wants to take over a team in such bad condition? The only one would be John Fox, the only coach with a worst record.

Koetter....

McDman
10-02-2011, 05:44 PM
I already want him fired. I'm already done with him as a coach. He's just as bad as McD in every way. Keeping Orton in even when the game was clearly over was the final straw for me.

And we officially have our new JHNS of the board!

Drek
10-02-2011, 05:45 PM
We WILL get Luck.

But at what cost? Two firsts? Two seconds as well? All that and what little elite talent we might have on our roster?

How will all the "Elway and Fox knows best, Tebow isn't a real QB" people feel when we empty the 2012 and 2013 draft classes plus Royal, Tebow, and Woodyard?

Because Elway would give all of that and more if that was what he needed to get Luck. This FO's attitude towards the young former 1st rounder on our roster makes it quite clear they've got an agenda outside of rebuilding with the guys we have at QB right now.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:46 PM
But at what cost? Two firsts? Two seconds as well? All that and what little elite talent we might have on our roster?

How will all the "Elway and Fox knows best, Tebow isn't a real QB" people feel when we empty the 2012 and 2013 draft classes plus Royal, Tebow, and Woodyard?

Because Elway would give all of that and more if that was what he needed to get Luck. This FO's attitude towards the young former 1st rounder on our roster makes it quite clear they've got an agenda outside of rebuilding with the guys we have at QB right now.

If we continue down this road, there won't even be a ****ing cost Ha!

McDman
10-02-2011, 05:52 PM
You are clueless, as is everyone who defends this pile of **** coach. Period. End of story.

Outstanding rebuttal of well made points. You sir should be on the debate team!

McDman
10-02-2011, 05:55 PM
Exactly.. I agree 100%

So why throw him in for one lame play then afterwards throw him under the bus?

"it wasn't just Tebow's fault"

I think by the time they had another situation to throw him in there was no point. When we were still in the game Orton was playing very well and didn't have an incompletion for awhile, no reason to pull Orton when he was doing well.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 06:01 PM
Outstanding rebuttal of well made points. You sir should be on the debate team!

Let's be real... how are those good points?

I don't see a SINGLE fact surrounding any of them.

NUB
10-02-2011, 06:08 PM
At least Von Miller is a beast.

Drek
10-02-2011, 06:13 PM
If we continue down this road, there won't even be a ****ing cost Ha!
That is clearly management's hope.

Simple Jake
10-02-2011, 06:19 PM
I love how Flynn gets in at the end of the game and not Tebow.. so we can see one more play of Orton locking onto the primary reciever for that play 100% and throwing it to him no matter what the coverage is, of course resulting in a pick

ColoradoDarin
10-02-2011, 06:25 PM
I love how Flynn gets in at the end of the game and not Tebow.. so we can see one more play of Orton locking onto the primary reciever for that play 100% and throwing it to him no matter what the coverage is, of course resulting in a pick

Even Phil Simms was talking about how Orton was locking onto one guy.

elsid13
10-02-2011, 06:27 PM
I'm not calling to fire Fox or anyone in the front office because I think they are attempt to establish a solid foundation. But I do wish we got Jim Harbaugh and his staff. I like how they are establishing a power running WCO offense and solid 3/4.

rugbythug
10-02-2011, 06:47 PM
But at what cost? Two firsts? Two seconds as well? All that and what little elite talent we might have on our roster?

How will all the "Elway and Fox knows best, Tebow isn't a real QB" people feel when we empty the 2012 and 2013 draft classes plus Royal, Tebow, and Woodyard?

Because Elway would give all of that and more if that was what he needed to get Luck. This FO's attitude towards the young former 1st rounder on our roster makes it quite clear they've got an agenda outside of rebuilding with the guys we have at QB right now.

2 firsts 3 firsts, 5 firsts. would not really matter if he turns into Elway or Manning. Problem is we won't loose as many games as the worst team. Thus it is a mute point. First pick is luck and he will stay there.

Rabb
10-02-2011, 06:49 PM
2 firsts 3 firsts, 5 firsts. would not really matter if he turns into Elway or Manning. Problem is we won't loose as many games as the worst team. Thus it is a mute point. First pick is luck and he will stay there.

what an incredibly stupid post

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 06:56 PM
what an incredibly stupid post

It's not his Ghostbusters thread, but it's up there.

McDman
10-02-2011, 07:02 PM
Let's be real... how are those good points?

I don't see a SINGLE fact surrounding any of them.

I think we had a good draft, certainly better than anything we've had for awhile.

Our O and D lines are improving and I think by the end of the year they will be much better.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 07:09 PM
I think we had a good draft, certainly better than anything we've had for awhile.

Our O and D lines are improving and I think by the end of the year they will be much better.

I also think we a good draft ...but there's zero supporting evidence cited for anything that literally CAN be supported statistically...

Steve Sewell
10-02-2011, 07:17 PM
We got raped by the defending SB champs at their place against the best QB in the NFL.

Did people actually expect a different outcome?

DarkHorse30
10-02-2011, 07:28 PM
We WILL get Luck.

Yup....because Minnesota will pick before us and they already chose their QBOTF Ponder in the first this year. They'll take a DT, instead

Vegas_Bronco
10-02-2011, 07:30 PM
49 points...

I'd say we were out-coached in every aspect today. I don't think this clubhouse should ever have the words 'rebuild' in them...you never see that BS coming from the top teams in the NFL. They continue to take advantage of every opportunity that they are given...or they do what is needed to create the opportunity.

I get that we are in the first year of a coaching staff and that we had basically no training camp - I appreciate the effort that the front office made in bringing in some new talent...was it an amazing job?...no, but it was much better than some other teams did.

We have to build on the positive aspects of the game - this in no way should be settling for mediocrity. IT truly is amazing to me to see the difference between these two teams today. I only caught the 2nd half...and realized, we have the wrong coaching calls series after series today...whether this was the gameplan or not...who knows. But the truth is, Fox and Orton both are in this for the paycheck...and that sums up their commitment.

OABB
10-02-2011, 07:30 PM
We got raped by the defending SB champs at their place against the best QB in the NFL.

Did people actually expect a different outcome?

Yeah, im not sure what people expected either. I was surprised to see a flea flicker, but everything else went exactly as i figured.

Oh well...go broncos.

hambone13
10-02-2011, 07:33 PM
W

T

F

ROFL!ROFL!ROFL!

I'm not sure how to take it but I'm sure it will be something along the lines of, "I thought Orton had the chance to keep us in the game when we were down by 30+ in the 4th. His team leadership is so exemplary that even Tebow was willing to go score another touchdown for GB, just so Orton could prove it was possible."

Rabb
10-02-2011, 07:35 PM
Yeah, im not sure what people expected either. I was surprised to see a flea flicker, but everything else went exactly as i figured.

Oh well...go broncos.

I will tell you what I would like to expect every week and that's a team that can compete every week.

Not a team where I should expect us to lose and be ok with it.

It's sad that we are in this spot, I can't even make fun of my Bills or Raiders fan friends anymore.

OABB
10-02-2011, 08:08 PM
I will tell you what I would like to expect every week and that's a team that can compete every week.

Not a team where I should expect us to lose and be ok with it.

It's sad that we are in this spot, I can't even make fun of my Bills or Raiders fan friends anymore.

At least its getting rid of borton quicker than if we were barely losing...the inevitable is coming soon at least.

The boos will be electric next week. It will be hard for efx to ignore it. I may fly out just to boo.

The age of orton...almost over. Thank christ.

Broncoman13
10-02-2011, 08:15 PM
Orton may get booed coming out of the tunnel!

broncocalijohn
10-02-2011, 08:17 PM
I already want him fired. I'm already done with him as a coach. He's just as bad as McD in every way. Keeping Orton in even when the game was clearly over was the final straw for me.

Could it be that his choice would be Quinn at QB for the 4th quarter and that would start the march and burning of Dove Valley?

barryr
10-02-2011, 08:41 PM
Watching the Packer offense line up the same way all game and the Bronco defense not able to do anything brought back memories of the last few years of inept defensive play when you know what is coming and you still can't stop it. Receivers open all over the field all game long.

extralife
10-02-2011, 09:42 PM
You realize that everyone predicted this team to suck. That you all thought we'd be bad this year. Now the team is bad, and it is time to fire the new coach.

barryr
10-02-2011, 09:45 PM
You realize that everyone predicted this team to suck. That you all thought we'd be bad this year. Now the team is bad, and it is time to fire the new coach.

I am not calling for Fox to be gone, but I think many of us expected at least a better defense at least but today was too much like it has been the last few years. It looked like the Packers were playing a simple scrimmage out there. Embarrassing!

Kaylore
10-02-2011, 09:49 PM
They were the superbowl champions and we have zero depth at corner. They spread us out and ate us alive. Not excusing it, but just explaining it. In Green Bay, against that team I wasn't totally shocked.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 09:57 PM
They were the superbowl champions and we have zero depth at corner. They spread us out and ate us alive. Not excusing it, but just explaining it. In Green Bay, against that team I wasn't totally shocked.

You need to have a surface to have depth.

Durango
10-02-2011, 10:07 PM
I guess we just should start cycling head coaches until we find a good one, because clearly that has worked so very well for Oakland.

Better yet, start a weekly fan poll about which QB to start and what plays to run. We could win hamburgers and stuff. Yum.

Pony Boy
10-02-2011, 10:16 PM
You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shiat.

Gort
10-02-2011, 10:17 PM
You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shiat.

McDonald's does.

Rolandftw
10-02-2011, 10:17 PM
Even though I generally defend Fox's decision to start Orton, his answers at the post game press conference weren't very good.

When asked why he didn't put another QB in, he claimed Orton needed the practice. Further elaborated and said, that he needed practice in their system.

Why do coaches believe this crap? Very, very rarely does a system turn a player into a star player especially at the QB position--particularly when that player's a long time veteran.

As mentioned by other posters, his answers for why Tebow only had one play wasn't very good either. It just reinforces the view that Fox doesn't really believe Tebow can be a good QB.

I do think he should have got some time for Tebow in the 4th quarter, as they would have got a better look at him. At the same time, I can see why they didn't go that route. Playing Tebow, against a defense that had the game well in hand could only feed the fan view that Orton needs to be benched for Tebow.

Gort
10-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Even though I generally defend Fox's decision to start Orton, his answers at the post game press conference weren't very good.

When asked why he didn't put another QB in, he claimed Orton needed the practice. Further elaborated and said, that he needed practice in their system.

Why do coaches believe this crap? Very, very rarely does a system turn a player into a star player especially at the QB position--particularly when that player's a long time veteran.

As mentioned by other posters, his answers for why Tebow only had one play wasn't very good either. It just reinforces the view that Fox doesn't really believe Tebow can be a good QB.

I do think he should have got some time for Tebow in the 4th quarter, as they would have got a better look at him. At the same time, I can see why they didn't go that route. Playing Tebow, against a defense that had the game well in hand could only feed the fan view that Orton needs to be benched for Tebow.

maybe hiring Fox was an elaborate comedy bit... like the ones Andy Kaufman used to dream up. if our next coach looks like this, we'll know we've been had.

http://www.wallyontheweb.com/tonyc_pix/clifton.jpg

strafen
10-02-2011, 10:26 PM
McDonald's does.

ROFL!^5

NFLBRONCO
10-02-2011, 10:30 PM
49 points...

I'd say we were out-coached in every aspect today. I don't think this clubhouse should ever have the words 'rebuild' in them...you never see that BS coming from the top teams in the NFL. They continue to take advantage of every opportunity that they are given...or they do what is needed to create the opportunity.

I get that we are in the first year of a coaching staff and that we had basically no training camp - I appreciate the effort that the front office made in bringing in some new talent...was it an amazing job?...no, but it was much better than some other teams did.

We have to build on the positive aspects of the game - this in no way should be settling for mediocrity. IT truly is amazing to me to see the difference between these two teams today. I only caught the 2nd half...and realized, we have the wrong coaching calls series after series today...whether this was the gameplan or not...who knows. But the truth is, Fox and Orton both are in this for the paycheck...and that sums up their commitment.

Best team vs one of the worst teams giving up 49 pts shouldn't surprise anyone.

MacGruder
10-02-2011, 10:33 PM
Even though I generally defend Fox's decision to start Orton, his answers at the post game press conference weren't very good.



I get the impression Fox thinks he should have a grace period.. and that as the season goes on the team will get better.

That's a really big gamble that Orton is going to get better... If it doesn't pan out then what is the plan? Fans have been waiting for Orton to pan out forever and nothing changes.

Pseudofool
10-02-2011, 10:44 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.I disagree. I think the fan base would tolerate losing with Tebow, because they could actually witness something that looks like a rebuild, rather than whatever it is we have going on. Smart people are romanticizing mediocrity for rebuilding, because it flatters their fandom and supposed longsightedness.

The win-now mentality is FO directed as much as the fans. You don't go into a season with Quinn and Orton on teh last years of their contract when you have a first-round QB on the bench if you wanna rebuild. That Tebow would be ruined by playing is complete BS.

In true rebuild, we probably don't resign Champ or Dawkins and we trade Orton, Lloyd, and acquire and players with lots of talent and youth. Maybe it means we win a game or fewer less, but at least the coaching staff would have a lot better idea 'what they have' or 'who people are'...

smoke4815162342
10-02-2011, 10:58 PM
dont know if this link is in here or not but here it the presser

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Broncos-vs-Packers-Fox/77439c20-9262-48e8-ac4e-332fb816463a

The Joker
10-02-2011, 11:40 PM
Really disappointing comments from Fox, either he's lying through his teeth or else he really believes that the offense looked good out there.

Either way, it's depressing.

Maximus
10-02-2011, 11:58 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

Well if they enough screaming goes on. Your donks will send a reminder of what happened in Oakland only worse. We always had talent at every position. The donks don't have that right now. Shanarat gone... McDonkey... Gone... Fox Gone... ****ty drafts by shanarat, compounded by McDonkey gutting the team. Then the removal of a coach who can stabilize and bring a different mentality. What coach would want to come to dungver and deal with the BS. Ever hear that before?

I have the popcorn ready ROFL!

maven
10-03-2011, 12:23 AM
I really believe we were forced to hire John Fox due to the lack of interest in the HC position.

Who wants to take over a team in such bad condition? The only one would be John Fox, the only coach with a worst record.

That's total BS. 32 teams in the NFL. The cream of the crop job in all of football.

maven
10-03-2011, 12:28 AM
But at what cost? Two firsts? Two seconds as well? All that and what little elite talent we might have on our roster?

How will all the "Elway and Fox knows best, Tebow isn't a real QB" people feel when we empty the 2012 and 2013 draft classes plus Royal, Tebow, and Woodyard?

Because Elway would give all of that and more if that was what he needed to get Luck. This FO's attitude towards the young former 1st rounder on our roster makes it quite clear they've got an agenda outside of rebuilding with the guys we have at QB right now.

If Denver doesn't have the 1st pick, they will be near it. Which will allow for a swap of 1st round picks. If John wants Luck, and has the opportunity to grab Luck, he's going to throw everything at it.

Rolandftw
10-03-2011, 12:55 AM
I get the impression Fox thinks he should have a grace period.. and that as the season goes on the team will get better.

That's a really big gamble that Orton is going to get better... If it doesn't pan out then what is the plan? Fans have been waiting for Orton to pan out forever and nothing changes.

Well, I do think he likely has a grace period. The team was in shambles when he got here and he likely needs a few drafts before we can judge the team too much. I still think the division stinks, and I wouldn't expect to see Tebow until much later in the season, if at all. The team does likely get better as the season progresses.. especially the young guys.

My objection is with the idea that Orton needs practice in a blow out, in order to get better in his system. I don't think either Orton playing or Tebow playing was going to do a whole lot for either of their developments. It would have fed the QB controversy fire tho.

ol#7
10-03-2011, 01:31 AM
I disagree. I think the fan base would tolerate losing with Tebow, because they could actually witness something that looks like a rebuild, rather than whatever it is we have going on. Smart people are romanticizing mediocrity for rebuilding, because it flatters their fandom and supposed longsightedness.

The win-now mentality is FO directed as much as the fans. You don't go into a season with Quinn and Orton on teh last years of their contract when you have a first-round QB on the bench if you wanna rebuild. That Tebow would be ruined by playing is complete BS.

In true rebuild, we probably don't resign Champ or Dawkins and we trade Orton, Lloyd, and acquire and players with lots of talent and youth. Maybe it means we win a game or fewer less, but at least the coaching staff would have a lot better idea 'what they have' or 'who people are'...

This...I am ok with keeping some of the vets like Champ, Dawkins while going through the transition, especially since there is nobody else there, but we do have a 1st round QB on the bench, and not getting him in during that second half is sheer stupidity. Hell its the only reason I kept watching. Getting blasted by the Pack is no suprise, well maybe ot Blart it was, but its failing to see what we have in Tebow that is so damn frustrating.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-03-2011, 01:45 AM
That's total BS. 32 teams in the NFL. The cream of the crop job in all of football.

No it's not. Think about who we interviewed... anyone even worth mentioning?

How many coaches do you think want to come work for a VP/GM that has absolutely no experience at what he's doing?

Does Bowlen have deep pockets? Is willing to spend?

Let's not even begin with the fan base (in general) and Tebow...

This job isn't as valuable as it once was.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-03-2011, 01:47 AM
If Denver doesn't have the 1st pick, they will be near it. Which will allow for a swap of 1st round picks. If John wants Luck, and has the opportunity to grab Luck, he's going to throw everything at it.

As sad as it sounds, we are not nearly as bad as some people think. There are much worse teams out there right now.

Hulamau
10-03-2011, 02:11 AM
Just throwing this out there...

What if Tebow just isn't ready? Why throw him in too soon and ruin him? He is a QB who was described as "will need to make many adjustments to succeed in the NFL". So why put that guy out there? McD ruined this team. Now it is being rebuilt. A guy like Tebow, waiting and learning (kinda like Rodgers did), would be really beneficial in a couple of years to a rebuilding team.

Or we could throw him in next week, at best go 8-8, and most likely have a ****ty season under Tebow's belt.

Shhhh!! you're gonna really scare some of these guys with such a rationale perspective!

fontaine
10-03-2011, 03:11 AM
Not surprised by the knee jerk reactions around here.

Fox has done a pretty good job from the draft to starting the rebuild on our OL/DL. A job that's been pending for the last five years.

But yeah, just because he doesn't throw Tebow to the wolves in a meaningless 4th quarter in a no win situation people are calling for his head.

Fox hasn't created any of the current problems on this roster from the lack of depth at CB, to the QB mess he's inherited.

The real challenge will come when Tebow starts and how Fox/McCoy build an offense to maximize his strengths and hide his many weakenesses.

fontaine
10-03-2011, 03:40 AM
Now, if you want to criticize Fox for three blown coverages (Dawkins/Vilhite) then I'm all for that. Fox should be criticized for the STs screwup on that on side kick.

Individual players will always make mistakes in execution but it's the coaches job to get all players prepared and on the same page in terms of assignments and schemes.

Drek
10-03-2011, 04:07 AM
But yeah, just because he doesn't throw Tebow to the wolves in a meaningless 4th quarter in a no win situation people are calling for his head.

Fox hasn't created any of the current problems on this roster from the lack of depth at CB, to the QB mess he's inherited.

You have a clear "perception v. reality" issue going on here so let me clarify.

In the off-season there are these two different phases where you can improve your team. They're called "the draft" and "free agency". This new regime did zero to improve cornerback play in either phase. Literally didn't draft one and literally didn't sign one as a FA. This despite Champ always being hurt, Goodman being visibly over the hill, and everyone else on the roster effectively being a UDFA. Never mind the bounty of very good CBs who were available this off-season.

In short, this management did not view CB as a problem going in, therefore the issues we have at CB are entirely their own fault. They were happy with cast offs as their CB depth and so should not be surprised that they have received cast off level play.

But with Tebow they've chosen to bury him down the depth chart for an average on his best days journeyman QB on his last contract year. Then when asked about Tebow they respond in an incredibly dismissive fashion and continue to do everything in their power to keep him from being used in valid situations.

There is no protecting Tebow, only protecting themselves from having to play him.

The FO is running a massive snow job on the fans when it comes to actually fixing this team. They claim there is a big mess to fix from the previous regime when in fact there is a big mess to fix because of ownership's failures for the last 5 years. They want the leeway given a rebuilding team but insist on playing stop gaps at QB, SS, WR#1, CB#2, RB#1, and signed one for DT#1 before he got hurt.

Thats right, our two biggest FA moves were signing stop gap over the hill players at RB and DT. Not adding some young depth in this historically young FA market.

In short, they're trying to effect a quick turnaround, not a slow and dedicated rebuild. But a key part of their strategy is selling out to procure their heart's desire, Andrew Luck, assuming he will be a Peyton Manning meets John Elway transcendent player and solve all their problems.

We're the guy on the verge of bankruptcy who buys a hooker, a bottle of rotgut vodka, and two dozen lottery tickets with the last of his cash.

fontaine
10-03-2011, 05:23 AM
You have a clear "perception v. reality" issue going on here so let me clarify.

In the off-season there are these two different phases where you can improve your team. They're called "the draft" and "free agency". This new regime did zero to improve cornerback play in either phase. Literally didn't draft one and literally didn't sign one as a FA. This despite Champ always being hurt, Goodman being visibly over the hill, and everyone else on the roster effectively being a UDFA. Never mind the bounty of very good CBs who were available this off-season.

In short, this management did not view CB as a problem going in, therefore the issues we have at CB are entirely their own fault. They were happy with cast offs as their CB depth and so should not be surprised that they have received cast off level play.



Yeah, I'm sure the FO/x just decided to go into the season with crappy CBs. That MUST be it, because FA CBs solve everything right?

Did you turn deaf when Fox/Elway and co stressed that the most important thing was to improve the run defense/OL play? But yeah it MUST be my perception that they didn't magically improve every single unit in a weak team with limited $$$ available.


But with Tebow they've chosen to bury him down the depth chart for an average on his best days journeyman QB on his last contract year. Then when asked about Tebow they respond in an incredibly dismissive fashion and continue to do everything in their power to keep him from being used in valid situations.

There is no protecting Tebow, only protecting themselves from having to play him.

The FO is running a massive snow job on the fans when it comes to actually fixing this team. They claim there is a big mess to fix from the previous regime when in fact there is a big mess to fix because of ownership's failures for the last 5 years. They want the leeway given a rebuilding team but insist on playing stop gaps at QB, SS, WR#1, CB#2, RB#1, and signed one for DT#1 before he got hurt.

Thats right, our two biggest FA moves were signing stop gap over the hill players at RB and DT. Not adding some young depth in this historically young FA market.

In short, they're trying to effect a quick turnaround, not a slow and dedicated rebuild. But a key part of their strategy is selling out to procure their heart's desire, Andrew Luck, assuming he will be a Peyton Manning meets John Elway transcendent player and solve all their problems.

We're the guy on the verge of bankruptcy who buys a hooker, a bottle of rotgut vodka, and two dozen lottery tickets with the last of his cash.

So Pat Bowlen's unwillingness to spend $$$ is the FO/Fox's fault. Great. Excellent thinking.

How again is this Fox's fault then?

ol#7
10-03-2011, 05:30 AM
Yeah, I'm sure the FO/x just decided to go into the season with crappy CBs. That MUST be it, because FA CBs solve everything right?

Did you turn deaf when Fox/Elway and co stressed that the most important thing was to improve the run defense/OL play? But yeah it MUST be my perception that they didn't magically improve every single unit in a weak team with limited $$$ available.




So Pat Bowlen's unwillingness to spend $$$ is the FO/Fox's fault. Great. Excellent thinking.

How again is this Fox's fault then?

Oh I dont know, how about drafting a CB instead of the two TE's we took?

Im not seeing were you are seeing improvement. So we have hung with some terrible teams early in the season. This team looks even less disciplined than what McD trotted out, bad gameplans on both sides and headscratching decision making.

fontaine
10-03-2011, 05:43 AM
Oh I dont know, how about drafting a CB instead of the two TE's we took?

Im not seeing were you are seeing improvement. So we have hung with some terrible teams early in the season. This team looks even less disciplined than what McD trotted out, bad gameplans on both sides and headscratching decision making.

Sure, we could have drafted a CB but TE was also a need. The point is we had a lot of needs this offseason starting with the trenches and they said that was the priority.

I guess they figured with Von Miller/Ayers/Doom back they would have enough pass rush and Champ on one side to cover that weakeness.

I'm seeing improvement in how our front 7 (for the most part) actually play to their assignment instead of being blowing off the line of scrimmage and RBs destroying us at will.

1. We already do a better job at sealing the edge, and our DTs penetrating, keeping our LBers free to make tackles.

2. Outside of the first game we're not getting dominated by RBs.

3. The OL is doing a much better job in the run game and look very very good in pass protection without a prototype blocking TE.

I fully understand that we've still got key weakenesses in the secondary, QB, etc positions. It's just until we improve the trenches it won't matter what we do in those other positions.

Ray Finkle
10-03-2011, 05:48 AM
Sure, we could have drafted a CB but TE was also a need. The point is we had a lot of needs this offseason starting with the trenches and they said that was the priority.

I guess they figured with Von Miller/Ayers/Doom back they would have enough pass rush and Champ on one side to cover that weakeness.

I'm seeing improvement in how our front 7 (for the most part) actually play to their assignment instead of being blowing off the line of scrimmage and RBs destroying us at will.

1. We already do a better job at sealing the edge, and our DTs penetrating, keeping our LBers free to make tackles.

2. Outside of the first game we're not getting dominated by RBs.

3. The OL is doing a much better job in the run game and look very very good in pass protection without a prototype blocking TE.

I fully understand that we've still got key weakenesses in the secondary, QB, etc positions. It's just until we improve the trenches it won't matter what we do in those other positions.

well written, I agree.

Let's say Tebow is not ready and you throw him in the mix and he's reduced to Dave Carr like. It will do nothing but help him to sit until he is ready, not just because QB Sloth isn't a starting QB.

ol#7
10-03-2011, 06:14 AM
Sure, we could have drafted a CB but TE was also a need. The point is we had a lot of needs this offseason starting with the trenches and they said that was the priority.

I guess they figured with Von Miller/Ayers/Doom back they would have enough pass rush and Champ on one side to cover that weakeness.

I'm seeing improvement in how our front 7 (for the most part) actually play to their assignment instead of being blowing off the line of scrimmage and RBs destroying us at will.

1. We already do a better job at sealing the edge, and our DTs penetrating, keeping our LBers free to make tackles.

2. Outside of the first game we're not getting dominated by RBs.

3. The OL is doing a much better job in the run game and look very very good in pass protection without a prototype blocking TE.

I fully understand that we've still got key weakenesses in the secondary, QB, etc positions. It's just until we improve the trenches it won't matter what we do in those other positions.

OK, but they doubled down in the FA market by signing Fells.

They have looked better against the run on occasion, but McFadden still had a field day. I think the jury is out, Cinci, GB and Tenn arent running on anybody, it may just be that Tenn isnt up to snuff this year.

Our running game is being helped by having a marginal RB take the carries. McGahee is 100times the back slowshon is. Which leads me to the belief that is was our RB's and not so much the line the last couple of years. Notice that slowshon still cant do anything.

You state that we are improved in the trenches and then it still wont matter what else we do because of the gaping holes in the trenches, which is it?

jhns
10-03-2011, 06:24 AM
Fox doesn't play the players that have proven to be the best. He makes in game calls that are so bad, most high school coaches wouldn't screw them up. It is pretty easy to see that he is a ****ty coach that got by with the great talent his GM brought in at his last stop. He lost a lot when talent went away. This is something great coaches don't do. Shanahan has coached a lot of years and never had the top pick. He took over a four win team and still didn't come close to the top pick. This franchise is in trouble as I doubt we fire Fox any time soon.

fontaine
10-03-2011, 06:41 AM
well written, I agree.

Let's say Tebow is not ready and you throw him in the mix and he's reduced to Dave Carr like. It will do nothing but help him to sit until he is ready, not just because QB Sloth isn't a starting QB.

Well, I want Tebow to start with at least a full week of prep and having more plays designed for his strengths. Not by choice but because we need to know where he's at in his development so that he can work on those areas of weakness and Orton is playing like a rookie QB anyway.

I do think Tebow plays better than he practices, but to start criticizing Fox/Elway over this QB mess when they just inherited the problem is insane.

It was a no win situation for Fox and FO. Even if they stupiditly had reworked the entire offense and handed the reigns over to Tebow at the risk of splitting the locker room the same fans would be crying about how Fox put Tebow in an impossible situation with a crappy team and has destroyed his development.

jhns
10-03-2011, 06:44 AM
Well, I want Tebow to start with at least a full week of prep and having more plays designed for his strengths. Not by choice but because we need to know where he's at in his development so that he can work on those areas of weakness and Orton is playing like a rookie QB anyway.

I do think Tebow plays better than he practices, but to start criticizing Fox/Elway over this QB mess when they just inherited the problem is insane.

It was a no win situation for Fox and FO. Even if they stupiditly had reworked the entire offense and handed the reigns over to Tebow at the risk of splitting the locker room the same fans would be crying about how Fox put Tebow in an impossible situation with a crappy team and has destroyed his development.

Yeah! It is insane to question a coach that refuses to play a player that has proven he is far more productive than the guy they go with!

Drek
10-03-2011, 07:08 AM
Yeah, I'm sure the FO/x just decided to go into the season with crappy CBs. That MUST be it, because FA CBs solve everything right?

Did you turn deaf when Fox/Elway and co stressed that the most important thing was to improve the run defense/OL play? But yeah it MUST be my perception that they didn't magically improve every single unit in a weak team with limited $$$ available.
They addressed the run defense by trading for a guy still on his rookie contract and what? Signing a >30, >300 pounds, >12 months out of the game 3-4 DE? Great solutions.

And their fix for the OL was drafting a 2nd round RT to start and nothing else. Not exactly real commitment to excellence there either.

You act like they've completely overhauled other aspects of this team when they didn't touch 90% of the roster McDaniels left them.

So Pat Bowlen's unwillingness to spend $$$ is the FO/Fox's fault. Great. Excellent thinking.
By spending what little resources they had like ****.

The FO was obviously money strapped because Bowlen is a cheap ****. But that being the case why did you 1. assume you could fix DT in FA and do nothing for the position in the draft, 2. bring back Orton at $9M for this season, 3. spend what little FA cache you have almost entirely on a retread RB and a broke down 3-4 DE?

Richard Marshall, a capable 26 year old corner left Carolina and signed a one year deal with Arizona this off-season. Why didn't he sign here? He's worlds better than every corner we have not named Champ Bailey.

Simple moves like that were passed up. Mebane was allowed to go back to Seattle for $1M more a year than we gave Ty Warren. Our second big DL "signing" was bringing Marcus Thomas back.

You can't play this off as the current regime inheriting **** when they went out of their way to spend more money to keep much of that same **** around.

maher_tyler
10-03-2011, 07:53 AM
Oh I dont know, how about drafting a CB instead of the two TE's we took?

Im not seeing were you are seeing improvement. So we have hung with some terrible teams early in the season. This team looks even less disciplined than what McD trotted out, bad gameplans on both sides and headscratching decision making.

We get a better QB and better pass D and we're much better than last year. I'm not saying i agree completly with what Fox is doing, mainly the QB debacle. However, i've seen improvments on the oline and dline. We're much better running the ball. Willis has looked good. Moreno is done in Denver after this year. Maybe he's more suited for a zone blocking system. He dances around way to much. Look at Philly, talent all over the place but the O and Dlines. Games are won and lost in the trenches. They're 1-3. It's to bad we have a QB that averages 2 turnovers per game. We don't have the talent on O, mainly at QB, to over come multiple TOs.

Edit: Didn't Elway state we were going to build through the draft?? Why is it such a surprise we didn't make many moves in free agency?? Again, look at Philly..1-3, prime example why making a number of FA moves doesn't always work.

Pseudofool
10-03-2011, 09:54 AM
This...I am ok with keeping some of the vets like Champ, Dawkins while going through the transition, especially since there is nobody else there, but we do have a 1st round QB on the bench, and not getting him in during that second half is sheer stupidity. Hell its the only reason I kept watching. Getting blasted by the Pack is no suprise, well maybe ot Blart it was, but its failing to see what we have in Tebow that is so damn frustrating.But if money is really an issue you don't resign Champ and Dawkins, especially if Tebow's escalators are keeping him on the bench.

gyldenlove
10-03-2011, 10:05 AM
They addressed the run defense by trading for a guy still on his rookie contract and what? Signing a >30, >300 pounds, >12 months out of the game 3-4 DE? Great solutions.

And their fix for the OL was drafting a 2nd round RT to start and nothing else. Not exactly real commitment to excellence there either.

You act like they've completely overhauled other aspects of this team when they didn't touch 90% of the roster McDaniels left them.


By spending what little resources they had like ****.

The FO was obviously money strapped because Bowlen is a cheap ****. But that being the case why did you 1. assume you could fix DT in FA and do nothing for the position in the draft, 2. bring back Orton at $9M for this season, 3. spend what little FA cache you have almost entirely on a retread RB and a broke down 3-4 DE?

Richard Marshall, a capable 26 year old corner left Carolina and signed a one year deal with Arizona this off-season. Why didn't he sign here? He's worlds better than every corner we have not named Champ Bailey.

Simple moves like that were passed up. Mebane was allowed to go back to Seattle for $1M more a year than we gave Ty Warren. Our second big DL "signing" was bringing Marcus Thomas back.

You can't play this off as the current regime inheriting **** when they went out of their way to spend more money to keep much of that same **** around.

So you would want them to draft how many RTs, DTs and CBs? where do we get these imaginary draft choices from if I may ask?

I guess this is a case of the grass always being greener on the other side. Marshall is no better than Goodman, when in Carolina he was targeted a lot because he is soft in coverage the fact that his own HC who drafted him didn't want any piece of him says a ton. Mebane has been just outstanding, he played on a crap defense last year and he is playing on a crap defense this year, they give up more rushing yards than we do and they have fewer sacks - tell me again how he is such a stud.

Cito Pelon
10-03-2011, 10:43 AM
All I know is I don't know WTF is going on. I've been saying since 1999 the Broncos will rule again, but . . . . Well, we'll see what the club looks like next year.

Drek
10-03-2011, 11:06 AM
So you would want them to draft how many RTs, DTs and CBs? where do we get these imaginary draft choices from if I may ask?

I guess this is a case of the grass always being greener on the other side. Marshall is no better than Goodman, when in Carolina he was targeted a lot because he is soft in coverage the fact that his own HC who drafted him didn't want any piece of him says a ton. Mebane has been just outstanding, he played on a crap defense last year and he is playing on a crap defense this year, they give up more rushing yards than we do and they have fewer sacks - tell me again how he is such a stud.

Are you a halfwit or something?

I'm not saying they could fix all these issues through the draft. But knowing that we were looking at one of the best DT drafts in recent history it might not have been a bad idea to grab one. Or knowing how thin we are at CB why not draft one of those? Instead we've got two receiving TEs while signing a vet to play over them in FA and drafted two safeties even though we've retained one starter at safety and have the previous regime's draft pick playing more than this new regime's own second safety choice.

We could easily have added more versatility to our draft class. But we chose not to. I'm fine with that if its BPA, just make sure to address those issues come FA.

Then we go into FA and do absolutely nothing for the big holes we'd left over from the draft.

I'm not advocating Marshall in particular. But he played for Fox in Carolina, likely an easy sell to come here, and has been in a similar defense before. He's only 26 and yes, he's WORLDS ****ing better than Goodman. If you don't know that you're a ****ing idiot.

I'd have preferred Jonathan Joseph who signed a fairly low cost (<$10M per) deal with the Texans. I say low cost because Joseph is a young, elite corner. Easily the 2nd best CB in this FA crop behind Asomougha and likely at this point comparable to Champ. He's making very close to what we're paying Orton. We obviously spent our $9M better than Houston did though.

I'm also not advocating Mebane in particular, but this FO was. He was the big DT they brought in after ignoring Cofield and before even talking with Jenkins. But they failed to sign him while he takes an incredibly reasonable deal to stay in Seattle. Shortly after word gets out that it wasn't a home town discount, we just didn't offer that much.

I also love the completely illogical, half-assed attempt to discredit Mebane based on what his ****ty team has done the last two years. Never mind that this very same staff you're trying to defend wanted him or that anyone with real insight into the game has been calling him one of the hidden underrated guys in the league for several years now.

gyldenlove
10-03-2011, 12:27 PM
Are you a halfwit or something?

I'm not saying they could fix all these issues through the draft. But knowing that we were looking at one of the best DT drafts in recent history it might not have been a bad idea to grab one. Or knowing how thin we are at CB why not draft one of those? Instead we've got two receiving TEs while signing a vet to play over them in FA and drafted two safeties even though we've retained one starter at safety and have the previous regime's draft pick playing more than this new regime's own second safety choice.

We could easily have added more versatility to our draft class. But we chose not to. I'm fine with that if its BPA, just make sure to address those issues come FA.

Then we go into FA and do absolutely nothing for the big holes we'd left over from the draft.

I'm not advocating Marshall in particular. But he played for Fox in Carolina, likely an easy sell to come here, and has been in a similar defense before. He's only 26 and yes, he's WORLDS ****ing better than Goodman. If you don't know that you're a ****ing idiot.

I'd have preferred Jonathan Joseph who signed a fairly low cost (<$10M per) deal with the Texans. I say low cost because Joseph is a young, elite corner. Easily the 2nd best CB in this FA crop behind Asomougha and likely at this point comparable to Champ. He's making very close to what we're paying Orton. We obviously spent our $9M better than Houston did though.

I'm also not advocating Mebane in particular, but this FO was. He was the big DT they brought in after ignoring Cofield and before even talking with Jenkins. But they failed to sign him while he takes an incredibly reasonable deal to stay in Seattle. Shortly after word gets out that it wasn't a home town discount, we just didn't offer that much.

I also love the completely illogical, half-assed attempt to discredit Mebane based on what his ****ty team has done the last two years. Never mind that this very same staff you're trying to defend wanted him or that anyone with real insight into the game has been calling him one of the hidden underrated guys in the league for several years now.

No, but it seems one of certainly is.

So you are pissed because we didn't fix the problems you wanted fixed (CD, DT and RT) and instead addressed other problems (LB, TE and S). If you think we could have gotten an RT, CB or DT in the 4th, 5th or 7th round round who could have made even a bit of difference this year you are outright delusional. Who should we have started at S isntead of Moore? Mcbath? who has been in the league for 2 years and haven't played through an entire season yet and hasn't shown even an ounce of defensive ability, or do you want Bruton out there who is not even a good backup?

So you complain that we only drafted 1 RT, yet you want us to draft many different positions?

So you are telling me that in a market where a good CB can get more than 10 million per year, not a single GM in the league (despite several teams being desperate for DB depth) wanted to give Marshall a decent contract despite him being so amazing? and you think I am a moron?

If you weren't advocating for Mebane then why bring him up? he was one of several DTs who were brought in, and ultimately his price was too high for what he brings. Mebane has never been and will never be anything more than a mediocre DT on a bad team, sadly for Seattle he is now a 5 million dollars a year mediocre DT on a bad team. Despite playing in the weakest division in football, the Seahawks haven't been a top 10 team in run defense once while he has been there.

You have to face facts my little friend, this team was not very good and it was never going to be very good, the only thing we would have achieved by giving out oversized contracts in the offseason would be to hamstring the ability of the team of the actually move on.

Let Detroit and Oakland be a lesson to you, you do not turn around a bad team by signing huge FA contracts, who turn it around by adding talent in the draft and building from within.

TheChamp24
10-03-2011, 12:42 PM
I have a feeling Fox is going to only coach this team for 2-3 years.

Dedhed
10-03-2011, 12:44 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

We would if there we took a rebuilding attitude, but that's the complete opposite of what this staff has used as the rationale for the majority of there decisions.

I think most people would be far more patient if we were 1-3 with Tebow, because then, at least you could use "rebuilding" as the rationale.

You can't both start Orton and say we're in a rebuilding phase.

Taco John
10-03-2011, 12:58 PM
This fan base has no patience for a rebuild. None.

When we start to rebuild, I think the fans will have paience. It doesn't feel like a rebuild when Orton is the quarterback. It feels like John Fox is just out there coaching McDaniel's team, plus a couple of rookies on defense.

zdoor
10-03-2011, 12:59 PM
When we start to rebuild, I think the fans will have paience. It doesn't feel like a rebuild when Orton is the quarterback. It feels like John Fox is just out there coaching McDaniel's team, plus a couple of rookies on defense.

This

Dedhed
10-03-2011, 01:02 PM
When we start to rebuild, I think the fans will have paience.

Why the hellfire would we be waiting to rebuild?

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-03-2011, 01:04 PM
what happened with Ty Warren pretty much sums up the Broncos FO and management. They really deserved it.

TheDave
10-03-2011, 01:05 PM
When we start to rebuild, I think the fans will have paience. It doesn't feel like a rebuild when Orton is the quarterback. It feels like John Fox is just out there coaching McDaniel's team, plus a couple of rookies on defense.

There was next to no offseason... Would you spend a bunch of money replacing plyers that the coaching staff has never even spoken too? Obviously from a fan perspective you would but as a business owner would you spend significant capital replacing resources you know little about (other than they were poorly coached) with a high water mark of an 8-8 record.

As a fan it isn't fun to think of but I'll bet it is a lot closer to reality than we want to admit.

I understand the Tebow angle, but unfortunately this is primarily McD's old team.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-03-2011, 01:08 PM
When we start to rebuild, I think the fans will have paience. It doesn't feel like a rebuild when Orton is the quarterback. It feels like John Fox is just out there coaching McDaniel's team, plus a couple of rookies on defense.

Seriously? McDaniels team?

Let's be honest, our offensive talent is there. Lloyd, Decker, Royal, Willis, DT can easily be a WR squad in the SB.

The fans of Denver HAVE no patience... I really don't think you can sit here and deep down believe that.

Bad things happen when you purposely suck...

Play2win
10-03-2011, 01:10 PM
I have a feeling Fox is going to only coach this team for 2-3 years.

So, instead of having a Defensive Coordinator Carousel...

We now have a Head Coach Carousel...

Good Show!

Drek
10-03-2011, 01:11 PM
No, but it seems one of certainly is.
And yet you show a complete inability to read the written word.

So you are pissed because we didn't fix the problems you wanted fixed (CD, DT and RT) and instead addressed other problems (LB, TE and S).
You can address a problem position without using two draft picks and some FA budget on its something like TE and S, FYI. And its not about fixing the problems I wanted fixed, its about fixing the major problems this team has, not ignoring them nearly completely and instead blowing our wad on ancillary bull****.

If you think we could have gotten an RT, CB or DT in the 4th, 5th or 7th round round who could have made even a bit of difference this year you are outright delusional.
Except there are 4th, 5th, adn 7th rounders all over the league contributing right now. The FO used the same excuse for RB. Helu looks pretty damn good in Washington, I'd take him over McGahee. Drake Nevis is looking good for Indy, he went in the late 3rd, could have easily maneuvered up to get him.

And you can pretty easily assume that any corner we would have taken would be better than the UDFAs we're forced to play now.

Who should we have started at S isntead of Moore? Mcbath? who has been in the league for 2 years and haven't played through an entire season yet and hasn't shown even an ounce of defensive ability, or do you want Bruton out there who is not even a good backup?
Did I say we shouldn't have drafted Moore? But if you draft Moore and assume he's a starter why use a 4th on another safety if you're sticking with Dawkins? And FYI, the other safety from the previous regime I referenced was Bruton, who is spelling Dawkins while Carter sits his ass on the bench.

So you complain that we only drafted 1 RT, yet you want us to draft many different positions?
My complaint was that the new regime's idea on how to fix the OL was only drafting a single RT. How do you possibly get me wanting us to draft more out of that? How about signing a few veterans instead of having our 2nd and 3rd teams be indistinguishable scrubs? Mawae, Gurode, Gaither, I could go on but those are just the guys who sat out in FA for a while. Mawae is still there. Meanwhile the minute we lose one of our starters on the OL we go from "bad" to "worst OL in the league" territory. Young, inexperienced starters with absolutely zero depth behind them is not how you address the OL. It got the previous dude fired, you'd think we would know better.

So you are telling me that in a market where a good CB can get more than 10 million per year, not a single GM in the league (despite several teams being desperate for DB depth) wanted to give Marshall a decent contract despite him being so amazing? and you think I am a moron?
Again, you are a ****ing moron. Marshall isn't amazing, he's average and he's 26. Which makes him a significant upgrade over Goodman in both categories because Goodman is an old, slow scrub. Hence why a low cost 26 year old corner should have been the least of what we could accomplish in FA.

If you weren't advocating for Mebane then why bring him up? he was one of several DTs who were brought in, and ultimately his price was too high for what he brings. Mebane has never been and will never be anything more than a mediocre DT on a bad team, sadly for Seattle he is now a 5 million dollars a year mediocre DT on a bad team. Despite playing in the weakest division in football, the Seahawks haven't been a top 10 team in run defense once while he has been there.
Sure. mediocre DT despite most people actually involved with the NFL considering him one of the better 4-3 DTs. But obviously the current management here knows better. Oh wait, no they don't because he was our top FA target. We were just too damn poor to give him a real starter's contract.

$5M is nothing by NFL standards. We're paying Orton almost twice that. We're paying Ty Warren $1M less to eat twinkies.

You have to face facts my little friend, this team was not very good and it was never going to be very good, the only thing we would have achieved by giving out oversized contracts in the offseason would be to hamstring the ability of the team of the actually move on.
How in the hell is $5M a year for a starting DT oversized? Its a ****ing STEAL. ~$10M for an elite corner is also a steal because just a few years ago those guys were getting $14M. The market over corrected this off-season and we sat on our thumbs.

Let Detroit and Oakland be a lesson to you, you do not turn around a bad team by signing huge FA contracts, who turn it around by adding talent in the draft and building from within.
Oakland has multiple guys they picked up from outside the organization on their team. Seymour and Wimbley are hands down their two best defensive players, both came from other teams.

Detroit also happens to start Kyle Van Den Bosch, Stephen Tulloch, Corey Williams, Nate Burleson, Eric Wright, Chris Houston, Justin Durant, Justin Peterman, and Rob Sims from FA and/or trades. Didn't draft a one of them.

6 of their 11 defensive starters were brought from elsewhere. 2 of their 5 starters on the OL were. Their #2 WR as well as their #2 TE (Scheffler) and #2 HB (Harrison) were all from other teams.

Van Den Bosch, Tulloch, and Burleson all signed healthy but market appropriate contracts by the way. Not one of them is a world beater, but they are all solid producers. Kind of like what we could have done with Mebane. Or Cofield. Or Kirk Morrison. Or a host of other guys this off-season.

Thanks for proving my point though. The only team in NFL history to go 0-16 turned itself around with in three seasons by drafting 7 starters and acquiring another 9 through FA.

So why exactly should the Broncos completely ignore one entire aspect of team building again?

Taco John
10-03-2011, 01:12 PM
Why the hellfire would we be waiting to rebuild?

Hell if I know. Why do you think?

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-03-2011, 01:12 PM
There was next to no offseason... Would you spend a bunch of money replacing plyers that the coaching staff has never even spoken too? Obviously from a fan perspective you would but as a business owner would you spend significant capital replacing resources you know little about (other than they were poorly coached) with a high water mark of an 8-8 record.

As a fan it isn't fun to think of but I'll bet it is a lot closer to reality than we want to admit.

I understand the Tebow angle, but unfortunately this is primarily McD's old team.

Who would you want to replace on "primarily" McD's old team?

QB, RB, SS, MLB (even though Joe Mays is not supposed to be a starter)...?

This excuse of McD's old team is just bull**** and gives the fans something more to to bitch about.

These same people talking about Fox coaching McD's old team would not give McD a pass for coaching Shanahan's old team...

The irony.

Dedhed
10-03-2011, 01:15 PM
Hell if I know. Why do you think?

I have no idea. It's a large reason why this has been so frustrating.

TheDave
10-03-2011, 01:16 PM
Who would you want to replace on "primarily" McD's old team?

QB, RB, SS, MLB (even though Joe Mays is not supposed to be a starter)...?

This excuse of McD's old team is just bull**** and gives the fans something more to to b**** about.

These same people talking about Fox coaching McD's old team would not give McD a pass for coaching Shanahan's old team...

The irony.

Let me guess... another AlphaSierra/MacGruder ID

Taco John
10-03-2011, 01:16 PM
Seriously? McDaniels team?

Let's be honest, our offensive talent is there. Lloyd, Decker, Royal, Willis, DT can easily be a WR squad in the SB.

The fans of Denver HAVE no patience... I really don't think you can sit here and deep down believe that.

Bad things happen when you purposely suck...


I don't have any idea what point you are trying to make. Can someone make any sense of what this guy is saying?

Taco John
10-03-2011, 01:17 PM
Let me guess... another AlphaSierra/MacGruder ID

It's a unique IP. Might be the real article. I've tried for find a link, but to no avail.

TheDave
10-03-2011, 01:18 PM
It's a unique IP. Might be the real article. I've tried for find a link, but to no avail.

For better or worse... Tebow brings out some unique ones. ;D

s0phr0syne
10-03-2011, 01:20 PM
Just saw that Philly just re-signed Derek Landri....you're telling me that he's been available this WHOLE time and with our issues at DT (and everywhere else) that we honestly believe we have better DTs (let alone other players on our entire roster) that are better than him?? ?? ?? ??

TheDave
10-03-2011, 01:22 PM
Just saw that Philly just re-signed Derek Landri....you're telling me that he's been available this WHOLE time and with our issues at DT (and everywhere else) that we honestly believe we have better DTs (let alone other players on our entire roster) that are better than him?? ?? ?? ??

Beside the Raiders game... Has the D-Line been a problem?

DrFate
10-03-2011, 01:34 PM
It doesn't feel like a rebuild when Orton is the quarterback.

I felt this was a very insightful comment, so I replied just to see it again ^5

Drek
10-03-2011, 01:34 PM
When we start to rebuild, I think the fans will have paience. It doesn't feel like a rebuild when Orton is the quarterback. It feels like John Fox is just out there coaching McDaniel's team, plus a couple of rookies on defense.

This is the single best post I've ever seen you make Taco. Its succinctly captures the essence of this debate.

As long as you insist on starting Orton you pretend we have a chance on Sundays. If that is the myth you want to perpetuate don't be surprised when fans are pissed after losses.

When you acknowledge that this team needs a lot of work and commit to youth in all its forms (draft and FA) then the fans will recognize it as the rebuild this franchise has needed for years now and give you the leeway to match.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-03-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't have any idea what point you are trying to make. Can someone make any sense of what this guy is saying?

the point I'm trying to make? Do you have trouble reading?

did you see where I quoted you?

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-03-2011, 01:38 PM
Let me guess... another AlphaSierra/MacGruder ID

... is there a reason you bolded those positions?

Drek
10-03-2011, 01:46 PM
It's a unique IP. Might be the real article. I've tried for find a link, but to no avail.

Proxies are pretty cheap nowadays Taco, FYI.

TheChamp24
10-03-2011, 02:15 PM
So, instead of having a Defensive Coordinator Carousel...

We now have a Head Coach Carousel...

Good Show!

Honestly, I was never excited about Fox. His team last year went 1-15 for crying out loud and he has a career record of around .500.
There weren't many options though in the market.

And yeah, this team should actually look at rebuilding instead of doing the patchwork thing Shanahan did.

TheReverend
10-03-2011, 02:25 PM
Proxies are pretty cheap nowadays Taco, FYI.

I'll bet they're even cheaper in Mexico.

Just sayin...

fontaine
10-03-2011, 03:55 PM
OK, but they doubled down in the FA market by signing Fells.

They have looked better against the run on occasion, but McFadden still had a field day. I think the jury is out, Cinci, GB and Tenn arent running on anybody, it may just be that Tenn isnt up to snuff this year.

Our running game is being helped by having a marginal RB take the carries. McGahee is 100times the back slowshon is. Which leads me to the belief that is was our RB's and not so much the line the last couple of years. Notice that slowshon still cant do anything.

You state that we are improved in the trenches and then it still wont matter what else we do because of the gaping holes in the trenches, which is it?

Yes we are improved but we've still got a long way to go.

On the DL we're still moving Ayers inside at DT at times to generate the inside rush. That shouldn't be the case. We need another DT that can push and penetrate the pocket. Bunkley and the rest are ok at holding their own against the run but we don't have an interior presence that can get that consistent push inside.

On the OL Walton/Beadles still have a long way to go. They've minimized their individual errors and defenders aren't blowing past them (like last year) but it's still a weak unit in run blocking.

fontaine
10-03-2011, 04:20 PM
They addressed the run defense by trading for a guy still on his rookie contract and what? Signing a >30, >300 pounds, >12 months out of the game 3-4 DE? Great solutions.

And their fix for the OL was drafting a 2nd round RT to start and nothing else. Not exactly real commitment to excellence there either.

You act like they've completely overhauled other aspects of this team when they didn't touch 90% of the roster McDaniels left them.


Bunkley has done a decent job and Warren's injury was a new one and unrelated to his previous problems.

And yes Franklin was drafted and he is improving.

You may not like the moves, and that's fine. I'll take that any day of the week over trading/signing guys like Jarvis Green/LeKevin Smith and getting scrubs like Hochstein/Stanley Daniels to start.

And then topping it off by trading a late round pick for freakin' Maroney.

And weren't you pimping another over 30 signing last year in Bannan?

By spending what little resources they had like ****.

The FO was obviously money strapped because Bowlen is a cheap ****. But that being the case why did you 1. assume you could fix DT in FA and do nothing for the position in the draft, 2. bring back Orton at $9M for this season, 3. spend what little FA cache you have almost entirely on a retread RB and a broke down 3-4 DE?

Richard Marshall, a capable 26 year old corner left Carolina and signed a one year deal with Arizona this off-season. Why didn't he sign here? He's worlds better than every corner we have not named Champ Bailey.

Simple moves like that were passed up. Mebane was allowed to go back to Seattle for $1M more a year than we gave Ty Warren. Our second big DL "signing" was bringing Marcus Thomas backYou can't play this off as the current regime inheriting **** when they went out of their way to spend more money to keep much of that same **** around.

That retread RB is doing just fine.

And 31 other teams missed out on Mebane/Marshall and guys like Coefield.

I guess they should be slitting their wrists four games into the season then.

And the FO went for the Safety position instead of CB through the draft. Really, what did you think was going to happen? Fox to have unlimited cash and go out and sign everyone you wanted? To have a multiple first day picks to spend at will? Yeah, the previous HC had that chance and blew it.

Drek, you're problem is with the moves/signings that were made, and some of the guys they missed out on.

Fine, I get that, I really do and that's your opinion.

But to be complaining about those moves THIS EARLY in the season is jumping the gun.

I made it clear last year that I didn't like Andre Davis being let go and bringing in an inferior player like Ayodele, you said our front 7 was going to be fine and play physical.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2855620&postcount=33

You were also calling signing injury prone over 30 DL like Jamal Williams a step in the right direction.

McDaniels and the FO got the benefit of the doubt last year but a brand new coaching staff, Elway don't?

This current staff gets at least two drafts/offseasons to see what they can do.

If you want to jump the gun early, fine, go right ahead. You were willing to give McDaniels a chance for the first two drafts/offseasons but not the current staff, and again that's your choice.

Have fun with it.

s0phr0syne
10-03-2011, 05:58 PM
Just watched Fox's presser from today. I have to say that before watching it and just stewing over the loss yesterday compounded with the posts on the board, I was pretty fed up with whatever bulls**t he was going to say.

After watching, I feel more okay with what we're doing and have a greater sense of patience. Am I too easily swayed? I dunno. But I felt more assured and confident that we've got the right guy leading this team after watching it. I wonder what some of you think, so go check it out on denverbroncos.com.

Gort
10-03-2011, 06:23 PM
Just watched Fox's presser from today. I have to say that before watching it and just stewing over the loss yesterday compounded with the posts on the board, I was pretty fed up with whatever bulls**t he was going to say.

After watching, I feel more okay with what we're doing and have a greater sense of patience. Am I too easily swayed? I dunno. But I felt more assured and confident that we've got the right guy leading this team after watching it. I wonder what some of you think, so go check it out on denverbroncos.com.

here's the main problem as i see it. the NFL is now a passing league. lots of elite teams don't really bother with a running game. they use bubble screens and stuff like that to keep the defense honest. if Fox is a throwback to the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" mentality from 30 or 40 years ago, then we are in trouble. don't get me wrong, because that's the style of football i grew up with. but it's not the right strategy for today's NFL. you can spend 9 minutes driving the ball 75 yards on running plays if you want, but when you play a team like GB or NE or Manning's Colts or the Saints or SD, they'll go those 75 yards in 3 or 4 plays with the passing game to match you. unless you have an elite RB who can break off a long run at any time (like AP in Minnesota), i just don't think running the ball is a formula for winning in this league anymore. you can probably go 7-9 or 8-8 or 9-7 every year for sure, but when you have to face those other teams in the playoffs, you'll be outclassed. i heard this view expressed on the radio today and i believe the guy had a point. in today's NFL, the QB is the most important and most protected position on the field. if your QB is mostly handing off the ball, are you really using the right strategy?

fontaine
10-04-2011, 02:13 AM
You can address a problem position without using two draft picks and some FA budget on its something like TE and S, FYI. And its not about fixing the problems I wanted fixed, its about fixing the major problems this team has, not ignoring them nearly completely and instead blowing our wad on ancillary bull****.



We had Champ/Goodman at CB. Nothing at TE unless you think Quinn was going to have a breakout season.

McD put this staff in the position they're in thanks to trading away Schef and moving up to draft a scrub in Quinn.


Did I say we shouldn't have drafted Moore? But if you draft Moore and assume he's a starter why use a 4th on another safety if you're sticking with Dawkins? And FYI, the other safety from the previous regime I referenced was Bruton, who is spelling Dawkins while Carter sits his ass on the bench.

You expect a 4th round rookie Safety to play this season? Really? But if that's what makes you happy then Carter did play against GB in their nickel/dime package.

Happy?

My complaint was that the new regime's idea on how to fix the OL was only drafting a single RT. How do you possibly get me wanting us to draft more out of that? How about signing a few veterans instead of having our 2nd and 3rd teams be indistinguishable scrubs? Mawae, Gurode, Gaither, I could go on but those are just the guys who sat out in FA for a while. Mawae is still there. Meanwhile the minute we lose one of our starters on the OL we go from "bad" to "worst OL in the league" territory. Young, inexperienced starters with absolutely zero depth behind them is not how you address the OL. It got the previous dude fired, you'd think we would know better.

Still a lot better than STARTING, yes STARTING Stanley Daniels and Hochstein isn't it? But I'm sure Daniels is still available, let's bring him in for depth because he did such a great job huh?

Marshall isn't amazing, he's average and he's 26. Which makes him a significant upgrade over Goodman in both categories because Goodman is an old, slow scrub. Hence why a low cost 26 year old corner should have been the least of what we could accomplish in FA.

This is hilarious. McD gives up a first to draft Alphonso Smith, then cuts him and it's the current staff fault for not fixing every cluster **** move McD made the last two years?

Again, you don't like the moves they made? That's fine.

The previous HC had the richest war chest of draft picks plus a lot more money to spend on clowns like Jarvis Green who got a signing bonus then was cut out of training camp, trading for scrubs like Maroney/Quinn/Lekevin Smith etc and signing Jamal Williams/Bannan and repelling talent like Hillis/Schef/Weigman for nothing or a bag of peanuts.

McD got the benefit of the doubt yet Fox and co are being slaughtered with FAR LESS resources, FA money, just FOUR freakin games into a strike curtailed season?

Like I said before, unless you think the 2011 season just appeared out of nowhere, without any cause/reason, then yeah Fox and co didn't fix everything on this roster.

I just see it as the result of the previous HC screwing up our OL/DL/Run game so badly that those areas needed to be addressed first and am willing to give this staff the benefit of at least two drafts/offseasons before I jump the gun.

MacGruder
10-04-2011, 04:20 AM
Fox says something really funny in his press conference.. he says the reason the Tebow plays didn't work is because they didn't have time to develop his offensive package because it takes time just to get "one offense" going without adding anything to it.. then he goes on to list how they changed so much.. he said everything this season was different listing each thing..

The only thing not different is the QB... the thing that needed to be changed the MOST.. lol

Basically what Fox is saying is the only thing that didn't need to be changed from last season was Orton.. because he's a God apparently. lol

fontaine
10-04-2011, 04:37 AM
Fox says something really funny in his press conference.. he says the reason the Tebow plays didn't work is because they didn't have time develop his offensive package because it takes time just to get "one offense" going without adding anything to it.. then he goes on to list how they changed so much.. he said everything this season was different listing each thing..

The only thing not different is the QB... the thing that needed to be changed the MOST.. lol

Basically what Fox is saying is the only thing that didn't need to be changed from last season was Orton.. because he's a God apparently. lol

He's right. The first good look the new staff got of their draft picks, holdovers and FAs was at the start of training camp thanks to the shortened offseason.

A new defensive scheme/formations had to be installed, different way of run blocking etc.

Ideally they would have had all offseason to sit down with Tebow and install specific plays for him in OTA/offseason but they didn't.

Considering what little time they had, and the cluster **** McD left this team in, it's a good sign that they've already gotten improved play from the front 7 and OL/run game.

With another draft and full offseason this team will get better, we just have to address the QB situation one way or another.

MacGruder
10-04-2011, 04:43 AM
Considering what little time they had, and the cluster **** McD left this team in, it's a good sign that they've already gotten improved play from the front 7 and OL/run game.

With another draft and full offseason this team will get better, we just have to address the QB situation one way or another.

Orton was better under McD in his offense though.. why did they need to change the offense if they supposedly have no time?

They had time to change the offense but not the QB.. it makes no sense.

If they had kept McD's offense.. which Tebow fit in.. they wouldn't have needed to change the offense.. that was the belief all off-season.

Again.. it makes no sense to change everything but what needed to be changed most. The Broncos were in most of their games last year... in fact they were better starting out last season than this season.

AND many other teams had more change than the Broncos and just as little time to implement them and are more successful. He says he needs time to work the bugs out.. if they had kept the system last season with Tebow the bugs could have been worked out of that.

One thing that people are missing is that Fox may not be going to Tebow not out of stubbornness.. but because he CAN'T change.. he doesn't have the ability to adapt to a unique player like Tebow so Tebow is taking the blame for tha and has to adapt to Fox.

fontaine
10-04-2011, 05:37 AM
Orton was better under McD in his offense though.. why did they need to change the offense if they supposedly have no time?

They had time to change the offense but not the QB.. it makes no sense.

If they had kept McD's offense.. which Tebow fit in.. they wouldn't have needed to change the offense.. that was the belief all off-season.

Again.. it makes no sense to change everything but what needed to be changed most. The Broncos were in most of their games last year... in fact they were better starting out last season than this season.

AND many other teams had more change than the Broncos and just as little time to implement them and are more successful. He says he needs time to work the bugs out.. if they had kept the system last season with Tebow the bugs could have been worked out of that.

One thing that people are missing is that Fox may not be going to Tebow not out of stubbornness.. but because he CAN'T change.. he doesn't have the ability to adapt to a unique player like Tebow so Tebow is taking the blame for tha and has to adapt to Fox.

Nah, we had to change the offense starting with the way we ran the ball, and cutting out stuff like the trip WR formations because Royal/Thomas were injured. And I'm not sure there was an established offense to begin with considering we were completely one dimensional last year because we couldn't run the ball and were behind so often that it was simply chuck it to lloyd deep.

It's a good point about Fox but when you get down to that level, I think it's more the OC's job to specifically chop/alter the plays as Fox is more of a defensive coach anyway.

MacGruder
10-04-2011, 06:01 AM
Nah, we had to change the offense starting with the way we ran the ball, and cutting out stuff like the trip WR formations because Royal/Thomas were injured. And I'm not sure there was an established offense to begin with considering we were completely one dimensional last year because we couldn't run the ball and were behind so often that it was simply chuck it to lloyd deep.

That is another ridiculous thing though.. when Tebow played the Broncos run game improved DRAMATICALLY. It was like night and day. Tebow makes the runners around him look great. McD drafted Tebow for a reason.. because McD is using Belichick's system and Matt Cassel played great in that system.. and Cassel is a poor man's Tebow. Cassel had a lot of running opportunities in that system as well.

It's a good point about Fox but when you get down to that level, I think it's more the OC's job to specifically chop/alter the plays as Fox is more of a defensive coach anyway.

That is probably why Fox changed the offense.. to help him defensively. But again.. if he supposedly didn't have time why change everything so dramatically anyway? It just makes no sense.. we have to change everything but the biggest weakness of last season - Orton's lack of leadership and athleticism.. in a league where QB is so incredibly important. And he says Orton needs more time when Tebow had ZERO time.. before and now.. yet no excuses for Tebow and endless excuses for Orton. Tebow even outperformed Orton in the actual games against the same opponents.

Rohirrim
10-04-2011, 06:53 AM
I didn't want to mention this, but the guy I wanted, Jim Harbaugh, has the Niners at 3 and 1 and leading their sorry ass division.

Rock Chalk
10-04-2011, 09:20 AM
I didn't want to mention this, but the guy I wanted, Jim Harbaugh, has the Niners at 3 and 1 and leading their sorry ass division.

To be fair, it is a sorry ass division and we play in a ... oh wait ... I see what you did there.

Gort
10-04-2011, 09:40 AM
He's right. The first good look the new staff got of their draft picks, holdovers and FAs was at the start of training camp thanks to the shortened offseason.

A new defensive scheme/formations had to be installed, different way of run blocking etc.

Ideally they would have had all offseason to sit down with Tebow and install specific plays for him in OTA/offseason but they didn't.

Considering what little time they had, and the cluster **** McD left this team in, it's a good sign that they've already gotten improved play from the front 7 and OL/run game.

With another draft and full offseason this team will get better, we just have to address the QB situation one way or another.

ummm. i think i'm missing something. isn't McCoy the same guy who was here last year? didn't Fox and Elway say that was a good thing because it would allow them to retain much of the offense from last year? didn't they have packages put in for Tebow last year?

DrFate
10-04-2011, 09:52 AM
ummm. i think i'm missing something. isn't McCoy the same guy who was here last year? didn't Fox and Elway say that was a good thing because it would allow them to retain much of the offense from last year? didn't they have packages put in for Tebow last year?

Some never let reason and/or logic get in the way of Tebow hating...

TheReverend
10-04-2011, 10:12 AM
I didn't want to mention this, but the guy I wanted, Jim Harbaugh, has the Niners at 3 and 1 and leading their sorry ass division.

Clearly Ha!

Taco John
10-04-2011, 10:26 AM
I didn't want to mention this, but the guy I wanted, Jim Harbaugh, has the Niners at 3 and 1 and leading their sorry ass division.

Interestingly enough, the guy that I wanted is also at 3 and 1 and leading an actually decent division...

http://garciamedialife.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/shanahan.jpg

Rohirrim
10-04-2011, 10:27 AM
Interestingly enough, the guy that I wanted is also at 3 and 1 and leading an actually decent division...

http://garciamedialife.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/shanahan.jpg

I seem to remember you on the Harbaugh bandwagon at one point.

Drek
10-04-2011, 10:28 AM
ummm. i think i'm missing something. isn't McCoy the same guy who was here last year? didn't Fox and Elway say that was a good thing because it would allow them to retain much of the offense from last year? didn't they have packages put in for Tebow last year?

Yep. And the "offensive system change" he's talking about conflicts with McCoy's own statement that the offense will not significantly change, they'll just add some wrinkles to the running game and run more.

This isn't a new offense. The massive drop in Orton's production is entirely a result of not having McDaniels. In New England McDaniels was lauded for his pre-game prep, leading Tom Brady to once comment that McDaniels had him so prepared for the game that he knew what the opposing defense was trying to do on nearly every play.

McDaniels obviously did the same for Orton because now without McD we see Orton completely unable to read defenses. He never audibles away from a bad match up. He locks onto his first read more often than Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, and Blaine Gabbert (all rookies).

In short, Orton is playing like a mid-round rookie forced on the field due to injury. Full on deer in the headlights, check downs immediately after the snap, failing to deliver passes where they need to be, etc.. Everything we're told makes Tebow unready to play Orton does every single game.

My favorite parts about the "well what did you expect them to do, they never got to see these players up until camp!" argument:

1. Ever hear of game tape? The Broncos have entire rooms full of it. Not sure if Vickerson can handle 4-3 DT? Well cue up the game tape from his days in Tennessee and Seattle where he was a 4-3 DT and add the 3-4 DE tape from last season. Wonder if Goodman is losing a step? Compare his game tape from '08 with Miami, '09 with Denver, and '10 with Denver. Its not a mystery why he suddenly started giving up more big plays. I could go on. In summary though, this new regime had an entire off-season where they could sit and absorb game tape on their entire roster and every potential FA at their leasure, with no need to do anything else. They had MONTHS more time to prepare for FA than any new regime has ever had in the history of the NFL. Yet they still sat on their thumbs and did jack ****.

2. This is not actually a new regime. Almost the entire front office has been retained, including Xanders, they just added Elway. The offensive coordinator has been retained, the WR coach was kept (moved to QB coach), the RB coach was retained. The OL coach was kept (moved back to TE). The DL coach was retained. Our entire strength and conditioning staff has been inexplicably retained for years now. We changed OL, DB, LB, WR, and DC.

So we kept 4 positional coaches/coordinators and added 5, with retentions on both sides of the ball. We kept the same medical, S&T, and FO staff almost to a man. This was talked about by the FO as a major asset. Yet now its "well they didn't have much time, can't expect too much!"

No, they just either suck at their jobs, have some ulterior motive behind their irrational moves, or are borderline schizophrenic.

Taco John
10-04-2011, 10:36 AM
I seem to remember you on the Harbaugh bandwagon at one point.

Wasn't me.

If we were going to go the "college football coach turned pro coach" route, I wanted Urban Meyer to come in and coach Tebow. Outside of that, I preferred a stability coach, and was, and still am actually ok with the Fox hiring.

I don't think Fox is going to win us a Superbowl. But in his time here, he'll stabilize the franchise from where Josh had it - though that will be a three year effort. It sucks we're not experiencing the instant gratification we'd like (ie. Tebow starting), but all things considered, I think Fox is doing a decent enough job given the hand he was dealt here.

Taco John
10-04-2011, 10:39 AM
ummm. i think i'm missing something. isn't McCoy the same guy who was here last year? didn't Fox and Elway say that was a good thing because it would allow them to retain much of the offense from last year? didn't they have packages put in for Tebow last year?

John Fox basically said in his press conference on Monday that they would have to run a different offense with Tebow as the starter.

DeuceOfClub
10-04-2011, 10:39 AM
I really wanted Mike McCarthy or Jim Schwartz this year. :strong:

Rascal
10-04-2011, 10:51 AM
This was a 4-12 team last year. This team is improved over that team. Things aren't going to change in one offseason, especially in a shortened one.

jhns
10-04-2011, 10:53 AM
This was a 4-12 team last year. This team is improved over that team. Things aren't going to change in one offseason, especially in a shortened one.

1-3 x 4 = 4-12

Gort
10-04-2011, 10:55 AM
John Fox basically said in his press conference on Monday that they would have to run a different offense with Tebow as the starter.

i'm fine with that argument. it's not an honest one, but i'll give them a pass on it.

however, they claimed they can't even play Tebow is special RZ packages because they didn't have time to work on those. on that, i call shenanigans.

Rascal
10-04-2011, 10:56 AM
1-3 x 4 = 4-12

Using your logic you could state that the Eagles are as good as the 2010 Broncos.

A team's record isn't everything.

Dogsweat
10-04-2011, 10:58 AM
The greatest thing to happen to the Raider fans............


1. Johnnie Elway

2. John Fox

I will enjoy watching the destruction of this 4 SB loss franchise..........

24champ
10-04-2011, 10:58 AM
I didn't want to mention this, but the guy I wanted, Jim Harbaugh, has the Niners at 3 and 1 and leading their sorry ass division.

Me too but we were too cheap in the hiring process.

jhns
10-04-2011, 10:59 AM
Using your logic you could state that the Eagles are as good as the 2010 Broncos.

A team's record isn't everything.

A team lacking on both fronts isn't better. They are a great Madden team...

At six wins last year, about 80% of this forum argued that Shanahan wasn't doing good in Washington. If Fox takes us to four wins, 80% of this forum will make excuses.

Record is everything.

vancejohnson82
10-04-2011, 11:00 AM
i'm fine with that argument. it's not an honest one, but i'll give them a pass on it.

however, they claimed they can't even play Tebow is special RZ packages because they didn't have time to work on those. on that, i call shenanigans.

exactly.....the Bucs last night on a HUGE 4th and 2 in the 4th quarter pulled Josh Freeman and put in Josh Johnson....they faked a FB dive and ran an option and picked up 8 yards, eventually scoring on the drive...the guy most pumped up about hte conversion? Freeman

it left me shaking my head because it was such a great playcall and immediately changed the game...if the Bucs can find way to think outside the box and pick up a big first down with a "gimmick" call, why cant we???

Rascal
10-04-2011, 11:04 AM
A team lacking on both fronts isn't better. They are a great Madden team...

At six wins last year, about 80% of this forum argued that Shanahan wasn't doing good in Washington. If Fox takes us to four wins, 80% of this forum will make excuses.

Record is everything.

They were lacking last year, and I would argue marginally improved this year. You are being purposefully ignorant if you don't think this team is better than last year's.

If you want to take the pre-k anaysis route, i.e. using record only, then go ahead.

jhns
10-04-2011, 11:08 AM
They were lacking last year, and I would argue marginally improved this year. You are being purposefully ignorant if you don't think this team is better than last year's.

I was saying the Eagles lack an o and d line and aren't good. Not sure if that was clear with your response.

We are better but can't beat crap teams that hand us games? No. We have the same horrible coaching and a refusal to fill very important needs. This team is the same as it has been the last couple years.

Again, Shanahan is showing how it's done.

You keep handing out the sped awards and I will continue living in reality.

Rascal
10-04-2011, 11:17 AM
Again, Shanahan is showing how it's done.

He is also in his second year, and went 6-10 last year.

And the team he inherited was better than the 2010 Broncos.

jhns
10-04-2011, 11:20 AM
He is also in his second year, and went 6-10 last year.

And the team he inherited was better than the 2010 Broncos.

He got a four win team. He won six last season. He is competing for the division title in year two. He inheritted a much worse team. This team had four wins with tons of injuries last season. His team had four wins without all those injuries, and with a much better coach.

You aren't living in reality.

Dagmar
10-04-2011, 11:23 AM
I was said the Eagles lack an o and d line and aren't good. Not sure if that was clear with your response.

We are better but can't beat crap teams that hand us games? No. We have the same horrible coaching and a refusal to fill very important needs. This team is the same as it has been the last couple years.

Again, Shanahan is showing how it's done.

You keep handing out the sped awards and I will continue living in reality.

Yeah, Shanny's teams never start fast...

To be fair, I'm disappointed by Fox myself. If he had hired a good you O co-ordinator who wanted to run more and have Tebow as his QB instead of continue last year's mediocrity it would have made a huge difference, no offseason included.

fontaine
10-04-2011, 12:17 PM
ummm. i think i'm missing something. isn't McCoy the same guy who was here last year? didn't Fox and Elway say that was a good thing because it would allow them to retain much of the offense from last year? didn't they have packages put in for Tebow last year?

Did I mention the offense? No.

I did mention specific plays/packages for Tebow, I don't think it's the same as using the exact same plays as last year since defense have had plenty of time to study those.

TheDave
10-04-2011, 12:53 PM
What Jim Schwartz inherited was better than the 2010 Broncos.


fixed it...

Atwater His Ass
10-04-2011, 02:25 PM
John Fox basically said in his press conference on Monday that they would have to run a different offense with Tebow as the starter.

Which ironically, is a step in the right direction. Hopefully that means they would actually develop something that would play to his strengths.

I'm gonna go with the that. Yeah. Fox is creative and is just working on a new offense to take advantage of Tebow. Sweet. Things looking better all the time.

Boobs McGee
10-04-2011, 04:11 PM
Sooooo, quick 10 page recap? Has everyone jumped ship yet?

peacepipe
10-04-2011, 04:16 PM
Which ironically, is a step in the right direction. Hopefully that means they would actually develop something that would play to his strengths.

I'm gonna go with the that. Yeah. Fox is creative and is just working on a new offense to take advantage of Tebow. Sweet. Things looking better all the time.

Nothing wrong with the offensive system we have. we just don't have a QB who can run it. Funny he says that,I made the same point in another post awhile back. there is no 1 player worth changing an entire system over.

strafen
10-04-2011, 04:41 PM
John Fox basically said in his press conference on Monday that they would have to run a different offense with Tebow as the starter.
Different offense?
Wasn't McCoy the offensive coordinator last year?
He had Tebow packages that we ran successfully last year.
What happened to those?

Tebow ran the offense in 3 games. How hard is it to do it again?
Sounds like a cope out to me...

Blueflame
10-04-2011, 04:54 PM
The greatest thing to happen to the Raider fans............


1. Johnnie Elway

2. John Fox

I will enjoy watching the destruction of this 4 SB loss franchise..........

.... says a fan of a team that recently had seven seasons with 5 or fewer wins.... and is still only at .500. :clown:

fontaine
10-05-2011, 05:17 AM
I'm happy to support Fox/Elway and give them the benefit of two drafts/offseason to start showing real improvement starting with getting to .500 football.

I understand we're all frustrated but it seems to me the biggest reason for the frustration is the QB situation - a situation neither man chose but inherited from the previous regime.

I'll still feel the same way when Tebow starts and fails or plays well, because as crappy as Orton is playing right now there are a lot of other areas like the OL/front 7/run game that are equally if not more important.

jhns
10-05-2011, 05:53 AM
I'm happy to support Fox/Elway and give them the benefit of two drafts/offseason to start showing real improvement starting with getting to .500 football.

I understand we're all frustrated but it seems to me the biggest reason for the frustration is the QB situation - a situation neither man chose but inherited from the previous regime.

I'll still feel the same way when Tebow starts and fails or plays well, because as crappy as Orton is playing right now there are a lot of other areas like the OL/front 7/run game that are equally if not more important.

No position is more important than QB in the NFL. After that, no position is more important than left tackle. After that goes pass rushers. And so on...

We are 3-1 right now if we have a semi comoetent QB. We are 3-1 right now if Tebow plays the exact same way he did last season. We are 2-2 if this team was coached by a competent head coach. This is why people are already getting annoyed with Fox. He is giving away games. You don't do that at this level.

fontaine
10-05-2011, 06:20 AM
We are 3-1 right now if we have a semi comoetent QB. We are 3-1 right now if Tebow plays the exact same way he did last season. We are 2-2 if this team was coached by a competent head coach. This is why people are already getting annoyed with Fox. He is giving away games. You don't do that at this level.

Yeah, and we'd be 4-0 right now if we had Terrell Davis, Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Ed, Rod in their prime.

Tebow makes this offense better, of that I have no doubt, but to hang two extra wins on him and him alone is homer.

Especially considering he went 1-2 last year with more time to prep and an offensive staff that had created/installed/practiced specific plays for him.

That record wasn't all on him ofcourse, just like when Tebow starts this year it won't all be on him but a staff/team that puts him in the best position to win.

jhns
10-05-2011, 06:28 AM
Yeah, and we'd be 4-0 right now if we had Terrell Davis, Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Ed, Rod in their prime.

Tebow makes this offense better, of that I have no doubt, but to hang two extra wins on him and him alone is homer.

Especially considering he went 1-2 last year with more time to prep and an offensive that had created/installed/practiced specific plays for him.

That record wasn't all on him ofcourse, just like when Tebow starts this year it won't all be on him but a staff/team that puts him in the best position to win.

The Tebow led offense never scored less than what this defense gave up in the first three games. Comparing it to last season, when they were giving uo twice as much per game is kind of silly...

If he was starting, I would hope he also practiced with the other starters... He didn't get this last season when he outproduced Orton by a lot. He even played two common opponents, scoring almost twice as much as Orton.

Of course the wins wouldn't be all him. He would just be the difference. The improved defense and special teams would be equally responsible for the 3-1. You see, the rest of the team played well enough to win. The QB position screwed them.

richdream88
10-05-2011, 06:39 AM
Fox = Reeves2.0

fontaine
10-05-2011, 06:48 AM
The Tebow led offense never scored less than what this defense gave up in the first three games. Comparing it to last season, when they were giving uo twice as much per game is kind of silly...

If he was starting, I would hope he also practiced with the other starters... He didn't get this last season when he outproduced Orton by a lot. He even played two common opponents, scoring almost twice as much as Orton.

Of course the wins wouldn't be all him. He would just be the difference. The improved defense and special teams would be equally responsible for the 3-1. You see, the rest of the team played well enough to win. The QB position screwed them.

Fine, you believe what you want. I'm not interested in what if's concerning our previous games.

I just want to see Tebow start and be given the best chance to win by the staff/team and I can only see that happening in the bye week when they actually have time to regroup, get more practice with him and the starters as well as getting Moreno/Royal etc back near to full health and the continious improvement in the run game/OL we've seen.

jhns
10-05-2011, 06:51 AM
Fine, you believe what you want. I'm not interested in what if's concerning our previous games.

I just want to see Tebow start and be given the best chance to win by the staff/team and I can only see that happening in the bye week when they actually have time to regroup, get more practice with him and the starters as well as getting Moreno/Royal etc back near to full health and the continious improvement in the run game/OL we've seen.

Then stop making excuses for the incompetence of the front office. You can also stop throwing the rest of the team under the bus to defend **** QB play. My responses to your posts were about the subjects of your posts...

fontaine
10-05-2011, 07:01 AM
Then stop making excuses for the incompetence of the front office. You can also stop throwing the rest of the team under the bus to defend **** QB play. My responses to your posts were about the subjects of your posts...

Right, so just because the staff didn't dedicate themselves completely to a QB you wanted to start makes them incompetent.

It's the same broken record. None of these QBs come close to being a long term answer right now. Not Quinn/Orton who are gone anyway, and not Tebow who's still a long way to go and that's not going to change anytime soon unless the next Tom Brady just falls from the sky into this team.

In the meantime, like I said, there are just as important and collectively more important issues like the front 7/OL/run game to improve and solidify. Just because you've got QB blinkers on doesn't mean it's all we should care about also or the sole measuring stick of a new staff.