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Archer81
10-02-2011, 01:41 AM
I used to think I was on crazy pills. Now I know for sure.

I have never seen a team in rebuilding mode purposely keep their 1st round pick at QB on the bench for ephemeral trade value or nonsensical monetary restrictions. or the belief "he is not ready".

Until now.

The vet is playing like a 2nd year player. Lets go with him anyway. Cuz he "gives us the best chance to win"...if everything else was perfect.

Insanity.

:Broncos:

Blueflame
10-02-2011, 01:42 AM
Disagree with your "is he ready yet" argument, I think that's the point ... find out now, while we're gonna lose anyway, now or never.

But the highlighted there is good logic... even the Jags won't want Tebow if Blaine-freaking-Gabbert is clearly better.

If Paul Poszluzny hadn't just moved to the Jags, he would be perfect here. We might have to throw in a pick, but that would be a good trade, win-win.

The "is he ready yet?" question isn't mine, Buff... the coaches have publicly said they don't think he is ready; I'm saying maybe he is and maybe he isn't. Problem is that the team has assets invested in Tebow and the best-case scenario is for him to not only play but to light it up. If he needs more time to prepare... to be able to do that, then I'm all for giving him (and Franklin) that time. Tebow's hype can be a double-edged sword if he's put out there too soon though and it would be very unfortunate if a promising career was nipped in the bud through impatience.

hambone13
10-02-2011, 01:43 AM
I used to think I was on crazy pills. Now I know for sure.

I have never seen a team in rebuilding mode purposely keep their 1st round pick at QB on the bench for ephemeral trade value or nonsensical monetary restrictions. or the belief "he is not ready".

Until now.

The vet is playing like a 2nd year player. Lets go with him anyway. Cuz he "gives us the best chance to win"...if everything else was perfect.

Insanity.

:Broncos:

Amen. 1st round picks get a legitimate shot at QB. Are there any stats to support this? I would imagine they're overwhelming.

Blueflame
10-02-2011, 01:53 AM
I don't disagree with you but the reality is in my willingness to just ship him out. I'm done with him. He provides nothing for us now or ever given our current state.

What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is this: Given the decimated, chaotic state the franchise was in when Fox & Elway took over, what possible motivation could they have for keeping Tebow on the bench if they truly believed (as some fans clearly do) that he is ready to start? Logic says they don't intentionally piss off a percentage of the fanbase based on nothing more than a whim.

No, I'm convinced that there has to be a very good reason why they are doing things this way.

hambone13
10-02-2011, 02:14 AM
What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is this: Given the decimated, chaotic state the franchise was in when Fox & Elway took over, what possible motivation could they have for keeping Tebow on the bench if they truly believed (as some fans clearly do) that he is ready to start? Logic says they don't intentionally piss off a percentage of the fanbase based on nothing more than a whim.

No, I'm convinced that there has to be a very good reason why they are doing things this way.

I believe understand your point in general. I think it's, "Leave the Expertise to those being paid for it because they were hired by the professionals that are in the business." Your perception as a loyal fan is that they know better than you and you have to believe. I too am a loyal fan and generally follow this premise because it's a logical one. However, multi-million dollar organizations fail all the time because of incompetence and arrogance at the top.

I find this situation to have a strong potential to that end, at this point. We haven't shown strong top-down leadership from Bowlen in ages. We seem to be in a downward spiral rather than a growth model with solid strategic thinking. There's only so many times you can say and believe, "Orton is our best chance to win" given his performance model. At least Shanny and even McD came out and gave us real stats and conversation about why that was true.

Now it's just Broncos FO vs. Tebow and the entire country of Tebow fans. They won't even list him as number 3, if that's what he actually is. It reminds me of McD's stubbornness, which was much less nationally recognized, with Hillis. They just don't seem to want to look stupid or wrong despite the fact that the fans were right. Until I see something about this organization that shows I can trust them, I'm skeptical. I'm not high on Tebowmania, I'm high on seeing some competence, integrity, humility and action towards means that have nothing to do with FO and HC'ing egos but action towards logically building and evaluating a winning team.

BroncoBuff
10-02-2011, 02:30 AM
No, I'm convinced that there has to be a very good reason why they are doing things this way.

Perfect, that's the $64k question ... WHAT'S THE REASON? Why the crazy 180 just 4 days into camp? (see timeline below, next post)

We're likely going nowhere this year, so why not now? What do they even mean by "ready"? Teams throw guys in all the freaking time not sure if they're ready (umm*COUGH*err..1983).

Several possibilities:


Costly escalators/bonuse for games played/started. :: Didn't we know about this long before camp finally started ... how could this have been news 4 days in? And if we're so broke, why break the bank for Champ at the last minute?
Tebow regressed dramatically in the offseason. ::TheDave I think said this, and maybe it's true.
Tebow is disrespected/disliked in the lockerroom. :: This was a theory of mine, though with time it seems less likely.

The scariest possibility, the one I'm literally frightened thinking about, is that Elway and Fox didn't do their homework, didn't watch tape, and thus were honestly surprised when they saw Tebow in camp. There is no way that could have happened, I sure hope not.

BroncoBuff
10-02-2011, 02:45 AM
Your perception as a loyal fan is that they know better than you and you have to believe. I too am a loyal fan and generally follow this premise because it's a logical one. However, multi-million dollar organizations fail all the time because of incompetence and arrogance at the top.

Excellent capsule of that dynamic, the "I'm just a fan" dynamic. You're right about Shanahan and Josh, they both moved boldly: Mike drafted Cutler just after Plummer's best season, and Josh pursued Cassell (or not, whatever), and moved decisively in getting value for Cutler. These guys though, wtf ... Orton? I can't even muster a metaphor ... buying new tires for a 20 year old car that's just snapped a piston rod ... tortured.



Okay, here's the damn timeline. Nobody's gonna read this because I've so over-posted on the topic, but this really is strange:


John Elway, April 28 “Let’s put it this way, I’m his biggest fan. He’s one of those guys who, if he comes out and is the player we hope he can be, then we’re in pretty darn good shape.”

Elway’s latest comments all but wash away the past few months of Tebow uncertainty. They don’t go so far as anointing him as the team’s probable starter for the 2011 season, but it is now pretty safe to say Denver won’t be calling a quarterback on Thursday night either. Elway had this to say to ESPN about this year’s quarterback class: “These guys, obviously, there’s holes in every young guy coming out. There’s not an Andrew Luck, a Stafford, or a Bradford. Those guys are all very good quarterbacks in my mind, but there holes in every one of them — as there were in Tebow. I think where we are as an organization, we’re going to go with Tim.”


July 28 - First Full day of training camp


http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2139/tebowtimetable.jpg

Blueflame
10-02-2011, 02:50 AM
I believe understand your point in general. I think it's, "Leave the Expertise to those being paid for it because they were hired by the professionals that are in the business." Your perception as a loyal fan is that they know better than you and you have to believe. I too am a loyal fan and generally follow this premise because it's a logical one. However, multi-million dollar organizations fail all the time because of incompetence and arrogance at the top.

I find this situation to have a strong potential to that end, at this point. We haven't shown strong top-down leadership from Bowlen in ages. We seem to be in a downward spiral rather than a growth model with solid strategic thinking. There's only so many times you can say and believe, "Orton is our best chance to win" given his performance model. At least Shanny and even McD came out and gave us real stats and conversation about why that was true.

Now it's just Broncos FO vs. Tebow and the entire country of Tebow fans. They won't even list him as number 3, if that's what he actually is. It reminds me of McD's stubbornness, which was much less nationally recognized, with Hillis. They just don't seem to want to look stupid or wrong despite the fact that the fans were right. Until I see something about this organization that shows I can trust them, I'm skeptical. I'm not high on Tebowmania, I'm high on seeing some competence, integrity, humility and action towards means that have nothing to do with FO and HC'ing egos but action towards logically building and evaluating a winning team.

I really appreciate the reasoned, rational discussion we're having, Hambone. It's refreshing and very enjoyable.

So I guess the question is... this: If we assume that the fans are right and Tebow is ready to start, then why is he on the bench?

Possibilities?

"EFX" want "their own" guy.

Ok, this is possible. But I think if this were true, at least behind closed doors, it shouldn't be a secret (ie: all QBs still on the roster should be in constant contact with their agents exploring alternatives.)

"EFX" personally or professionally dislike Tebow (for whatever reason).

But why would they?

"EFX" are intentionally alienating and lying to the fanbase.

Again, what could they possibly hope to gain by this?

"EFX" are incompetent and inexperienced and don't know what the Hell they're doing.

Fox is a veteran HC who has taken an NFL team within sniffing distance of a Lombardi. Elway... while new to the NFL management end of things, isn't exactly unfamiliar with how the NFL... or the Broncos team... works.

Or... Tebow really isn't ready to start, as they have publicly stated.

Occam's razor says this is the most likely answer.... if it's any of the other possibilities, then those responsible will start getting fired sooner rather than later. As they should be.

Oh, on edit, I forgot one "possibility" (courtesy of MacGruder):

John Elway's ego can't allow Tebow a fair chance for fear of being upstaged.

Yeah, right. Ha! ROFL! I'm certain Dan Fouts was terrified of being upstaged by Ryan Leaf (a college hotshot) too.

Blueflame
10-02-2011, 02:54 AM
Perfect, that's the $64k question ... WHAT'S THE REASON? Why the crazy 180 just 4 days into camp? (see timeline below, next post)

We're likely going nowhere this year, so why not now? What do they even mean by "ready"? Teams throw guys in all the freaking time not sure if they're ready (umm*COUGH*err..1983).

Several possibilities:


Costly escalators/bonuse for games played/started. :: Didn't we know about this long before camp finally started ... how could this have been news 4 days in? And if we're so broke, why break the bank for Champ at the last minute?
Tebow regressed dramatically in the offseason. ::TheDave I think said this, and maybe it's true.
Tebow is disrespected/disliked in the lockerroom. :: This was a theory of mine, though with time it seems less likely.

The scariest possibility, the one I'm literally frightened thinking about, is that Elway and Fox didn't do their homework, didn't watch tape, and thus were honestly surprised when they saw Tebow in camp. There is no way that could have happened, I sure hope not.

I honestly wonder if it doesn't boil down to "Tebow's left handed and we have a rookie on the O-line at RT".

Meck77
10-02-2011, 04:40 AM
It takes pain to realize happiness.............

I still have the vision of the orange painted houses in the early 80's! We were nothing but a cow town. A Bronco town.
Oh the pain of the Super Bowl beat downs. The chatter at the local coffee shops was "Get that bum out of town".
The nirvana of winning not one but two super bowls!!
The sadness of the final game at Mile High vs the niners. We sang "We are family" at the end of the game. We scrambled for anything we could take home from the stadium just to try and keep that Mile High magic alive.
John Elway getting into the HOF. The happiness of getting there first and setting up (with Disco man) the largest and single longest running non stop tailgate in Bronco fan history. Several days of smoke billowing over Canton! Truly Epic.

Standing 50 yards away from :OF1: almost in disbelief at what I saw. 100+ Bronco fans smiling, eating, hugging, slapping high fives to one another in anticipation of the Bronco game vs the Giants. Not in Denver but IN NEW YORK! WOOOOOOOOO!
Oh the pain of that loss. 40 hour non stop drive back with Disco man. Pain pain pain....The gas bill. Serious pain! ;D

Our first playoff win at the new stadium! Happiness! Party time in Denver!

Oh the agony of the AFC Championship game vs the Steelers!

Darrent Williams getting shot. Real pain that needs to be put in perspective.

Orton sucks! Tebow! Orton sucks! Tebow!


The thrill is either there or it's gone in your own mind. No way is it gone for the 4 year old Bronco fan who walks into the sea of Orange for the first time. The losses will be painful for them but the wins oh so sweet!


Yes these are tough times to be a Bronco fan but that is no reason not to be kind to one another.

There is a pattern here. Can you see it?

Go Broncos!

Broncoman13
10-02-2011, 07:24 AM
Y'know... QB performance and RB performance are both directly dependent on O-line performance. Our O-line is very young and has a lot of potential for improvement. Improved O-line play will mean improved QB play (regardless of who's the QB) and improved play from the RBs. It starts with the O-line. IMHO.

Blue, the OLine's performance and the RB's performance are hugely dependent on the QB as well.

Everyone's favorite QB, Jay Cutler made the OL in 2007 look tremendous. His ability to move and roll the pocket, avoid pressure and take off and run made guys like Kuper and Clady look a lot better than they are. Is it a surprise to you that our OL play has slid since a statue QB came into the equation? Orton isn't just a statue, he lacks instincts as well and when his limited instincts do come into play, his lack of athleticism lets him down as he can't avoid the pressure, even when he sees that he should step up or run.

As for the running game, have you not noticed that teams now sell out to stop the run? The Broncos are easy to figure these days. Stop the run and make Kyle Orton beat you. Teams have won over 75% of the time in the last two years doing just that. There is no threat of a QB bootleg. No threat of a moving pocket. Orton limits this offense and everyone plays down when he is on the field. When we get into the redzone it is even more obvious, and it is the biggest reason why we settle for FGs the majority of the time.

Bare minimum, right now it's time to make a move when you get in the redzone. If that hurts Kyle Orton's feelings, SFW, where trying to win football games, not pacify veterans... or is pacifying veterans John Fox's biggest goal here?

Smilin Assassin
10-02-2011, 07:25 AM
It takes pain to realize happiness.............

I still have the vision of the orange painted houses in the early 80's! We were nothing but a cow town. A Bronco town.
Oh the pain of the Super Bowl beat downs. The chatter at the local coffee shops was "Get that bum out of town".
The nirvana of winning not one but two super bowls!!
The sadness of the final game at Mile High vs the niners. We sang "We are family" at the end of the game. We scrambled for anything we could take home from the stadium just to try and keep that Mile High magic alive.
John Elway getting into the HOF. The happiness of getting there first and setting up (with Disco man) the largest and single longest running non stop tailgate in Bronco fan history. Several days of smoke billowing over Canton! Truly Epic.

Standing 50 yards away from :OF1: almost in disbelief at what I saw. 100+ Bronco fans smiling, eating, hugging, slapping high fives to one another in anticipation of the Bronco game vs the Giants. Not in Denver but IN NEW YORK! WOOOOOOOOO!
Oh the pain of that loss. 40 hour non stop drive back with Disco man. Pain pain pain....The gas bill. Serious pain! ;D

Our first playoff win at the new stadium! Happiness! Party time in Denver!

Oh the agony of the AFC Championship game vs the Steelers!

Darrent Williams getting shot. Real pain that needs to be put in perspective.

Orton sucks! Tebow! Orton sucks! Tebow!


The thrill is either there or it's gone in your own mind. No way is it gone for the 4 year old Bronco fan who walks into the sea of Orange for the first time. The losses will be painful for them but the wins oh so sweet!


Yes these are tough times to be a Bronco fan but that is no reason not to be kind to one another.

There is a pattern here. Can you see it?

Go Broncos!


Great post, Meck.....things need to be put into perspective.

Cito Pelon
10-02-2011, 08:05 AM
There is no question about who has better mobility. Mobility does not make a difference if you can't see the lion coming. Tebow can dodge a lot of hits but there is a rookie on his blindside. He's good but he is not god.

Tebow is a gamer but he still has a long slow release. Having a rookie at right tackle playing sub par is a disaster waiting to happen. I want him to play but I don't want him to get injured. I think the coaching staff is considering this factor too. If he is considered the future qb you don't throw him to the wolves with no armor on his backside.

Yeah, you're making good points. But they could play Tebow from the shotgun to give him a little more visibility of the blindside rush, and give him a little more space to move if Franklin was beat bad. They could design some rollout pass plays also.

I guess Fox/Elway have multiple concerns about playing Tebow. I don't know what their thinking is.

HAT
10-02-2011, 08:19 AM
I used to think I was on crazy pills. Now I know for sure.

I have never seen a team in rebuilding mode purposely keep their 1st round pick at QB on the bench for ephemeral trade value or nonsensical monetary restrictions. or the belief "he is not ready".


You answered your own question. Tebow will be in there when it's clear they can only look toward the future.

That's either when/if they are 1-4 into the bye or 3-6 heading into week 10. Any other result and Fox will go with the flow until the playoffs are mathematically impossible.

Denver's got an outside shot today since GB's pass D sucks so bad and it's a big time sandwich game for GB.

SD game is a coin flip IMO.

OrangeSe7en
10-02-2011, 08:26 AM
I know exactly what you mean. I'm not going to watch the Packers game live. Instead I'll watch the better games on the Sunday Ticket. I'll watch the Broncos late Sunday evening so I can fast forward through the slaughter which will undoubtedly include seeing Orton sacked 5 times and the Broncos getting creamed by at least 14 to 21 points. Since the Broncos Secondary won't be able to stop Rodgers and company and since the Broncos O can't put points on the board it seems pointless.

Until Orton is yanked I'm not sure I'll waste my time watching another game live until Tebow finally gets his job. The DVR has been my best friend the last 3 years, without it life on Sunday would be a living hell.

Orton might actually get injured this game. Theyll probably play Quinn though.

Requiem
10-02-2011, 08:34 AM
Orton might actually get injured this game. Theyll probably play Quinn though.

We can only hope that Clay Matthews does a bunch of steroids before the game.

Cito Pelon
10-02-2011, 09:34 AM
I honestly wonder if it doesn't boil down to "Tebow's left handed and we have a rookie on the O-line at RT".

I can see how the staff maybe is worried about Tebow getting injured, not necessarily because of Franklin, but just in general.

Tebow was injured in the PS his rookie year, getting sandwiched at the goal line trying to score, was out two games. And Tebow came close to getting injured this PS trying to go head-to-head with an LB and a safety (fumbled also while trying to do that). Tebow is a stout guy, but . . . . . .

Having said all that, this is the NFL, you have to let guys play that can play. I don't know how much longer they can justifiably keep Tebow in the doghouse. I can understand how he got into the doghouse, probably didn't meet the expectations they laid out to him when TC opened. But at some point you have to let the guy play whether he meets rigid expectations or not. Of course, coaches are coaches, most of them like to have complete control over every iota, they like their nice comfortable rut where everything is just as they designed.

Broncoman13
10-02-2011, 09:53 AM
I can see how the staff maybe is worried about Tebow getting injured, not necessarily because of Franklin, but just in general.

Tebow was injured in the PS his rookie year, getting sandwiched at the goal line trying to score, was out two games. And Tebow came close to getting injured this PS trying to go head-to-head with an LB and a safety (fumbled also while trying to do that). Tebow is a stout guy, but . . . . . .

Having said all that, this is the NFL, you have to let guys play that can play. I don't know how much longer they can justifiably keep Tebow in the doghouse. I can understand how he got into the doghouse, probably didn't meet the expectations they laid out to him when TC opened. But at some point you have to let the guy play whether he meets rigid expectations or not. Of course, coaches are coaches, most of them like to have complete control over every iota, they like their nice comfortable rut where everything is just as they designed.

I think your last paragraph sums it up perfectly. The problem I have is the same one I had with Peyton Hillis. Sometimes, you just have to put a guy in and see if the "Gamer" comes out in him. Especially true for players that have athletic traits (Power, speed, etc) that don't necessarily show during practice. Peyton Hillis wasn't going to run over players in practice, you don't practice that way. Just like Tim Tebow isn't going to improvise during scripted practice plays. No doubt in my mind that Kyle Orton runs a play as scripted better than Tim Tebow, but when the play goes off script, which it often does... who gives you a better chance at success?

Blueflame
10-02-2011, 12:11 PM
Blue, the OLine's performance and the RB's performance are hugely dependent on the QB as well.

Everyone's favorite QB, Jay Cutler made the OL in 2007 look tremendous. His ability to move and roll the pocket, avoid pressure and take off and run made guys like Kuper and Clady look a lot better than they are. Is it a surprise to you that our OL play has slid since a statue QB came into the equation? Orton isn't just a statue, he lacks instincts as well and when his limited instincts do come into play, his lack of athleticism lets him down as he can't avoid the pressure, even when he sees that he should step up or run.

As for the running game, have you not noticed that teams now sell out to stop the run? The Broncos are easy to figure these days. Stop the run and make Kyle Orton beat you. Teams have won over 75% of the time in the last two years doing just that. There is no threat of a QB bootleg. No threat of a moving pocket. Orton limits this offense and everyone plays down when he is on the field. When we get into the redzone it is even more obvious, and it is the biggest reason why we settle for FGs the majority of the time.

Bare minimum, right now it's time to make a move when you get in the redzone. If that hurts Kyle Orton's feelings, SFW, where trying to win football games, not pacify veterans... or is pacifying veterans John Fox's biggest goal here?

You're right that QB performance, RB performance, and O-line performance are all dependent on each other to a large extent. A lot of football begins and ends in the trenches though and with such an inexperienced O-line... that's only played 3 games together as a unit... that just looks like the most suspect part of the offense to me. That said, I've never believed Orton was "the answer".... I mean, he was basically a "toss in" by the Bears to get the Cutler deal done. To me, it sucks that we don't have any better options than Orton. But I totally don't buy the notion that the coaches wouldn't be playing Tebow if he were a better option than Orton; I fully believe they would be.

I hear you on the "crowding the LOS to stop the run... that's precisely what our defensive game plan was last week (stop Chris Johnson and make Hasselbeck beat us).

Guess I have to believe Fox & Elway have some clue what they're doing (unless or until they demonstrate that they don't)... 'cause if they don't, the Broncos will be set back even further than they were by McDaniels and we'll be losing football games that much longer.