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View Full Version : The Way Too Early Prognostication About Next Summer (with equal parts optimism and realism)


epicSocialism4tw
09-28-2011, 01:44 AM
I think that this season is developing into one where the Broncos start out slow and then start putting together some wins later in the year. When other teams start shutting it down or falling apart, Denver and its roster full of young players will start putting things together mentally and will start having some success. I dont expect an extreme amount of success, but Id say that getting to a couple games within .500 is possible. Personally, I think that the Broncos will win 5 or 6 games.

I think that this will put our draft position in the 5-10 range.

With a quick glance at the free agent list, it appears that there wont be much available in terms of RB's. Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice will be free agents, but I highly doubt that they leave their teams, though that would make my football year. Guys like Matt Forte, Arian Foster, L Tomlinson, Ced Benson, Ryan Grant, Ronnie Brown, Marshawn Lynch, and Jason Snelling will be available. They all would be better than what is in Denver right now, but not by as much as our coaches would like.

There's one RB who is generally projected as a top 10 pick, and thats Trent Richardson of Alabama. I think that the front office would like to take a back high in this draft. I could see them taking one with their first round choice, or with their second round choice (or even packaging that #2 to move up for a targeted back at the end of the first).

Picks from 5-10 are usually prime spots to take RB's, DE's, CB's, and LB's...all of which the Broncos could use. The guys at those positions at that spot in the draft are many times the top prospect at their position...for example, last year Patrick Peterson CB and Aldon Smith DE were drafted in that range, in 2010 Joe Haden CB, Rolando McClain LB, CJ Spiller RB, and Tyson Alualu DE were the first from those positions to be drafted and they went from 5-10. Of course the trends vary a little from year to year, but that depends on what kind of player is taken in the top 5. Of late that has been QB's, DT's and OT's...those seem like the most valuable players in the draft. So if theres a great one (or two), those are the picks that come off the board first.

This draft will have Luck going #1 overall. Usually when a QB goes that high, the next best QB comes off the board pretty soon afterward.

My hope is that the Broncos are still focused on taking the BPA like they did this year with Miller. If the team ends up in the 5-10 range, they'll have a shot at BPA at positions that we need to address. That could be a place where the Broncos pick the top RB, likely Trent Richardson.

fontaine
09-28-2011, 02:14 AM
My only plan for the offseason is to look forward to Quinn/Orton leaving, trading for Carson Palmer while we draft a QB in the first.

Palmer would make this offense explosive while the QB we draft gets two/three years to sit on the bench and learn. That's if Tebow doesn't pan out this season (which I don't think he will) when he does play.

Doggcow
09-28-2011, 02:55 AM
I thought AD got re-signed?

Doggcow
09-28-2011, 02:57 AM
Btw I will punch myself in the dick if we take Tony Richardson top 10 next year.

TDmvp
09-28-2011, 03:14 AM
My only plan for the offseason is to look forward to Quinn/Orton leaving, trading for Carson Palmer while we draft a QB in the first.

Palmer would make this offense explosive while the QB we draft gets two/three years to sit on the bench and learn. That's if Tebow doesn't pan out this season (which I don't think he will) when he does play.


As a Broncos fan for 30ish years and someone who has lived his whole life in Cincinnati , and someone who likes Carson , Carson wouldn't be much better than Orton with the current lineup.

At this point Carson's best years are behind him and a 31 year old Palmer isn't any better than a 28 year old Orton.

Carson has never been the same since the hit vs Pitt. in the playoffs.
He's became very inaccuracy missing high lots and can not get you a 3rd and 5 with his legs and if anyone gets near him especially his lower body you can just see it that he's gun shy.


So don't plan that crap fontaine Hilarious!

fontaine
09-28-2011, 03:58 AM
As a Broncos fan for 30ish years and someone who has lived his whole life in Cincinnati , and someone who likes Carson , Carson wouldn't be much better than Orton with the current lineup.

At this point Carson's best years are behind him and a 31 year old Palmer isn't any better than a 28 year old Orton.

Carson has never been the same since the hit vs Pitt. in the playoffs.
He's became very inaccuracy missing high lots and can not get you a 3rd and 5 with his legs and if anyone gets near him especially his lower body you can just see it that he's gun shy.


So don't plan that crap fontaine Hilarious!

Fair enough. I know he's had issues since that playoff game but I didn't realize it was that bad.

Hey, what can I say, I believe he'll be an upgrade especially considering our OL is improving and the weapons we have in the passing game.

But that's based on Tebow not doing enough this year to show he merits the starting job (I hope I'm wrong).

Durango
09-28-2011, 04:31 AM
My only plan for the offseason is to look forward to Quinn/Orton leaving, trading for Carson Palmer while we draft a QB in the first.

Palmer would make this offense explosive while the QB we draft gets two/three years to sit on the bench and learn. That's if Tebow doesn't pan out this season (which I don't think he will) when he does play.

This.

QB in the 1st seems almost a certainty. Tebow to a Florida team wanting to fill seats.

robbieopperude
09-28-2011, 05:14 AM
I would prefer we take Burfict at ILB or Dre Kirkpatrick at DB since there isn't a good DT available in that 5-10 range. Right now I have seen a DT from Clemson (I forget his name) projected as the only DT in the top 15. I hope we do get a top 5 pick we trade back for whoever wants Jones from Oklahoma. My hunch is Luck and Barkley go in the top 3 and Jones very well could go there also. I am still holding out that Tebow can play well since we will be 1 and 3 after this week and staring at a much tougher schedule from here on out.

robbieopperude
09-28-2011, 05:16 AM
If we have a shot at Kalil or Matin at OT I would do that also because that would greatly improve our OL. How many more years does Moreno have on his contract? I just can't imagine him back at this point with McGahee signed as our slower between the tackles guy currently.

TheDave
09-28-2011, 07:10 AM
My only plan for the offseason is to look forward to Quinn/Orton leaving, trading for Carson Palmer while we draft a QB in the first.

Palmer would make this offense explosive while the QB we draft gets two/three years to sit on the bench and learn. That's if Tebow doesn't pan out this season (which I don't think he will) when he does play.

Palmer would only be 32 and rested... Hmmm

Sadly, I've never even considerered that... what the hell is wrong with me?

epicSocialism4tw
09-28-2011, 07:11 AM
If we have a shot at Kalil or Matin at OT I would do that also because that would greatly improve our OL. How many more years does Moreno have on his contract? I just can't imagine him back at this point with McGahee signed as our slower between the tackles guy currently.

I think that the front office sees our OL as set. They are looking better and better each week.

They just drafted an OT in the second round of this past draft, and Clady is on the other side, so I dont see them drafting OL. Guards are usually taken later in the draft.

Im with you on the DB and Burflict though. I am excited by the idea of them drafting a tough athlete for MLB. That could potentially set this run defense for awhile if he worked out. A dominant MLB does alot to help the DTs.

Rohirrim
09-28-2011, 07:44 AM
The Broncos could go the rest of this season without winning another game. GB and Sandyeggo are foregone conclusions. Miami in a morning game? Not good odds. Lions will have a healthy Fairley to go with Suh by the time we get there. Raiders? Doubtful. Probably a sweep. We might be able to split with the Chiefs and win the home game. Jets and Vikes are possibilities, but not sure things by any stretch. Bears, Pats and Bills are fuggedaboutit.

IMO, Elway is firm in his belief that what this team needs is a franchise QB. He's right. That should be the #1 target going into next year. Whatever it takes.

Drek
09-28-2011, 08:11 AM
The Broncos could go the rest of this season without winning another game. GB and Sandyeggo are foregone conclusions. Miami in a morning game? Not good odds. Lions will have a healthy Fairley to go with Suh by the time we get there. Raiders? Doubtful. Probably a sweep. We might be able to split with the Chiefs and win the home game. Jets and Vikes are possibilities, but not sure things by any stretch. Bears, Pats and Bills are fuggedaboutit.

IMO, Elway is firm in his belief that what this team needs is a franchise QB. He's right. That should be the #1 target going into next year. Whatever it takes.

The Lions could literally no field a defense and still beat us. We'll never stop their offense and Orton would find a way to turn the ball over somehow.

Ambiguous
09-28-2011, 08:17 AM
As a Broncos fan for 30ish years and someone who has lived his whole life in Cincinnati , and someone who likes Carson , Carson wouldn't be much better than Orton with the current lineup.

At this point Carson's best years are behind him and a 31 year old Palmer isn't any better than a 28 year old Orton.

Carson has never been the same since the hit vs Pitt. in the playoffs.
He's became very inaccuracy missing high lots and can not get you a 3rd and 5 with his legs and if anyone gets near him especially his lower body you can just see it that he's gun shy.


So don't plan that crap fontaine Hilarious!

That was one hell of a sentence.

TheDave
09-28-2011, 08:17 AM
The Broncos could go the rest of this season without winning another game. GB and Sandyeggo are foregone conclusions. Miami in a morning game? Not good odds. Lions will have a healthy Fairley to go with Suh by the time we get there. Raiders? Doubtful. Probably a sweep. We might be able to split with the Chiefs and win the home game. Jets and Vikes are possibilities, but not sure things by any stretch. Bears, Pats and Bills are fuggedaboutit.

IMO, Elway is firm in his belief that what this team needs is a franchise QB. He's right. That should be the #1 target going into next year. Whatever it takes.

Unfortunately... were just not that bad. We have a marginally talentented injury decimated team and have hung in there with with the first wave. Yeah it gets alot harder but we also get key players back.

Were going to steal a couple of games we shouldn't. Were going to end up with 5+ wins, and well out of the sweepstakes.

schaaf
09-28-2011, 08:22 AM
The Lions could literally no field a defense and still beat us. We'll never stop their offense and Orton would find a way to turn the ball over somehow.


He would turn it over on downs doing offensive frames haha

Pick Six
09-28-2011, 08:25 AM
I thought AD got re-signed?

On his way home, he fumbled the contract...:woowoo:

BHamita
09-28-2011, 08:27 AM
Btw I will punch myself in the dick if we take Tony Richardson top 10 next year.


Yup. I'll be mad if we draft a 40 year old FB too.

ICON
09-28-2011, 08:39 AM
Both Jerel Worthy and Johnathan Strayhorn are guys I like at the DT position.

ICON
09-28-2011, 08:42 AM
I think that this season is developing into one where the Broncos start out slow and then start putting together some wins later in the year. When other teams start shutting it down or falling apart, Denver and its roster full of young players will start putting things together mentally and will start having some success. I dont expect an extreme amount of success, but Id say that getting to a couple games within .500 is possible. Personally, I think that the Broncos will win 5 or 6 games.

I think that this will put our draft position in the 5-10 range.

With a quick glance at the free agent list, it appears that there wont be much available in terms of RB's. Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice will be free agents, but I highly doubt that they leave their teams, though that would make my football year. Guys like Matt Forte, Arian Foster, L Tomlinson, Ced Benson, Ryan Grant, Ronnie Brown, Marshawn Lynch, and Jason Snelling will be available. They all would be better than what is in Denver right now, but not by as much as our coaches would like.

There's one RB who is generally projected as a top 10 pick, and thats Trent Richardson of Alabama. I think that the front office would like to take a back high in this draft. I could see them taking one with their first round choice, or with their second round choice (or even packaging that #2 to move up for a targeted back at the end of the first).

Picks from 5-10 are usually prime spots to take RB's, DE's, CB's, and LB's...all of which the Broncos could use. The guys at those positions at that spot in the draft are many times the top prospect at their position...for example, last year Patrick Peterson CB and Aldon Smith DE were drafted in that range, in 2010 Joe Haden CB, Rolando McClain LB, CJ Spiller RB, and Tyson Alualu DE were the first from those positions to be drafted and they went from 5-10. Of course the trends vary a little from year to year, but that depends on what kind of player is taken in the top 5. Of late that has been QB's, DT's and OT's...those seem like the most valuable players in the draft. So if theres a great one (or two), those are the picks that come off the board first.

This draft will have Luck going #1 overall. Usually when a QB goes that high, the next best QB comes off the board pretty soon afterward.

My hope is that the Broncos are still focused on taking the BPA like they did this year with Miller. If the team ends up in the 5-10 range, they'll have a shot at BPA at positions that we need to address. That could be a place where the Broncos pick the top RB, likely Trent Richardson.

Top 10 pick? No, not with the changes in offensive systems.

Top 10 talent? I can definitely see it.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 08:47 AM
I think that the front office sees our OL as set. They are looking better and better each week.

They just drafted an OT in the second round of this past draft, and Clady is on the other side, so I dont see them drafting OL. Guards are usually taken later in the draft.

Im with you on the DB and Burflict though. I am excited by the idea of them drafting a tough athlete for MLB. That could potentially set this run defense for awhile if he worked out. A dominant MLB does alot to help the DTs.

Tebow has 13 games to prove he is the qbotf...
gonna be hard to do running routes as a decoy wide receiver.

My guess is QB in the first round next year, followed by DT or CB.


If we are talking Superbowl...all 3 interior OL will need to be replaced...but how many years out is that?

schaaf
09-28-2011, 09:22 AM
Right now my top three guesses are

1. Andrew Luck- You're crazy to think that Elway isn't licking his chops and hasn't thought about doing whatever it takes to draft him

2. Trent Richardson- Fox has drafted 2 running backs in the first round, Trent is an all around back, physical with the home run speed

3. Vontaze Burfict- Fox also needs a leader at MLB.. I am still hoping that Nate Irving will be able to take it, but we know Mays isn't a long term solution

Que
09-28-2011, 09:31 AM
IMO, Elway is firm in his belief that what this team needs is a franchise QB. He's right. That should be the #1 target going into next year. Whatever it takes.

Agreed. But I would say that should be the #1 target now. Which is why every game #8 starts is a lost opportunity IMHO. Throw Tebow and/or Quinn to the wolves and see if they're our franchise QB. If not, move on. I do not want to be having this same conversation come draft day.

One thing we all agree on is that on draft day, we should know whether we need to acquire that franchise QB or whether he's already on the team. So let's get on with it.

edog24
09-28-2011, 09:49 AM
If we miss out on Luck, I think if we don't draft OL or DL with our initial picks then we are stupid.

Haven't we had enough of glamorous wasted early round picks?

We need to win in the trenches first, then pick up talent at the skill positions from FA, especially since we will have tons of dough sitting around by not paying anyone their escalators.

Rohirrim
09-28-2011, 10:00 AM
Agreed. But I would say that should be the #1 target now. Which is why every game #8 starts is a lost opportunity IMHO. Throw Tebow and/or Quinn to the wolves and see if they're our franchise QB. If not, move on. I do not want to be having this same conversation come draft day.

One thing we all agree on is that on draft day, we should know whether we need to acquire that franchise QB or whether he's already on the team. So let's get on with it.

I know the fans still want an answer to that question, but I get the feeling that Fox and the FO (Elway) have already answered that question to their own satisfaction.

Hulamau
09-28-2011, 10:12 AM
The Broncos could go the rest of this season without winning another game. GB and Sandyeggo are foregone conclusions. Miami in a morning game? Not good odds. Lions will have a healthy Fairley to go with Suh by the time we get there. Raiders? Doubtful. Probably a sweep. We might be able to split with the Chiefs and win the home game. Jets and Vikes are possibilities, but not sure things by any stretch. Bears, Pats and Bills are fuggedaboutit.

IMO, Elway is firm in his belief that what this team needs is a franchise QB. He's right. That should be the #1 target going into next year. Whatever it takes.

Yep a true Franchise QB can compensate for a lot of other less than ideal scenarios.

epicSocialism4tw
09-28-2011, 10:25 AM
The Broncos are not drafting Luck.

Its silly to keep suggesting that the Broncos are going to trade the farm for a QB when Fox's system does not require a franchise QB and there are so many holes on the defensive side of the ball.

Also, can the idea of drafting a tackle. We just drafted a tackle.

NFLBRONCO
09-28-2011, 10:26 AM
The Broncos could go the rest of this season without winning another game. GB and Sandyeggo are foregone conclusions. Miami in a morning game? Not good odds. Lions will have a healthy Fairley to go with Suh by the time we get there. Raiders? Doubtful. Probably a sweep. We might be able to split with the Chiefs and win the home game. Jets and Vikes are possibilities, but not sure things by any stretch. Bears, Pats and Bills are fuggedaboutit.

IMO, Elway is firm in his belief that what this team needs is a franchise QB. He's right. That should be the #1 target going into next year. Whatever it takes.

This is my #1 hope go 1-15 and land Luck. The reality is who knows what will happen. You never know if a team overlooks us and we win.

crush17
09-28-2011, 10:47 AM
Has anyone turned this thread into a thread about Tebow or Orton yet?

Rohirrim
09-28-2011, 11:00 AM
The Broncos are not drafting Luck.

Its silly to keep suggesting that the Broncos are going to trade the farm for a QB when Fox's system does not require a franchise QB and there are so many holes on the defensive side of the ball.

Also, can the idea of drafting a tackle. We just drafted a tackle.

Every system requires a franchise QB. And how do you know what the Broncos are going to do? The truth is, you have no idea. As far as trading the farm goes, Luck is as accurate as Brady, manages the offense like Peyton, and runs like Tebow. I'd pull a Ditka in a heartbeat for a player like that.

http://youtu.be/KcYFjD4PK8E

broncogary
09-28-2011, 11:15 AM
Every system requires a franchise QB. And how do you know what the Broncos are going to do? The truth is, you have no idea. As far as trading the farm goes, Luck is as accurate as Brady, manages the offense like Peyton, and runs like Tebow. I'd pull a Ditka in a heartbeat for a player like that.

http://youtu.be/KcYFjD4PK8E

Please. Ha!

Rohirrim
09-28-2011, 11:22 AM
Please. Ha!

Watch the vid.

robbieopperude
09-28-2011, 11:25 AM
If we miss out on Luck, I think if we don't draft OL or DL with our initial picks then we are stupid.

Haven't we had enough of glamorous wasted early round picks?

We need to win in the trenches first, then pick up talent at the skill positions from FA, especially since we will have tons of dough sitting around by not paying anyone their escalators.

You can't pass on Kalil when he is rated as highly as Jake Long. You take him and play him at RT and have yourself a dominant OL.

robbieopperude
09-28-2011, 11:28 AM
I would also make that trade for Luck if we determine that Tebow can't play for us.

On the Carson Palmer trade idea. I would agree to giving Cinci a player and a pick as long as Carson redid his deal for us. I think his current salary is pretty high.

mkporter
09-28-2011, 11:42 AM
Watch the vid.

The guy is pretty mobile and elusive, but had Tebow run into that CB that Luck "knocked over," they'd have to stop the game to collect the pieces of him strewn over the field.

Seriously though, pretty impressive.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 11:56 AM
You can't pass on Kalil when he is rated as highly as Jake Long. You take him and play him at RT and have yourself a dominant OL.

Down with this. We indeed need a LG and Center. Franklin at LG makes the most sense, if you actually want to be able to dictate the LOS.

Starting positions that need to be replaced ASAP:

1. QB - Tebow or 2012 1st round.
2. DT - Gonna have to draft one in the first 2 rounds at some point.
3. CB - Wearing very thin at this position. Starter to be found in 2012 2nd round if no starting DT available.
4. LG - Beadles has not performed well. Need a mauler. High round draft pick 2013 on RT, move Franklin inside.
5. C - Walton lacks the mental toughness and strength, 4th rated Center in a bad class in 2010. High round draft pick 2013.
6. RB - 3rd round 2012?
7. MLB - Liking Joe Mays right now, but I don't think he has the versatility/range in pass coverage. Irving attitude not cut out for NFL MLB.
8. RG - Kuper is decent, but lacks red zone effectiveness. 303 lbs. is too light at OG in today's NFL.

Requiem
09-28-2011, 12:02 PM
I wouldn't consider Richardson in this draft. I'd wait for Lattimore next year or someone later in this years draft if you are going RB.

I'd consider Luck at QB, and probably pass on Barkley or Jones for right now.

Blackmon and Jeffrey are about as talented as they come. People hate drafting WR in the first, but these are guys you have to consider. They have All-Pro potential year after year. I'm not sure anyone we do has that, and I liked Demaryius and love Decker.

Kirkpatrick is shoulders above any CB in this class, and he should be given consideration if we are drafting that high.

I like Thompson and Worthy at DT. I think Crick could be a player for us, but best suited for the 3-4 @ DE.

If guard play doesn't improve, I consider Cordy Glenn to bolster our offensive line. I might even draft Matt Kalil, move Franklin to OG.

Manti T'eo over Vontaze Burfict right now for a variety of reasons @ ILB.

It all really depends on where we are picking. I'd give every guy I mentioned worth drafting a Top 20 grade, but most are probably Top 15 guys.

Unfortunately, we better hope some juniors declare or the senior list of options seems pretty turdy.

BroncoMan4ever
09-28-2011, 01:24 PM
My hope is that the Broncos are still focused on taking the BPA like they did this year with Miller. If the team ends up in the 5-10 range, they'll have a shot at BPA at positions that we need to address. That could be a place where the Broncos pick the top RB, likely Trent Richardson.

i say if Tebow plays and fails the draft philosophy for the Broncos becomes, Luck, Barkley and then BPA if both are gone.

however if we are in the top 5 I really don't want to draft a RB that high. i was all for getting a RB in 09, but was pissed that we got one at 12. top 5 or even top 10 is too early for a RB. i would rather we dump some coin on Michael Bush since he will be unrestricted next year and focus on DL, interior OL, QB and Corner in the draft.

BroncoMan4ever
09-28-2011, 01:32 PM
Down with this. We indeed need a LG and Center. Franklin at LG makes the most sense, if you actually want to be able to dictate the LOS.

Starting positions that need to be replaced ASAP:

1. QB - Tebow or 2012 1st round.
2. DT - Gonna have to draft one in the first 2 rounds at some point.
3. CB - Wearing very thin at this position. Starter to be found in 2012 2nd round if no starting DT available.
4. LG - Beadles has not performed well. Need a mauler. High round draft pick 2013 on RT, move Franklin inside.
5. C - Walton lacks the mental toughness and strength, 4th rated Center in a bad class in 2010. High round draft pick 2013.
6. RB - 3rd round 2012?
7. MLB - Liking Joe Mays right now, but I don't think he has the versatility/range in pass coverage. Irving attitude not cut out for NFL MLB.
8. RG - Kuper is decent, but lacks red zone effectiveness. 303 lbs. is too light at OG in today's NFL.

i don't know how much blame can be put on Kuper about the OL play. he has been sandwiched between a past his prime in the wrong scheme center and an ok RT a rookie and a backup in 2010, a rookie and a mediocre center in 2011

the past 3 years the right side of the line has just been weak. when Kuper had a healthy Ryan Harris with him and Weigman in the proper scheme for his abilities the line looked just fine and his play was good.

but take away the ZBS and you took away Weigman's effectiveness, then he worked with a rookie center who isn't very good and an injured Harris and his backup, then now a rookie RT and a still mediocre center.

Kuper may be small by today's standards but i really don't think he is a major problem on the line.

i say find a veteran center next year to hold down the spot while we groom someone or find someone in the draft. move Franklin inside next to Clady and draft the best RT in the draft next year.

fontaine
09-28-2011, 01:36 PM
Every system requires a franchise QB. And how do you know what the Broncos are going to do? The truth is, you have no idea. As far as trading the farm goes, Luck is as accurate as Brady, manages the offense like Peyton, and runs like Tebow. I'd pull a Ditka in a heartbeat for a player like that.

http://youtu.be/KcYFjD4PK8E

What the hell happened to all the sensible posters here?

Ro is absolutely right.

We do what it takes to get Luck and if not we target the next best QB.

Or do we really want to see KC end up with a franchise QB while we trot out the next Griese/Plummer/Orton for the next decade?

People are suggesting an OT/WR?!
LOL
ROFL!

No disrespect, but who the hell would the OT be protecting? Who's going to throw 100+ passes to a franchise WR?

That's like buying a Ferrari for a kid who can't drive.

I'm done playing Russian Roulette with the next talent less, limited, arm strength challenged veteran QB.

Draft a true QB,
let him sit for one/two years to develop,
while Tebow (or whoever) takes his lumps at starter until his contract is out or the kid is ready,
build the defense/running game in those one/two years,

and we'll be a contender for a decade.

The QB is the heart and soul of any true playoff franchise. We don't win another SuperBowl with the Ortons/Plummers/Grieses of this world. Even with a hall of fame coach in Shanahan, hall of fame players like Champ/Lynch and pro bowlers like Wilson/Pryce, with a perennial top 5 running game the closest we got was getting embaressed in the AFC Championship game.

What makes anyone think Fox can do any better without a franchise QB?

fontaine
09-28-2011, 01:55 PM
I swear to god sometimes I'll never understand people here.

There are long timers on this site that still have a raging hard on for Ed Reed (because we went with Lelie instead).

Now when we may be in position to trade up to draft Luck, or another possible franchise QB in a very good class, people are getting gun shy and talking OT/WR/RB/DL/CB??

Why? So we can spent the next 10 years whining about Ed Reed all over again but at QB instead?

vancejohnson82
09-28-2011, 02:34 PM
my favorite part of this thread is people saying that there is no way we can compete with teams like the Bills and Dolphins right now

grass is greener I guess

BroncoMan4ever
09-28-2011, 03:23 PM
I swear to god sometimes I'll never understand people here.

There are long timers on this site that still have a raging hard on for Ed Reed (because we went with Lelie instead).

Now when we may be in position to trade up to draft Luck, or another possible franchise QB in a very good class, people are getting gun shy and talking OT/WR/RB/DL/CB??

Why? So we can spent the next 10 years whining about Ed Reed all over again but at QB instead?

my main reason for being apprehensive in the trade anything it takes to get Luck debate is, i am never sure about any player in the draft. he seems to be the next good to great QB coming out of college but i think of guys like Leaf, Carr, Harrington, Russell, Akili Smith, Alex Smith, guys who were all top 3 picks who failed on epic levels(i still believe under different circumstances Carr could have been good)

because of that i am leery of pulling the trigger on a Ditka Deal

plus with as many holes as this team has is it a good idea to be trading away an entire draft for 1 guy. better course of action would be our 1st in 2012(which looks like it is going to be top 5) and a 1st in 2013 or a combination of a 1st in 2012 and any player(s) on the roster not named, Miller, Doom, Bailey and Clady.

epicSocialism4tw
09-28-2011, 03:42 PM
Every system requires a franchise QB. And how do you know what the Broncos are going to do? The truth is, you have no idea.

Absolutely not.

Fox's Panthers made the Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme and a killer defense. Not quite a franchise QB. Then there's that whole 2000 Ravens thing.

As far as trading the farm goes, Luck is as accurate as Brady, manages the offense like Peyton, and runs like Tebow. I'd pull a Ditka in a heartbeat for a player like that.

http://youtu.be/KcYFjD4PK8E

Ha!

Runs like Tebow? Are you serious? Tebow runs like Tebow. Nobody else does. The closest thing to Tebow is Mike Vick or Cam Newton. That's the kind of player Tebow is. Maybe your racial stereotypes are getting in the way?

"Runs like Tebow and throws like Manning." Ha!

On "trading the farm"...that idea absolutely runs contrary to everything that Elway and Fox have said. They have consistently talked about building a team through the draft. That isn't accomplished by getting rid of picks. Its accomplished by acquiring more picks. You don't "build a team through the draft" by trading away picks.

epicSocialism4tw
09-28-2011, 03:50 PM
I swear to god sometimes I'll never understand people here.

There are long timers on this site that still have a raging hard on for Ed Reed (because we went with Lelie instead).

Now when we may be in position to trade up to draft Luck, or another possible franchise QB in a very good class, people are getting gun shy and talking OT/WR/RB/DL/CB??

Why? So we can spent the next 10 years whining about Ed Reed all over again but at QB instead?

The Broncos are not going to be in position to draft Luck. Right now, I'd say that either Miami or Indy are going to get the first pick.

There are too many good players on this Broncos team for them to tank. Its not going to happen.

So the idea that the Broncos are somehow going to trade up in front of a team who likely would want Luck equally badly just doesnt make any sense. There is no magic connection between John Elway and Andrew Luck that would supercede the type of value that he's going to have to the teams that are in position to draft him.

The Broncos just arent going to magically jump 5-10 spots in front of other teams who have the same, if not better resources that Denver has.

These types of trades just don't happen in the NFL. This isn't Ricky Williams. This is the best QB prospect in awhile. He isn't just going to magically fall into the Broncos' lap.

The Broncos do not have the talent to trade for the pick, and they won't have the draft ammo.

Its silly to even get all wrapped up in it.

Vegas_Bronco
09-28-2011, 03:59 PM
Building through the draft is a bullsheet concept, it costs way more to do than to just sign veteran FA's. If you are continually signing high first rounders, you end up poor in many positions...as we are currently paying two starting QB salaries. Eventually, you end up with high payroll and mediocre play - simply because not all first and 2nd rounders end up as HOF players. If this were a 70% sure thing, 'build through the draft' would work...but it is a concept that few understand. The goal is to select talent through the draft through each round. Forget about team needs, just go for the talent that appears to be the best on the board and especially in those areas that you feel you have the best knowledge.

Mike's crew taught us how to win a super bowl and a franchise. They continually signed late draft picks to long term deals and then developed them into great talent. For all the sh..it he got for drafting poorly in round 1, he was one of the best at developing the late round talent into some of the best in the league.

All this said, we get his recipe for identifying and developing talent in the late rounds with the current good moves we've made in the early rounds (exclude McD) and this team is well balanced with excellent depth. We can then build the CB and DL directly through solid FA signings (not the premier players, but the solid performers).

This will free us up to build the Off Line, LBs, RBs, TEs, WRs, QBs and a young safety through the draft in the next 1-2 years. I am not a fan of drafting a qb in round 1 unless the guy can start that year. We won't have that scenario with Tebow on the roster. We will most likely draft our QB in 2013 and it will be a 2-3 round pickup. The NFL has changed quite a bit over the years. A franchise QB can't happen with an amazing defense...the two just can't be achieved, the goal is to get a top 15 qb with a great defense and you can win in January no problems.

gyldenlove
09-28-2011, 04:00 PM
The big unknown is the QB position - Quinn and Orton are free agents and neither is likely to return unless we win at least 8 games this year (in which case Orton may return). In the event we do not resign Quinn and Orton we will either need a new starter or go with Tebow or go with Tebow and draft a new guy to be our QB of the future.

Our needs in priority as I see them, no counting QB:

1. CB - Goodman is not going to be a starter for much longer and how many years Champ has left is anyones guess, Thompson and Vaughn are good enough for depth but I wouldn't want any of them starting.

2. DT - Warren is probably a goner, Vickerson and Bunkley have their uses but we need more.

3. RB - Mcgahee is getting close to his expiry date and Knowshown gets injures way too much to be relied on.

4. MLB - I know Mays hits well and does some good things against the run, but his deficiencies in coverage cost us a TD against Tennessee on that long play after Miller got the sack.

5. OL - We need depth badly, we have not a single non-starter who is anywhere near good enough and I still think we will be better if we get a RT and move Franklin inside.

broncogary
09-28-2011, 04:03 PM
Building through the draft is a bullsheet concept, it costs way more to do than to just sign veteran FA's. If you are continually signing high first rounders, you end up poor in many positions...as we are currently paying two starting QB salaries. Eventually, you end up with high payroll and mediocre play - simply because not all first and 2nd rounders end up as HOF players. If this were a 70% sure thing, 'build through the draft' would work...but it is a concept that few understand. The goal is to select talent through the draft through each round. Forget about team needs, just go for the talent that appears to be the best on the board and especially in those areas that you feel you have the best knowledge.

Mike's crew taught us how to win a super bowl and a franchise. They continually signed late draft picks to long term deals and then developed them into great talent. For all the sh..it he got for drafting poorly in round 1, he was one of the best at developing the late round talent into some of the best in the league.

All this said, we get his recipe for identifying and developing talent in the late rounds with the current good moves we've made in the early rounds (exclude McD) and this team is well balanced with excellent depth. We can then build the CB and DL directly through solid FA signings (not the premier players, but the solid performers).

This will free us up to build the Off Line, LBs, RBs, TEs, WRs, QBs and a young safety through the draft in the next 1-2 years. I am not a fan of drafting a qb in round 1 unless the guy can start that year. We won't have that scenario with Tebow on the roster. We will most likely draft our QB in 2013 and it will be a 2-3 round pickup. The NFL has changed quite a bit over the years. A franchise QB can't happen with an amazing defense...the two just can't be achieved, the goal is to get a top 15 qb with a great defense and you can win in January no problems.

And don't trade your 7th round fullback for a 1st round quarterback and have everyone laughing at you about it.

ozomulsion
09-28-2011, 05:06 PM
Building through the draft is a bullsheet concept, it costs way more to do than to just sign veteran FA's.

LOL If that statement had one iota of truth to it, the Redskins would be a dynasty, and the Steelers & Packers wouldn't be sporting SB rings.

gunns
09-28-2011, 05:38 PM
I always want defense, I think they are as important as a QB, but as a whole, not usually a single player. We need a QB, one that we know will make the future bright. I would bet the farm that we take a QB in the first next year. But I do have a problem trading up for Luck. We have too many needs to give up what it requires to trade up in the first. And there are QB's out there that I'm beginning to find more intreging than Luck. We need a franchise QB, badly.

Vegas_Bronco
09-28-2011, 06:33 PM
LOL If that statement had one iota of truth to it, the Redskins would be a dynasty, and the Steelers & Packers wouldn't be sporting SB rings.

Redskins never had the top 15 qb or a good defense. i can play too - take the first sentence of anyone's post and apply it to the last...it works.


Pittsburgh Steelers FA Signings last year
QB Byron Leftwich Signed Free Agent Pittsburgh Steelers

RB Dwayne Wright Signed Philadelphia Eagles Pittsburgh Steelers

FB Frank Summers Re-signed Free Agent Pittsburgh Steelers

WR Arnaz Battle Signed San Francisco 49ers Pittsburgh Steelers

WR Antwaan Randle El Signed Washington Redskins Pittsburgh Steelers

P Jeremy Kapinos Signed Indianapolis Colts Pittsburgh Steelers

OT Flozell Adams Signed Dallas Cowboys Pittsburgh Steelers

OT Jonathan Scott Signed Buffalo Bills Pittsburgh Steelers

OT Fenuki Tupou Signed Free Agent Pittsburgh Steelers

LB Larry Foote Signed Free Agent Pittsburgh Steelers

SS Will Allen Signed Tampa Bay Buccaneers Pittsburgh Steelers

Green BAy Packers FA Signings
LB Matt Wilhelm Signed San Francisco 49ers Green Bay Packers

SS Anthony Levine Signed Free Agent Green Bay Packers

SS Charlie Peprah Signed Atlanta Falcons Green Bay Packers

DL Howard Green Signed New York Jets Green Bay Packers

OG Evan Dietrich-Smith Signed Free Agent Green Bay Packers

RB James X. Johnson Signed Free Agent Green Bay Packers

RB Dimitri Nance Signed Atlanta Falcons Green Bay Packers

WR Chastin West Signed Free Agent Green Bay Packers

TE Spencer Havner Signed Detroit Lions Green Bay Packers

TE Evan Moore Signed Cleveland Browns Green Bay Packers

OT Chris Campbell Signed Free Agent Green Bay Packers


Bullshizz they built/build through the draft :strong:

gyldenlove
09-28-2011, 06:45 PM
Key Steelers players:

Ben Roethlisberger - drafted by Steelers
James Harrison - PS signee
Lawrence Timmons - drafted by Steelers
Casey Hampton - drafted by Steelers
Lamar Woodley - drafted by Steelers
Troy Polamalu - drafted by Steelers
Hines Ward - drafted by Steelers
Santonio Holmes - drafted by Steelers

Packers:

Aaron Rodgers - drafted by Packers
Greg Jennings - drafted by Packers
Jermichael Finley - drafted by Packers
Clay Matthews - drafted by Packers
Donald Driver - drafted by Packers
Charles Woodson - FA signing
BJ Raji - drafted by Packers
Cullen Jenkins - UFA by Packers

Vegas_Bronco
09-28-2011, 07:07 PM
Key Steelers players:

Ben Roethlisberger - drafted by Steelers
James Harrison - PS signee
Lawrence Timmons - drafted by Steelers
Casey Hampton - drafted by Steelers
Lamar Woodley - drafted by Steelers
Troy Polamalu - drafted by Steelers
Hines Ward - drafted by Steelers
Santonio Holmes - drafted by Steelers

Packers:

Aaron Rodgers - drafted by Packers
Greg Jennings - drafted by Packers
Jermichael Finley - drafted by Packers
Clay Matthews - drafted by Packers
Donald Driver - drafted by Packers
Charles Woodson - FA signing
BJ Raji - drafted by Packers
Cullen Jenkins - UFA by Packers

Both have Top 15 qbs...and good defensive units. Not our situation unfortunately.

Polster60
09-28-2011, 07:22 PM
it's essential to build through the draft in this new era of the NFL,especially now with the new cba. Rookie contracts will now be at a premium to teams, instead of being overvalued in previous years. Now veterans will be receiving the larger contracts. It is very important to draft well, anyone that says otherwise is a fool.

Ranger24
09-28-2011, 07:23 PM
I know the fans still want an answer to that question, but I get the feeling that Fox and the FO (Elway) have already answered that question to their own satisfaction.

Why did they try to trade KO before camp started then?

Polster60
09-28-2011, 07:31 PM
Go BPA in the draft. I see our needs as DE, LB, RB, CB. If this defense could get good DE to pair with and rotate with Doom and Ayers, that would make our defense much more dangerous. Anyone can see that our back ups right now do not cause much of a concern to opposing offenses.

A LB with some tude would also provide a huge boost to this defense. Imagine Burfict next to Miller and Williams. That would be one nasty LB core. Each can blitz, each can move from sideline to sideline, and can also cover. The blitz packages alone would be fun, cause some entertaining plays.

@ CB I have hope still for Cassius, but this 2 week span has shown me some weaknesses. He still can improve so there is hope. But we will still need to infuse the position with some young talent soon.

DT will be interesting. It is a position that gets overlooked, especially with this team. But I am not fan of drafting one high unless you are drafting a Suh. Historically there have been to many busts. This is an area that can be addressed through FA.

gyldenlove
09-28-2011, 08:17 PM
Both have Top 15 qbs...and good defensive units. Not our situation unfortunately.

How do you define a top 15 QB?

Last year Orton was 10th in yards, 15th in rating, the year before he was 11th in yards and 14th in rating - sounds like a top 15 QB to me.

Vegas_Bronco
09-28-2011, 08:33 PM
How do you define a top 15 QB?

Last year Orton was 10th in yards, 15th in rating, the year before he was 11th in yards and 14th in rating - sounds like a top 15 QB to me.

Good point...he definitely had the stats to qualify as a top 15...but 1 year previous to these 3 staggering stat packed years by Orton, Jay Cutler was ranked as #8 in the NFL in Qbs.

Orton had this as a review when we picked him up with a ranking of 27 out of 32 qbs in the NFL: Well, he's better than Rex Grossman. Then again, so am I. Orton did almost lead the Bears into the playoffs, despite ranking 25th in the NFL with a 79.6 passer rating. He tossed 18 touchdowns and 12 interceptions in 15 games of play. Orton is a decent quarterback, but could use a playmaker to expose his talent. What's the difference between him and a guy like Joe Flacco or Matt Schuab or Kerry Collins? Nothing, really.

Doesn't this sound familar?

The dude ain't going to win it all without one of the best defenses ever...you'd have to sell the farm just to build a defense big enough to sustain his lack of scores.

That said...this isn't an Orton thread so I'm done.

maher_tyler
09-28-2011, 08:58 PM
Key Steelers players:

Ben Roethlisberger - drafted by Steelers
James Harrison - PS signee
Lawrence Timmons - drafted by Steelers
Casey Hampton - drafted by Steelers
Lamar Woodley - drafted by Steelers
Troy Polamalu - drafted by Steelers
Hines Ward - drafted by Steelers
Santonio Holmes - drafted by Steelers

Packers:

Aaron Rodgers - drafted by Packers
Greg Jennings - drafted by Packers
Jermichael Finley - drafted by Packers
Clay Matthews - drafted by Packers
Donald Driver - drafted by Packers
Charles Woodson - FA signing
BJ Raji - drafted by Packers
Cullen Jenkins - UFA by Packers

Huh?

I agree, we need to build through the draft. We also need a top 10 QB! We need to hit on our lower level draft picks. When was the last time the Steelers, Pats etc picked in the top 10-15??

pricejj
09-28-2011, 09:04 PM
i don't know how much blame can be put on Kuper about the OL play. he has been sandwiched between a past his prime in the wrong scheme center and an ok RT a rookie and a backup in 2010, a rookie and a mediocre center in 2011

the past 3 years the right side of the line has just been weak. when Kuper had a healthy Ryan Harris with him and Weigman in the proper scheme for his abilities the line looked just fine and his play was good.

but take away the ZBS and you took away Weigman's effectiveness, then he worked with a rookie center who isn't very good and an injured Harris and his backup, then now a rookie RT and a still mediocre center.

Kuper may be small by today's standards but i really don't think he is a major problem on the line.

i say find a veteran center next year to hold down the spot while we groom someone or find someone in the draft. move Franklin inside next to Clady and draft the best RT in the draft next year.

Sounds good to me... I will lay off Kuper, at least he fights. Am down with this plan. But I will reserve the right for BPA of:

QB, DT, OL (in round 1)

ZONA
09-28-2011, 10:52 PM
Long long way to go till next summer and lots can happen. Luck could suffer a brutal injury that would shake that entire draft up. The kids from Oklahoma and Arizona have looked pretty damn good this year as well. Both should be off the board easily by middle of the 2nd at the latest.

I agree though, this team needs to figure out WTF is going on at QB. You can't keep these 3 again next year. You have to figure out if you want to keep Tebow or trade him. I know Elway would like to have Luck but he's not going to get him, unless he gives up a **** ton of picks (probably including 2013 1st rounder as well as probably 2nd and 4th 2012 while swapping 1st 2012).

Hell to the NO on drafting any RB in this class in the first 2 rounds. None of them are that great and I'd rather have a MLB, DT and another CB (and a QB depending on what goes down).

Tyrant
09-28-2011, 11:36 PM
I would prefer we take Burfict at ILB

Burfict and Miller on the same team could very well kill a dude.

fontaine
09-29-2011, 01:40 AM
The Broncos are not going to be in position to draft Luck. Right now, I'd say that either Miami or Indy are going to get the first pick.

There are too many good players on this Broncos team for them to tank. Its not going to happen.

So the idea that the Broncos are somehow going to trade up in front of a team who likely would want Luck equally badly just doesnt make any sense. There is no magic connection between John Elway and Andrew Luck that would supercede the type of value that he's going to have to the teams that are in position to draft him.

The Broncos just arent going to magically jump 5-10 spots in front of other teams who have the same, if not better resources that Denver has.

These types of trades just don't happen in the NFL. This isn't Ricky Williams. This is the best QB prospect in awhile. He isn't just going to magically fall into the Broncos' lap.

The Broncos do not have the talent to trade for the pick, and they won't have the draft ammo.

Its silly to even get all wrapped up in it.

What part of the following sentence in my post did you have difficulty with?

Now when we may be in position to trade up to draft Luck, or another possible franchise QB in a very good class

Atwater His Ass
09-29-2011, 03:00 AM
I would have really liked to see this team build around Tebow. The guy's nothing but a winner. The fanbase could have handled building a team around him, even if it ultimately failed, due to the excitement it would have brought. Instead, we're left with a dinosaur coach, starting an average at best QB, with an offense only my grandma could appreciate, while we all drool over potential prospects while we already have the arguably the best college player ever on our roster.

gyldenlove
09-29-2011, 07:25 AM
Huh?

I agree, we need to build through the draft. We also need a top 10 QB! We need to hit on our lower level draft picks. When was the last time the Steelers, Pats etc picked in the top 10-15??

They were both key components of their respective teams super bowl victories (Holmes even picked up the MVP trophy).

The last time the Steelers drafted in the top 15 they got Lawrence Timmons in 2007, prior to that they got Roethlisberger at 11 in 2004. The Packers got BJ Raji at 9 in 2009. The Patriots got Meyo at number 10 in 2008.

gyldenlove
09-29-2011, 07:30 AM
Good point...he definitely had the stats to qualify as a top 15...but 1 year previous to these 3 staggering stat packed years by Orton, Jay Cutler was ranked as #8 in the NFL in Qbs.

Orton had this as a review when we picked him up with a ranking of 27 out of 32 qbs in the NFL: Well, he's better than Rex Grossman. Then again, so am I. Orton did almost lead the Bears into the playoffs, despite ranking 25th in the NFL with a 79.6 passer rating. He tossed 18 touchdowns and 12 interceptions in 15 games of play. Orton is a decent quarterback, but could use a playmaker to expose his talent. What's the difference between him and a guy like Joe Flacco or Matt Schuab or Kerry Collins? Nothing, really.

Doesn't this sound familar?

The dude ain't going to win it all without one of the best defenses ever...you'd have to sell the farm just to build a defense big enough to sustain his lack of scores.

That said...this isn't an Orton thread so I'm done.

I agree, Orton is not a guy who will ever get remotely close to winning a super bowl carrying a team, hell I don't think he could even get near the playoffs carrying a team he is just too average for that. The last bad QB to win the super bowl was Eli Manning and prior to him Brad Johnson - both of whom had very strong defenses carrying them.

My point is that you do in fact build a championship caliber team through the draft, you can not sign enough quality players in free agency to be a contender.

TonyR
09-29-2011, 07:46 AM
...The closest thing to Tebow is Mike Vick or Cam Newton.

Just fyi, Tebow runs nothing like Vick. There is no comparison to be made here. Completely different styles.

Requiem
09-29-2011, 07:54 AM
Huh?

I agree, we need to build through the draft. We also need a top 10 QB! We need to hit on our lower level draft picks. When was the last time the Steelers, Pats etc picked in the top 10-15??

Holmes was drafted by the Steelers and was MVP of Super Bowl XLIII.

Chris
09-29-2011, 08:09 AM
Updated gyldenlove's players with draft info:

Ben Roethlisberger - drafted by Steelers - 1st round pick
Lawrence Timmons - drafted by Steelers - 1st round pick
Casey Hampton - drafted by Steelers - 1st round pick
Troy Polamalu - drafted by Steelers - 1st round pick
Santonio Holmes - drafted by Steelers - 1st round pick
Lamar Woodley - drafted by Steelers - 2nd round pick
Hines Ward - drafted by Steelers - 3rd round pick
James Harrison - PS signee - undrafted

Packers:

Aaron Rodgers - drafted by Packers - 1st round pick
Clay Matthews - drafted by Packers - 1st round pick
BJ Raji - drafted by Packers - 1st round pick
Charles Woodson - FA signing - 1st round pick by Raiders
Greg Jennings - drafted by Packers - 2nd round pick
Jermichael Finley - drafted by Packers - 3rd round pick
Donald Driver - drafted by Packers - 7th round pick
Cullen Jenkins - UDRFA by Packers

Play2win
09-29-2011, 08:09 AM
my favorite part of this thread is people saying that there is no way we can compete with teams like the Bills and Dolphins right now

grass is greener I guess

Green Side UP!!