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View Full Version : Broncos O-Line grades by Pro Football Spotlight


Houshyamama
09-27-2011, 10:56 AM
Please delete if this is a repost, didn't see it anywhere.

http://profootballspotlight.com/broncos/broncos-titans-week-3-breaking-oline-film

If you were a fan that was so upset on Sunday you couldn't hardly watch the game, then you probably missed Cris Kuper and Orlando Franklin drive a defender 5 yards down field about 6 times. Maybe you missed Ryan Clady drive a defender to the ground at 1:19 in the 3rd and then Zane Beadles jump on him to let him know he just got handled.

If you missed all that then you just might have missed THE game. The game in the trenches.

Let's take a look at those grades...

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 11:07 AM
Good stuff. Thanks for posting.

I have been talking about these guys alot here recently because they haven't been nearly as bad as people are suggesting.

By the end of the season, they'll be in synch and the Broncos will have good OL play in both phases of the offense.

schaaf
09-27-2011, 11:22 AM
If Knowshon would have Been able to play these last two weeks our rushing game would have been VERY good. Mcgahee never hit the hole hard once on sunday

OABB
09-27-2011, 11:24 AM
If Knowshon would have Been able to play these last two weeks our rushing game would have been VERY good. Mcgahee never hit the hole hard once on sunday

agreed..

vancejohnson82
09-27-2011, 11:34 AM
its sad that I thought we picked up McGahee for that one reason....to knock through the hole and get those tough 2-3 yards

TheReverend
09-27-2011, 11:37 AM
2.6 yards per carry

/thread

bronco militia
09-27-2011, 11:48 AM
knowsho would have done better?

that's rich!

i4jelway7
09-27-2011, 11:53 AM
Walton gets blown off the ball

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 11:58 AM
its sad that I thought we picked up McGahee for that one reason....to knock through the hole and get those tough 2-3 yards

He does that.

He just doesn't get the 15, 20, 30 yarder, etc.

There really isn't a good full time back on the roster. I think that we got McGahee for 10-15 carries per game.

When Moreno came out, he looked like a quick back with good vision. He really hasn't proven to have either of those attributes with Denver.

I used to think that the team needed serious upgrades all over the OL, but after watching each play of the first two weeks in review, it was apparent that we created some holes at the LOS...not so much at the second level, but there were holes at the LOS. I think that the blocking at the second level will come as the OL gets more reps and learns to play with one another in this system.

Clady is almost fully returned to form, Kuper is very consistent, and the young trio is improving every week.

There is reason to expect them to grow as a unit over the course of the season, and to maybe be able to get those tough short yardage plays with more regularity.

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 12:01 PM
Walton gets blown off the ball

He doesn't really get blown off the ball anymore. At least that's not something that has been happening with regularity. Not to the point where you would use a statement like that to describe general trends in his play.

Simple Jake
09-27-2011, 12:01 PM
I like that our oline has a hit you in the mouth attitude like that.. I think this young line has a bright future.. not sure about walton though

Ray Finkle
09-27-2011, 12:04 PM
Walton gets blown off the ball

I haven't seen that nearly as much as last year. It's a young line, they like getting nasty and have a chance to improve.

Kaylore
09-27-2011, 12:05 PM
I like that our oline has a hit you in the mouth attitude like that.. I think this young line has a bright future.. not sure about walton though

I agree on all points. I think adding some more talent if for no other reason than competition would be a huge plus. However adding some more speed at the running back position and a QB that can move at the level of a forty year old human and make the safeties give a crap about what happens more than twelves yards down field from the line of scrimmage would make this line look way, way better.

The Joker
09-27-2011, 12:08 PM
"Kuper then shoves him to the ground and falls on him and starts giving him the business."

Over under on how many times Kaylore read this sentence?

Simple Jake
09-27-2011, 12:14 PM
I agree on all points. I think adding some more talent if for no other reason than competition would be a huge plus. However adding some more speed at the running back position and a QB that can move at the level of a forty year old human and make the safeties give a crap about what happens more than twelves yards down field from the line of scrimmage would make this line look way, way better.

I would be pleased if denver went for the best running back in the draft in the first round.. having a good running game would do wonders for this team

Houshyamama
09-27-2011, 12:15 PM
"Kuper then shoves him to the ground and falls on him and starts giving him the business."

Over under on how many times Kaylore read this sentence?

http://i.imgur.com/bfeaM.jpg

Ray Finkle
09-27-2011, 12:27 PM
"Kuper then shoves him to the ground and falls on him and starts giving him the business."

Over under on how many times Kaylore read this sentence?

it's tattooed over his heart.

Gort
09-27-2011, 12:29 PM
"Kuper then shoves him to the ground and falls on him and starts giving him the business."

Over under on how many times Kaylore read this sentence?

it'd be nice to hear KupesDad tell us what was really going on that made Kuper mad enough to do that.

enjolras
09-27-2011, 12:30 PM
Question: Clearly this team has had an issue with balls being swatted away by defensive linemen. How much of that responsibility lies on the offensive line? How much on the Quarterback (identifying passing lanes). How much on the receivers (running the right route to get open in the passing lanes)?

Is it scheme?

I'm really not sure...

jhns
09-27-2011, 12:39 PM
Question: Clearly this team has had an issue with balls being swatted away by defensive linemen. How much of that responsibility lies on the offensive line? How much on the Quarterback (identifying passing lanes). How much on the receivers (running the right route to get open in the passing lanes)?

Is it scheme?

I'm really not sure...

Depends on the situation. The one I remember them replaying seemed to be on the QB. The defender was reaching pretty much straight to his left to tip it. I would think they should at least have to stretch up, and possibly jump a little, if you are throwing the ball correctly. Reaching to the side and still tipping it seems to show the QB was just throwing too low.

bowtown
09-27-2011, 01:33 PM
Walton gets blown off the ball

Thanks for your in-depth analysis. You should write a column.

ColoradoDarin
09-27-2011, 01:56 PM
"Kuper then shoves him to the ground and falls on him and starts giving him the business."

Over under on how many times Kaylore faps to this sentence?

Fixed.

And ewwww, I'm sorry.

ColoradoDarin
09-27-2011, 01:58 PM
He doesn't really get blown off the ball anymore. At least that's not something that has been happening with regularity. Not to the point where you would use a statement like that to describe general trends in his play.

JD was a mauler in college, missing OTA and most of the offseason to the lockout really hurt our young guys the most. He has looked much improved already, I've love to see what him, Beadles and Franklin will look like with a full off season of preparation.We need depth there, but I'm pretty optimistic about our starters.

Drek
09-27-2011, 02:00 PM
I would be pleased if denver went for the best running back in the draft in the first round.. having a good running game would do wonders for this team

We did that two years ago, everyone hates him.

Inkana7
09-27-2011, 02:27 PM
We did that two years ago, everyone hates him.

Haha, rep.

Walton has looked pretty solid this year, especially compared to last year. It's Beadles that looks to be the weakest part of the Line.

Simple Jake
09-27-2011, 02:38 PM
We did that two years ago, everyone hates him.

At least McDaniels won't be picking this one

maven
09-27-2011, 02:40 PM
I would be pleased if denver went for the best running back in the draft in the first round.. having a good running game would do wonders for this team

John Fox likes 1st round backs and ****ty QB's. Wouldn't surprise me.

Mountain Bronco
09-27-2011, 02:41 PM
I don't get the high grades in the run department. Watching the game, it didn't seem like there were any running lanes. Can't do much in the passing game when your QB falls over in the fetal position or can't slide to open up passing lanes so it isn't all on them.

Simple Jake
09-27-2011, 02:52 PM
John Fox likes 1st round backs and ****ty QB's. Wouldn't surprise me.

Come on now, ****ty QBs give him the best opportunity to win

Popps
09-27-2011, 03:49 PM
Walton gets blown off the ball

There's such a huge discrepancy on this issue, I'm hoping someone can do a breakdown with actual video at some point. Personally, I have to think that when we consistently have trouble running between the tackles... people aren't doing their jobs on the inside. I know last year I saw Kuper struggling quite visibly. This year, I just haven't had the time to re-watch the games to see what's happening. But, it sure doesn't look like our backs have very good running lanes.

Last night during the Cowboys game, I remember thinking a couple of times... "wow, look at the size of that lane he had to run through!" I can't recall the last time I thought that during one of our games. Been a long time.

Knowshon would have helped on Sunday. Not for the interior running so much as the ability to get outside a bit, and to catch a dump-off pass or two and make something happen.

Neither Kno or WM are super-fast at getting through the hole. Both backs need to build up a head of steam, and both like to pick lanes when they're not immediately obvious. (Often misinterpreted as "dancing.") I'm fairly sure that when a lane exists, either back will get straight through it.

We saw last year after we finally benched Harris that the running lanes improved immediately, and Moreno's stats instantly got better. (YPC.)

I will say, the one thing I did like Sunday was the commitment to the run. Even with a low output, we kept going to it and trying to wear them down. We eventually picked up a few yards in the running game, and kept the pace of the game in our favor. Unlike the Oakland game where we ran a few times, figured it wasn't working and just gave up.

We need to find a way to stretch the field, too. If they're doubling Lloyd, we need to just throw to Willis deep and hope for the best. The deep ball has been an important part of our offense. We can't just abandon it, either.

broncogary
09-27-2011, 04:02 PM
I don't get the high grades in the run department. Watching the game, it didn't seem like there were any running lanes. Can't do much in the passing game when your QB falls over in the fetal position or can't slide to open up passing lanes so it isn't all on them.

That's because it's a sophisticated running game and you just don't appreciate it yet. :thanku:

OABB
09-27-2011, 04:21 PM
knowsho would have done better?

that's rich!

and true.

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 04:21 PM
Question: Clearly this team has had an issue with balls being swatted away by defensive linemen. How much of that responsibility lies on the offensive line? How much on the Quarterback (identifying passing lanes). How much on the receivers (running the right route to get open in the passing lanes)?

Is it scheme?

I'm really not sure...

That's on the QB. You identify the passing lanes before you throw.

But as many have pointed out with Orton, he locks on his primary receiver many times. So he has become predictable to the opposing linemen. I'm sure that they are coached to stay in a particular gap and watch for Orton's tells.

barryr
09-27-2011, 07:39 PM
The OL is playing well IMO. It is just defenses so not respect the offense because they do not fear Orton so are not worried about attacking the run and making Orton try to pick them apart, all the while being just a pocket passer who rarely makes much happen outside the pocket.

DB-Freak
09-27-2011, 07:43 PM
not a fan of drafting RBs in the first round.

Shelf life is way too short and its rather easy finding good backs in the later rounds.

Archer81
09-27-2011, 07:48 PM
There's such a huge discrepancy on this issue, I'm hoping someone can do a breakdown with actual video at some point. Personally, I have to think that when we consistently have trouble running between the tackles... people aren't doing their jobs on the inside. I know last year I saw Kuper struggling quite visibly. This year, I just haven't had the time to re-watch the games to see what's happening. But, it sure doesn't look like our backs have very good running lanes.

Last night during the Cowboys game, I remember thinking a couple of times... "wow, look at the size of that lane he had to run through!" I can't recall the last time I thought that during one of our games. Been a long time.

Knowshon would have helped on Sunday. Not for the interior running so much as the ability to get outside a bit, and to catch a dump-off pass or two and make something happen.

Neither Kno or WM are super-fast at getting through the hole. Both backs need to build up a head of steam, and both like to pick lanes when they're not immediately obvious. (Often misinterpreted as "dancing.") I'm fairly sure that when a lane exists, either back will get straight through it.

We saw last year after we finally benched Harris that the running lanes improved immediately, and Moreno's stats instantly got better. (YPC.)

I will say, the one thing I did like Sunday was the commitment to the run. Even with a low output, we kept going to it and trying to wear them down. We eventually picked up a few yards in the running game, and kept the pace of the game in our favor. Unlike the Oakland game where we ran a few times, figured it wasn't working and just gave up.

We need to find a way to stretch the field, too. If they're doubling Lloyd, we need to just throw to Willis deep and hope for the best. The deep ball has been an important part of our offense. We can't just abandon it, either.


Clady and Beadles opened up some nice lanes sunday against TN. Our RB's didt not have the speed to exploit it for more then 5-8 yards. The holes are there, the offense needs to get in sync, which I hope comes with time.

:Broncos:

maher_tyler
09-27-2011, 08:59 PM
The OL is playing well IMO. It is just defenses so not respect the offense because they do not fear Orton so are not worried about attacking the run and making Orton try to pick them apart, all the while being just a pocket passer who rarely makes much happen outside the pocket.

If defenses actually respected our passing game, we might actually bust off more than a 5 yard run. They dare Orton to beat us with his arm..which he's repeatedly shown he can not!

pricejj
09-27-2011, 09:26 PM
If Knowshon would have Been able to play these last two weeks our rushing game would have been VERY good. Mcgahee never hit the hole hard once on sunday

lol wut?!?

Simple Jake
09-27-2011, 09:27 PM
not a fan of drafting RBs in the first round.

Shelf life is way too short and its rather easy finding good backs in the later rounds.

Good point.. I just miss the days of having a playmaker at running back and I hope denver looks for one this offseason whether it be the draft or free agency

schaaf
09-27-2011, 09:39 PM
lol wut?!?

It's true. I can't count how many times Mcgahee was at a complete stop at the line of scrimmage, sometimes there was a hole other times there wasn't but I never once saw him hit the hole hard. Even on the goalline He was at a stop at the line.. If he would have hit it at a sprint and lowered His shoulders he would have scored at least twice. The only game they've both played Mcgahee got about .7 ypc... The next game against the bengals in which our line did very good Mcgahee was what? 28 carries for 101??? You are either blind or ignorant to think that Moreno couldn't have gotten much better numbers.

pricejj
09-27-2011, 09:39 PM
The OL is playing well IMO. It is just defenses so not respect the offense because they do not fear Orton so are not worried about attacking the run and making Orton try to pick them apart, all the while being just a pocket passer who rarely makes much happen outside the pocket.

23 rushes, 59 yards...

It's sad when you can't get any yards, by zone blocking, or power blocking...but have to resort to draw plays (a la Sammy Winder era) to utilize the run. That way, McGahee has at least a chance to gain a few yards, by picking the vacant area of the line.

Not scoring with 1st and goal from the 2 is pathetic.

It was a hard fought game...but the run game is simply not there. Can Magazu, make a difference with these guys? Tough to say, but I basically see Mcdaniels offense from last year. Was hoping Magazu would have a much bigger influence on Mcdaniels/Mccoy's "screen/draw" bucket of fail.

schaaf
09-27-2011, 09:40 PM
I understand the disappointment in Moreno.. But the guy is easily the best back on our roster. I've never understood the hate he's received

pricejj
09-27-2011, 09:45 PM
I understand the disappointment in Moreno.. But the guy is easily the best back on our roster. I've never understood the hate he's received

No way bro. McGahee is a real NFL running back. Moreno doesn't have the elusiveness, the speed, or the vision. He trips over his own feet half the time.

It ain't hate, its the facts.

...he has shown a bit of improvement this year, but if it's 3rd and 1 can he pick up a first? Doubt it.

Dagmar
09-27-2011, 09:53 PM
I understand the disappointment in Moreno.. But the guy is easily the best back on our roster. I've never understood the hate he's received

I agree with this opinion, he's not a top 10 back but he's definitely our best. I don't plan on trying to argue that on here though, as I'm in the tiny minority.

schaaf
09-27-2011, 09:56 PM
No way bro. McGahee is a real NFL running back. Moreno doesn't have the elusiveness, the speed, or the vision. He trips over his own feet half the time.

It ain't hate, its the facts.

...he has shown a bit of improvement this year, but if it's 3rd and 1 can he pick up a first? Doubt it.

Obviously Mcgahee can't either, he had a 2nd and 1, 3rd and 1, 4th and 1... And like I said if he would have hit the line of scrimmage with some speed instead of stopping he would have scored every time

Simple Jake
09-27-2011, 09:59 PM
I agree with this opinion, he's not a top 10 back but he's definitely our best. I don't plan on trying to argue that on here though, as I'm in the tiny minority.

If only he could stay healthy.. I do agree he's the best back on the roster.. this season could be his last shot

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 10:01 PM
23 rushes, 59 yards...

It's sad when you can't get any yards, by zone blocking, or power blocking...but have to resort to draw plays (a la Sammy Winder era) to utilize the run. That way, McGahee has at least a chance to gain a few yards, by picking the vacant area of the line.

Not scoring with 1st and goal from the 2 is pathetic.

It was a hard fought game...but the run game is simply not there. Can Magazu, make a difference with these guys? Tough to say, but I basically see Mcdaniels offense from last year. Was hoping Magazu would have a much bigger influence on Mcdaniels/Mccoy's "screen/draw" bucket of fail.

The Broncos OL is getting better.

They did a fantastic job pass blocking in both of the past two games. The run blocking was not as good, but it is improved. Walton and Beadles both are so much better than they were last year that they're hard to recognize. Walton specifically. He was pretty bad last year...he made alot of mistakes.

Right now the OL looks as though theyre still learning their reads and assignments and arent really familiar with each other within this system. They have managed to be outstanding in the passing game anyway.

I think that the OL, TE, and WR are the positions we as Broncos fans can look at and say 'the future is pretty much settled there".

That One Guy
09-27-2011, 10:09 PM
not a fan of drafting RBs in the first round.

Shelf life is way too short and its rather easy finding good backs in the later rounds.

Anyone can run behind a good OL. Even the best struggle to run behind a bad one.

pricejj
09-27-2011, 10:11 PM
It's true. I can't count how many times Mcgahee was at a complete stop at the line of scrimmage, sometimes there was a hole other times there wasn't but I never once saw him hit the hole hard. Even on the goalline He was at a stop at the line.. If he would have hit it at a sprint and lowered His shoulders he would have scored at least twice. The only game they've both played Mcgahee got about .7 ypc... The next game against the bengals in which our line did very good Mcgahee was what? 28 carries for 101??? You are either blind or ignorant to think that Moreno couldn't have gotten much better numbers.

There were no holes. McGahee did excellent to get what he got. I could be blind and ignorant with an STD and that won't get Moreno over 100 (except maybe against the chefs).

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 10:13 PM
Anyone can run behind a good OL. Even the best struggle to run behind a bad one.

As evidenced by their inconsistency, our young line is capable but still learning the ropes.

One week a sub-par back, McGahee, goes for 100 yards and the next week he runs for 3 yards/carry.

A better back definitely would make a difference here though. We currently do not have a back who can break the big play.

We had one last season (Buckhalter) who was injured all the time, but that guy was definitely capable of the big play.

Denver needs a home run threat in the backfield. Not just for the 80-yard run, but for the 20, 30, 40 yard runs.

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 10:14 PM
There were no holes. McGahee did excellent to get what he got. I could be blind and ignorant with an STD and that won't get Moreno over 100 (except maybe against the chefs).

I'm about to start re-watching the Titans game so I don't know for sure about that one, but I can tell you for sure that there were holes against the Bengals.

pricejj
09-27-2011, 10:17 PM
Obviously Mcgahee can't either, he had a 2nd and 1, 3rd and 1, 4th and 1... And like I said if he would have hit the line of scrimmage with some speed instead of stopping he would have scored every time

As I recall, there was absolutely no push on the OL. Mcgahee was hit in the backfield everytime, and still almost managed to get it in.

McCoy should have ran it in behind Franklin...not into the weakest part of the line 3 times straight.

Wasting 1st down with Orton was weak sauce.

pricejj
09-27-2011, 10:20 PM
I'm about to start re-watching the Titans game so I don't know for sure about that one, but I can tell you for sure that there were holes against the Bengals.

Bengals were the 4th worst team in the NFL last year..McGahee had some very good runs...
OL played decent...still doesn't change the fact that we can't run against above average rushing defenses.

pricejj
09-27-2011, 10:27 PM
As evidenced by their inconsistency, our young line is capable but still learning the ropes.

One week a sub-par back, McGahee, goes for 100 yards and the next week he runs for 3 yards/carry.

A better back definitely would make a difference here though. We currently do not have a back who can break the big play.

We had one last season (Buckhalter) who was injured all the time, but that guy was definitely capable of the big play.

Denver needs a home run threat in the backfield. Not just for the 80-yard run, but for the 20, 30, 40 yard runs.

McGahee is decent man...would be nice to draft another RB, but when? Not 1st or 2nd round. If Tebow doesn't prove he can start in the next 13 games, we will draft an QB in round 1. DL or CB round 2.

Beadles and Walton were the 4th and 5th rated prospects at their position when drafted. Average starting OL career length is what, 8 years? That puts them at the bottom of the league talent wise, any way you slice it.

Houshyamama
09-27-2011, 10:33 PM
McGahee is decent man...would be nice to draft another RB, but when? Not 1st or 2nd round. If Tebow doesn't prove he can start in the next 13 games, we will draft an QB in round 1. DL or CB round 2.

Beadles and Walton were the 4th and 5th rated prospects at their position when drafted. Average starting OL career length is what, 8 years? That puts them at the bottom of the league talent wise, any way you slice it.

Everyone knows NFL players always turn out exactly like their pre-draft rankings would indicate.

OABB
09-27-2011, 10:47 PM
There were no holes. McGahee did excellent to get what he got. I could be blind and ignorant with an STD and that won't get Moreno over 100 (except maybe against the chefs).

maybe you arent blind with an std...but you are stupid. so there's that.

you cant give credit to mcgahee (when hes been worse than knowshon) while ragging on knowshon without looking like a tool.

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 11:00 PM
McGahee is decent man...would be nice to draft another RB, but when? Not 1st or 2nd round. If Tebow doesn't prove he can start in the next 13 games, we will draft an QB in round 1. DL or CB round 2.

Beadles and Walton were the 4th and 5th rated prospects at their position when drafted. Average starting OL career length is what, 8 years? That puts them at the bottom of the league talent wise, any way you slice it.

Oh I agree that McGahee is decent. He's capable of occasionally having really good games and he's the best goal line back that we currently have on the roster.

But when you look around the league at the top backs, they are all capable of shaking a tackle and making a big play. Part of the reason why our ypc has been low is because we dont have those big runs. Even when our backs get to the second level, they arent able to extend the play.

Denver could get a back like that in the second round.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 12:05 AM
maybe you arent blind with an std...but you are stupid. so there's that.

you cant give credit to mcgahee (when hes been worse than knowshon) while ragging on knowshon without looking like a tool.

Knowshown Moreno - 2011
8 rushes, 22 yards

put down the crack pipe.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 12:10 AM
Oh I agree that McGahee is decent. He's capable of occasionally having really good games and he's the best goal line back that we currently have on the roster.

But when you look around the league at the top backs, they are all capable of shaking a tackle and making a big play. Part of the reason why our ypc has been low is because we dont have those big runs. Even when our backs get to the second level, they arent able to extend the play.

Denver could get a back like that in the second round.

Even Chris Johnson can't get loose without blocking.

If we draft an RB in the 2nd round...we are gonna go into 2012 with Goodman, and Vickerson starting? Sure hope not. Would have been real nice to sign Deangelo Williams.

epicSocialism4tw
09-28-2011, 12:37 AM
Even Chris Johnson can't get loose without blocking.

If we draft an RB in the 2nd round...we are gonna go into 2012 with Goodman, and Vickerson starting? Sure hope not. Would have been real nice to sign Deangelo Williams.

I agree. I didnt understand at the time why management was so willing to cough up the cash for a RB when there were so many other needs to fill. They knew what I didnt at the time and thats that the team doesnt have a big play threat to hand the ball off to.

I think that this is ultimately why theyre going to have to play Tebow some this year too, because he is literally the only ball carrier on the roster who regularly can make the big play on the ground. We may see him run a wildcat type thing as soon as next week, IMO. After the Titans game, Fox talked about how hes learning about the team right now. Hes learning some of the things that most hard core Broncos fans already knew. One of those things is that Tebow is really the only playmaker you can put in the backfield. Tebow is a weapon that hes going to have to use because the Broncos are sorely lacking playmakers. Theres really only one starter right now who is a playmaker, and thats Lloyd. Decker is coming along too.

I also agree that Id rather see a DT, DB, MLB, or DE drafted with the first two picks. Im just coming around to the reality that we no longer have Shanahan here and we cant just plug marginal backs into the most brilliant running system of all time and expect them to be able to break big plays. This Fox system reqiures a talented back (actually two of them).

We need a guy like Ray Rice who is a tough son of a gun who has breakaway ability, can run inside, can pick up tough yards, and is a threat in the passing game. I think thats the kind of guy that we have to start thinking about as the Broncos' archetypal runner. I really wish we would have drafted DeMarco Murray. Thats a third round back who has those types of attributes...plus the blazing speed.

fontaine
09-28-2011, 01:50 AM
There's such a huge discrepancy on this issue, I'm hoping someone can do a breakdown with actual video at some point. Personally, I have to think that when we consistently have trouble running between the tackles... people aren't doing their jobs on the inside. I know last year I saw Kuper struggling quite visibly. This year, I just haven't had the time to re-watch the games to see what's happening. But, it sure doesn't look like our backs have very good running lanes.

Last night during the Cowboys game, I remember thinking a couple of times... "wow, look at the size of that lane he had to run through!" I can't recall the last time I thought that during one of our games. Been a long time.

Knowshon would have helped on Sunday. Not for the interior running so much as the ability to get outside a bit, and to catch a dump-off pass or two and make something happen.

Neither Kno or WM are super-fast at getting through the hole. Both backs need to build up a head of steam, and both like to pick lanes when they're not immediately obvious. (Often misinterpreted as "dancing.") I'm fairly sure that when a lane exists, either back will get straight through it.

We saw last year after we finally benched Harris that the running lanes improved immediately, and Moreno's stats instantly got better. (YPC.)

I will say, the one thing I did like Sunday was the commitment to the run. Even with a low output, we kept going to it and trying to wear them down. We eventually picked up a few yards in the running game, and kept the pace of the game in our favor. Unlike the Oakland game where we ran a few times, figured it wasn't working and just gave up.

We need to find a way to stretch the field, too. If they're doubling Lloyd, we need to just throw to Willis deep and hope for the best. The deep ball has been an important part of our offense. We can't just abandon it, either.

Just my opinion, but the best indication of an OL is how many negative plays they give up resulting in a defender tackling the RB for a loss.

In our prime when running the ball we weren't blowing DL off the blocks or dominating them. We simply were one of the best teams in the league in minimising negative plays so that:

1. RBs had supreme confidence in running to the OL hard without having to worry about defenders in the backfield
2. It gave us more opportunities to hit the home run type of plays
3. And most importantly if you don't make mental mistakes then the OL can instead focus on getting to the 2nd level which is the source of all those big 10/20+ yard runs.

I can't stress the importance of the first point enough. Go back and take a look at Moreno/Maroney last year and it was embaressing to watch those guys slow down and almost stop when the got the hand off because they got so used to being tackled in the back field. Those guys had no confidence and refused to hit the hole hard and that mentality is poison to the running game but it was there for a very good reason since McD was chopping and changing the OL from Daniels (scrub), Hochstein (scrub), to Beadles/Harris etc.

This year, the OL started off like they finished last year, poorly.

But every game since they have been run blocking a lot better and most importantly defenders aren't getting to the backfield.

The bottom line is that's ALL the OL can do. They can't force the safeties out of the box because the passing game sucks, they can't block out DBs because we've got no WRs outside Decker that are healthy.

The OL are doing their part, it's up to the RBs/Passing game to open up the rest of the field.

Orton has had what, one pass thrown over 20 yards? With that kind of output it won't matter how many sub 4.4 WRs we have stretching the field because defenses won't respect it.

That's why I think Tebow will make this offense better. Not only does he have a much better long ball than Orton, but he stretches the defense laterally, making them defend side line to side line because of his ability to take it outside.

fontaine
09-28-2011, 01:54 AM
Even Chris Johnson can't get loose without blocking.

If we draft an RB in the 2nd round...we are gonna go into 2012 with Goodman, and Vickerson starting? Sure hope not. Would have been real nice to sign Deangelo Williams.

Well Chris Johnson is a completely different case. He would be getting much more yards if he just ran down hill because the opportunities have been there.

The problem he's had since his big time season is that he's looking for that home run play every time he touches the ball and dances and goes sideways way too much looking for the big time play instead of taking what's there.

Caveat Lector
09-28-2011, 03:46 AM
Knowshown Moreno - 2011
8 rushes, 22 yards

put down the crack pipe.

Yah, because 8 carries is such a great sample size in which to form an opinion.

I fully expect Moreno to start once he's healthy...

Drek
09-28-2011, 03:59 AM
Knowshown Moreno - 2011
8 rushes, 22 yards

put down the crack pipe.

In that same game McGahee had 4 carries for 3 yards. Your point?

pricejj
09-28-2011, 08:13 AM
Yah, because 8 carries is such a great sample size in which to form an opinion.

I fully expect Moreno to start once he's healthy...

...if Moreno starts, I fully expect him to perform like he has his entire career. Marginal at best.


In that same game McGahee had 4 carries for 3 yards. Your point?

Knowshown is on pace to rush for 117 yards this season.



I like Knowshown a lot. He is a Bronco, and he gives effort. But all of you saying he would have gained way more than McGahee did against the Titans are living in a fantasy land.

The blocking up front wasn't there, and hasn't been since Mcdaniels abandoned the ZBS.

schaaf
09-28-2011, 08:15 AM
Knowshown Moreno - 2011
8 rushes, 22 yards

put down the crack pipe.

That exact same game...

Mcgahee, 4 rushes, 3 yards

pricejj
09-28-2011, 08:27 AM
That exact same game...

Mcgahee, 4 rushes, 3 yards

The broncos rushing attack against the Raiders: 13 carries for 38 yards


Broncos Offense = suck

3rd and 1...McGahee or Moreno?

...that's what I thought.

BowlenBall
09-28-2011, 08:33 AM
I was very proud of Chris Kuper in the Titans game -- thought that he really set the tone for the whole team with his spirited play.

We didn't win, but at least we hung in there tough, and I think that mostly had to do with Kupe's leadership.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 08:34 AM
The Broncos currently have the 28th scoring offense in the NFL, at 17.3 points per game. Just ahead of the Colts, Rams, Seahawks, Jaguars, and Chiefs...all teams I expect to be competing for Andrew Luck.

We are running the same offense we were last year. Mcdaniels' Rams currently have the 30th scoring offense in the league.

schaaf
09-28-2011, 08:37 AM
The broncos rushing attack against the Raiders: 13 carries for 38 yards


Broncos Offense = suck

3rd and 1...McGahee or Moreno?

...that's what I thought.

Thank God its settled! The only play we will ever have to use a running back for is 3rd and 1, McGahee is it! It's okay guys PriceJJ figured it out Hilarious!

OABB
09-28-2011, 08:47 AM
The broncos rushing attack against the Raiders: 13 carries for 38 yards


Broncos Offense = suck

3rd and 1...McGahee or Moreno?

...that's what I thought.

so you say our blocking sucks (which it does and has for years) to defend mcgahee while instantly saying moreno sucks even though he has a superior ypc with this oline...

odd.

I like mcgahee because he is showing all the idiots here that our run game problems have a lot to do with terrible interior oline play.

however, they have been better the last.few weeks and I think its reasonable to assume the guy with the better ypc with bad blocking would still be better with good blocking.


now if Moreno produces poorly with actual holes in the oline Ill jump off his nuts.....but Id like to see it first. like an experiment.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 09:08 AM
so you say our blocking sucks (which it does and has for years) to defend mcgahee while instantly saying moreno sucks even though he has a superior ypc with this oline...

odd.


McGahee 2011 ypc = 2.9
Moreno 2011 ypc = 2.8

Math is fun. You should try it sometime.

I have seen Moreno perform for the past 2 years...I know what he is all about. He does not deserve to be the starter, unless he proves it. Gaining 100 yards against any opponent other than the Chiefs would be a good start.

At least McGahee can eek out a couple yards with no hole...Knowshon not so much.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 09:12 AM
Thank God its settled! The only play we will ever have to use a running back for is 3rd and 1, McGahee is it! It's okay guys PriceJJ figured it out Hilarious!

3rd and 1...
3rd and 2...
3rd and 3...
1st down...
2nd down...
4th down...
...etc.

OABB
09-28-2011, 09:15 AM
McGahee 2011 ypc = 2.9
Moreno 2011 ypc = 2.8

Math is fun. You should try it sometime.

I have seen Moreno perform for the past 2 years...I know what he is all about. He does not deserve to be the starter, unless he proves it. Gaining 100 yards against any opponent other than the Chiefs would be a good start.

At least McGahee can eek out a couple yards with no hole...Knowshon not so much.

was talking about last year as well. too small of a sample size at this point to even argue if we are just sticking to this season. if you want to do that, allow moreno obe game behind this current oline and see if he does better than mcgahee.

thats not asking too much is it?

TheDave
09-28-2011, 09:17 AM
thats not asking too much is it?

His Hammy's seem to think so... again.

Drek
09-28-2011, 09:21 AM
McGahee 2011 ypc = 2.9
Moreno 2011 ypc = 2.8

Math is fun. You should try it sometime.

I have seen Moreno perform for the past 2 years...I know what he is all about. He does not deserve to be the starter, unless he proves it. Gaining 100 yards against any opponent other than the Chiefs would be a good start.

At least McGahee can eek out a couple yards with no hole...Knowshon not so much.

Moreno didn't get to go against the bungles for his carries this year, FYI.

Moreno behind 4/5ths of the same line with less experience, Clady and Kuper limping back from injuries, ran at a 4.3 YPC clip with McDaniels still here running the "no ground game" offense.

So you really think with Beadles and Walton finally showing some growth, Clady and Kuper finally returning to their pre-injury forms, and Franklin in place of our #3 OT (since Ryan Harris never stays healthy) that Moreno wouldn't be able to replicate that 4.3 YPC?

The broncos rushing attack against the Raiders: 13 carries for 38 yards


Broncos Offense = suck

3rd and 1...McGahee or Moreno?

...that's what I thought.

Moreno, no hesitation at all. McGahee proved on Sunday that he gives you exactly what the OL gets him. Nothing more. Moreno has spent two years turning backfield pressure into 3-4 yard gains. He wouldn't be as consistent as McGahee at 3rd and 1 but when consistent is zero yards I'll take the inconsistent guy who might make something happen even if the OL gets dominated.

OABB
09-28-2011, 09:21 AM
His Hammy's seem to think so... again.

im not pleased with Morenos injury history either...but hes hardly.the only bronco.to pull a hamstring or groin or pec...champ has missed many games due to his hammy and he doesnt have an injury knock.

our team is cursed or greek is satan... just dont get why he gets the.knock and not marcus thomas or d thomas or champ or dj or elvis?

TheDave
09-28-2011, 09:32 AM
im not pleased with Morenos injury history either...but hes hardly.the only bronco.to pull a hamstring or groin or pec...champ has missed many games due to his hammy and he doesnt have an injury knock.

our team is cursed or greek is satan... just dont get why he gets the.knock and not marcus thomas or d thomas or champ or dj or elvis?

Isn't this MT first time missing games? + he was a 3rd round pick

D Thomas is an injury bust until he shows otherwise (i think everyone agrees with that)

Champ is on his way to the HOF when he is isn't injured.

DJ is a borderline Pro-Bowl WOLB when he isn't injured.

Elvis leads the league in sacks when he isn't injured.

When KM is healthy (which is not nearly enough) he is a marginal contributor on a terrible football team. Add to that he was highly over drafted by an incredibly unpopular coach.

Unfortunately we need to upgrade the position... I doubt KM is on this team next season.

TheReverend
09-28-2011, 09:36 AM
Isn't this MT first time missing games? + he was a 3rd round pick

D Thomas is an injury bust until he shows otherwise (i think everyone agrees with that)

Champ is on his way to the HOF when he is isn't injured.

DJ is a borderline Pro-Bowl WOLB when he isn't injured.

Elvis leads the league in sacks when he isn't injured.

When KM is healthy (which is not nearly enough) he is a marginal contributor on a terrible football team. Add to that he was highly over drafted by an incredibly unpopular coach.

Unfortunately we need to upgrade the position... I doubt KM is on this team next season.

Thomas was a 4th and everyone on the list (Demarius aside) has shown the ability to BE HEALTHY and productive.

Moreno? Not so much.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 10:04 AM
Moreno didn't get to go against the bungles for his carries this year, FYI.

Moreno behind 4/5ths of the same line with less experience, Clady and Kuper limping back from injuries, ran at a 4.3 YPC clip with McDaniels still here running the "no ground game" offense.

So you really think with Beadles and Walton finally showing some growth, Clady and Kuper finally returning to their pre-injury forms, and Franklin in place of our #3 OT (since Ryan Harris never stays healthy) that Moreno wouldn't be able to replicate that 4.3 YPC?



Can Knowshon replicate 4.3 ypc this year? Can he ever rush for 100 yards in a game (not Chiefs)? Who knows? He was looking decent in the preseason, but is hurt again. McGahee already has a 100 yard game.

fyi...Ryan Harris was not resigned by the Broncos. He was signed by the Eagles, and is out for the year (back)...Franklin was drafted to be the starting RT.

...btw McGahee and Miller bringing back the Mile High Salute is freaking awesome.

I am not giving the OL any credit for a 58 yard rushing game. I don't care how many "fake fights" they start, or how "nasty" they appear to be. Score a touchdown on 1st and goal from the 1, and get a W, or GTFO.

bowtown
09-28-2011, 10:05 AM
Thomas was a 4th and everyone on the list (Demarius aside) has shown the ability to BE HEALTHY and productive.

Moreno? Not so much.

Also, Thomas can do backflips. If Moreno could do a backflip, he could get hurt as much as he wants.