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v2micca
09-27-2011, 09:25 AM
I would love to be wrong, but I just can't see Orton elevating his game in the next two weeks to the point were we actually steal on from either the Packers or the Chargers. God, I wish I was wrong, but I just can't bring myself to believe.

The one thing I can believe in is that after a 1-4 start, Fox will finally make a change at QB after the bye week. As others have noted, it will probably be to Quinn. But, after watching 3 games of Orton's nonsense, God help me, I'll take it.

oubronco
09-27-2011, 09:28 AM
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.hdforums.com/get/forum/images/smilies/icon_slap2.gif

Taco John
09-27-2011, 09:30 AM
I would love to be wrong, but I just can't see Orton elevating his game in the next two weeks to the point were we actually steal on from either the Packers or the Chargers. God, I wish I was wrong, but I just can't bring myself to believe.

The one thing I can believe in is that after a 1-4 start, Fox will finally make a change at QB after the bye week. As others have noted, it will probably be to Quinn. But, after watching 3 games of Orton's nonsense, God help me, I'll take it.

In that game, 2 games and what... 2 quarters until the Tebow experiment is finally underway?

v2micca
09-27-2011, 09:32 AM
In that game, 2 games and what... 2 quarters until the Tebow experiment is finally underway?

You have a higher opinion of Quinn than I do.

jhns
09-27-2011, 09:36 AM
If he switched from Orton to Quinn, I would pound my head against the wall. Quinn isn't new to this league. He finished this preseason looking just like the garbage player he has always been. Orton has easily shown that he is better than Quinn. You will regret wanting him in if it happens. Fox will be gone pretty fast if it happens.

They need to put in the QB that has proven to be more productive than the starter. I don't care if they don't think he can play. It is very stupid to not at least see if he continues being a LOT more productive than Orton in real games. The fact that Orton was just handed the starting job after being outplayed by so much, really makes me worry about the future of this team with this front office.

Dagmar
09-27-2011, 09:36 AM
What happens if we beat SD?

Agamemnon
09-27-2011, 09:39 AM
People keep telling themselves a story around here about how Orton is going to get benched after the bye. Unfortunately there is zero evidence of this. It's 100% pure speculation without any basis, and will likely lead to disappointment. They don't want Tebow on the field. That is crystal clear, and isn't likely to change after a mere five games. As far as Quinn goes, he's not an improvement. The results will likely be as bad if not worse with him in there.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm learning to expect the worst as a Broncos fan anymore.

Dagmar
09-27-2011, 09:42 AM
People keep telling themselves a story around here about how Orton is going to get benched after the bye. Unfortunately there is zero evidence of this. It's 100% pure speculation without any basis, and will likely lead to disappointment. They don't want Tebow on the field. That is crystal clear, and isn't likely to change after a mere five games.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm learning to expect the worst as a Broncos fan anymore.

Fox wasn't as emphatic in his support for Orton yesterday I don't think. He kept talking about right now and wouldn't comment on the future. We WILL make a change at some point this year, I just hope it's not too late when we do.

v2micca
09-27-2011, 09:42 AM
Hey, I'm just trying to find something that I can believe in. You may be right. But I have an easier time believing that we will finally be done with Orton starting after the bye than I do believing that we will take one from Green Bay or San Diego. A man needs hope to keep going through the hard times. Let me have this.

Kaylore
09-27-2011, 09:45 AM
If we keep losing, and then the infamous "8 games" is over, meaning Tebow cannot take more than 50% of the snaps and have his escalators kick in, and Tebow still isn't playing, its going to be interesting to see what people are going to do.

Agamemnon
09-27-2011, 11:04 AM
If we keep losing, and then the infamous "8 games" is over, meaning Tebow cannot take more than 50% of the snaps and have his escalators kick in, and Tebow still isn't playing, its going to be interesting to see what people are going to do.

If we are sitting at 2-6 or worse and Orton is still playing it's going to get VERY ugly.

TheReverend
09-27-2011, 11:07 AM
If we keep losing, and then the infamous "8 games" is over, meaning Tebow cannot take more than 50% of the snaps and have his escalators kick in, and Tebow still isn't playing, its going to be interesting to see what people are going to do.

I think it has to be more than 8 games since he started 3 last year, right?

HooptyHoops
09-27-2011, 11:24 AM
I think it has to be more than 8 games since he started 3 last year, right?

I believe you are correct, sir.

cartel
09-27-2011, 11:26 AM
i actually thought orton would be able to play better than this and am ready for the tebow experiment. i'm a little worried about my nightmare scenario playing out though, orton is playing all year and using tebow for trade bait next year.

fontaine
09-27-2011, 11:28 AM
If we keep losing, and then the infamous "8 games" is over, meaning Tebow cannot take more than 50% of the snaps and have his escalators kick in, and Tebow still isn't playing, its going to be interesting to see what people are going to do.

Where's Trevor Pryce when you need him?

v2micca
09-27-2011, 12:01 PM
Like I said, its pretty sad that my greatest hope at this point in the season is that in two weeks, Orton will have taken his last snap as a Denver Bronco.

Eldorado
09-27-2011, 12:07 PM
I think it has to be more than 8 games since he started 3 last year, right?

I read it as 55% of a the seasons snaps for 2 of his 1st three years. He already missed last year, so if he doesn't get 55% of this seasons snaps, no escalator.

Dedhed
09-27-2011, 12:44 PM
What happens if we beat SD?

It will mean we already made the QB switch, and it's looking good.

Dedhed
09-27-2011, 12:49 PM
I think it has to be more than 8 games since he started 3 last year, right?

I can't remember the article very well, but I thought it said that it was 55%over any two years.

maven
09-27-2011, 12:51 PM
What happens if we beat SD?

Then, you sit down during the bye week with Orton's agent and hammer out a long-term deal.

vancejohnson82
09-27-2011, 12:52 PM
I would like to hope that once we get to 4 games under .500 we need to switch

Simple Jake
09-27-2011, 12:55 PM
If he switched from Orton to Quinn, I would pound my head against the wall. Quinn isn't new to this league. He finished this preseason looking just like the garbage player he has always been. Orton has easily shown that he is better than Quinn. You will regret wanting him in if it happens. Fox will be gone pretty fast if it happens.

They need to put in the QB that has proven to be more productive than the starter. I don't care if they don't think he can play. It is very stupid to not at least see if he continues being a LOT more productive than Orton in real games. The fact that Orton was just handed the starting job after being outplayed by so much, really makes me worry about the future of this team with this front office.

I agree.. i'd almost rather see Orton out there than Quinn.. Quinn looks so lost on the field

maven
09-27-2011, 12:56 PM
I would like to hope that once we get to 4 games under .500 we need to switch

I think the Dolphins game is make or break for this team. Assuming Denver loses to gb/sd. Go into the bye with 2 weeks of preparation and still lose to miami, I would expect a change.

vancejohnson82
09-27-2011, 12:58 PM
I think the Dolphins game is make or break for this team. Assuming Denver loses to gb/sd. Go into the bye with 2 weeks of preparation and still lose to miami, I would expect a change.

exactly...I would like to see the change made during the bye week as much as anyone, but I don't think it will happen

Kaylore
09-27-2011, 01:08 PM
I think it has to be more than 8 games since he started 3 last year, right?

Wait, is it 50% of the snaps his entire career?

TheReverend
09-27-2011, 01:21 PM
Wait, is it 50% of the snaps his entire career?

I guess we could just hope someone resigns him as a backup?

BroncoBuff
09-27-2011, 01:24 PM
If we are sitting at 2-6 or worse and Orton is still playing it's going to get VERY ugly.

It's already ugly.

But things would be better if we hadn't hired John, don't you think?

DrFate
09-27-2011, 01:29 PM
They don't want Tebow on the field.

I tend to agree with this sentiment, but I can't reconcile it with the bonus check they gave Tebow.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_15667056

Ranger24
09-27-2011, 01:55 PM
Then, you sit down during the bye week with Orton's agent and hammer out a long-term deal.

Please NO!!!!

ppablo
09-27-2011, 02:02 PM
why start Quinn over tebow at this point.. let's get the tebow era started... let's see what we have.. Orton and Quinn we already know... Quinn was horrible vs the cards this preseason..

Kaylore
09-27-2011, 02:23 PM
I guess we could just hope someone resigns him as a backup?

No seriously. Do the escalators kick in if he starts 50% of the snaps from the time he was drafted? Because if so, he's already ineligible for that bonus.

Dedhed
09-27-2011, 02:31 PM
No seriously. Do the escalators kick in if he starts 50% of the snaps from the time he was drafted? Because if so, he's already ineligible for that bonus.

I think this is the crux of the issue:

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:
55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12,

Given that, they wouldn't be able to play him at all this year if they plan on him being the full time starter in 2012. That's if they want to avoid the escalator entirely.

But you're somewhat correct. He's already past the threshold where he would reach that escalator this season, so if it's a matter of cash flow and they just don't want to pay the escalator while Orton's $9M is on the books, we're past that point.

maven
09-27-2011, 02:35 PM
It's definitely cash flow when the team is 20 million under the cap. And to think, Denver will be in the same position next year.

Dedhed
09-27-2011, 02:42 PM
It's definitely cash flow when the team is 20 million under the cap. And to think, Denver will be in the same position next year.

Not with Orton off the books. If Tebow's escalator hit this year, they'd have $20M+ on the books at the QB position. That's a huge number; far more than any team with an elite franchise QB, and goes a long way towards explaining the sequence of events this season.

maven
09-27-2011, 02:53 PM
Not with Orton off the books. If Tebow's escalator hit this year, they'd have $20M+ on the books at the QB position. That's a huge number; far more than any team with an elite franchise QB, and goes a long way towards explaining the sequence of events this season.

Since the team is below the cap it isn't unreasonable to have 20+ million on the book for QB's for this season only.

I do agree the Broncos are tapped out and do not want to pay anymore money.

Also, there isn't a minimum floor next year so the Broncos organization can run cheap again.

RunSilentRunDeep
09-27-2011, 03:48 PM
Da google is so easy to use. Unless EFX still wants Tebow still learning from the bench in 2013, there's no reason not to get him on the field now, unless Bowlen's check would bounce.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos2009/ci_15667056?source=rss


Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.

Momentum
09-28-2011, 12:19 AM
LOL you dont know John Fox. If anyone besides Orton plays, its Quinn.

MagicHef
09-28-2011, 12:42 AM
If it's 55% over 2 years (cash flow problems in just this season), he probably could have started against Tennessee, he certainly could start against GB.

If it's over 3 seasons (maybe they want to give him all of next season to prove himself without having to worry about his escalator?), he can only play 6 or 7 games this season.

Garcia Bronco
09-28-2011, 12:44 AM
IMO Quinn won't last more than 2 games before he'll have an unexplained injury.

MagicHef
09-28-2011, 01:00 AM
If it's 55% over 2 years (cash flow problems in just this season), he probably could have started against Tennessee, he certainly could start against GB.

If it's over 3 seasons (maybe they want to give him all of next season to prove himself without having to worry about his escalator?), he can only play 6 or 7 games this season.

After thinking about it, perhaps they want to draft a rookie next season, will have Tebow start for a season while the rookie is groomed for a year, then Tebow can ride the bench/find another team while this regime's guy starts. Then they won't ever have to pay Tebow his escalator.

I am now looking forward to seeing Tebow start week 11.

ol#7
09-28-2011, 01:08 AM
Da google is so easy to use. Unless EFX still wants Tebow still learning from the bench in 2013, there's no reason not to get him on the field now, unless Bowlen's check would bounce.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos2009/ci_15667056?source=rss


Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.


Who the eff came up with this contract???

strafen
09-28-2011, 07:02 AM
People keep telling themselves a story around here about how Orton is going to get benched after the bye. Unfortunately there is zero evidence of this. It's 100% pure speculation without any basis, and will likely lead to disappointment. They don't want Tebow on the field. That is crystal clear, and isn't likely to change after a mere five games. As far as Quinn goes, he's not an improvement. The results will likely be as bad if not worse with him in there.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm learning to expect the worst as a Broncos fan anymore.

Quinn will go in for the simple fact Fox has him as the back-up to Orton.
Remember he said both Quinn and Tebow were number two's?
Guess what that meant...

We will then learn how stupid Fox is going to look.
Quinn will make everybody miss Orton.
Then, as an act of desperation, he might finally, or should I say, eventually put Tebow in as our QB

fontaine
09-28-2011, 08:01 AM
Da google is so easy to use. Unless EFX still wants Tebow still learning from the bench in 2013, there's no reason not to get him on the field now, unless Bowlen's check would bounce.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos2009/ci_15667056?source=rss


Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.

Thanks. So it's not just those conditions but other unlikely to be achieved ones.

So all this talk and speculation about his contract being in the way of him starting is complete and utter bs which any sane person could have told you considering they made absolutely no attempt to restructure his deal.

Which means the reality is much worse.

He just sucks and can't beat out Orton!
Ha!

OABB
09-28-2011, 08:28 AM
Thanks. So it's not just those conditions but other unlikely to be achieved ones.

So all this talk and speculation about his contract being in the way of him starting is complete and utter bs which any sane person could have told you considering they made absolutely no attempt to restructure his deal.

Which means the reality is much worse.

He just sucks and can't beat out Orton!
Ha!

how did you get that?

fontaine
09-28-2011, 08:52 AM
how did you get that?

Which part? The incentives or that he sucks (which was a joke)?

v2micca
09-28-2011, 08:54 AM
You know, I accept that right now, Orton may indeed be better than Tebow. I don't care. We aren't going anywhere with Orton this year. If this is a rebuilding year, than g*dd*mmit, play it like a rebuilding year. Throw the young guys that could potentially be long time contributors in there and let them play. Use the year to evaluate what we have in our young talent, determine our needs and move forward. As there are no long term plans for Orton, it just feels that every game he starts is a wasted opportunity to evaluate future players on this team.

Drek
09-28-2011, 09:17 AM
Thanks. So it's not just those conditions but other unlikely to be achieved ones.

So all this talk and speculation about his contract being in the way of him starting is complete and utter bs which any sane person could have told you considering they made absolutely no attempt to restructure his deal.

Which means the reality is much worse.

He just sucks and can't beat out Orton!
Ha!

The incentives are structured so that if he plays 55% of the snaps in any two of his first three seasons he gets the bonus.

So if he starts by week 8 this year and then starts all of next year he gets the bonus. If he fails to start before week 8 this year and then starts all of next season he actually misses the bonus money and would need to take 70% of the snaps in 2013 to then achieve it.

He needs two seasons with 55% or more in each within his first three. He already missed it last year. He could play every snap all next season and still not hit the incentive, it needs to be two years with 55% or better.

Works perfectly with Orton for weeks 1-5, bye week, Quinn is then unable to reach his 70% of the snaps escalator so he can take over. Then after week 9 (just in case the offense suddenly improves and runs more plays per game) Tebow can go in and not hit his escalators this year or next, guaranteed.

He'd need to be here and starting 70% of the plays to hit them in 2013 when we'll finally actually have to play by the new CBA's salary floor, effectively deferring Tebow's money two seasons into the future, if he's even still on the team by then.

fontaine
09-28-2011, 09:24 AM
The incentives are structured so that if he plays 55% of the snaps in any two of his first three seasons he gets the bonus.

So if he starts by week 8 this year and then starts all of next year he gets the bonus. If he fails to start before week 8 this year and then starts all of next season he actually misses the bonus money and would need to take 70% of the snaps in 2013 to then achieve it.

He needs two seasons with 55% or more in each within his first three. He already missed it last year. He could play every snap all next season and still not hit the incentive, it needs to be two years with 55% or better.

Works perfectly with Orton for weeks 1-5, bye week, Quinn is then unable to reach his 70% of the snaps escalator so he can take over. Then after week 9 (just in case the offense suddenly improves and runs more plays per game) Tebow can go in and not hit his escalators this year or next, guaranteed.

He'd need to be here and starting 70% of the plays to hit them in 2013 when we'll finally actually have to play by the new CBA's salary floor, effectively deferring Tebow's money two seasons into the future, if he's even still on the team by then.

Uhh, no.

I was talking about how he has to reach MULTIPLE thresholds, not just 55% of snaps in two of this first three seasons.

Like the Broncos making the playoffs, Tebow receiving QB honors, reaching certain performance thresholds amongst others.

Hence the applied term: UNLIKELY to earn.

Playing 55% of his snaps in two of his first three season alone is/was not unlikely.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 09:56 AM
Then, you sit down during the bye week with Orton's agent and hammer out a long-term deal.

should have locked up Orton in the preseason when we had a chance.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 10:00 AM
Uhh, no.

I was talking about how he has to reach MULTIPLE thresholds, not just 55% of snaps in two of this first three seasons.

Like the Broncos making the playoffs, Tebow receiving QB honors, reaching certain performance thresholds amongst others.

Hence the applied term: UNLIKELY to earn.

Playing 55% of his snaps in two of his first three season alone is/was not unlikely.

Broncos are what? 20-30 mil under the cap? Surely, Bowlen is not worried about a measly $11 mil escalator...especially when fans cease to show up.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 10:02 AM
I would like to hope that once we get to 4 games under .500 we need to switch

2 games below .500 is what I'm calling...

Kaylore
09-28-2011, 10:51 AM
Da google is so easy to use. Unless EFX still wants Tebow still learning from the bench in 2013, there's no reason not to get him on the field now, unless Bowlen's check would bounce.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos2009/ci_15667056?source=rss


Mid-tier incentives (Contractually considered unlikely to earn)

Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.

55% in his first two seasons? Well there goes the whole "they're trying to save money by benching Tebow" thing. Unless he becomes the starter this Sunday, its mathematically impossible for him to get his bonus.

bendog
09-28-2011, 10:57 AM
Deer season starts Oct 1.

Pendejo
09-28-2011, 11:00 AM
55% in his first two seasons? Well there goes the whole "they're trying to save money by benching Tebow" thing. Unless he becomes the starter this Sunday, its mathematically impossible for him to get his bonus.

Two of his first three seasons. Not just the first two.

MagicHef
09-28-2011, 11:10 AM
55% in his first two seasons? Well there goes the whole "they're trying to save money by benching Tebow" thing. Unless he becomes the starter this Sunday, its mathematically impossible for him to get his bonus.

From the wording, I believe that each season is looked at separately to determine if he has played 55% in that season alone. He must meet the requirements in 2 separate seasons to get his bonus. Therefore, he could play 54.9% or less of the snaps this season, and then he would be able to play 100% of the snaps next season without meeting his escalator. He would have to play 69.9% or less of the snaps in 2013 to not get his bonus then, but I'm not sure if it really matters at that point because then the salary floor will be in effect, so the amount Bowlen pays total will already be set.

strafen
09-28-2011, 11:45 AM
2 games below .500 is what I'm calling...I still think week 7 is when changes will have been made. That's the week following our bye-week.
We play at Miami in week 7 and in case you're wondering, Detroit week 8 at home.
Tough stretch. It just gets ugly from then on...
So, in my opinion, they're going to play this one out close to the vest.
Where we are by week 7 and what we do or don't do, will speak volumes about the organization from the F.O down to the coaching staff...

It will show what lies ahead for this team in the future...

OABB
09-28-2011, 11:59 AM
55% in his first two seasons? Well there goes the whole "they're trying to save money by benching Tebow" thing. Unless he becomes the starter this Sunday, its mathematically impossible for him to get his bonus.

isnt the issue(if true) double paying Teebs AND orton. am I confused with why a few guys are saying this dispells the rumors.

broncocalijohn
09-28-2011, 12:11 PM
Hey, I'm just trying to find something that I can believe in. You may be right. But I have an easier time believing that we will finally be done with Orton starting after the bye than I do believing that we will take one from Green Bay or San Diego. A man needs hope to keep going through the hard times. Let me have this.

Packers defense has shown to give up big yards in at least the first two games. Orton has proven to put up yards but it is the scoring that has been a huge problem. Not sure if this game will come down to Orton or not but Packers offense is what worries me. This is a huge test for our defense and praying more starters are back in for the game.

uplink
09-28-2011, 01:19 PM
Orton is a master at doing just enough to keep his starting gig. Too bad that means a losing record though for the team. I see him playing all year long, that seems to be the trend. Can only hope Tebow gets a shot somehow.

v2micca
09-28-2011, 01:19 PM
Packers defense has shown to give up big yards in at least the first two games. Orton has proven to put up yards but it is the scoring that has been a huge problem. Not sure if this game will come down to Orton or not but Packers offense is what worries me. This is a huge test for our defense and praying more starters are back in for the game.


You know, I've actually been pretty happy with our Defense so far this year. The only time I felt we really got pushed around was by the Raiders, who are a much better team than a lot of people realize. I've been happy with Von Miller's impact, and have more often than not appreciated our new DC's overall game plan.

Our offense.......well, the offense isn't very much fun to watch right now, even when it is clicking, which isn't very often. I'm not claiming that changing the QB is going to solve all of our problems on Offense. But Tebow would at least make it fun to watch for a while.

Agamemnon
09-28-2011, 01:21 PM
should have locked up Orton in the preseason when we had a chance.

Err...say what?

Dedhed
09-28-2011, 01:38 PM
Wow. The reading comprehension on display in this forum would make high school teachers cringe.

Jekyll15Hyde
09-28-2011, 01:47 PM
I read it as 55% of a the seasons snaps for 2 of his 1st three years. He already missed last year, so if he doesn't get 55% of this seasons snaps, no escalator.

Also I thought the 55% in 2 of the first 3 is moot if he gets 70% of the snaps in 2013 alone?
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_15667056

Are they really going to keep him on the bench for basically more than half of this year, play him next year at will and then bench him for a third of 2013?

Something doesn't add up
edit: sorry for some repost...

bendog
09-28-2011, 01:57 PM
Maybe escalators have zip to do with why he's not playing ... yet.

jhns
09-28-2011, 01:59 PM
Maybe escalators have zip to do with why he's not playing ... yet.

They don't. Incompetence in the front office is the only thing holding him back.

bendog
09-28-2011, 02:02 PM
They don't. Incompetence in the front office is the only thing holding him back.
(tears)

Dedhed
09-28-2011, 02:14 PM
Also I thought the 55% in 2 of the first 3 is moot if he gets 70% of the snaps in 2013 alone?
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_15667056

Are they really going to keep on the bench for basically more than of this year, play him next year and then bench him for a third of 2013?

Something doesn't add up
edit: sorry for some repost...

Holy crap people let's READ the article!


Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.There are multiple escalators at play.

The first, and the one at the heart of the theory for why he's on the bench is this one:55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12 or 70 percent of playing time in 2013 If they are trying avoid paying him this specific escalator this year, they had to avoid starting him for at least 3 games this season. That's assuming there are no playoff games in equation.

To completely guarantee they can avoid this escalator this year they would have to wait until they have played 5 games. This number comes from adding a maximum of 4 playoff starts to the equation to get to 36 games in the first two years of his contract. Multiply that by 55% and you get 20. So 20 is the magic number.

Meaning that Tebow has to start <20 games. He already has 3 starts. With 17 possible games left ( regardless of how unlikely the last 4 are) he could still reach that escalator this year if he started this Sunday and the Broncos went to the Super Bowl as a Wild Card entrant.

When you add in the snaps that he's gotten in spot duty and the possibility that he would have more snaps/game than Orton has over the last year+ he has to sit out another two games to make it mathematically impossible to receive the escalator this year.

Dedhed
09-28-2011, 02:15 PM
Maybe escalators have zip to do with why he's not playing ... yet.

You don't know that at all.

bendog
09-28-2011, 02:22 PM
You don't know that at all.

nor do you. btw, notice the word "maybe" in my post.

MagicHef
09-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Holy crap people let's READ the article!


Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.There are multiple escalators at play.

The first, and the one at the heart of the theory for why he's on the bench is this one:55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12 or 70 percent of playing time in 2013 If they are trying avoid paying him this specific escalator this year, they had to avoid starting him for at least 3 games this season. That's assuming there are no playoff games in equation.

To completely guarantee they can avoid this escalator this year they would have to wait until they have played 5 games. This number comes from adding a maximum of 4 playoff starts to the equation to get to 36 games in the first two years of his contract. Multiply that by 55% and you get 20. So 20 is the magic number.

Meaning that Tebow has to start <20 games. He already has 3 starts. With 17 possible games left ( regardless of how unlikely the last 4 are) he could still reach that escalator this year if he started this Sunday and the Broncos went to the Super Bowl as a Wild Card entrant.

When you add in the snaps that he's gotten in spot duty and the possibility that he would have more snaps/game than Orton has over the last year+ he has to sit out another two games to make it mathematically impossible to receive the escalator this year.

I really don't think that's what it is saying. Read it again, I think it works like this:

Did he play 55+% of the snaps?
Year one: No
Year two: (yes/no)
Year three: (yes/no)

Two of those must be yes for him to get his bonus.

Dedhed
09-28-2011, 02:27 PM
nor do you. btw, notice the word "maybe" in my post.

I didn't imply that I did, maybe or not.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Holy crap people let's READ the article!


Value of Tebow's contract doubles from $11.25 million (including one-time playing time bonus) to $22.5 million if he reaches multiple thresholds, including:

55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12, or 70 percent playing time in 2013.

The Broncos make the playoffs, he reaches certain QB ranking thresholds, and receives unspecified honors.There are multiple escalators at play.

The first, and the one at the heart of the theory for why he's on the bench is this one:55 percent playing time in two of his first three seasons, 2010-12 or 70 percent of playing time in 2013 If they are trying avoid paying him this specific escalator this year, they had to avoid starting him for at least 3 games this season. That's assuming there are no playoff games in equation.

To completely guarantee they can avoid this escalator this year they would have to wait until they have played 5 games. This number comes from adding a maximum of 4 playoff starts to the equation to get to 36 games in the first two years of his contract. Multiply that by 55% and you get 20. So 20 is the magic number.

Meaning that Tebow has to start <20 games. He already has 3 starts. With 17 possible games left ( regardless of how unlikely the last 4 are) he could still reach that escalator this year if he started this Sunday and the Broncos went to the Super Bowl as a Wild Card entrant.

When you add in the snaps that he's gotten in spot duty and the possibility that he would have more snaps/game than Orton has over the last year+ he has to sit out another two games to make it mathematically impossible to receive the escalator this year.

thanks dedhed :sunshine:

pricejj
09-28-2011, 02:36 PM
I still think week 7 is when changes will have been made. That's the week following our bye-week.
We play at Miami in week 7 and in case you're wondering, Detroit week 8 at home.
Tough stretch. It just gets ugly from then on...
So, in my opinion, they're going to play this one out close to the vest.
Where we are by week 7 and what we do or don't do, will speak volumes about the organization from the F.O down to the coaching staff...

It will show what lies ahead for this team in the future...

You are right...this is what I have thought since the preseason.

How ironic it will be, when Orton's career is effectively ended while he is forced to watch the Broncos vs. Dolphins during a game in which he would have been starting for the Dolphins had he not been so greedy.

I think Orton would have had a decent year for the Dolphins, with not nearly the expectations that he has to endure in Denver. He would have likely remained a starter for at least 2 more years.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Err...say what?

just making fun of all the people who were clamoring to sign Orton long term in the preseason...because ZERO playoff appearances in 7 years is just so damn impressive. Oh and I forgot...he has had only 1 year where he completed over 60% of his passes...but he is "sooooo accurate".

2010: 3-10
2011: 1-2

Walks, talks, and plays like a career backup.

What say you EFX??

bendog
09-28-2011, 02:47 PM
just making fun of all the people who were clamoring to sign Orton long term in the preseason...because ZERO playoff appearances in 7 years is just so damn impressive. Oh and I forgot...he has had only 1 year where he completed over 60% of his passes...but he is "sooooo accurate".

2010: 3-10
2011: 1-2

Walks, talks, and plays like a career backup.

What say you EFX??

Who wanted Orton long term? I'm not calling you out, but I don't recall that. Some of us are not sold, and even doubting, on Tebow but that's not the same thing.

jhns
09-28-2011, 02:49 PM
(tears)

I agree.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 02:51 PM
...And to Elway who says "REAL Bronco fans don't root for the team to lose".

Listen here broham. While you have been out chasing Raider's cheerleaders and playing golf...we have been here...watching every Sunday for the past 2+ years, while guys who don't give a crap about Denver Broncos football have been running this franchise into the ground.

If you would have been watching, you would know what we have known about Orton, ever since he got here. What part of "Mcdaniels systematically destroyed this team" don't you understand?

Inkana7
09-28-2011, 02:53 PM
...And to Elway who says "REAL Bronco fans don't root for the team to lose".

Listen here broham. While you have been out chasing Raider's cheerleaders and playing golf...we have been here...watching every Sunday for the past 2+ years, while guys who don't give a crap about Denver Broncos football have been running this franchise into the ground.

If you would have been watching, you would know what we have known about Orton, ever since he got here. What part of "Mcdaniels systematically destroyed this team" don't you understand?

Pretty sure John watches a lot of Broncos football.

You are a ****ty fan if you cheer your team to lose. Kinda hard to dispute that, and I don't see what McDaniels has to do with it.

Inkana7
09-28-2011, 02:54 PM
Who wanted Orton long term? I'm not calling you out, but I don't recall that. Some of us are not sold, and even doubting, on Tebow but that's not the same thing.

Yeah I'm pretty sure that no one, at least here, wanted Orton signed long-term. That's just dumb.

bendog
09-28-2011, 02:55 PM
Pretty sure John watches a lot of Broncos football.

You are a ****ty fan if you cheer your team to lose. Kinda hard to dispute that, and I don't see what McDaniels has to do with it.

There's a difference between hoping your team loses so another guy will play and generally feeling the level of suck means you hope the season ends soon and you get the best pick possible.

Thank God for the Saints.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 02:57 PM
Who wanted Orton long term? I'm not calling you out, but I don't recall that. Some of us are not sold, and even doubting, on Tebow but that's not the same thing.

I recall plenty of guys...and radio personalities... calling to lock Orton up.

I am not sold on Tebow...am not invested in him at all.

Just give him a f**king chance to get a fair shot at starting while games still matter, so we aren't in the same g*d d*mn situation next year.

If Tebow sucks...which it appears that he kinda does...we can all move on...and draft a QB in 7 months.

Whoever wants to quit (Lloyd) because they aren't getting their "numbers" can go play for the Rams.

bendog
09-28-2011, 03:00 PM
I recall plenty of guys...and radio personalities... calling to lock Orton up.

I am not sold on Tebow...am not invested in him at all.

Just give him a ****ing chance to get a fair shot at starting while games still matter, so we aren't in the same g*d d*mn situation next year.

If Tebow sucks...which it appears that he kinda does...we can all move on...and draft a QB in 7 months.

Whoever wants to quit (Lloyd) because they aren't getting their "numbers" can go play for the Rams.

Well, I think this team can beat Mia, and that Orton probably gives them the better chance (which says more about Mia than Orton) so I'm bagging on guys who want to win all the games they can. But after that if Tebow isn't starting, I think it's time for crowds of angry villagers carrying torches and pitchforks to converge on dove valley

Not to be a bad fan, but I think 1-15 is possible, and it wouldn't bother me in the least if it brought Luck.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 03:05 PM
Pretty sure John watches a lot of Broncos football.

You are a ****ty fan if you cheer your team to lose. Kinda hard to dispute that, and I don't see what McDaniels has to do with it.

I don't cheer for the Broncos to lose. I wish we were 3-0 with Orton at the helm. But we are not...is it due to Mcdaniels/McCoy's crappy offense, or Orton's 5 turnovers? Your guess is as good as mine...but we have seen this movie before, and it doesn't end well.

F**k Orton's dropped ball against the Raiders when the TD was wide open.
F**k Orton's tipped ball interception against Tennesee when we could have tied the game with a field goal.

MOST OF ALL:

F**k Orton for saying he doesn't care about the fans.

fontaine
09-28-2011, 03:06 PM
55% in his first two seasons? Well there goes the whole "they're trying to save money by benching Tebow" thing. Unless he becomes the starter this Sunday, its mathematically impossible for him to get his bonus.

It's not just that. Tebow has to reach MULTIPLE conditions including gaining QB honors (like pro bowl), certain unstated performance milestones, the team making the playoffs (with him as QB I assume).

So he could still play all this season starting next week but if he sucks, the Broncos don't make the playoffs then the contract doesn't double up. That's why they're termed unlikely to be earned.

Like I've been saying all along, if the FO/ownership was THAT concerned over his contract then at least attempt to renegotiate which hasn't been the case at all.

Which means the coaches either don't believe him in at all, or he really does suck in practice!
ROFL!

We'll find out one way or the other because he will play this season. All that's required from fans is the dreaded "p" word. . . .
p . pa. . patie. . . patien. . . . PATIENCE!!!

There you made me say it.

OABB
09-28-2011, 03:08 PM
Pretty sure John watches a lot of Broncos football.

You are a ****ty fan if you cheer your team to lose. Kinda hard to dispute that, and I don't see what McDaniels has to do with it.

not if losing leads to benching a loser and replacing him with soneone who can win.

pricejj
09-28-2011, 03:12 PM
Pretty sure John watches a lot of Broncos football.

You are a ****ty fan if you cheer your team to lose. Kinda hard to dispute that, and I don't see what McDaniels has to do with it.

All I want is for the Broncos to win. Kyle Orton is NOT the Broncos "best chance to win". Not now. Not ever.

bendog
09-28-2011, 03:14 PM
It's not just that. Tebow has to reach MULTIPLE conditions including gaining QB honors (like pro bowl), certain unstated performance milestones, the team making the playoffs (with him as QB I assume).

So he could still play all this season starting next week but if he sucks, the Broncos don't make the playoffs then the contract doesn't double up. That's why they're termed unlikely to be earned.

Like I've been saying all along, if the FO/ownership was THAT concerned over his contract then at least attempt to renegotiate which hasn't been the case at all.

Which means the coaches either don't believe him in at all, or he really does suck in practice!
ROFL!

imo it's even simpilier than that. The Den fanbase is really in a unique situation in that it really has no recollection of truly suck. There just aren't a lot of us who recall 4-10 actually being an improvement. Moreover, the firing of Shanny, and then the Pro-Mcd v. holy ****ing **** Pat wtf are you thinking, and the trade Jay v. I want to rip Josh's face off and make him eat it, really fed fan disunity.

Normally, the notion of getting the players to win every game they can and then doing the Sept call up thing, isn't something that upsets fans. Those who bought into McD's bs are tied to Tebow, and tied to that is that there just isn't a lot of patience. It'll take two more solid drafts and a qb as good as Delhomme for this team to even be mentioned as a playoff possibility, and the superbowl is a pipe dream

oubronco
09-28-2011, 03:14 PM
Be vewy quiet McGruber is lurking in this thread
http://media.unboundedition.com/uploads/blog_post_media/may10/fuddy_png_versions/medium_Fuddy.png

Pick Six
09-28-2011, 03:20 PM
I thought we wanted to "Suck for Luck". I'm confused...ZZZ...

ozomulsion
09-28-2011, 03:21 PM
isnt the issue(if true) double paying Teebs AND orton. am I confused with why a few guys are saying this dispells the rumors.

The ones saying that don't understand the wording of the contract.

EDIT: Unless fontain is correct, and we have to make the playoffs as well as the 55% thing. If anyone knows the exact wording of the contract, it would be nice if they could share.

I don't think he is correct, because I think Tebow would restructure his contract in a heartbeat if it meant him being on the field.

oubronco
09-28-2011, 03:22 PM
I thought we wanted to "Suck for Luck". I'm confused...ZZZ...

Haven't you been watching?

bendog
09-28-2011, 03:24 PM
Well, funny thing is that had the broncos extended Orton rather than just giving him the one big check, he might be a dolphin. Not to say I want Orton around

Dedhed
09-28-2011, 03:27 PM
It's not just that. Tebow has to reach MULTIPLE conditions including gaining QB honors (like pro bowl), certain unstated performance milestones, the team making the playoffs (with him as QB I assume).

So he could still play all this season starting next week but if he sucks, the Broncos don't make the playoffs then the contract doesn't double up. That's why they're termed unlikely to be earned.

Like I've been saying all along, if the FO/ownership was THAT concerned over his contract then at least attempt to renegotiate which hasn't been the case at all.

Which means the coaches either don't believe him in at all, or he really does suck in practice!
ROFL!

We'll find out one way or the other because he will play this season. All that's required from fans is the dreaded "p" word. . . .
p . pa. . patie. . . patien. . . . PATIENCE!!!

There you made me say it.

Firstly, you're responding to an inaccurate post and using it to confirm your own inaccurate thinking.

Secondly, you're not reading the text accurately. I broke it down for you very clearly earlier. You keep leaning on the term "multiple", but you're failing to apply it accurately. He needs to meet multiple thresholds in order for the contract to double, he does not need to meet multiple thresholds to achieve sizable bonuses.

There are multiple escalators in play here, not just multiple thresholds. That has apparently been lost on you. He would absolutely reach the first escalator were he to have started this entire year.

db56
09-28-2011, 04:10 PM
I don't cheer for the Broncos to lose. I wish we were 3-0 with Orton at the helm. But we are not...is it due to Mcdaniels/McCoy's crappy offense, or Orton's 5 turnovers? Your guess is as good as mine...but we have seen this movie before, and it doesn't end well.

**** Orton's dropped ball against the Raiders when the TD was wide open.
**** Orton's tipped ball interception against Tennesee when we could have tied the game with a field goal.

MOST OF ALL:

**** Orton for saying he doesn't care about the fans.

Agreed. After we get killed by the Packers and Chuggers it should be over. When Orton ran his piehole about the fans, the people that pay his salary, he showed me how stupid he really is. I lost all respect I had for the guy, J was a baby but had an upside and delivered sometimes. Hey Boreton, want to know why no one will give you a long term deal? what is your record in the playoff's big guy, after 8 years in the league? thought so, you suck and thats the end of it...

PS Learn some pocket pressence!! You cant throw the ball through people. MOve around and find a passing lane!!

end rant

Jekyll15Hyde
09-28-2011, 05:45 PM
The ones saying that don't understand the wording of the contract.

EDIT: Unless fontain is correct, and we have to make the playoffs as well as the 55% thing. If anyone knows the exact wording of the contract, it would be nice if they could share.

I don't think he is correct, because I think Tebow would restructure his contract in a heartbeat if it meant him being on the field.


I agree with this. It appears he needs multiple things to get the doubling of contract. We dont know if there is a list of say 5 things and he can hit any 2 or something to trigger the escalation

v2micca
09-28-2011, 08:30 PM
Pretty sure John watches a lot of Broncos football.

You are a ****ty fan if you cheer your team to lose. Kinda hard to dispute that, and I don't see what McDaniels has to do with it.

I can only speak for myself. I never root for the Broncos to loose. Every Sunday, my but is parked in that seat and I'm cheering for my boys to bring home the 'W'. But, there comes a point were it is just difficult to get excited about the impending game.

The last two years gutted me. I would get so worked up heading into each week, and then be in a bad mood almost every damn week following a game. It started affecting my personal relationships and even my job performance. I just can't be that invested his year. Maybe this makes me a bad fan, but I'm going to have to keep it casual for a while just to maintain my sanity.

fontaine
09-29-2011, 02:53 AM
Firstly, you're responding to an inaccurate post and using it to confirm your own inaccurate thinking.

Secondly, you're not reading the text accurately. I broke it down for you very clearly earlier. You keep leaning on the term "multiple", but you're failing to apply it accurately. He needs to meet multiple thresholds in order for the contract to double, he does not need to meet multiple thresholds to achieve sizable bonuses.

There are multiple escalators in play here, not just multiple thresholds. That has apparently been lost on you. He would absolutely reach the first escalator were he to have started this entire year.

Where do you see that? If there's another break down of his contract please let me know that verifies your statement above?

I agree that he needs to reach multiple thresholds for his contract to double up. I'm not aware of the bonus structure of his contract that you're referring to in relation to playing time specifically (and only) kicking in those escalators.

Here's another source citing his contract details and it doesn't mention anything different:
http://www.onlygators.com/08/03/2010/details-of-tebows-rookie-contract-with-broncos/

I think the confusion is from people guessing where to apply the "multiple" indication as all of multiple thresholds have to be reached or some/any.

It's guess work but looking at it logically, there's no way a threshold like playing 55% of his snaps in two of his first three seasons would be classified as unlikely to be earned so I'm inclined to believe it's not as cut and dry as saying play 55% of his snaps in two out of first three and you get xxxx bonus/incentive.

fontaine
10-07-2011, 03:17 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19059551
Tebow does have a bonus tied to playing time in his contract, but it's hardly prohibitive. It's called a "one- timer" clause, which in his case is a relatively affordable $472,500.

Read more: Tebow's bonus for playing time is relatively affordable - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19059551#ixzz1a5M45jxv
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

All the drama and speculation over his contract for nothing.

tsiguy96
10-07-2011, 03:19 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19059551


All the drama and speculation over his contract for nothing.

as mike klis said, even if they had to pay him escalators, tebow is a walking ATM for pat bowlen. his jersey sales would shoot back to #1, team interest would double overnight. this is truly about winning games, and fox really feels that right now orton is more likely to win than tebow.

jhns
10-07-2011, 06:56 AM
as mike klis said, even if they had to pay him escalators, tebow is a walking ATM for pat bowlen. his jersey sales would shoot back to #1, team interest would double overnight. this is truly about winning games, and fox really feels that right now orton is more likely to win than tebow.

Which is why Fox should leave with Orton.

v2micca
10-07-2011, 07:07 AM
as mike klis said, even if they had to pay him escalators, tebow is a walking ATM for pat bowlen. his jersey sales would shoot back to #1, team interest would double overnight. this is truly about winning games, and fox really feels that right now orton is more likely to win than tebow.


Like many on this board, I am becoming less and less interested in what Fox thinks. However, it is beginning to look like I may have to revise my estimates from my Original post in this thread.

I am now convinced that, barring Injury, Orton will be starting for us at least through the Dolphins game. Fox is just showing himself to be too damn stubborn to change course at this point. If we are 1-5 after the Dolphins and his "best chance to win" rhetoric starts to ring false even to his own ears, he may finally make a move. However, it will probably be a move that very few Broncos fans will appreciate as he goes to Brady Quinn.

I figure that Quinn will start against the Lions and the Raiders for us. He may even get a start against the Chiefs if we manage to steal one of those two games. However, I find it more than likely that the 11/13 match against the Chiefs will now be the target date for when Tebow finally starts again for the Broncos.

So, I will root like hell for the Broncos, hoping that my gut feelings are dead wrong and we win all of these games. But, I just can't shake the feeling that the next 4 Sundays just aren't going to be that much fun.

And it is beginning to make me angry that 4 more weeks of uninspired play feels like some sort of mandatory sentence that the Organization is passing upon us before they do something, anything to shake things up.

fontaine
10-07-2011, 07:41 AM
Like many on this board, I am becoming less and less interested in what Fox thinks. However, it is beginning to look like I may have to revise my estimates from my Original post in this thread.

I am now convinced that, barring Injury, Orton will be starting for us at least through the Dolphins game. Fox is just showing himself to be too damn stubborn to change course at this point.

Well in all honesty what did people expect?

We didn't hire an offensive guru that loves to gamble on QBs. We hired a defensive minded coach who believes in a strong run game and immediately made changes to the assistants on the defensive side/changed the OL scheme and assistant coach and left more of the offensive coordinators unchanged.

I think Fox gets too much focus as the guy who is responsible for the QBs, probably because, as Denver fans we're so used to coaches like Shanahan/McDaniels having a direct hand in the QB they choose/develop etc.

I don't see it that way at all. I think Fox personally spends a lot more time with the defense/OL/run game and everything from the assistants he's changed to draft picks/FAs seem to point to that. Fox probably takes the advice of Gase/McCoy when it comes to the QB position, so yeah, it makes sense that he's not going to gamble too much at that spot.

Two things happen this season for Tebow to start:
1. Either Orton gets injured or continues to play so badly (turnovers etc) that Tebow gets the nod.
2. The only other major personality of this team asks for a QB change in Elway. Right now John is taking a backseat and clearly doesn't want to interfere in the day to day coaching but I can see him asking for a change since he's already been vocal about turnovers standing in the way of wins.

It's going to be very interesting how these two decide on the QB position in the offseason though. Palmer will probably be available and he'll fit the mold in a veteran, safe QB for Fox. Whereas Elway probably wants to go heavy in the draft and develop a QB here.

I can't seem them doing BOTH, giving the resources and money already spent on Tebow. . . . or can they?