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View Full Version : Defensive Concerns... Especially moving forward


TheReverend
09-25-2011, 06:36 PM
Large causes for alarm vs the pass:

4th worst in the NFL as far as opponent QB rating (106.8 to opposing QBs). Normally wouldn't care much... but the QBs we've played so far have been:

-Jason "I-Can't-Work-With-This" Campbell
-Andy the ginger Dalton in his 2nd ever NFL game after a LOCKOUT season
-40 year old version of Matt Hasselback with an injured Kenny Britt for most of the game

^ We have surrendered a 67.7% completion rate to THOSE QBs... along with 5 TDs.

We have a total of 5 sacks. Only one was gained without blitzing.

We have no interceptions.

In before "Elvis and Champ would fix this all and had no injury concern heading into the season and it was fine that we completely ignored CB depth through the draft and FA!"

Swedish Extrovert
09-25-2011, 06:38 PM
Well even in the offseason I called for a corner in the next draft.

orinjkrush
09-25-2011, 06:40 PM
i may be wrong, but it looked like woodyard is being targeted week to week and getting burned muchly. also see cassius vaughn being targeted alot. are they weak spots?

Archer81
09-25-2011, 06:41 PM
With Champ and Doom back those numbers should improve. at least you would hope so. But its pretty obvious Denver is thin at CB.


:Broncos:

TonyR
09-25-2011, 06:47 PM
...Denver is thin at CB.


Agree, but if the Philadelphia Eagles are any indication other factors also weigh heavily into this. The Eagles may have the best trio of CB's in the league but QB's are killing them. In their case it's probably mostly due to horrendous play at S and LB. Those are probably factors in our case as well along with our pass rush not being strong and consistent enough.

Bronco Boy
09-25-2011, 06:50 PM
Agree, but if the Philadelphia Eagles are any indication other factors also weigh heavily into this. The Eagles may have the best trio of CB's in the league but QB's are killing them. In their case it's probably mostly due to horrendous play at S and LB. Those are probably factors in our case as well along with our pass rush not being strong and consistent enough.

Yeah can't say any of our LBers have looked good in coverage, although Miller has been doing better than I expected for a rookie.

mkporter
09-25-2011, 06:59 PM
Depth issues at CB are pretty obvious. We also seem to give up one or two big plays each game. We seem to have some issues stopping the west coast style play of Dalton and Hasselback. I wonder if that points more to a deficiency in our LBs covering skills, or if it is a schematic weakness. Allen likes to dial up pressure, and 3 & 5 step drops are a pretty effective way to counter that.

We did a pretty good job limiting the damage they did against us, despite the numbers they put up, however.

Also, we've given up fewer points every game. 23-22-17... We should hold Green By to 14. You read it here first. :thanku:

Bronx33
09-25-2011, 07:00 PM
Rodgers will certainly be a test for our pass D hes accurate and sees the field very well.

broncocalijohn
09-25-2011, 07:02 PM
i may be wrong, but it looked like woodyard is being targeted week to week and getting burned muchly. also see cassius vaughn being targeted alot. are they weak spots?

Vaughn being a rookie, I think he is playing off his man a lot so he won't be burned by the big play. I also think not having Doom on passing downs makes a huge difference. We had a backup CB in place of Bailey, DJ not there and Doom out. That makes a huge difference in pressure and the ability to cover.

gyldenlove
09-25-2011, 07:02 PM
There are a number of things playing in here, but at the end of the day I am not too worried.

I believe in the first games we have played we have sold out heavily against the run and we have been succesful in 2 games and failed in 1 game. I think this is in part because we were so atrocious against the run last year and in part because if you can take away the ground game and force the ball in the air you can create 3rd and long situations which favour the defense.

We have certainly lacked pressure on the QB, Hunter provides almost no pass rush whatsoever, Bunkley and Vickerson are both decent against the run, but do not provide much penetration and we just do not have the depth at DT to rotate in pass rushers since we do not have any.

Our secondary has obviously suffered without Champ, and we are extremely thin at CB as is - CB is definitely an area of concern and I would be surprised if we don't go CB in round 1 of the draft.

I think we do have to keep in mind that this is a defensive unit that is short on talent, we are not going to be top 10 in the league no matter who we play against. Keeping that in mind, we are top half of the league against the run and more importantly, top half of the league in scoring defense - which is the key stat. We saw last year and the year before that gaudy pass numbers do not translate into wins, I would have no problem giving up 300 yards passing and 95+ passer rating in every single game we play this year, passing yards is a very poor predictor of wins (falling pretty much dead on unity in a reciever operator curve).

What I take from the first 3 games as positives are:

1. Improvement over last year in run and scoring defense
2. Giving away many yards between the 10 yard lines in the air
3. Talent upgrades are still necesary at all 3 levels of the defense
4. Depth at most positions is non-existant

This is not a good defense, we are not the Ravens or the Jets or Steelers, but do remember that we held the Raiders to fewer points than the Jets did and the Titans to fewer points than the Ravens did, which is not bad.

broncocalijohn
09-25-2011, 07:04 PM
Well even in the offseason I called for a corner in the next draft.

What round? I am at the top on the waiting list for top picks at DL. You will have to wait your turn.

McDman
09-25-2011, 07:07 PM
I thought Woodyard has actually looked pretty good.

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 07:07 PM
We are only one game out of first, lol.

Oak beat down the jets btw.

Chargers barely beat kc, looks like oak is the front runner.

Simple Jake
09-25-2011, 07:11 PM
i may be wrong, but it looked like woodyard is being targeted week to week and getting burned muchly. also see cassius vaughn being targeted alot. are they weak spots?

Vaughn definately.. man it seems like he gets beat every play.. he seems to get a lot of praise around here too, or at least he did before the season started.. yea he's fast but he cannot cover imo.. we have so many areas we need to address this offseason.. running back, d tackle, cornerback, quarterback, middle lb.. ugh!

Simple Jake
09-25-2011, 07:12 PM
I thought Woodyard has actually looked pretty good.

I agree.. I'd like denver to keep him around

Lev Vyvanse
09-25-2011, 07:17 PM
Vaughn being a rookie, I think he is playing off his man a lot so he won't be burned by the big play. I also think not having Doom on passing downs makes a huge difference. We had a backup CB in place of Bailey, DJ not there and Doom out. That makes a huge difference in pressure and the ability to cover.

You should share your football takes more. :rofl:

DarkHorse
09-25-2011, 07:22 PM
Vaughn is no rookie although he looks like it.


Hell, he has me wanting for some Lenny Walls I think.



Well, maybe not, but much more of watching him get roasted and i'll be calling for an injured Sydquan to replace him.

bowtown
09-25-2011, 07:26 PM
Vaughn is no rookie although he looks like it.



Yeah, you're right he's no rookie. He has that entire year where he didn't take a single snap as a DB under his belt and then a whole month of off season. Why the hell isn't he playing like a seasoned vet?

DarkHorse
09-25-2011, 07:30 PM
Yeah, you're right he's no rookie. He has that entire year where he didn't take a single snap as a DB under his belt and then a whole month of off season. Why the hell isn't he playing like a seasoned vet?

So does that make him a rookie?


Oh, maybe he's a redshirted professional?


Pretty sure no matter how you sugarcoat it - the guy still isn't a rookie - am I correct?

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 07:34 PM
Yeah, you're right he's no rookie. He has that entire year where he didn't take a single snap as a DB under his belt and then a whole month of off season. Why the hell isn't he playing like a seasoned vet?

I was going to reply, but I read this while thinking of a different player and got angry again.

Simple Jake
09-25-2011, 07:34 PM
So does that make him a rookie?


Oh, maybe he's a redshirted professional?


Pretty sure no matter how you sugarcoat it - the guy still isn't a rookie - am I correct?

Wilhite has made more plays than him

NUB
09-25-2011, 07:35 PM
I don't think Vaughn is playing that bad given his position on the team. I think the real liabilities come in from Dawkins and Mays/Woodyard, none of whom have any coverage skills to speak of.

bowtown
09-25-2011, 07:44 PM
I was going to reply, but I read this while thinking of a different player and got angry again.

LOL That could really be any number of players at this point.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 07:46 PM
There are a number of things playing in here, but at the end of the day I am not too worried.

I believe in the first games we have played we have sold out heavily against the run and we have been succesful in 2 games and failed in 1 game. I think this is in part because we were so atrocious against the run last year and in part because if you can take away the ground game and force the ball in the air you can create 3rd and long situations which favour the defense.

We have certainly lacked pressure on the QB, Hunter provides almost no pass rush whatsoever, Bunkley and Vickerson are both decent against the run, but do not provide much penetration and we just do not have the depth at DT to rotate in pass rushers since we do not have any.

Our secondary has obviously suffered without Champ, and we are extremely thin at CB as is - CB is definitely an area of concern and I would be surprised if we don't go CB in round 1 of the draft.

I think we do have to keep in mind that this is a defensive unit that is short on talent, we are not going to be top 10 in the league no matter who we play against. Keeping that in mind, we are top half of the league against the run and more importantly, top half of the league in scoring defense - which is the key stat. We saw last year and the year before that gaudy pass numbers do not translate into wins, I would have no problem giving up 300 yards passing and 95+ passer rating in every single game we play this year, passing yards is a very poor predictor of wins (falling pretty much dead on unity in a reciever operator curve).

What I take from the first 3 games as positives are:

1. Improvement over last year in run and scoring defense
2. Giving away many yards between the 10 yard lines in the air
3. Talent upgrades are still necesary at all 3 levels of the defense
4. Depth at most positions is non-existant

This is not a good defense, we are not the Ravens or the Jets or Steelers, but do remember that we held the Raiders to fewer points than the Jets did and the Titans to fewer points than the Ravens did, which is not bad.

It's been a pretty stellar indicator of wins for anyone playing Denver. :thumbsup:

bowtown
09-25-2011, 07:52 PM
It's been a pretty stellar indicator of wins for anyone playing Denver. :thumbsup:

Yep, however, I'd prefer passing yards at this point to rushing yards. We have a head coach and DC on this team that are secondary coaches. I'm less concerned about that area of the defense eventually getting fixed (not happening this season) than I am about the front 7.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 07:54 PM
Yep, however, I'd prefer passing yards at this point to rushing yards. We have a head coach and DC on this team that are secondary coaches. I'm less concerned about that area of the defense eventually getting fixed (not happening this season) than I am about the front 7.

...That doesn't concern you at all?

Quite frankly, that's the part that has me scared shtless

bowtown
09-25-2011, 07:59 PM
...That doesn't concern you at all?

Quite frankly, that's the part that has me scared shtless

What, that our secondary so far has been bad or that our defensive coaches both have backgrounds in the Slowik area of the field?

Finger Roll
09-25-2011, 08:05 PM
We've been without Champ, Dumverill and D.J. That's our 1,2 and 4th best players on D. That would be a huge blow to any team.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:06 PM
What, that our secondary so far has been bad or that our defensive coaches both have backgrounds in the Slowik area of the field?

The part that they excel at they looked at this off-season and said "yup, good enough!" and the big acquisition at CB was Wilhite... and that the secondaries performance has been like this. And and and and and

DarkHorse
09-25-2011, 08:09 PM
We've been without Champ, Dumverill and D.J. That's our 1,2 and 4th best players on D. That would be a huge blow to any team.


Yeah but what's disgusting is:


Jason Campbell
Andy "I'm a rookie" Dalton
Matt "I should have retired 2 years ago" Hasslebeck

Those aren't exactly cream of the crop QB's yet/ever. Guys have to step up when others go down and when you see 3 Qb's of not so great ability tear us a new a'hole then there's a problem.

bowtown
09-25-2011, 08:10 PM
The part that they excel at they looked at this off-season and said "yup, good enough!" and the big acquisition at CB was Wilhite... and that the secondaries performance has been like this. And and and and and

Well, I'm sure they felt that there were bigger concerns and there was probably a little bit of a feeling that they could more effectively "coach up" that position for the time being. We'll see.. Champ does make a difference though. He just does.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:14 PM
Well, I'm sure they felt that there were bigger concerns and there was probably a little bit of a feeling that they could more effectively "coach up" that position for the time being. We'll see.. Champ does make a difference though. He just does.

He makes a great difference. But he's played 1 full season in the past 5 years. This wasn't something we needed Ms Cleo for.

QBs left on the roster now that we've gotten those first ballot HoFers Campbell, Hasselbeck and Dalton out of the way:

Rogers,
Rivers x2,
Cutler,
Brady

Not mentioning how well Fitzpatrick is currently playing.

lonestar
09-25-2011, 08:17 PM
Get a pass rush with the front four a good one tyat has pressure on the qb pm a co sister basis then throw in a blitz from time to time and Yiur could almost have Mickey the Mope as DBs and be ok.

We have had a premier CB in Champ for very long time and rarely have had a great pass defense.

You win or lose at the LOS.

gyldenlove
09-25-2011, 08:18 PM
It's been a pretty stellar indicator of wins for anyone playing Denver. :thumbsup:

Not really though.

Average passing yards by opponent QBs in Denver wins: 322
Average passing yards by opponent QBs in Denver losses: 208

I know this is statistically dishonest since we have only placed 3 games.

Looked at KO:

In win: 195 yards
In losses: 240 yards

In fact the QB who throws the most yards have lost 2 of 3 games we have played (Orton in week 1 and Dalton in week 2).

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:19 PM
Not really though.

Average passing yards by opponent QBs in Denver wins: 322
Average passing yards by opponent QBs in Denver losses: 208

I know this is statistically dishonest since we have only placed 3 games.

Looked at KO:

In win: 195 yards
In losses: 240 yards

In fact the QB who throws the most yards have lost 2 of 3 games we have played (Orton in week 1 and Dalton in week 2).

lol gtfo dude haha

mkporter
09-25-2011, 08:20 PM
He makes a great difference. But he's played 1 full season in the past 5 years. This wasn't something we needed Ms Cleo for.

QBs left on the roster now that we've gotten those first ballot HoFers Campbell, Hasselbeck and Dalton out of the way:

Rogers,
Rivers x2,
Cutler,
Brady

Not mentioning how well Fitzpatrick is currently playing.

On the bright side, we also have:
Cassel x2
Henne
Cutler
Sanchez
McNabb

maher_tyler
09-25-2011, 08:22 PM
I don't think Vaughn is playing that bad given his position on the team. I think the real liabilities come in from Dawkins and Mays/Woodyard, none of whom have any coverage skills to speak of.

Usually when i see Dawkins getting beat, he's in man to man...

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:22 PM
On the bright side, we also have:
Cassel x2
Henne
Cutler
Sanchez
McNabb

I'll be surprised if anyone (but Cassel) doesn't have a career day against Denver.

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 08:27 PM
Large causes for alarm vs the pass:

4th worst in the NFL as far as opponent QB rating (106.8 to opposing QBs). Normally wouldn't care much... but the QBs we've played so far have been:

-Jason "I-Can't-Work-With-This" Campbell
-Andy the ginger Dalton in his 2nd ever NFL game after a LOCKOUT season
-40 year old version of Matt Hasselback with an injured Kenny Britt for most of the game

^ We have surrendered a 67.7% completion rate to THOSE QBs... along with 5 TDs.

We have a total of 5 sacks. Only one was gained without blitzing.

We have no interceptions.

In before "Elvis and Champ would fix this all and had no injury concern heading into the season and it was fine that we completely ignored CB depth through the draft and FA!"

The BIG PICTURE reality view is there is no way we could address EVERY hole on our team in one off-season/draft. We did a pretty decent job in this draft and certainly have more to go obviously including corner-back. I'm ready for Goodman to be gone after this year and we need two more CB's including a stud-level Champ replacement to start grooming .. what else is new??

But b****in' after every game about what we didn't get done this year is a moot point when we had so much that needs fixing. We give Elway/Fox two more full years to really start turning it all around to a consistently competitive team. If they get it done earlier its a bonus .. but if every week all the hand wringers here are gonna get their knickers in a twist over the obvious ... that we are in rebuilding mode and no where near finished .. its gonna a be long whiny year serving little purpose at all.

maher_tyler
09-25-2011, 08:27 PM
He makes a great difference. But he's played 1 full season in the past 5 years. This wasn't something we needed Ms Cleo for.

QBs left on the roster now that we've gotten those first ballot HoFers Campbell, Hasselbeck and Dalton out of the way:

Rogers,
Rivers x2,
Cutler,
Brady

Not mentioning how well Fitzpatrick is currently playing.

I think we can add Stafford to the list as well...

Requiem
09-25-2011, 08:30 PM
Same concerns as before: thin at CB, nothing at DT and not enough pass rushers.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:30 PM
The BIG PICTURE reality view is there is no way we could address EVERY hole on our team in one off-season/draft. We did a pretty decent job in this draft and certainly have more to go obviously including corner-back. I'm ready for Goodman to be gone after this year and we need two more CB's including a stud-level Champ replacement to start grooming .. what else is new??

But b****in' after every game about what we didn't get done this year is a moot point when we had so much that needs fixing. We give Elway/Fox two more full years to really start turning it all around to a consistently competitive team. If they get it done earlier its a bonus .. but if all the hand wringers here are gonna get their knickers in a twist over the obvious every week that we are in rebuilding mode and no where near finished .. its gonna a be long whiny year serving little purpose at all.

You're right.

We should avoid talking about football on this website.

Good plan.

mkporter
09-25-2011, 08:31 PM
I'll be surprised if anyone (but Cassel) doesn't have a career day against Denver.

If a career day nets you 17 pts, I can live with that.

maher_tyler
09-25-2011, 08:31 PM
The BIG PICTURE reality view is there is no way we could address EVERY hole on our team in one off-season/draft. We did a pretty decent job in this draft and certainly have more to go obviously including corner-back. I'm ready for Goodman to be gone after this year and we need two more CB's including a stud-level Champ replacement to start grooming .. what else is new??

But b****in' after every game about what we didn't get done this year is a moot point when we had so much that needs fixing. We give Elway/Fox two more full years to really start turning it all around to a consistently competitive team. If they get it done earlier its a bonus .. but if every week all the hand wringers here are gonna get their knickers in a twist over the obvious ... that we are in rebuilding mode and no where near finished .. its gonna a be long whiny year serving little purpose at all.

Totally agree!

Requiem
09-25-2011, 08:32 PM
Rev, what corners do you like best in this draft?

I'm taking Kirkpatrick.

mkporter
09-25-2011, 08:32 PM
Same concerns as before: thin at CB, nothing at DT and not enough pass rushers.

Yes, wrong, and Doom coming back.

Dedhed
09-25-2011, 08:34 PM
It's been a pretty stellar indicator of wins for anyone playing Denver. :thumbsup:
The real scary part is that the defense is the better unit.

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 08:34 PM
I don't mind talking about what our many needs are .. starting with QB ... that's fine but blaming the FO for not covering all the holes in one off-season is a bit over the top, don't you think??

A few drama queens here Rev (not you I dont think) are already calling for Fox's and Elway's head in what amounts to a Nervous Nelly melt down if there ever was one!

Requiem
09-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Yes, wrong, and Doom coming back.

Wrong at being thin at defensive tackle? Are you seriously joking? Or do you think that shutting down the Titans running game today means we have quality players there?

And Dumervil coming back? Lol. Having Elvis Dumervil and Von Miller doesn't mean we have enough pass rushers.

mkporter
09-25-2011, 08:37 PM
I don't mind talking about what our many needs are .. starting with QB ... that's fine but blaming the FO for not covering all the holes in one off-season is a bit over the top, don't you think??

Are you new here?

Requiem
09-25-2011, 08:38 PM
I don't mind talking about what our many needs are .. starting with QB ... that's fine but blaming the FO for not covering all the holes in one off-season is a bit over the top, don't you think??

A few drama queens here are already calling for Fox's and Elway's head in what amounts to a Nervous Nelly melt down if there ever was one!

The front office failed to address some of our most pressing needs with good investments or resources.

Some improvements, but not much. (And I liked our draft.)

bowtown
09-25-2011, 08:38 PM
I don't mind talking about what our many needs are .. starting with QB ... that's fine but blaming the FO for not covering all the holes in one off-season is a bit over the top, don't you think??

Of course it is.

Dedhed
09-25-2011, 08:41 PM
Let's give it some time. The defense has looked much improved on the whole, and as far as the passing defense goes we've been without our best players for more than half the season thus far.

I expect with Doom and Champ back we'll improve a bit.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:43 PM
Rev, what corners do you like best in this draft?

I'm taking Kirkpatrick.

Kirkpatrick is ridiculous.

Jenkins is probably the second best and if he can stay clean and show maturity, he'll reflect it... otherwise he's probably a late rounder.

Denard and Claiborne are both solid but nothing I'm really excited about.

I'm meh on Cliff Harris.

Minnifield plays like Alphonso lol.

Hayward from Vandy is one of my favorites to start rising... I'm actually going to go and watch him November 5th because of that.

And of course D'Anton Lynn from my PSU to go to a cover 2 team.

mkporter
09-25-2011, 08:44 PM
Wrong at being thin at defensive tackle? Are you seriously joking? Or do you think that shutting down the Titans running game today means we have quality players there?

And Dumervil coming back? Lol. Having Elvis Dumervil and Von Miller doesn't mean we have enough pass rushers.

You said "nothing" at DT. Bunkley has been solid, and we've had pretty good run defense in 2 out of 3 games his year. That's better than nothing. We do need more talent there, but it hasn't been nearly as bad as everone assumed it would be.

You can always have more pass rushers, but having 2 ELITE pass rushers does mean that it is not a major area of concern, IMO.

I'd rather have an upgrade at MLB. Maybe Mays can be the guy, but I have my doubts.

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 08:48 PM
On another note. The Steelers are so lucky Manning wasnt there tonight. He would have carved them a new one! The Steelers aren't the old Steelers this year.

For that matter the team in Nashville is also wiping their brow to escape with a win today.

We may have shot ourselves in the foot again but we've played each game close to the wire and without a large portion of our playmakers on board.

I'm more encouraged for the future even if more sober about the near term this year.

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 08:49 PM
Are you new here?

Ha! nah just emphasizing the obvious :twokisses

broncocalijohn
09-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Wrong at being thin at defensive tackle? Are you seriously joking? Or do you think that shutting down the Titans running game today means we have quality players there?

And Dumervil coming back? Lol. Having Elvis Dumervil and Von Miller doesn't mean we have enough pass rushers.

I guarantee you that having Doom back with Von Miller will make a huge difference. Sack leader 2 seasons ago has been gone for a season and almost all 3 games of this year makes that difference. How so? Werent we last in Sacks last year without the leader in sacks from the previous year? Bank on it that we will improve dramatically when both are going after the QB.

barryr
09-25-2011, 08:56 PM
On another note. The Steelers are so lucky Manning wasnt there tonight. He would have carved them a new one! The Steelers aren't the old Steelers this year.

For that matter the team in Nashville is also wiping their brow to escape with a win today.

We may have shot ourselves in the foot again but we've played each game close to the wire and without a large portion of our playmakers on board.

I'm more encouraged for the future even if more sober about the near term this year.

But heck, watching Ben at QB, is he really any faster than Orton? I don't think so, and yes, he takes many hits and sacks, but he also has a knack of escaping the pocket when pressured to make big plays down the field or at least move just enough to do the same. How often does Orton do such things? Not much.

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 08:56 PM
You said "nothing" at DT. Bunkley has been solid, and we've had pretty good run defense in 2 out of 3 games his year. That's better than nothing. We do need more talent there, but it hasn't been nearly as bad as everone assumed it would be.

You can always have more pass rushers, but having 2 ELITE pass rushers does mean that it is not a major area of concern, IMO.

I'd rather have an upgrade at MLB. Maybe Mays can be the guy, but I have my doubts.

Our run defense is big time improved even considering the Raider game which was the first with so many of these guys together this year in this new D system, not to mention with the key injuries...

If we get a bit of injury luck and get and keep a healthy Champ back we may well be in the top 10 in run defense by years end and perhaps middle of the road in pass defense?/ Assuming Doom gets fully healthy quickly?

With a full functioning Doom opposite Von the play of both and our pass rush will take a major leap! And even if Doom is out for the year Von will only continue to get better as the season goes on. I'm a bit worried about Doom, he complained to Fox on Friday that his same pec from last year felt like it was being stabbed by a knife....No one seems to have a clue so he's seeing a specialist Monday .. not so good sounding..

Hope like hell this thing isn't a chronic deal?! Having him in the D huddle is HUGE! And getting Marcus Thomas back in the D line rotation with Bunkley ( who is doing well) and Vickerson will help a good deal

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 08:58 PM
But heck, watching Ben at QB, is he really any faster than Orton? I don't think so, and yes, he takes many hits and sacks, but he also has a knack of escaping the pocket when pressured to make big plays down the field or at least move just enough to do the same. How often does Orton do such things? Not much.

Big Ben is so much quicker with his feet and SOOO much stronger and bigger .. no comparison with Orton who falls down if you blow on him .. and fumbles in the process.

misturanderson
09-25-2011, 08:59 PM
I think we can add Stafford to the list as well...

I think I'd swap him with Cutler. Fitzpatrick also deserves to be on the list over Cutler. Though none of them really deserve to be on that list (yet) with 3 likely future HOFers.

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 09:03 PM
Hayward at Vandy does look like a keeper on the rise at CB. saw two of their games this year, kid can play...

barryr
09-25-2011, 09:03 PM
Big Ben is so much quicker with his feet and SOOO much stronger and bigger .. no comparison with Orton who falls down if you blow on him .. and fumbles in the process.

Yep, that is why things never seem to go well when the intended receiver is not open and Orton has to move around to get more time.

24champ
09-25-2011, 09:28 PM
Rev, what corners do you like best in this draft?

I'm taking Kirkpatrick.

First we're drafting Vontaze, we need someone to replace Joe Mays. The guy sucks.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 09:46 PM
First we're drafting Vontaze, we need someone to replace Joe Mays. The guy sucks.

I still think we're selling out for Luck come draft day. Whatever it takes.

Swedish Extrovert
09-25-2011, 09:48 PM
What round? I am at the top on the waiting list for top picks at DL. You will have to wait your turn.

DT is not our concern anymore, man. Maybe we get Warren back (not holding my breath. But I like Vickerson... Bunkley is quietly having a great season, and Marcus Thomas is solid. I'm thinking 2nd/3rd round depth at this point.

Dedhed
09-25-2011, 09:55 PM
DT is not our concern anymore, man. Maybe we get Warren back (not holding my breath. But I like Vickerson... Bunkley is quietly having a great season, and Marcus Thomas is solid. I'm thinking 2nd/3rd round depth at this point.I wouldn't say it isn't a concern anymore, but it may not be the #1 concern.

Vontaze Burfict would address what I think is our #1 concern.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:19 PM
I thought Woodyard has actually looked pretty good.

Woodyard has been flat awful in pass coverage. He was directly responsible for one of the TD's against Cincy, and was consistently beaten in coverage.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:23 PM
First we're drafting Vontaze, we need someone to replace Joe Mays. The guy sucks.

Joe Mays plays the run game okay, but is a liability in the pass game. Two of our linebackers and one of our safeties are liabilities in pass coverage right now.

Woodyard, Mays, and Dawkins all struggle to break even in the pass game.

This and the lack of a pass rush (Von already regularly gets chipped and doubled), I think is why the pass defense struggles. Vaughn gets beat alot too, but these other guys just make things so difficult on the defense to make up for their deficiencies.

I would love to see the Broncos draft Burflict. He looks like the next Ray Lewis. As it stands today, we'll probably be right about in position to take Burflict.

Rascal
09-25-2011, 10:30 PM
The defense is without three starters. I thought they played well, and have played well compared to what I expected. Raiders just dominated the Jets, so that has to force you to reconsider the week 1 performance.

I'm giving the defense a pass, for now.

Dedhed
09-25-2011, 10:32 PM
I'm giving the defense a pass, for now.
I don't give anyone a pass, but they're clearly a far better unit in every way than what was out there last year.

ST has been very good.

Bigdawg26
09-25-2011, 10:35 PM
I wouldn't say it isn't a concern anymore, but it may not be the #1 concern.

Vontaze Burfict would address what I think is our #1 concern.

Him or anyone of those Bama LB's would be great, but I seriously doubt we can grab with because there's a 95 % chance we grab a QB with that pick!

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:37 PM
Him or anyone of those Bama LB's would be great, but I seriously doubt we can grab with because there's a 95 % chance we grab a QB with that pick!

I dont think we're drafting QB. I bet the team wins 5-6 games and we end up with a pick somewhere between 4 and 8. That would be prime real estate to land Burflict.

At that spot, Denver should be looking at DT, DE, or MLB and nowhere else.

broncocalijohn
09-25-2011, 10:44 PM
DT is not our concern anymore, man. Maybe we get Warren back (not holding my breath. But I like Vickerson... Bunkley is quietly having a great season, and Marcus Thomas is solid. I'm thinking 2nd/3rd round depth at this point.

In reality, I wouldnt set any draft picks until near end of the season. DL isnt the scary bit it was before the season, but I think a high draft pick needs to be addressed. 2nd or 3rd instead of a 1st? That would mean good news what we have seen. Just to know, our depth isnt much when these guys get hurt.

mkporter
09-25-2011, 10:50 PM
First we're drafting Vontaze, we need someone to replace Joe Mays. The guy sucks.

Sign me up for Vontaze. Mays might develop into a serviceable player, but I want a stud in the middle.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:52 PM
Sign me up for Vontaze. Mays might develop into a serviceable player, but I want a stud in the middle.

Draft Burflict, draft another DT, slowly work Warren back in, and you're looking at a team who can potentially dominate the run game on defense.

schaaf
09-25-2011, 10:56 PM
First we're drafting Vontaze, we need someone to replace Joe Mays. The guy sucks.

If I had to guess right now... Vontaze or Trent Richardson Fox likes to draft both in the first round

24champ
09-25-2011, 11:30 PM
Sign me up for Vontaze. Mays might develop into a serviceable player, but I want a stud in the middle.

I don't know if Mays is even servicable. He didn't do very well vs the Titans.

I just think Burfict would be the leader this defense needs. Dawkins is going to be riding off into the sunset this year, we need that vocal leader in the middle. Al Wilson brought some of that leadership, Romo did.

We also need to add depth to CB and DL.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 11:32 PM
I don't know if Mays is even servicable. He didn't do very well vs the Titans.

I just think Burfict would be the leader this defense needs. Dawkins is going to be riding off into the sunset this year, we need that vocal leader in the middle. Al Wilson brought some of that leadership, Romo did.

We also need to add depth to CB and DL.

We still need another key guy on the DL too, and unfortunately we cant depend on that being Warren.

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 06:23 AM
I don't give anyone a pass, but they're clearly a far better unit in every way than what was out there last year.

ST has been very good.

People might have said the same thing last year. Let's wait for actual offensive competition before jumping for joy.

Rock Chalk
09-26-2011, 06:28 AM
Large causes for alarm vs the pass:

4th worst in the NFL as far as opponent QB rating (106.8 to opposing QBs). Normally wouldn't care much... but the QBs we've played so far have been:

-Jason "I-Can't-Work-With-This" Campbell
-Andy the ginger Dalton in his 2nd ever NFL game after a LOCKOUT season
-40 year old version of Matt Hasselback with an injured Kenny Britt for most of the game

^ We have surrendered a 67.7% completion rate to THOSE QBs... along with 5 TDs.

We have a total of 5 sacks. Only one was gained without blitzing.

We have no interceptions.

In before "Elvis and Champ would fix this all and had no injury concern heading into the season and it was fine that we completely ignored CB depth through the draft and FA!"

Huge concerns. Whats most troubling is that we still cant get any pressure without blitzing, and blitzing heavy. Also of concern is that QBs can throw up jump balls and we have no one in position to make a play on those.

Against the run? Hey we did good two weeks in a row. Wnat to know why? We are loading up the box and thats causing our pass defense to be weakened. We played a more standard defense against Oakland and we sucked all around defensively. If they (and the Titans) had not consistently penalized themselves with idiot errors, both teams would have kicked our ass because our defense is weak sauce.

(I will leave offense criticisms for another thread as there are plenty of those as well).

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 06:50 AM
Huge concerns. Whats most troubling is that we still cant get any pressure without blitzing, and blitzing heavy. Also of concern is that QBs can throw up jump balls and we have no one in position to make a play on those.

Against the run? Hey we did good two weeks in a row. Wnat to know why? We are loading up the box and thats causing our pass defense to be weakened. We played a more standard defense against Oakland and we sucked all around defensively. If they (and the Titans) had not consistently penalized themselves with idiot errors, both teams would have kicked our ass because our defense is weak sauce.

(I will leave offense criticisms for another thread as there are plenty of those as well).

Good post, but we played a defense every bit as aggressive vs the run in week 1 vs Oakland than we have the past two weeks. Quite frankly the difference has been quality of ground games. #1 Oakland Raiders, middling #17 Bengals and dead last despite having maybe the best RB #32 Titans.

Also if you look at the Oakland game, we did very well against McFadden 19/22 plays holding him to 3 ypc. On those other 3? 20, 20, 47.

We're going to see more of that as I've been saying:

^ That

You can blitz, you can fire into gaps, you can run some 5 man fronts...

...And in doing so you can expect to disrupt plays and get after the QB

BUT you can also expect to get hit 30 yard screens, give up big draw plays, and often be at the mercy of a missed/broken tackle before it's off to the races.

Crushaholic
09-26-2011, 09:33 AM
Large causes for alarm vs the pass:

4th worst in the NFL as far as opponent QB rating (106.8 to opposing QBs). Normally wouldn't care much... but the QBs we've played so far have been:

-Jason "I-Can't-Work-With-This" Campbell
-Andy the ginger Dalton in his 2nd ever NFL game after a LOCKOUT season
-40 year old version of Matt Hasselback with an injured Kenny Britt for most of the game

^ We have surrendered a 67.7% completion rate to THOSE QBs... along with 5 TDs.

We have a total of 5 sacks. Only one was gained without blitzing.

We have no interceptions.



That's the main reason I wanted us to kick the field goal. That would put us up by 7, knowing that Hasselhoff would throw against a weak defense. Having them tie us is much better than trailing, late in the game...

Rock Chalk
09-26-2011, 09:57 AM
Good post, but we played a defense every bit as aggressive vs the run in week 1 vs Oakland than we have the past two weeks. Quite frankly the difference has been quality of ground games. #1 Oakland Raiders, middling #17 Bengals and dead last despite having maybe the best RB #32 Titans.

Also if you look at the Oakland game, we did very well against McFadden 19/22 plays holding him to 3 ypc. On those other 3? 20, 20, 47.

We're going to see more of that as I've been saying:

The frustrating part is that holy christ this has been a recurring theme for about 5 years. Stop on most plays but then give up a HUGE run or 6 during a game.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 09:59 AM
Allen had the CB's playing off the LOS all day yesterday, playing 10 yds off of the LOS. I don't know what he had going with the LB's and the safeties. I did see all kinds of blitzes from different places, sometimes the LB's, sometimes the CB, sometimes the S. Seemed to me Allen was giving up the underneath stuff, and Hasselbeck was connecting on the underneath to beat the blitz. Vaughn got turned around once, and Hasselbeck beat him with a decent throw and a superb catch by Nate Washington. Washington had a few nice catches. In the 2nd half Hasselbeck and Washington slowed down a little bit, but Denver had to capitalize after Miller stripped the ball, and ended up with zero points after a 1st and goal at the 2. Then there was the 95-yd TD drive by TENN, and that was it, Denver was at the TENN 39 yd line and INT off of a tipped ball. So close, but still 1-2. Good effort, but still 1-2 from lack of clutch play by the O and D. ST's did their part.

Allen's D played pretty well yesterday, but gave up the two big plays, and then the Brett Kern punt f-up that ended up in a 21 yd rush (tied for the longest run of the day by TENN). Eh, maybe they will regroup, we'll see what the character of the team is when they get Champ, Elvis, Moreno, DJ back. The subs held their own.

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 09:59 AM
The frustrating part is that holy christ this has been a recurring theme for about 5 years. Stop on most plays but then give up a HUGE run or 6 during a game.

Indeed. And instead of focusing on addressing it, we spent that time dismantling the offense for some reason and now we're still in the same leaky boat, albeit it's looking nicer right now, and all our most talented crew men are now just several years older and slower and beat up.

DrFate
09-26-2011, 10:03 AM
I dont think we're drafting QB. I bet the team wins 5-6 games and we end up with a pick somewhere between 4 and 8.

I'll bite. Suppose you are right. Who is QB1 opening day 2012?

Mediator12
09-26-2011, 10:27 AM
Kirkpatrick is ridiculous.

Jenkins is probably the second best and if he can stay clean and show maturity, he'll reflect it... otherwise he's probably a late rounder.

Denard and Claiborne are both solid but nothing I'm really excited about.

I'm meh on Cliff Harris.

Minnifield plays like Alphonso lol.

Hayward from Vandy is one of my favorites to start rising... I'm actually going to go and watch him November 5th because of that.

And of course D'Anton Lynn from my PSU to go to a cover 2 team.

Man, we see DB's very differently. I love Denard and Claiborne as NFL CB's. I liked Denard Way better than Prince last year and since he has only played one game versus Wyoming due to leg injury this year it is hard to say how he is playing. Claiborne is nasty and can tackle on the edge and I love that about SEC CB's. He was stellar against Miss State already this year.

Kirkpatrick is a guy I need to watch more. He looks too much like Kareem Jackson to me at this point. Gets the job done but also has superior guys all around him to make him look better IMHO.

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 10:33 AM
Man, we see DB's very differently. I love Denard and Claiborne as NFL CB's. I liked Denard Way better than Prince last year and since he has only played one game versus Wyoming due to leg injury this year it is hard to say how he is playing. Claiborne is nasty and can tackle on the edge and I love that about SEC CB's. He was stellar against Miss State already this year.

Kirkpatrick is a guy I need to watch more. He looks too much like Kareem Jackson to me at this point. Gets the job done but also has superior guys all around him to make him look better IMHO.

Denard and Claiborne are first round locks behind Kirkpatrick at the moment. I'm just not in love with either. Kirkpatrick is head and shoulders better than both and Jenkins is better than both too... he just likes drugs lol.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 10:34 AM
DT is not our concern anymore, man. Maybe we get Warren back (not holding my breath. But I like Vickerson... Bunkley is quietly having a great season, and Marcus Thomas is solid. I'm thinking 2nd/3rd round depth at this point.

Bunkley is playing well from what I've seen, good pickup, nice to see some pressure up the middle.

DENVERDUI55
09-26-2011, 10:36 AM
I was laughing early on with all the talk of 50 plus sacks.

Agamemnon
09-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Rodgers will certainly be a test for our pass D hes accurate and sees the field very well.

If we don't get Dumervil and Champ back by the time we play Green Bay we have absolutely no chance of holding them under 300 yards passing. No chance.

DENVERDUI55
09-26-2011, 05:16 PM
Even with champ and doom there is zero chance of holding Rodgers under 300.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm an asshole for making this thread, right?

::)

eddie mac
10-02-2011, 03:48 PM
Hardly rev, there's just some blind ****s that think this is a decent team with Tebow starting. ****ing laughable. Worst Broncos team in decades.

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Hardly rev, there's just some blind ****s that think this is a decent team with Tebow starting. ****ing laughable. Worst Broncos team in decades.

Christ. Do you ever make a statement that isn't full of massive exaggeration these days?

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Hardly rev, there's just some blind ****s that think this is a decent team with Tebow starting. ****ing laughable. Worst Broncos team in decades.

Honestly I'm sick of it.

I'm sick of Denver being a ****ty football team.

I'm sick of people calling me a dick for being honest when that's the goddamn point of this place.

I'm sick of people trying to find a brightside when the dark cloud is so ****ing obvious and prevalent it's ridiculous.

I'm sick of people defending being 25 million under the ****ing cap because "we weren't going to the play offs anyway"

I want to win. The ****ing franchise clearly doesn't. Yet I'm the asshole. ::)

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 03:51 PM
Christ. Do you ever make a statement that isn't full of massive exaggeration these days?

Is it? The team last year was LITERALLY the worst in franchise history.

....Where's the upgrades from last year?

DBroncos4life
10-02-2011, 03:55 PM
Christ. Do you ever make a statement that isn't full of massive exaggeration these days?

Can you name the last time Denver picked in the top 5 in back to back years?

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 03:59 PM
Can you name the last time Denver picked in the top 5 in back to back years?

He called this the worst team in decades. All you have to do is go back one year to find one not only worse but significantly worse.

DBroncos4life
10-02-2011, 04:03 PM
He called this the worst team in decades. All you have to do is go back one year to find one not only worse but significantly worse.

The year isn't over. 4 wins might be hard to reach.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:06 PM
He called this the worst team in decades. All you have to do is go back one year to find one not only worse but significantly worse.

Through 1/4 of the season, we are EXACTLY on par to repeat last season.

But, btw, that 1/4 of the season was dramatically the SOFTEST patch of the schedule.

Sooooooooooooooo... you were saying?

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:08 PM
Through 1/4 of the season, we are EXACTLY on par to repeat last season.

But, btw, that 1/4 of the season was dramatically the SOFTEST patch of the schedule.

Sooooooooooooooo... you were saying?

And record tells the story perfectly? Please.

If you can't see improvement on defense thus far then you're blind.

Bunch of whiny and entitled bitches complaining we haven't lifted the Titantic from the depths and patched it up in one shortened offseason. We suck. Get over it. Look for improvement. We aren't winning **** this year. The best we could have hoped for was a wild card with significant help from other teams. That's not happening obviously.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:12 PM
And record tells the story perfectly? Please.

If you can't see improvement on defense thus far then you're blind.

Bunch of whiny and entitled b****es complaining we haven't lifted the Titantic from the depths and patched it up in one shortened offseason. We suck. Get over it. Look for improvement. We aren't winning **** this year. The best we could have hoped for was a wild card with significant help from other teams. That's not happening obviously.

We just gave up 49 points through 3 ****ing quarters...

DBroncos4life
10-02-2011, 04:13 PM
And record tells the story perfectly? Please.

If you can't see improvement on defense thus far then you're blind.

Bunch of whiny and entitled b****es complaining we haven't lifted the Titantic from the depths and patched it up in one shortened offseason. We suck. Get over it. Look for improvement. We aren't winning **** this year. The best we could have hoped for was a wild card with significant help from other teams. That's not happening obviously.

Our D isn't that much better then last year man.

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:18 PM
We just gave up 49 points through 3 ****ing quarters...

Oh boohoo. One bad game against the best offense in football. We were giving up that many points to ****ing ****ty teams last year.

fontaine
10-02-2011, 04:18 PM
Dawkins/Vaughn/Vilhite/Moore got serially abused today.

Outside of that the front 7 was fine. We stopped the run and got decent pressure on Rogers until he adjusted and started releasing the ball quicker and going for home run passes.

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:19 PM
Our D isn't that much better then last year man.

Stats say they are thus far and it will take a few more games this bad to even get to that level of suck.

Agamemnon
10-02-2011, 04:20 PM
Oh boohoo. One bad game against the best offense in football. We were giving up that many points to ****ing ****ty teams last year.

This game goes far beyond the term "bad game". Pull your head out of your ass.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Stats say they are thus far and it will take a few more games this bad to even get to that level of suck.

...Do they? Or are you making this up ALSO?

Want to compare against the first four weeks of last year?

DBroncos4life
10-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Stats say they are thus far and it will take a few more games this bad to even get to that level of suck.

Ha the only time we held a QB under 300 yards passing this year is cause that team was busy rushing for 190 yards against us.

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:28 PM
...Do they? Or are you making this up ALSO?

Want to compare against the first four weeks of last year?

Well seeing as last year we were dead least in pretty much every category that mattered I would say yes the stats do support it. Or do the teens come after the thirties these days?

Unless we are going to play the Packers every week then yes we'll be not only better on defense this year but likely significantly better.

Oh yeah, we had one of the softest schedules in the league last year when we put up the worst defense in franchise history and one of the worst in league history.

eddie mac
10-02-2011, 04:30 PM
Christ. Do you ever make a statement that isn't full of massive exaggeration these days?

WTF am I exaggerating about. We have Von Miller and that's about it. Do you see anything else that is remotely positive about this team???

I dont.

I see 3 average to crap QB's
I see an average RB who's nearly washed up and a bust 1st rd pick
I see nothing of note at TE
I see a couple of decent WR's
I see very little of note on the OL
Dont talk to me about the DL, Dumervil if ever 100% again may reach his former heights.
Von Miller at LB, the rest are ****
The secondary just gave Rodgers his best day ever in the NFL and made Dalton, Campbell and Hasselhoff look great, Dawkins is slow and awful is pass coverage, Moore may come good, Goodman is ****ing terrible and Vaughn should be packing groceries.

I took off the Orange specs long ago. This is a ****ing terrible team from front to back and top to bottom. If they dont get the 1st pick in 2012 it'll only be because the Colts cant find a way to win without their leader.

Fox needs at least 2-3 seasons to get this team even competitive. At least 2 more drafts.

DBroncos4life
10-02-2011, 04:32 PM
Well seeing as last year we were dead least in pretty much every category that mattered I would say yes the stats do support it. Or do the teens come after the thirties these days?

Unless we are going to play the Packers every week then yes we'll be not only better on defense this year but likely significantly better.

Oh yeah, we had one of the softest schedules in the league last year when we put up the worst defense in franchise history and one of the worst in league history.

I don't think we will be in the teens after this week.

Rohirrim
10-02-2011, 04:33 PM
WTF am I exaggerating about. We have Von Miller and that's about it. Do you see anything else that is remotely positive about this team???

I dont.

I see 3 average to crap QB's
I see an average RB who's nearly washed up and a bust 1st rd pick
I see nothing of note at TE
I see a couple of decent WR's
I see very little of note on the OL
Dont talk to me about the DL, Dumervil if ever 100% again may reach his former heights.
Von Miller at LB, the rest are ****
The secondary just gave Rodgers his best day ever in the NFL and made Dalton, Campbell and Hasselhoff look great, Dawkins is slow and awful is pass coverage, Moore may come good, Goodman is ****ing terrible and Vaughn should be packing groceries.

I took off the Orange specs long ago. This is a ****ing terrible team from front to back and top to bottom. If they dont get the 1st pick in 2012 it'll only be because the Colts cant find a way to win without their leader.

Fox needs at least 2-3 seasons to get this team even competitive. At least 2 more drafts.

Yeah, but other than that...

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:34 PM
I don't think we will be in the teens after this week.

Probably not. But it will average out that way. Certainly the low 20's.

We were so bad last year we should have considered college and the CFL for our true ranking in the 100's.

broncogary
10-02-2011, 04:35 PM
WTF am I exaggerating about. We have Von Miller and that's about it. Do you see anything else that is remotely positive about this team???

I dont.

I see 3 average to crap QB's
I see an average RB who's nearly washed up and a bust 1st rd pick
I see nothing of note at TE
I see a couple of decent WR's
I see very little of note on the OL
Dont talk to me about the DL, Dumervil if ever 100% again may reach his former heights.
Von Miller at LB, the rest are ****
The secondary just gave Rodgers his best day ever in the NFL and made Dalton, Campbell and Hasselhoff look great, Dawkins is slow and awful is pass coverage, Moore may come good, Goodman is ****ing terrible and Vaughn should be packing groceries.

I took off the Orange specs long ago. This is a ****ing terrible team from front to back and top to bottom. If they dont get the 1st pick in 2012 it'll only be because the Colts cant find a way to win without their leader.

Fox needs at least 2-3 seasons to get this team even competitive. At least 2 more drafts.

And talking about getting your feet tangled, he eve did it on the stationary bike. Hilarious!

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
WTF am I exaggerating about. We have Von Miller and that's about it. Do you see anything else that is remotely positive about this team???

I dont.


I'm not saying this is a good team. I don't think anybody is. I'm simply watching for improvement. I'm not going to sit back and agree as people bitch and moan about how terrible we are and claim that Fox and Elway are terrible and have put together the worst team ever. That is complete bull****, entirely divorced from reality, and completely unfair to them.

eddie mac
10-02-2011, 04:39 PM
I'm not saying this is a good team. I don't think anybody is. I'm simply watching for improvement. I'm not going to sit back and agree as people b**** and moan about how terrible we are and claim that Fox and Elway are terrible and have put together the worst team ever. That is complete bull****, entirely divorced from reality, and completely unfair to them.

Read above. I dont blame Fox or Elway at all. Bowlen and McDaniels are equally to blame for this franchise's downfall. John and John need to be given time to see if they can improve this team. It shouldn't be too hard though cos they are relatively at the bottom right now.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:41 PM
Well seeing as last year we were dead least in pretty much every category that mattered I would say yes the stats do support it. Or do the teens come after the thirties these days?

Unless we are going to play the Packers every week then yes we'll be not only better on defense this year but likely significantly better.

Oh yeah, we had one of the softest schedules in the league last year when we put up the worst defense in franchise history and one of the worst in league history.

This time last year:

901 yards passing
404 yards rushing
1305 yards of offense surrendered
85 total points
5 TOs forced
4 sacks forced

This time this year:

1112 yards passing
399 yards rushing
1511 yards of offense surrendered
111 total points
4 TOs forced
7 sacks forced


.........what were you saying again?

DBroncos4life
10-02-2011, 04:42 PM
Probably not. But it will average out that way. Certainly the low 20's.

We were so bad last year we should have considered college and the CFL for our true ranking in the 100's.

We still will be picking in the top 5. We are just lucky that there are some other teams that are just as bad as us out there otherwise we would be a lock for number one.

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:46 PM
This time last year:

901 yards passing
404 yards rushing
1305 yards of offense surrendered
85 total points
5 TOs forced
4 sacks forced

This time this year:

1112 yards passing
399 yards rushing
1511 yards of offense surrendered
111 total points
4 TOs forced
7 sacks forced


.........what were you saying again?

One bad game skews the stats. Also the competition is not very comparable in those four games.

Want to make a bet that we'll finish better in defense this year?

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:47 PM
Read above. I dont blame Fox or Elway at all. Bowlen and McDaniels are equally to blame for this franchise's downfall. John and John need to be given time to see if they can improve this team. It shouldn't be too hard though cos they are relatively at the bottom right now.

You seem to be one of the few that don't then.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:48 PM
One bad game skews the stats. Also the competition is not comparable in those four games.

Want to make a bet that we'll finish better in defense this year?

ONE BAD GAME?!?!?! Ha!

See the OP you douche.

Btw, last year we played better teams through the first quarter...

snowspot66
10-02-2011, 04:54 PM
ONE BAD GAME?!?!?! Ha!

See the OP you douche.

Btw, last year we played better teams through the first quarter...

Fine. One bad game relative to our expectations.

Last year we played Jacksonville, Seattle, Indianapolis, and Tennessee.

This year Oakland, Cincinnati, Tennessee, and Green Bay.

Green Bay is miles ahead of Indianapolis from last year, and the other three are all better than any of their 2010 counterparts in the first four games.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 04:58 PM
Fine. One bad game relative to our expectations.

Last year we played Jacksonville, Seattle, Indianapolis, and Tennessee.

This year Oakland, Cincinnati, Tennessee, and Green Bay.

Green Bay is miles ahead of Indianapolis from last year, and the other three are all better than any of their 2010 counterparts in the first four games.

You've got to be ****ting me.

Ambiguous
10-02-2011, 05:11 PM
It's pretty pathetic watching a lot of you guys beat your heads into the wall over a ****ty team losing to a good one.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:22 PM
It's pretty pathetic watching a lot of you guys beat your heads into the wall over a ****ty team losing to a good one.

Not all of us can rejoice over 1-3, but I won't ruin your celebration.

Have fun man.

rugbythug
10-02-2011, 05:31 PM
Not all of us can rejoice over 1-3, but I won't ruin your celebration.

Have fun man.

I refuse to take you seriously if continue saying we are not better defensively this year. Vonn miller alone makes this team way better than last.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:33 PM
I refuse to take you seriously if continue saying we are not better defensively this year. Vonn miller alone makes this team way better than last.

I refuse to take you seriously for obvious reasons, but I'll post this again anyway:

This time last year:

901 yards passing
404 yards rushing
1305 yards of offense surrendered
85 total points
5 TOs forced
4 sacks forced

This time this year:

1112 yards passing
399 yards rushing
1511 yards of offense surrendered
111 total points
4 TOs forced
7 sacks forced


.........what were you saying again?

Who you gonna call bro?

Ambiguous
10-02-2011, 05:33 PM
Not all of us can rejoice over 1-3, but I won't ruin your celebration.

Have fun man.

Will do, let me when your whining finally fixes the team.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:36 PM
Will do, let me when your whining finally fixes team.

Promise I will. Until then, have fun with your "Broncos lose again" parties.

Jesterhole
10-02-2011, 05:38 PM
Our best player has been out three weeks. And Dawkins can't cover passes anymore.

rugbythug
10-02-2011, 05:39 PM
I refuse to take you seriously for obvious reasons, but I'll post this again anyway:



Who you gonna call bro?

42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot. You know its bull**** however it doesn't fit your shtick so you ignore it. Intellectual dishonesty.

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 05:40 PM
42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot. You know its bull**** however it doesn't fit your shtick so you ignore it. Intellectual dishonesty.

How so?

In what way is ANY of that intellectual dishonesty?

Use ANY example?

****, we even played better competition through 4 games last year.

hambone13
10-02-2011, 05:47 PM
I thought Woodyard has actually looked pretty good.

I agree. He's a bit undersized but he's ALWAYS around the ball and is a solid tackler in general. Everyone misses a play every once in a while but I think he had a decent game. It's tough to say anyone other than Von had a mentionable game. McGahee continues to impress but it's tough to say whether or not they cared if he got to the second level or not. It seemed like multiple versions of prevent all day.

rugbythug
10-02-2011, 06:01 PM
How so?

In what way is ANY of that intellectual dishonesty?

Use ANY example?

****, we even played better competition through 4 games last year.

Last Year This Year
Jags 2&2 Raiders 2&2
Seahawks 2&2 Bengals 2&2
Colts 2&2 Titans 3&1
Titans 2&2 Packers 4&0

TheReverend
10-02-2011, 06:07 PM
Last Year This Year
Jags 2&2 Raiders 2&2
Seahawks 2&2 Bengals 2&2
Colts 2&2 Titans 3&1
Titans 2&2 Packers 4&0

Wow.

Welcome to new heights...

hambone13
10-02-2011, 06:17 PM
The BIG PICTURE reality view is there is no way we could address EVERY hole on our team in one off-season/draft. We did a pretty decent job in this draft and certainly have more to go obviously including corner-back. I'm ready for Goodman to be gone after this year and we need two more CB's including a stud-level Champ replacement to start grooming .. what else is new??

But b****in' after every game about what we didn't get done this year is a moot point when we had so much that needs fixing. We give Elway/Fox two more full years to really start turning it all around to a consistently competitive team. If they get it done earlier its a bonus .. but if every week all the hand wringers here are gonna get their knickers in a twist over the obvious ... that we are in rebuilding mode and no where near finished .. its gonna a be long whiny year serving little purpose at all.

We'll start you a section where you can glamor in your optimism of the future while we talk about what is actually going on in recent memory. Then you don't have to talk about the immediate reality.

barryr
10-02-2011, 08:44 PM
Without Champ, the CB spot is pretty bad to say the least. Have too many guys there who should not be in the NFL or just playing SP.

maven
10-02-2011, 08:50 PM
Rodgers set an NFL record today with 4 TD's, 400+ yards, and 2 rushing TD's. Yep, it's still dog crap.

barryr
10-02-2011, 08:53 PM
Rodgers set an NFL record today with 4 TD's, 400+ yards, and 2 rushing TD's. Yep, it's still dog crap.

And you could see he was having fun and not challenged at all. There have been far too many instances where the Broncos just do not show anything good on defense. It amazes me since the Orange Crush days it has been hard for the Broncos to even have a middle of the pack defense, much less a great one.

broncocalijohn
10-02-2011, 09:32 PM
Last year was diarhea. This year is soft poop. Still crap but you are off the pot in a few minutes instead of 10 minutes and a full roll of wipe.

Crushaholic
10-03-2011, 09:24 AM
Von Miller was definitely worth the high pick. However, he can't do it alone. Forget about "Suck for Luck". How about "Suck for Another Pass Rusher to complement Von". Our D-Line still doesn't quite scare anybody...

Drek
10-03-2011, 10:20 AM
Von Miller was definitely worth the high pick. However, he can't do it alone. Forget about "Suck for Luck". How about "Suck for Another Pass Rusher to complement Von". Our D-Line still doesn't quite scare anybody...

Thats because our secondary can't cover anyone. Doom and Miller were generating pressure. We have two pass rushers. We need DTs in the middle who stuff the run and almost as importantly, DBs who can cover someone, anyone, at all, even for a little bit.

Goodman is old and slow. Cassius Vaughn is Roc Alexander Part 2. We got Wilhite off waivers and he looks like our best CB not named Champ. Champ going out shouldn't immediately make us the worst passing defense in the league, but the last few weeks convinces you otherwise, doesn't it?

TheReverend
10-06-2011, 07:09 AM
Update:

We are currently surrendering:

1112 yards through the air, 399 on the ground, and 111 pts with 4 TOs forced

For some perspective, through 4 games last year:

901 yards through the air, 404 on the ground, and 85 pts with 5 TOs forced

:(

For those that want to attribute this to the GB alone and remove it as an outlier (without even removing last years Colts game as a respective outlier):

Current through 4: 378 ypg, 278 passing ypg, 100 rushing ypg, 27.75 ppg, and 1 TOs pg
Current (minus GB): 335 ypg, 235 passing ypg, 100 rushing ypg, 20.67 ppg, and 0.67 TOs pg
Last year through 4: 326 ypg, 225 passing ypg, 101 rushing ypg, 21.25 ypg, and 1.25 TOs pg
Last year (minus IND): 313 ypg, 192 passing ypg, 121 rushing ypg, 19.3 ypg, and 1.67 TOs pg

So even slanting the stats to be favorable to this season's team, we're no better a defense than we were last season TO DATE.

Eldorado
10-06-2011, 07:15 AM
Well, that's terrible.

Bigdawg26
10-06-2011, 07:19 AM
Bunkley does a good job in holding the point of attack and stuffing the run (which we havent been this good in since Al Wilson was here), but we SUCK against the pass. Mays and Woody are so lost in pass coverage, Dawkins is only an extra linebacker out there now, and Goody and Vaughan can't cover anyone out there. When we get DJ back (who is a way in pass coverage than Woody) and Champ to go along with Von Doom's pass rush then we may alright!

TheReverend
10-06-2011, 07:21 AM
Bunkley does a good job in holding the point of attack and stuffing the run (which we havent been this good in since Al Wilson was here), but we SUCK against the pass. Mays and Woody are so lost in pass coverage, Dawkins is only an extra linebacker out there now, and Goody and Vaughan can't cover anyone out there. When we get DJ back (who is a way in pass coverage than Woody) and Champ to go along with Von Doom's pass rush then we may alright!

FYI, we got DJ back already.

He kinda lead the team in tackles last week.

TheChamp24
10-06-2011, 07:26 AM
Our pass coverage is atrocious. I don't know if its scheme or the players just stink and covering, but its bad.

Boobs McGee
10-06-2011, 07:37 AM
Our pass coverage is atrocious. I don't know if its scheme or the players just stink and covering, but its bad.

Hopefully Cassius can start making some big plays...it sometimes SEEMS like he's inches away from jumping a route, making something big happen, but then other times he just gets completely torched. Not Roc Alexander and the Colts bad, but he definitely seems to be struggling. Now, I understand he's been getting some marquee matchups, and he's still learning, but I hope Champ gets back soon to alleviate some of that pain. This is all coming from a complete lack of understanding of defensive scheme and ability, and how it "appears" to me.

Anyone care to comment on how they think my adopt-a-bronco is going to develop? From a knowledgeable standpoint, is he showing signs of become better than average? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part

t-diddy
10-06-2011, 08:37 AM
What drove me crazy in the GB game was when we were getting pressure and getting to Rogers pretty regularly and they switched to no huddle and three step drops... Rogers hit a couple quick slants in a row and carved us up. I don't have the best grasp of scheme but why do our corners play so far off the line of scrimmage? Seems to me the best way to beat a pass rush is getting rid of the ball quick... shouldn't our corners be in trying to re-route guys in these situations instead of giving so much cushion?

TheReverend
10-06-2011, 08:39 AM
Hopefully Cassius can start making some big plays...it sometimes SEEMS like he's inches away from jumping a route, making something big happen, but then other times he just gets completely torched. Not Roc Alexander and the Colts bad, but he definitely seems to be struggling. Now, I understand he's been getting some marquee matchups, and he's still learning, but I hope Champ gets back soon to alleviate some of that pain. This is all coming from a complete lack of understanding of defensive scheme and ability, and how it "appears" to me.

Anyone care to comment on how they think my adopt-a-bronco is going to develop? From a knowledgeable standpoint, is he showing signs of become better than average? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part

He'll be fine.

He's gone from UDFA to ST player to start in one year.

Frankly he SHOULDN'T be starting... but neither should Goodman.

TheReverend
10-06-2011, 08:41 AM
What drove me crazy in the GB game was when we were getting pressure and getting to Rogers pretty regularly and they switched to no huddle and three step drops... Rogers hit a couple quick slants in a row and carved us up. I don't have the best grasp of scheme but why do our corners play so far off the line of scrimmage? Seems to me the best way to beat a pass rush is getting rid of the ball quick... shouldn't our corners be in trying to re-route guys in these situations instead of giving so much cushion?

What would you try? A tampa 2 with only 1 safety that can run?

Jump routes? Play press? Either option we were significantly outgunned talent wise and would've probably just given up more massive plays instead of the underneath stuff.

Rabb
10-06-2011, 08:42 AM
He'll be fine.

He's gone from UDFA to ST player to start in one year.

Frankly he SHOULDN'T be starting... but neither should Goodman.

I agree with this

t-diddy
10-06-2011, 08:52 AM
What would you try? A tampa 2 with only 1 safety that can run?

Jump routes? Play press? Either option we were significantly outgunned talent wise and would've probably just given up more massive plays instead of the underneath stuff.

It was more of a question than a criticism... just seemed like it was too easy to beat the only thing we do well which is rush from the edges. Granted, Rogers can pick anything apart at this point.

So is it a function of not having the talent in our corners to play bump coverage? Or a good cover safety? Both perhaps. Like i said, i don't fully understand all the different schemes it just seemed too easy to move the ball from my laymans perspective.

schaaf
10-06-2011, 09:25 AM
Hopefully Cassius can start making some big plays...it sometimes SEEMS like he's inches away from jumping a route, making something big happen, but then other times he just gets completely torched. Not Roc Alexander and the Colts bad, but he definitely seems to be struggling. Now, I understand he's been getting some marquee matchups, and he's still learning, but I hope Champ gets back soon to alleviate some of that pain. This is all coming from a complete lack of understanding of defensive scheme and ability, and how it "appears" to me.

Anyone care to comment on how they think my adopt-a-bronco is going to develop? From a knowledgeable standpoint, is he showing signs of become better than average? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part

What I see with Cassius is the potential to be a solid starter he has all the physical tools, he just needs more coaching and experience to develop that

TheReverend
10-06-2011, 10:36 AM
It was more of a question than a criticism... just seemed like it was too easy to beat the only thing we do well which is rush from the edges. Granted, Rogers can pick anything apart at this point.

Can we at least start putting to bed that retarded myth that was floating around here that the pass rush shuts down the passing game? ROFL!

It takes everything in unison to shut down a passing game.

I had a guy tell me (dead serious), he'd rather have an average DT than a HoF corner this off-season. There aren't enough bertstares in the world.

So is it a function of not having the talent in our corners to play bump coverage? Or a good cover safety? Both perhaps. Like i said, i don't fully understand all the different schemes it just seemed too easy to move the ball from my laymans perspective.

Both. Moore's over-extended with two poor CBs and... well, he's making rookie mistakes anyway. When Champ comes back he can cheat over in cover 1 and that should help free our poor corners to drop their cushion (Champ will be fine with his standard).

At least that's how I'm hoping Allen plays it. Time will tell.

t-diddy
10-06-2011, 11:08 AM
Can we at least start putting to bed that retarded myth that was floating around here that the pass rush shuts down the passing game? ROFL!

It takes everything in unison to shut down a passing game.

I had a guy tell me (dead serious), he'd rather have an average DT than a HoF corner this off-season. There aren't enough bertstares in the world.



Both. Moore's over-extended with two poor CBs and... well, he's making rookie mistakes anyway. When Champ comes back he can cheat over in cover 1 and that should help free our poor corners to drop their cushion (Champ will be fine with his standard).

At least that's how I'm hoping Allen plays it. Time will tell.

Good info. Thanks man.

gyldenlove
10-06-2011, 11:20 AM
Can we at least start putting to bed that retarded myth that was floating around here that the pass rush shuts down the passing game? ROFL!

It takes everything in unison to shut down a passing game.

I had a guy tell me (dead serious), he'd rather have an average DT than a HoF corner this off-season. There aren't enough bertstares in the world.



Both. Moore's over-extended with two poor CBs and... well, he's making rookie mistakes anyway. When Champ comes back he can cheat over in cover 1 and that should help free our poor corners to drop their cushion (Champ will be fine with his standard).

At least that's how I'm hoping Allen plays it. Time will tell.

Pass rush and coverage work in harmony, if one is missing the whole thing is pretty much worthless. Unless you are entirely unblocked it will take about 3 seconds for a good pass rusher in single coverage to get to the QB under good conditions, more if the QB is moving around, that means the coverage has to be tight enough that the QB can not throw the ball for the first 3 seconds after the snap. On the other hand if there is no pass rush then no matter how tight the coverage is a good QB will find an open man.

Right now the weak end of our pass defense is very much the coverage, both LBs and DBs need to be upgraded. If we get Champ back healthy then that opens up possibilities for using zone-man mixes and straight man coverage, with safety help on Goodman and in cover 1, you can even move a safety to cover the TE. I wouldn't be surprised to see relatively little of Dawkins if Gates plays a lot of snaps this week since with Bailey on the field we can have Moore play cover 1 and then have Carter move up and try to cover Gates.