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View Full Version : Obviously I'm in the minority, but I think we're getting better.


Kaylore
09-25-2011, 04:44 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

Mogulseeker
09-25-2011, 04:46 PM
I don't think you're in the minority. We're obviously getting better. Anyone who has followed football closely in recent years has a lot to be optimistic about after that performance.

Last years' team would have lost control of the game after the failed 4th down conversion.

Agamemnon
09-25-2011, 04:48 PM
We won at Tennessee last year. We lost this year. How are we improving again?

SoCalBronco
09-25-2011, 04:50 PM
Khan's just happy because at the end of the first half the announcer said "Kuper just got on his back" after a play.

;D:haw!::haw!::haw!:

ant1999e
09-25-2011, 04:50 PM
I think Chris Johnson had an average of 2.5 ypc before this game.

Garcia Bronco
09-25-2011, 04:52 PM
I agree. There is some improvement out there. We are stopping the run.

24champ
09-25-2011, 04:53 PM
We won at Tennessee last year. We lost this year. How are we improving again?

Yeah and people were saying we improved after that game. We held Chris Johnson to 2.8 ypc. Plus Orton threw for 341 yards and 2 TDs.

TonyR
09-25-2011, 04:54 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

Yup, and Vegas felt that way too. We were a big road dog and coulda/shoulda won.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 04:54 PM
Parts are getting better. The run defense is getting better. Miller is getting experience. The Oline seems to be improving at pass protection.

Parts aren't getting better. The clutch play on both sides of the ball are poor. There is no threat of a run game or a pass game from this offense. QB play continues to demoralize....

fontaine
09-25-2011, 04:55 PM
I called it the same way in the game thread Kaylore.

1. Our OL pass protection has improved every game to being very good today.
2. Our run game has improved leaps and bounds compared to last year.
3. Our defense has improved astronomically since last year.
4. Even our STs isn't a complete black hole like last year.

Except ask Orton to improve, even a little bit and here's the response:

http://symbii.com/images/stories/orton2.jpg

And that's not surprising either because funadementally we're playing better football. The basics like tackling, shedding, gap responsibility, disipline on STs it's all getting better.

No doubt it helps with a simplified defense but one only has to look at the sheer amount of times our defense last year was flagged, had to call time outs because we couldn't even get 11 guys on defense.

Look at the amount of times defenders routinely sliced into the backfield stuffing the RBs for a loss last year and see how little that's happened this year.

We definitely need more talent and no where is that more clear than at QB.

Archer81
09-25-2011, 04:56 PM
Would be nice if we had a dynamic QB out there...but the improvement, especially on defense is obvious.

:Broncos:

RunSilentRunDeep
09-25-2011, 04:57 PM
The defense is getting better (wouldn't mind Bunkley being inked to an extension now) but the play calling is getting worse. That was the most uncreative game plan I've seen in a while. I'd hate to see Decker, D-Thomas, Tebow, Orange Julius waste a year learning McCoy's offense when it's clear he's a part of the problem (and may need to go). Hopefully, he grows into the job, but I liked him more when he called games for Tebow.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 04:58 PM
I hope you're not in the minority, although we have a very vocal element of whiny 1998 Superbowl era fans, that don't want to accept where this team is compared to the upper tier of the league from a talent standpoint.

I see improvement with Bunkley on the line. I see Von Miller getting better in run support each week. Ayers has been solid for two weeks in a row. It looks like Denver hit on two draft high draft picks in Miller and Moore. The secondary played pretty well considering no Champ, and the front 7 got OK pressure for not having Doom in the lineup. Offensively, Orton clearly isn't the answer, but 3rd down conversions were improved.

The team is moving in the right direction, the problem is a lack of physicality on the O-line, no franchise QB and injuries at skill positions.

It comes down to the fact that the front office needs another draft cycle to address the holes in the team left by the McDaniel's abortion. They need a speed back, a center that is stronger at the point of attack and a RT/G depending on whether or not they move Franklin inside eventually. They need to evaluate Tebow to determine if he has the potential to be a franchise QB, and if not they need to address it with 2012 no. 1.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 05:00 PM
They need to evaluate Tebow to determine if he has the potential to be a franchise QB, and if not they need to address it with 2012 no. 1.

It keeps coming back to this, doesn't it?

Agamemnon
09-25-2011, 05:03 PM
I hope you're not in the minority, although we have a very vocal element of whiny 1998 Superbowl era fans, that don't want to accept where this team is compared to the upper tier of the league from a talent standpoint.


You mean the fans that know what the Broncos are supposed to be? Yeah they're terrible...

Kaylore
09-25-2011, 05:03 PM
I hope you're not in the minority, although we have a very vocal element of whiny 1998 Superbowl era fans, that don't want to accept where this team is compared to the upper tier of the league from a talent standpoint.

I agree with this. There also seems to be people who are bigger Shanahan fans than Bronco fans.

bronco militia
09-25-2011, 05:05 PM
kyle orton still sucks, so there's that

schaaf
09-25-2011, 05:07 PM
IMHO, we will be in every game. We need sone more speed on offense, we need a leader at QB whether it's Tebow or not, Mays was a huge liability in coverage today and we need Champ back, Wilhite was getting burnt

TDmvp
09-25-2011, 05:08 PM
We look better in ways. On D we are faster and smarter.
Fox is just so conservative sometimes but that's what we hired him for . Stability.
But Orton on 3rd down and in "The Red Zone" is so
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6333/deerinheadlights.jpg

Agamemnon
09-25-2011, 05:09 PM
IMHO, we will be in every game.

Get back to me on that after we start playing playoff caliber teams.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 05:09 PM
IMHO, we will be in every game.

Talk to me after next week's game

go_broncos
09-25-2011, 05:11 PM
Unless we have a good QB, most of the times we lose close games.
Unfortunately, there is no moral victories in NFL.
We don't know how our team and other team's will be in next year.
Right now, this team is bore to watch and it starts with QB.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 05:14 PM
My contribution to this thread:

L

O

L

WABronco
09-25-2011, 05:14 PM
kyle orton still sucks, so there's that

You should learn to appreciate the little things though...our shiat ass players were a little less ****ty today. Things are looking up, militia.

Agamemnon
09-25-2011, 05:16 PM
You should learn to appreciate the little things though...our shiat ass players were a little less ****ty today. Things are looking up, militia.

It seems people forget that we lost five close games last year as well. Losing close games against meh teams doesn't show any real improvement.

bronco militia
09-25-2011, 05:18 PM
We look better in ways. On D we are faster and smarter.
Fox is just so conservative sometimes but that's what we hired him for . Stability.
But Orton on 3rd down and in "The Red Zone" is so
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6333/deerinheadlights.jpg

:spit::spit:

R8R H8R
09-25-2011, 05:18 PM
I called it the same way in the game thread Kaylore.



And that's not surprising either because funadementally we're playing better football. The basics like tackling, shedding, gap responsibility, disipline on STs it's all getting better.

No doubt it helps with a simplified defense but one only has to look at the sheer amount of times our defense last year was flagged, had to call time outs because we couldn't even get 11 guys on defense.

Look at the amount of times defenders routinely sliced into the backfield stuffing the RBs for a loss last year and see how little that's happened this year.

We definitely need more talent and no where is that more clear than at QB.

Agree completely. Unlike last year, I am seeing great improvement in all phases of the game from game to game, except QB. While the defense has some holes to it, and maybe it's just because of the obvious injuries on that side, I can clearly see the improvement on that side.

I think that if the Broncos go into the bye 1 and 4(a good possibility), Fox has to make the change to Tebow. At that point, the Orton "as a game manager" thing isn't working, because clearly he isn't good enough for the talent level that presently is on the roster.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 05:20 PM
It seems people forget that we lost five close games last year as well. Losing close games against meh teams doesn't show any real improvement.

I think we are def better than last year, but we suck in situational football

Gort
09-25-2011, 05:20 PM
I don't think you're in the minority. We're obviously getting better. Anyone who has followed football closely in recent years has a lot to be optimistic about after that performance.

Last years' team would have lost control of the game after the failed 4th down conversion.

this team has squandered 2 games where they had a very good chance to win. with the rest of our schedule, you can't do that. the 2011 Broncos will finish with a worse record than the 2010 Broncos. sure, they may have a little more talent, but at the end of the day, if they finish 1-15 or 2-14, nobody is going to remember 2011 as being a better season. it doesn't work that way. i'm frustrated that Fox didn't seize the opportunity today and during that Monday night game against the Raiders. those were 2 good opportunities that don't come around often.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 05:20 PM
You mean the fans that know what the Broncos are supposed to be? Yeah they're terrible...

No, I mean the fans that fail to acknowledge how far this team has eroded from a talent standpoint beginning at the twilight of the Shanny era, and multiplied x 10 during the McDaniel's era.

There are fans that can see improvement from this game to the Raider game (gap integrity, lack of penalties, tackling etc.) and can see that they accomplished this with 2 of their 3 best players out.

There are fans that can see what Fox is trying to do by emphasizing a ball control offense. He doing this because Denver has a game manager QB, and a lack of youth and talent at RB, and a young group of linemen that need improvement and evaluation. They can appreciate that he's not going to abandon it and adopt a Madden X,Y,Z, R1, R2 offense, because some fans are whiny with the process.

And despite lacking talent at key positions and being decimated by injuries yet again, they realize that Denver is 3-5 plays away from being 3-0.

bronco militia
09-25-2011, 05:20 PM
You should learn to appreciate the little things though...our shiat ass players were a little less ****ty today. Things are looking up, militia.

no offense to you and kaylore, but there's no such thing as moral victories in pro-football. guys get fired for games like this

Ray Finkle
09-25-2011, 05:21 PM
if they go 1-15 or 2-14 and lose the games by less than a touchdown, it is light years away from the last few years....

schaaf
09-25-2011, 05:22 PM
Get back to me on that after we start playing playoff caliber teams.

The titans laid a beat down on the Ravens last week? Care to explain that? We lost to the raiders by a field goal and the raiders had the bills beat before they pissed it down there leg. Those Bills just beat the New England Patriots and those Raiders are beating The jets (who played in the AFC championship game last year). There is no reason to not be disappointed with the loss but so far I have been very encouraged with the improvements on defense and the play of some young players on offense. I am still disappointed in our QB but that's a road I would prefer to not go down

Agamemnon
09-25-2011, 05:23 PM
No, I mean the fans that fail to acknowledge how far this team has eroded from a talent standpoint beginning at the twilight of the Shanny era, and multiplied x 10 during the McDaniel's era.

There are fans that can see improvement from this game to the Raider game (gap integrity, lack of penalties, tackling etc.) and can see that they accomplished this with 2 of their 3 best players out.

There are fans that can see what Fox is trying to do by emphasizing a ball control offense. He doing this because Denver has a game manager QB, and a lack of youth and talent at RB, and a young group of linemen that need improvement and evaluation. They can appreciate that he's not going to abandon it and adopt a Madden X,Y,Z, R1, R2 offense, because some fans are whiny with the process.

And despite lacking talent at key positions and being decimated by injuries yet again, they realize that Denver is 3-5 plays away from being 3-0.

Most 1-2 teams are 3-5 plays from being 3-0. Most NFL games are close fought affairs that hinge on key plays. Hell we were a dozen or so plays away from being 8-8 last year using your logic.

gyldenlove
09-25-2011, 05:25 PM
The offensive line is certainly improved, the defense is improved although the pass defense is still woeful and the only reason we are not giving up a million points is the dubious quality of the pass offenses we have faced. I fully expect Rivers and Rodgers to tear us a new one both length- and side-ways.

The run game is not much better than last year, we are just much more dedicated to it.

I think it is positive that we have very much been competitive in every game so far, we are not being blown out like last year, but I do miss some pizzazz on the offensive playcalling, it is extremely bland like neutral gray, and too conservative.

24champ
09-25-2011, 05:26 PM
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6333/deerinheadlights.jpg

:spit:

Agamemnon
09-25-2011, 05:26 PM
The titans laid a beat down on the Ravens last week? Care to explain that? We lost to the raiders by a field goal and the raiders had the bills beat before they pissed it down there leg. Those Bills just beat the New England Patriots and those Raiders are beating The jets (who played in the AFC championship game last year). There is no reason to not be disappointed with the loss but so far I have been very encouraged with the improvements on defense and the play of some young players on offense. I am still disappointed in our QB but that's a road I would prefer to not go down

We have yet to play a team with a true franchise QB or a high power offense. I think it's silly to think this team is not going to get straight up blown out three or four times this season.

R8R H8R
09-25-2011, 05:27 PM
if they go 1-15 or 2-14 and lose the games by less than a touchdown, it is light years away from the last few years....

I know what you mean, but we won't be that bad this year.

WABronco
09-25-2011, 05:28 PM
no offense to you and kaylore, but there's no such thing as moral victories in pro-football. guys get fired for games like this

That was a fail on my part. Extremely poor effort. Let me try again.

Thread sucks we blow donkey balls FML /wrists

Gort
09-25-2011, 05:32 PM
I know what you mean, but we won't be that bad this year.

last season, the Broncos started 1-2 as well.

week 1: lost to JAX by 7
week 2: beat SEA by 17
week 3: lost to IND by 14

total margin = -4

this season,

week 1: lost to OAK by 3
week 2: beat CIN by 2
week 3: lost to TEN by 3

total margin = -4

the games are closer, but last year we beat SEA by a bunch and they ended up in the playoffs. can we really say that our resume so far this year is better than our resume after 3 games last year? from a margin standpoint, they are the same and we all know how 2010 turned out.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 05:32 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

The OL is clearly getting better. They are still learning on the job and are a bit out-of-synch, but I think that they will have proved to us by the end of the year that they are a solution going forward, not a problem.

Beadles, Walton, and Franklin are all showing steady improvement.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 05:34 PM
Most 1-2 teams are 3-5 plays from being 3-0. Most NFL games are close fought affairs that hinge on key plays. Hell we were a dozen or so plays away from being 8-8 last year using your logic.

So what were your expectations this year considering we were the 2nd worst team in the league last year, coming in with a new staff and without a normal camp? Were you expecting A 1998 dream season where they rolled teams by 4 scores. Reality check, last year wasn't an anomaly. The record reflected the talent level of the team.

This year, the team has been highly competitive in all three games, and they are a QB upgrade away from probably being 3-0. Imo, this is now a slightly below the middle of the pack team, which Fox had playing tough defense on the road against a decent team that killed Baltimore last week. And he did this without having 2 out the 3 best players on defense playing.

Do you not see any improvement defensively from week to week and from last year?

Lolad
09-25-2011, 05:35 PM
These threads seem to be commonplace with the OP after losses. It's sad watching another coach do the same exact thing Mcdaniels did by leaving points on the field. Anybody remember how many times we went for it on 4 and 1 just to lose because of a bad call

Gort
09-25-2011, 05:36 PM
These threads seem to be commonplace with the OP after losses. It's sad watching another coach do the same exact thing Mcdaniels did by leaving points on the field. Anybody remember how many times we went for it on 4 and 1 just to lose because of a bad call

didn't McD go for it on 4th down 2 or 3 times in the IND game last year?

OABB
09-25-2011, 05:39 PM
last season, the Broncos started 1-2 as well.

week 1: lost to JAX by 7
week 2: beat SEA by 17
week 3: lost to IND by 14

total margin = -4

this season,

week 1: lost to OAK by 3
week 2: beat CIN by 2
week 3: lost to TEN by 3

total margin = -4

the games are closer, but last year we beat SEA by a bunch and they ended up in the playoffs. can we really say that our resume so far this year is better than our resume after 3 games last year? from a margin standpoint, they are the same and we all know how 2010 turned out.


If denver had an offensive player who could improve our scoring by 4points we'd be 3-0.

is there a player on the team who improves point production when he plays?



no....?




ok. that would be cool though right?

lostknight
09-25-2011, 05:41 PM
On D we are doing better. On O..... Despite having Decker, McGahee, a few number of tight ends, Willis, and a ton of weapons, the offense has regressed statistically so far.

Popps
09-25-2011, 05:41 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

Who cares if you're in the minority. Would you honestly want to be in the majority here? Have you looked around?

I agree, completely.

We've lost 2 games by less than a TD. One to a team that almost beat Buffalo and just did beat the Jets. The other to a team that had just whipped Baltimore.

We chose to leave points on the field today, otherwise we're at worst tied after the late INT.

The run D has been improved the past two weeks, and we've managed to coach pretty good games despite missing scores of critical players. We were running a scout team out there last week, and this week missing our best CB and pass-rusher. (And it showed in crunch time.)

Orton will take all the blame, and that's fine. That's forum 101. He certainly deserves some blame. Though he and the offense also gave us a chance to take a 7 point lead late in a road game. I don't really care to get into the slap-fight over him and Tebow. I'm convinced that both come with drawbacks, and positives. People can cry themselves to sleep over it if they want.

But, overall... this is a much more stable, well-coached organization right now, imo. Yes, passing on the FG was a bad decision, in retrospect. But, the staff doesn't get any credit for being able to put together game plans when the team is decimated with injury, and only marginally talented in the first place.

You put Champ, Doom, DJ and Knowshon out there today and we're a much better team. Yet, we found a way to stay in the game and should have won it.

To me, the glaring weakness is still on the OL. I'm not sure what we can do but just play through the season, at this point. I don't see our interior guys getting a lot better. McGahee is a nice inside runner, but we also suffered from not having a guy who could go out side or catch passes out of the backfield and make something happen today. (Moreno.)

We played disciplined football today, too. How many penalties. did we have? Just a few, no? That's a big improvement from game 1.

Remember the last few games of last season? Outside of the Texans comeback, we were getting destoyed. It was a disaster. This team is playing hard, and showing signs of improvement, despite a couple of close losses to apparently pretty decent teams.

Now, things could change for the better or worse in a few weeks. But, for now... there's some reason for optimism. We aren't winning a SB with Orton or Tebow this year. I just want to see a more balanced effort and higher quality output on the field this year.

Let's see what happens when we start getting some of our starters back.
As for the OL, that's going to continue to be a work in progress, at best. This game came down to not being able to move forward one yard when we needed to in the run game. Until you can do that, you're not going to be a winning team. I don't care who your QB is.

Kaylore
09-25-2011, 05:45 PM
On O..... Despite having Decker, McGahee, a few number of tight ends, Willis, and a ton of weapons, the offense has regressed statistically so far.

:spit: Yeah a "ton" of weapons. I love that you included "a number of tight ends." Sorry chief, but our offensive starters are below average.

troya900
09-25-2011, 05:47 PM
:spit: Yeah a "ton" of weapons. I love that you included "a number of tight ends." Sorry chief, but our offensive starters are below average.

Mainly AbOrton.

Kaylore
09-25-2011, 05:51 PM
These threads seem to be commonplace with the OP after losses.

I'm not sure what you mean. I almost always start a thread about the game afterwards, but its usually "Random thoughts about the .... game." So if you're saying I commonly make threads after a game, yes I do.

If you're saying I'm always starting threads saying we're getting better after losses, that is absolutely not true.

Example after a loss last year from one of my threads:

I can't defend this garbage that is barfing itself on the field. This is basically the same team that's been here for four years. A garbage team that gets embarrassed at home to division rivals. The "defense" sucks. The "offense" sucks and special teams sucks.

The Broncos are terrible and it's pretty clear McDaniels doesn't know how to fix it. I give him an A for effor and a D- for results. If he even lasts into next season unless we win more than 11 games and win at least one playoff game he's toast.

Finger Roll
09-25-2011, 05:52 PM
still looks like a 5-11 team to me. The offense is garbage just like thought it would be this year.

Kaylore
09-25-2011, 05:55 PM
still looks like a 5-11 team to me. The offense is garbage just like thought it would be this year.

Did you really? I thought the offense would be better but the defense would be worse.

I also got to give a shoutout to the special teams for at least putting on the appearance of competence this year. So many years of crap and we're actually starting to be competitive there.

McDman
09-25-2011, 05:55 PM
We won at Tennessee last year. We lost this year. How are we improving again?

So I see you are going to be the Jhizz of the Fox regime.

Gort
09-25-2011, 05:55 PM
Who cares if you're in the minority. Would you honestly want to be in the majority here? Have you looked around?

I agree, completely.

We've lost 2 games by less than a TD. One to a team that almost beat Buffalo and just did beat the Jets. The other to a team that had just whipped Baltimore.

We chose to leave points on the field today, otherwise we're at worst tied after the late INT.

The run D has been improved the past two weeks, and we've managed to coach pretty good games despite missing scores of critical players. We were running a scout team out there last week, and this week missing our best CB and pass-rusher. (And it showed in crunch time.)

Orton will take all the blame, and that's fine. That's forum 101. He certainly deserves some blame. Though he and the offense also gave us a chance to take a 7 point lead late in a road game. I don't really care to get into the slap-fight over him and Tebow. I'm convinced that both come with drawbacks, and positives. People can cry themselves to sleep over it if they want.

But, overall... this is a much more stable, well-coached organization right now, imo. Yes, passing on the FG was a bad decision, in retrospect. But, the staff doesn't get any credit for being able to put together game plans when the team is decimated with injury, and only marginally talented in the first place.

You put Champ, Doom, DJ and Knowshon out there today and we're a much better team. Yet, we found a way to stay in the game and should have won it.

To me, the glaring weakness is still on the OL. I'm not sure what we can do but just play through the season, at this point. I don't see our interior guys getting a lot better. McGahee is a nice inside runner, but we also suffered from not having a guy who could go out side or catch passes out of the backfield and make something happen today. (Moreno.)

We played disciplined football today, too. How many penalties. did we have? Just a few, no? That's a big improvement from game 1.

Remember the last few games of last season? Outside of the Texans comeback, we were getting destoyed. It was a disaster. This team is playing hard, and showing signs of improvement, despite a couple of close losses to apparently pretty decent teams.

Now, things could change for the better or worse in a few weeks. But, for now... there's some reason for optimism. We aren't winning a SB with Orton or Tebow this year. I just want to see a more balanced effort and higher quality output on the field this year.

Let's see what happens when we start getting some of our starters back.
As for the OL, that's going to continue to be a work in progress, at best. This game came down to not being able to move forward one yard when we needed to in the run game. Until you can do that, you're not going to be a winning team. I don't care who your QB is.

you're trying to hard to find a silver lining.

1) "We've lost 2 games by less than a TD. One to a team that almost beat Buffalo and just did beat the Jets. The other to a team that had just whipped Baltimore". this is what fans of bad teams do. they try to find some sort of moral victory by comparing how your opponents have done in other games. it doesn't work that way. there is no meaning to be found in such comparisons.

2) "this is a much more stable, well-coached organization right now". based on what? lots of mental mistakes on Monday night against the Raiders. they almost gave away the game in CIN late. they did give away the game today late. how is that good coaching? i'm sorry, but i don't see it. the playcalling has been atrocious and uninspired.

3) "Yes, passing on the FG was a bad decision". no, it wasn't a bad decision. running up the gut for the 3rd straight time was a bad decision. leaving a player on the bench who actually can cause RZ mismatches is a bad decision. this goes back to coaching. if you have some trick play in the playbook, that series was the time to break it out. apparently we don't. a boring, predictable offense seems to be all they have in the playbook this year.

4) "You put Champ, Doom, DJ and Knowshon out there today and we're a much better team". i actually think Knowshon being out is addition by subtraction. he just doesn't have anything at this level that defenses can't stop. as a change of pace back, maybe he offers some value. as a "go to" guy, gimme McGahee.

5) "Outside of the Texans comeback, we were getting destoyed. It was a disaster". the tough part of our schedule is starting now. the destruction will resume and this team is not deep enough or talented enough to stop it, and the coaching staff doesn't seem to be innovative enough to scheme against it. in short, things are going to go from bad to worse real fast now.

6) "This game came down to not being able to move forward one yard when we needed to in the run game. Until you can do that, you're not going to be a winning team. I don't care who your QB is". this i agree with. for a coach that promised a sophisticated running team, i'm not much impressed yet. if we can't run, then the tougher teams will start bringing the house on every play and all of Orton's problems will become magnified. it's gonna get ugly.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 05:56 PM
Again, this is still a talent deficient team (particularly on offense), brought about by years of questionable drafting, trading, and FA acquisition busts. This has been exasperated by injuries to Royal, Moreno, Thomas etc. And it's not like any of those guys are elite talent to begin with. They drafted heavy on defense last year, and appear to have hit on Miller and Moore. They'll likely have to hit on a couple of more high round offensive skill position players next year.

This is a rebuilding project, something that most Bronco fans have never had to deal with. So far, I think the rebuild is headed in the right direction, it's just going to be a slow process.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 05:58 PM
I thought the offense would be better but the defense would be worse.

No intent to derail, but this is confusing to me. Bring in a defensive coach, have a defense-heavy draft - and you felt the defense would be worse? ???

Finger Roll
09-25-2011, 05:59 PM
Did you really? I thought the offense would be better but the defense would be worse.

I also got to give a shoutout to the special teams for at least putting on the appearance of competence this year. So many years of crap and we're actually starting to be competitive there.

I thought the D would be around average with the additions of Miller, Bunkley, Moore and with Dumerville coming back. Plus adding coach Fox and Allen is a big upgrade over Martendale.

barryr
09-25-2011, 05:59 PM
Without playmakers on offense, a QB that can make plays out of nothing is needed, but Orton just can't do that type of thing very often. Spots are improved, but this isn't more than a 4 win team.

troya900
09-25-2011, 06:01 PM
No intent to derail, but this is confusing to me. Bring in a defensive coach, have a defense-heavy draft - and you felt the defense would be worse? ???

Well not sure on either of your guy's intent, but I believe Kaylore meant that the offense would look better than they are right now and the defense would look worse than they are right now, not off of how they played last year... I could be wrong though.

Bronx33
09-25-2011, 06:02 PM
Does anybody understand the level of damage thats going to happen to us next week? it will make Hiroshima look like a block party.

Gort
09-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Does anybody understand the level of damage thats going to happen to us next week? it will make Hiroshima look like a block party.

Party at Ground Zero. by Fishbone. youtube it. enjoy.

WABronco
09-25-2011, 06:04 PM
Does anybody understand the level of damage thats going to happen to us next week? it will make Hiroshima look like a block party.

lol.

I can already think of a silver lining--the potential for gallows humor as we are being reamed by cheeseheads.

Gort
09-25-2011, 06:05 PM
lol.

I can already think of a silver lining--the potential for gallows humor as we are being reamed by cheeseheads.

next week is going to be like a collective prostate exam for this entire forum.

everyone should practice bending over and coughing this week.

barryr
09-25-2011, 06:06 PM
Does anybody understand the level of damage thats going to happen to us next week? it will make Hiroshima look like a block party.

It will be ugly. I expect Tebow to get in some snaps in the game.

Steve Prefontaine
09-25-2011, 06:07 PM
The defense played well today, but the offense was a big pile of ****. I am pretty sure I know where that starts too. K_le O_ton.

Hint: it's Kyle Orton.

OABB
09-25-2011, 06:07 PM
at least it will bring a qb change closer...aw ****....no it wont. all the pain of losing and nothing to look forward to.


awesome.

mkporter
09-25-2011, 06:09 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

Pretty much sums up my feelings. Defense is showing pretty good improvement, particularly given that the offense isn't doing them any favors, and their two best players (for now, Von is quickly putting his name into this category) are injured. I hope that we give Tebow a shot sooner rather than later, but if not, I'm sure we'll see a new QB here next year either way.

WolfpackGuy
09-25-2011, 06:09 PM
Agreed.

Their draft position is getting better.

Wait till the defense wears down in a couple weeks for the real fun to start!

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 06:13 PM
Did you really? I thought the offense would be better but the defense would be worse.

I also got to give a shoutout to the special teams for at least putting on the appearance of competence this year. So many years of crap and we're actually starting to be competitive there.

Yeah! I mean this is progress!

::)

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 06:13 PM
at least it will bring a qb change closer...aw ****....no it wont. all the pain of losing and nothing to look forward to.


awesome.

At this point they have to be at least thinking in the back of their minds about making a change. However, I think that they are almost intentionally being obnoxious toward the fans.

When we're 1-4 at the bye, I think its going to be pretty difficult not to make the change. And at that point you'll have never heard so many media people make so many excuses for pathetic QB play. Then they'll lay the criticism on thick concerning everything that Tebow does from that point forward.

Lolad
09-25-2011, 06:17 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. I almost always start a thread about the game afterwards, but its usually "Random thoughts about the .... game." So if you're saying I commonly make threads after a game, yes I do.

If you're saying I'm always starting threads saying we're getting better after losses, that is absolutely not true.

Example after a loss last year from one of my threads:

Maybe I have you confused with Popps but threads of last year always had some type of moral victory attached to it. Are we a better team? Defensively yes, O? We should be better than last year with respect to the passing game. McCoy playcalling reminds me about the last 3 games.

gunns
09-25-2011, 06:18 PM
I hope you're not in the minority, although we have a very vocal element of whiny 1998 Superbowl era fans, that don't want to accept where this team is compared to the upper tier of the league from a talent standpoint.

I see improvement with Bunkley on the line. I see Von Miller getting better in run support each week. Ayers has been solid for two weeks in a row. It looks like Denver hit on two draft high draft picks in Miller and Moore. The secondary played pretty well considering no Champ, and the front 7 got OK pressure for not having Doom in the lineup. Offensively, Orton clearly isn't the answer, but 3rd down conversions were improved.

The team is moving in the right direction, the problem is a lack of physicality on the O-line, no franchise QB and injuries at skill positions.

It comes down to the fact that the front office needs another draft cycle to address the holes in the team left by the McDaniel's abortion. They need a speed back, a center that is stronger at the point of attack and a RT/G depending on whether or not they move Franklin inside eventually. They need to evaluate Tebow to determine if he has the potential to be a franchise QB, and if not they need to address it with 2012 no. 1.

I agree with your whole post but primarily the bolded. As you see, some of the posts by those you referred to in that post, they obviously didn't read further. It's refreshing to see it posted with out the whine and the self entitlement.

WABronco
09-25-2011, 06:18 PM
Should've flushed McCoy too. Cut away the poison.

broncocalijohn
09-25-2011, 06:28 PM
I know we are getting better but I am also sick of losing "close" ones when we have the chance to win. Once again, our goalline offensive plays suck. Pass..Incomplete, then run up the middle three times. Tebow knows how to hand off so put him in and at least the defense might be spread out a tad. TD means we go up two scores and win. Stuffed on 4th down means we are pushing the Defense to the limit. Last week = win. This week = loss.
Improvement,?Yes! Pissing me off? Yes!

WABronco
09-25-2011, 06:30 PM
Quick, trade a 4th rounder for a generic running back! Then we'll really build on this improvement!

go_broncos
09-25-2011, 06:32 PM
Maybe I have you confused with Popps but threads of last year always had some type of moral victory attached to it. Are we a better team? Defensively yes, O? We should be better than last year with respect to the passing game. McCoy playcalling reminds me about the last 3 games.

yep..he used to create a thread "Proud of the effort despite the loss".

DarkHorse30
09-25-2011, 06:33 PM
the playcalling has been atrocious and uninspired
running up the gut for the 3rd straight time was a bad decision. leaving a player on the bench who actually can cause RZ mismatches is a bad decision. this goes back to coaching. if you have some trick play in the playbook, that series was the time to break it out. apparently we don't. a boring, predictable offense seems to be all they have in the playbook this year
i actually think Knowshon being out is addition by subtraction. he just doesn't have anything at this level that defenses can't stop. as a change of pace back, maybe he offers some value. as a "go to" guy, gimme McGahee
for a coach that promised a sophisticated running team, i'm not much impressed yet.


I agree with all of these points.....and at the same time, I think that Fox won't do anything to "mess" with the offense, because I think HE thinks it is as successful as it needs to be.....see Jake Delhomme. I am ashamed to say that when Orton was laying on the ground after a hit, Fox's decision to bench Orton was not going to be necessary. Unfortunately...and I hate myself for thinking this way....Orton got up and went back in. There is no trickplays and no change up because I don't think Orton is capable of running it. I honestly think he's a bit of a dim bulb.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 06:33 PM
yep..he used to create a thread "Proud of the effort despite the loss".

Haha I forgot about that!

FTR, that's the SAME guy that used to call me a Raider fan for thinking 8-8 with 10,000 injuries and a young core of explosive offensive players that just set franchise records was on the right track.

rugbythug
09-25-2011, 06:43 PM
Vonn is special enough to build a D around.
DL is no longer the worst part of the team.
DE is actually decent. 4 deep solid rotation.

OL pass blocked well- No running lanes.


we need a 3rd down back.
We need decent QB play. Hasselbeck would make this a much better team.

gunns
09-25-2011, 06:51 PM
Did you really? I thought the offense would be better but the defense would be worse.

I also got to give a shoutout to the special teams for at least putting on the appearance of competence this year. So many years of crap and we're actually starting to be competitive there.

I was the opposite. I expected the D to be better and the O to be stuck, primarily of the uncertainty of the OL and the QB position. I'm pleasantly surprised by the D's progress in stopping the run despite not having a stellar line. I really look forward to next year when the needs can be filled. Personally I'm thrilled they didn't jump in the draft just to get a DT. The only one worth having, it appears right now, is Dareus and I'm happy with Miller. I think the future looks bright.

gunns
09-25-2011, 06:53 PM
Should've flushed McCoy too. Cut away the poison.

This I whole heartedly agree with.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 06:56 PM
Vonn is special enough to build a D around.
DL is no longer the worst part of the team.
DE is actually decent. 4 deep solid rotation.

OL pass blocked well- No running lanes.


we need a 3rd down back.
We need decent QB play. Hasselbeck would make this a much better team.

Repped.

This is going to be a multi phase process of rebuilding. The most important thing is that the defense has shown improvement despite the veteran injuries. Von Miller is the type of young blue chip talent you build a defense around. Derrick Harvey was thought of as a bust, but at least showed something today resembling a 1st round pick. Bunkley looks healthy and is finally starting to play like a first rounder. Moore played decently for a rookie, in fact the entire secondary played fairly well. Now if Denver adds Champ, D.J. and Elvis back into the equation, that might turn into something special.

Denver needs explosiveness at the RB position. They need more than a game manager QB, and they need to get healthy at the WR and TE positions. They might need a center upgrade, but overall there is improvement in two of the three phases of the game (special teams, defense) compared to last year.

Popps
09-25-2011, 07:08 PM
Maybe I have you confused with Popps but threads of last year always had some type of moral victory attached to it.

Actually, the thread you're referring to was one started the week one of our popular young players killed himself, and our team almost stole a victory in a game we had no business winning. Most people understood the simple sentiment behind it.

As for this week, I wouldn't say I'm proud of this game at all... but I understand and agree with Kaylore's sentiment that the team is showing some subtle signs of improvement, despite the W/L record at this point. (Did anyone really think we'd be 3-0 at this point? Even 2-1?? I thought 2 wins was possible and we almost got there, but we were a 4-12 team last year.)

Kaylore is a quality poster and doesn't go for the narrow view of things. Most here would do well to read more of his posts, and post less themselves.

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 07:09 PM
1 lucky win thanks to a bad decision by marvin lewis, and today another L earned with pigheaded stubbornness in playcalling and personnel, with no hope in sight until next april.

Yay.

Von Miller rules.

KO chokes again.

Suprise suprise.

I hope mile high is empty in Oct.

McDman
09-25-2011, 07:14 PM
Vonn is special enough to build a D around.
DL is no longer the worst part of the team.
DE is actually decent. 4 deep solid rotation.

OL pass blocked well- No running lanes.


we need a 3rd down back.
We need decent QB play. Hasselbeck would make this a much better team.

We have a third down back, Moreno. The one thing he has consistently been good at is third down situations.

Regardless of who our backs our we won't be able to run if our interior OL doesn't get better.

Rolandftw
09-25-2011, 07:31 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with finding a silver lining in losses. The ultimate goal is obvious to be a championship level team and to win more regular season games.

But this team is not winning a championship this season, so if players are sticking out as good players then their continued improvement is something to look forward to.

1-2 isn't where anyone wants to be, and it looks like there is a good chance to be 1-4 at the bye. Can only hope they steal a game from San Diego, like KC almost did today.

GreatBronco16
09-25-2011, 07:33 PM
It keeps coming back to this, doesn't it?

They are going to do this when it is too late in the season. They'll give him 2-3 games with mostly backups (while everyone else is hurt) then after that and we aren't winning, they can say, see, we told ya so.

strafen
09-25-2011, 07:39 PM
Orton is 0-1 when the defense allows only 17 points
Just thought I brought that up :D

montrose
09-25-2011, 07:42 PM
Immediate improvement on defense? Yes. Also marginal improvement in pass protection but in the long run of things, beyond this season, I dont know yet if they'll be better. Have we seen tangible growth from young players who could be key contributors in the future? I'd say Decker and Franklin, maybe even Ayers a little bit. But Beadles, Walton, J.Thomas, Green, Vaughn, even Moore- I wouldnt say any of them of stood out or improved so much thus far that I'd say, now thats a spot settled for the future! Throw in the that the only certainity surrounding the QB position is the guy taking the snaps wont be here next year and I find it difficult to say the Broncos are getting better for the long term. Very similar to the situation Seattle went through from last year to this year.

In the short term, I can certainly see the defense improving each week this season as they're further taught the system and Champ, Doom and DJ come back - probably enough improvement to merit the long awaited "we finished better than we started!" and eek out just enough wins to take the team out of contention for the best QB prospect in 15 years.

I do think they're being coached well defensively and in a sport that's always moving in cycles, its quite possible that in a few years once (presumably) the talent pool is improved that Fox's old school style will be the rage again opposed to looking outdated as some may see it now. Hasselbeck's given the Titans a spark and I my present guess would be the Broncos find a similar aging vet to come in to buy Fox more time while they hope to find a young, non-1st round QB to draft and develop in the next few years.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 07:44 PM
They are going to do this when it is too late in the season. They'll give him 2-3 games with mostly backups (while everyone else is hurt) then after that and we aren't winning, they can say, see, we told ya so.

Nah, I don't think it will take that long. Five games in, the team will most likely be 1-4, and I think at that point the Tebow evaluation starts at Miami. It will basically be a homecoming type game, against a relatively sucky team. Then he gets a tough home start against Detroit, a tough road game against Oakland and an Arrowhead game, where the Chefs will be head long into the Luck sweepstakes. That gives Tebow a real possibility to go at least .500 going into the 2nd half of the season. After that, they will have a real idea where the team stands at the QB position going into the 2012 draft.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 07:49 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

Honestly, I still don't understand this post.

"We shut down Chris Johnson"?

Who hasn't? The Titans run blocking has been **** so far. He's averaging 2.1 ypc on the season.

FFS, Hasselback went SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT (that's a 7 followed by a 5 and NOT vice versa) on his passing today, put up over 300 yards, two touchdowns and a 120 QB rating.

The Titans on the whole had a 53% conversion on 3rd down... that would be an NFL record if they could keep that up.

And we're seriously raving the performance of an OL that rushed for 2.6 ypc and couldn't punch it in on the 1 yard line? Or is this a "GREAT SUCCESS!" because they didn't have holding penalties out the balls for once?

Jay3
09-25-2011, 07:55 PM
Honestly, I still don't understand this post.

"We shut down Chris Johnson"?

Who hasn't? The Titans run blocking has been **** so far. He's averaging 2.1 ypc on the season.

FFS, Hasselback went SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT (that's a 7 followed by a 5 and NOT vice versa) on his passing today, put up over 300 yards, two touchdowns and a 120 QB rating.

The Titans on the whole had a 53% conversion on 3rd down... that would be an NFL record if they could keep that up.

And we're seriously raving the performance of an OL that rushed for 2.6 ypc and couldn't punch it in on the 1 yard line? Or is this a "GREAT SUCCESS!" because they didn't have holding penalties out the balls for once?

It could have been a blowout if not for the penalties.

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 08:00 PM
Our def is much better this year. The Qb is killing us. Its not going to change.


Orton will not be replaced w/out injury. Trust that. EFX has no plans on playing Tebow because every success will make it harder next year when they draft a qb.

The only way we see a change, is if attendance drops.

Maybe week 15 or so.

Hulamau
09-25-2011, 08:06 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

Anyone talking of getting rid of Fox and Elway now are being childish. The D is miles better with the most important starters still out. This is a work in progress this year. Orton is a stop gap and not the answer. Tebow is questionable as well long term. we'll see. but we are moving in the right direction.

Popps
09-25-2011, 08:23 PM
The Titans on the whole had a 53% conversion on 3rd down... that would be an NFL record if they could keep that up.


Tenn - 8/15 on 3rd down.

Den - 8//15 on 3rd down.



And we're seriously raving the performance of an OL that rushed for 2.6 ypc and couldn't punch it in on the 1 yard line?

"We?"

Not sure what you're reading. I haven't seen one person "rave" the OL today.

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 08:32 PM
We have so many needs, any improving we do is marginalized by the turnover we will have in 2012. Probably need a new g, 2 dts, a qb, corners are getting old.

If we concentrate on the young guys like decker, von, moore, etc... Improvement is great.

Meanwhile champ, goodman, dawk , kuper, dj will deteriorate towards retirement.

As for giving all these reps to kyyyl as John calls him, what a waste of time.

Hes not improving, he sucks, and could care less about the fans, and thinks hes hot sht.

” I let my play talk for me”

Well outside of garbage time blowouts and cover 4 you fing suck Orton.

I really really hate watching us on offense.

On the brightside our fav lds bronco made some nice catches.

Kaylore
09-25-2011, 08:35 PM
No intent to derail, but this is confusing to me. Bring in a defensive coach, have a defense-heavy draft - and you felt the defense would be worse? ???

I felt the defense would be worse than it is playing right now, not worse than last year. I believe we were last in the league last year. Right now our scoring defense is actually decent.


Maybe I have you confused with Popps but threads of last year always had some type of moral victory attached to it. Are we a better team? Defensively yes, O? We should be better than last year with respect to the passing game. McCoy playcalling reminds me about the last 3 games.
I'd love for you to quote me. I am someone that points out the good and bad regardless of the outcome. If we win, I don't believe "everything's fine" and when we lose I don't believe "everything sucks."

Honestly, I still don't understand this post.

"We shut down Chris Johnson"?

Who hasn't? The Titans run blocking has been **** so far. He's averaging 2.1 ypc on the season.

FFS, Hasselback went SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT (that's a 7 followed by a 5 and NOT vice versa) on his passing today, put up over 300 yards, two touchdowns and a 120 QB rating.

The Titans on the whole had a 53% conversion on 3rd down... that would be an NFL record if they could keep that up.

And we're seriously raving the performance of an OL that rushed for 2.6 ypc and couldn't punch it in on the 1 yard line? Or is this a "GREAT SUCCESS!" because they didn't have holding penalties out the balls for once?
Yeah when did I ever say this was a "great success!" Don't put words in my mouth! I believe I actually said they're improving (and they are) and we could stand to add more talent there. And yes, Hasselbeck looked good without our HOF Corner and Elvis playing at home. He racked up a whole 17 points on us!

By the way, against the Ravens last week he was 71% for 358 yards. I don't think we're as good as the Ravens D (clearly) so maybe accepting that Hasselbeck is a good player is in order and he can get his.

Anyone talking of getting rid of Fox and Elway now are being childish. The D is miles better with the most important starters still out. This is a work in progress this year. Orton is a stop gap and not the answer. Tebow is questionable as well long term. we'll see. but we are moving in the right direction.
I think that is the most shocking thing about all this whining. It's patently clear this team needs a complete overhaul, but its even more clear the fan base and media don't have the patience for one. The fan base is a bunch of idiots. They want an awesome team but refuse to go through the growing pains necessary to build one the right way. We lose by three points on the road to a tough team and its team to clean house again!

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:35 PM
Tenn - 8/15 on 3rd down.

Den - 8//15 on 3rd down.

...That has what to do with the post?

mkporter
09-25-2011, 08:38 PM
We have so many needs, any improving we do is marginalized by the turnover we will have in 2012. Probably need a new g, 2 dts, a qb, corners are getting old.

If we concentrate on the young guys like decker, von, moore, etc... Improvement is great.

Meanwhile champ, goodman, dawk , kuper, dj will deteriorate towards retirement.

As for giving all these reps to kyyyl as John calls him, what a waste of time.

Kuper is 28, he was plenty of mileage left in the tank. Bunkley has also looked pretty stout at DT. We could probably use another as we've been hit with injury, though. Definitely need more CBs, and a QB. Maybe a MLB too, Mays is (big) hit or miss, hopefully his consistency improves.

lonestar
09-25-2011, 08:39 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.
Our defensive was outstanding. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.
I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

Actually it was not JUST what Josh did but the piss poor drafting one day one for the last 15 years or so.

When Josh came to town we had zero depth on the team. Had decent to great starters on the oline but absolutletly nothing behind Clady.

As for dine nothing to quite home about after Doom. LB were a mixed bag
WR two great kids in Eddie and BM (head case) beyond that no starter material or at least no long term.

RB well that has been a joke for a VERY long time inside the red zone.

I know tyat everyone thought jaysus was the **** but all you have to see is his performance since he left. Great between the 20's. In the red zone this team has stunk to high heaven since the superbowl guys retired.

Lots of yards but more FG than TDs since. FG do not win BIG games.

We have sucked big time on the LOS since those SB Players moved on.
We have KO deity because our day one drafts have yielded IIRC 4-5 out of about 45 players that have actually signed a second contract with the broncos after their rookie contract expired. Almost al of the talent on the squad when Josh came to town were 4th rounders or later on draft day or UFA that were signed to fat contracts.
That folks is NO way to run A railroad.
Yes bm, jaysus , ts and Hillis were good talents but we alll know tyat the cap situation as It was was not going to allow us to sign all of them and DOOM, Kuper and Clady to future contracts.

With the exception if Hillis they'll all either worked or whined their way out of town. While Josh may have been able to keep them other than Hillis all have been less than stellar with their new teams or police departments.

McDman
09-25-2011, 08:40 PM
Immediate improvement on defense? Yes. Also marginal improvement in pass protection but in the long run of things, beyond this season, I dont know yet if they'll be better. Have we seen tangible growth from young players who could be key contributors in the future? I'd say Decker and Franklin, maybe even Ayers a little bit. But Beadles, Walton, J.Thomas, Green, Vaughn, even Moore- I wouldnt say any of them of stood out or improved so much thus far that I'd say, now thats a spot settled for the future! Throw in the that the only certainity surrounding the QB position is the guy taking the snaps wont be here next year and I find it difficult to say the Broncos are getting better for the long term. Very similar to the situation Seattle went through from last year to this year.

In the short term, I can certainly see the defense improving each week this season as they're further taught the system and Champ, Doom and DJ come back - probably enough improvement to merit the long awaited "we finished better than we started!" and eek out just enough wins to take the team out of contention for the best QB prospect in 15 years.

I do think they're being coached well defensively and in a sport that's always moving in cycles, its quite possible that in a few years once (presumably) the talent pool is improved that Fox's old school style will be the rage again opposed to looking outdated as some may see it now. Hasselbeck's given the Titans a spark and I my present guess would be the Broncos find a similar aging vet to come in to buy Fox more time while they hope to find a young, non-1st round QB to draft and develop in the next few years.

J. Thomas has played one game. Green has played two. Moore has played three.

You're already jumping to the conclusion they haven't improved? Seems a little quick.

lonestar
09-25-2011, 08:45 PM
Sorry about some of that post but I'm traveling and my IPhone changes spelling on some words to where I'm not sure of what it was supposed to read.
Setting at Lax on my way home.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 08:45 PM
Yeah when did I ever say this was a "great success!" Don't put words in my mouth! I believe I actually said they're improving (and they are) and we could stand to add more talent there. And yes, Hasselbeck looked good without our HOF Corner and Elvis playing at home. He racked up a whole 17 points on us!

Then point out the improvement? Aside from a bunch of miscues (11 penalties for 80 yards, the few Hasselback INCs were several times an inch away from big Chris Johnson gains, etc), I didn't see any improvement outside of a few guys who learned how not to hold or had more lenient calling.

By the way, against the Ravens last week he was 71% for 358 yards. I don't think we're as good as the Ravens D (clearly) so maybe accepting that Hasselbeck is a good player is in order and he can get his.

And he went 60% against the Jags so they must have the best defense ever!

Silly. As of right now you can probably call that Baltimore game a classic trap game and move on. If you want a sample size to look at, check out the performance of other QBs weve faced so far.

It's embarrassing. Again.

I think that is the most shocking thing about all this whining. It's patently clear this team needs a complete overhaul, but its even more clear the fan base and media don't have the patience for one. The fan base is a bunch of idiots. They want an awesome team but refuse to go through the growing pains necessary to build one the right way. We lose by three points on the road to a tough team and its team to clean house again!

I know you were responding to someone else, but I'll hop in here.

How about we already DID do the overhaul? We DID do it, had an injury plagued season and missing the playoffs via tie breaker wasn't good enough.

Now we're sitting here, several years later, one of the worst teams and franchises in the NFL and, hey, our owner won't spend money to field a competitive ****ing ball club either.

That team that just beat us that no one was surprised about? They won 6 games last year and are also enduring the new head coach, etc growing pains. Only THEIR QB doesn't have time in the system already.

So spare me. We shouldn't be here as a team and a franchise and losing in Denver should never become "acceptable". Quite frankly it's sad that it has to even remotely this level.

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 08:56 PM
Comparing games week to week vs diff opponents is a worthless exercise. Next up, justifying VY and Garrard because they played in a probowl.

The only way I see to change the fate of this team wont happen because kcus rof kvul, $$$, lockerroom politics, and stubborn idiots.

Kaylore
09-25-2011, 08:56 PM
Then point out the improvement? Aside from a bunch of miscues (11 penalties for 80 yards, the few Hasselback INCs were several times an inch away from big Chris Johnson gains, etc), I didn't see any improvement outside of a few guys who learned how not to hold or had more lenient calling.



And he went 60% against the Jags so they must have the best defense ever!

Silly. As of right now you can probably call that Baltimore game a classic trap game and move on. If you want a sample size to look at, check out the performance of other QBs weve faced so far.

It's embarrassing. Again.



I know you were responding to someone else, but I'll hop in here.

How about we already DID do the overhaul? We DID do it, had an injury plagued season and missing the playoffs via tie breaker wasn't good enough.

Now we're sitting here, several years later, one of the worst teams and franchises in the NFL and, hey, our owner won't spend money to field a competitive ****ing ball club either.

That team that just beat us that no one was surprised about? They won 6 games last year and are also enduring the new head coach, etc growing pains. Only THEIR QB doesn't have time in the system already.

So spare me. We shouldn't be here as a team and a franchise and losing in Denver should never become "acceptable". Quite frankly it's sad that it has to even remotely this level.

You've really become a complete whiny baby. Seriously. We need more of this around here too. Please complain more about how Tebow isn't starting and Shahanan shouldn't have been fired. That really adds to this forum. Please complain we don't spend money on the defensive line, and when we do for Bannon, Williams and Jarvis-Green, please complain when it doesn't work out. Whine, whine, whine.

hambone13
09-25-2011, 08:57 PM
So what were your expectations this year considering we were the 2nd worst team in the league last year, coming in with a new staff and without a normal camp? Were you expecting A 1998 dream season where they rolled teams by 4 scores. Reality check, last year wasn't an anomaly. The record reflected the talent level of the team.

This year, the team has been highly competitive in all three games, and they are a QB upgrade away from probably being 3-0. Imo, this is now a slightly below the middle of the pack team, which Fox had playing tough defense on the road against a decent team that killed Baltimore last week. And he did this without having 2 out the 3 best players on defense playing.

Do you not see any improvement defensively from week to week and from last year?

We have NOT been highly competitive in all three games. We have show that other teams mistakes are not things we can capitalize on but make it appear we're executing more effectively than we are.

NFLBRONCO
09-25-2011, 09:01 PM
We should be 3-0 but, we are 1-2 we are better in some ways but, FAR from good

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 09:02 PM
You've really become a complete whiny baby. Seriously. We need more of this around here too. Please complain more about how Tebow isn't starting and Shahanan shouldn't have been fired. That really adds to this forum. Please complain we don't spend money on the defensive line, and when we do for Bannon, Williams and Jarvis-Green, please complain when it doesn't work out. Whine, whine, whine.

Well instead I can make posts saying "Look at the improvement!" and then have zero supporting examples.

And then I can randomly call people bigger Shanahan fans than Bronco fans for NO OTHER REASON than because I'm still in denial that I was wrong.

The reality: Where we are. When you want to talk about YOUR OWN POST and try to support the gaping ****ing holes in it, let me know.

Until then, keep up the work like this. ::)

hambone13
09-25-2011, 09:05 PM
Who cares if you're in the minority. Would you honestly want to be in the majority here? Have you looked around?

I agree, completely.

We've lost 2 games by less than a TD. One to a team that almost beat Buffalo and just did beat the Jets. The other to a team that had just whipped Baltimore.

We chose to leave points on the field today, otherwise we're at worst tied after the late INT.

The run D has been improved the past two weeks, and we've managed to coach pretty good games despite missing scores of critical players. We were running a scout team out there last week, and this week missing our best CB and pass-rusher. (And it showed in crunch time.)

Orton will take all the blame, and that's fine. That's forum 101. He certainly deserves some blame. Though he and the offense also gave us a chance to take a 7 point lead late in a road game. I don't really care to get into the slap-fight over him and Tebow. I'm convinced that both come with drawbacks, and positives. People can cry themselves to sleep over it if they want.

But, overall... this is a much more stable, well-coached organization right now, imo. Yes, passing on the FG was a bad decision, in retrospect. But, the staff doesn't get any credit for being able to put together game plans when the team is decimated with injury, and only marginally talented in the first place.

You put Champ, Doom, DJ and Knowshon out there today and we're a much better team. Yet, we found a way to stay in the game and should have won it.

To me, the glaring weakness is still on the OL. I'm not sure what we can do but just play through the season, at this point. I don't see our interior guys getting a lot better. McGahee is a nice inside runner, but we also suffered from not having a guy who could go out side or catch passes out of the backfield and make something happen today. (Moreno.)

We played disciplined football today, too. How many penalties. did we have? Just a few, no? That's a big improvement from game 1.

Remember the last few games of last season? Outside of the Texans comeback, we were getting destoyed. It was a disaster. This team is playing hard, and showing signs of improvement, despite a couple of close losses to apparently pretty decent teams.

Now, things could change for the better or worse in a few weeks. But, for now... there's some reason for optimism. We aren't winning a SB with Orton or Tebow this year. I just want to see a more balanced effort and higher quality output on the field this year.

Let's see what happens when we start getting some of our starters back.
As for the OL, that's going to continue to be a work in progress, at best. This game came down to not being able to move forward one yard when we needed to in the run game. Until you can do that, you're not going to be a winning team. I don't care who your QB is.

Always the eternal optimist over BS for what ever coach is in place. One thing is certain about you Popps, "The Coach is always right". I remember players like you when I played. You have your tongue so far up their ass that you can't see the improvement necessary in front of you. You backed McD the same way you're backing Fox now, with elements of optimism that have nothing to do with the root problem. It's at QB and coaching. This game is won with improvement on either of those fronts. I will concede however that there are measurable elements of improvement, many of which you mentioned but that doesn't change the fact that the offensive and administrative leadership of this team is ****ting the bed.

lonestar
09-25-2011, 09:07 PM
We have lots of kiddies in key positions. DT and Decker at WR.
Beadles, Franklin and JD on the OL. May take a couple of years for them to all be a cohesive unit. Not like any other group in Football to become suoer smooth takes a long time to "know" what the guy next to Jim is going to do in a given situation. At this levelyou have to instantly react to him. Not stop to think even for a millisecond as the peppers and Dooms of the DL world will beat you if you do. The best OLs have been together for years. They wil get better with each game until they great. DLs and LBs to some degree are the same but because of all the subsitutions Much less so.
OLs unless some one is hurt are basically on the field for every snap as a unit. RBs not sure that KNowshon is the answer but they are a dime a dozen.

QB I think TEbow is our FQB but is not ready now needs to have this year to work on the throwing/under center stuff that should have been done in college.

On D we have major holes to plug at DT with only one keeper that I have seen in Bunkley. Maybe MT and T Warren but weneed to be drafting their
replacements for back up over the next couple of years
Not sold on any of The LBs save Von, DJ has never impressed me While he has loads of tackles very few are for losses or at the LOS.

DB well not sure what we have there but many teams have great DLs and LB get away with ok talent back there.

bronco militia
09-25-2011, 09:09 PM
We could be 3-0 but, we are 1-2 we are better but, FAR from good

fixed

rugbythug
09-25-2011, 09:11 PM
Well instead I can make posts saying "Look at the improvement!" and then have zero supporting examples.

And then I can randomly call people bigger Shanahan fans than Bronco fans for NO OTHER REASON than because I'm still in denial that I was wrong.

The reality: Where we are. When you want to talk about YOUR OWN POST and try to support the gaping ****ing holes in it, let me know.

Until then, keep up the work like this. ::)

Those amazing players you whine for are middle of the road starters. We were getting blown out by 30+ let's not whitewash. We are playing better.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 09:14 PM
We have NOT been highly competitive in all three games. We have show that other teams mistakes are not things we can capitalize on but make it appear we're executing more effectively than we are.

Really? I always thought it was the game being close, with an opportunity to win at the end that defined highly competitive, but thanks for clarifying. Honestly, I don't know what "showing other teams mistakes are not things we can capitalize on" means, but for the majority of the game the Titans running game was executed about as effectively as cat **** in a box, because the defense played well. In the end, Denver lacked the offensive talent and QB play to finish a tough team on the road. Again, the Broncos are rebuilding, but they have been competitive in every game.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 09:18 PM
Those amazing players you whine for are middle of the road starters. We were getting blown out by 30+ let's not whitewash. We are playing better.

...And what players did I "whine for"?

Please expand? Or are you just going off the bull**** that Kaylore posted about me that's not even true?

This off-season I cared about TWO. Cofield and Joseph (Atogwe if you count pre lockout). Both are playing at a fantastic level right now... Joseph has 2 picks in 3 games along with the standard solid coverage and Cofield is anchoring one of the best defenses in the league atm.

Requiem
09-25-2011, 09:23 PM
Better my nuts.

After losses to Green Bay and San Diego, it will be fun to revisit this.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 09:25 PM
Better my nuts.

After losses to Green Bay and San Diego, it will be fun to revisit this.

Clearly you're a bigger Shanahan fan than a Bronco fan.

Requiem
09-25-2011, 09:27 PM
Clearly you're a bigger Shanahan fan than a Bronco fan.

No, I'm just a realist.

If the turd QB's we have faced thus far can toss it up on us, I fear to see what Rodgers and Rivers will do.

It is going to be a massacre at Lambeau.

Taco John
09-25-2011, 09:27 PM
I'm having a tough time digesting this game. This is one of the easy games on our schedule. We could have won this one. It seems like a huge missed opportunity to me. That said, I did feel good about the game while in the middle of it. I thought we would win it, especially after that last touchdown we had. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that the hopeless feeling that I had all last season sunk in, and we didn't seem to be able to do anything at all. That part is very frustrating for me, because in my heart I believe that Tebow (there I said it) would be fighting for every last inch in the fourth quarter, and with Orton I feel like he's just out there fighting not to make a mistake.

GreatBronco16
09-25-2011, 09:28 PM
Those amazing players you whine for are middle of the road starters. We were getting blown out by 30+ let's not whitewash. We are playing better.

Actually through the first three games last year, we gave up 65 points.

Through the first 3 games this year, we have given up 62.

We played the high powered Indy in our third game last year too.

TheReverend
09-25-2011, 09:31 PM
No, I'm just a realist.

If the turd QB's we have faced thus far can toss it up on us, I fear to see what Rodgers and Rivers will do.

It is going to be a massacre at Lambeau.

I was being sarcastic...

Requiem
09-25-2011, 09:33 PM
I was being sarcastic...

I'm sorry bud. :twokisses

hambone13
09-25-2011, 09:37 PM
Really? I always thought it was the game being close, with an opportunity to win at the end that defined highly competitive, but thanks for clarifying. Honestly, I don't know what "showing other teams mistakes are not things we can capitalize on" means, but for the majority of the game the Titans running game was executed about as effectively as cat **** in a box, because the defense played well. In the end, Denver lacked the offensive talent and QB play to finish a tough team on the road. Again, the Broncos are rebuilding, but they have been competitive in every game.

The only reason we were in the Oakland and Titans' game was due to their sloppy play. We wouldn't have had sustained drives that lead to scores without their mistakes. We were lucky to appear competitive in both of those games. The Titans haven't been able to run the ball all season. Suddenly, "we're improving" on run defense. Whatever. I'll agree that we didn't allow many yards in this game but they haven't been able to run against anyone. I see mild improvements but their not proven yet. Tenn is not a good team. The won a trap game against Baltimore because Hasselbeck shouldn't have been as ready as he was but he's actually a pretty good QB. He was the difference in that game.

hambone13
09-25-2011, 09:39 PM
I'm having a tough time digesting this game. This is one of the easy games on our schedule. We could have won this one. It seems like a huge missed opportunity to me. That said, I did feel good about the game while in the middle of it. I thought we would win it, especially after that last touchdown we had. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that the hopeless feeling that I had all last season sunk in, and we didn't seem to be able to do anything at all. That part is very frustrating for me, because in my heart I believe that Tebow (there I said it) would be fighting for every last inch in the fourth quarter, and with Orton I feel like he's just out there fighting not to make a mistake.

I felt exactly the same way. It actually didn't even affect my physically when KO threw that tipped INT. I knew something like that was going to happen. It might have been more exciting if they would have just kicked the field goal.

barryr
09-25-2011, 09:40 PM
If the Broncos can not beat a mediocre Titan team, then there really aren't many teams the Broncos can beat. The defense has some improvements, but still another good draft and free agency away from being where it needs to be. But the offense needs some major impact players at RB and WR if going to go with Orton at QB.

montrose
09-25-2011, 09:43 PM
J. Thomas has played one game. Green has played two. Moore has played three.

You're already jumping to the conclusion they haven't improved? Seems a little quick.

Not saying they coukdnt or wont, they very well may. Just saying we havent really seen anything since the regular season began to really hang our hat on in terms of their improvement or that a certain spot will be filled for the long run.

Popps
09-25-2011, 09:58 PM
You've really become a complete whiny baby..


That's offensive to whiny babies.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:00 PM
Not saying they coukdnt or wont, they very well may. Just saying we havent really seen anything since the regular season began to really hang our hat on in terms of their improvement or that a certain spot will be filled for the long run.

Where are you getting the idea from that Beadles and Walton aren't improving? I'd like to know which plays that you are referring to.

Popps
09-25-2011, 10:02 PM
Always the eternal optimist over BS for what ever coach is in place. One thing is certain about you Popps, "The Coach is always right". I remember players like you when I played. You have your tongue so far up their ass that you can't see the improvement necessary in front of you. You backed McD the same way you're backing Fox now, with elements of optimism that have nothing to do with the root problem. It's at QB and coaching. This game is won with improvement on either of those fronts. I will concede however that there are measurable elements of improvement, many of which you mentioned but that doesn't change the fact that the offensive and administrative leadership of this team is ****ting the bed.

lol! I just envision you weeping as you post this, maybe drooling and screaming, too.

I liked some of what McDaniels did and believe in giving a coach time to implement his system. McD's didn't work out, and he ran himself out of town.

Fox has been here for exactly 3 games. Sorry, I'm not going to wet myself like you goof-balls around here over it.

I was Shanahan's biggest defender around here for years. But, when it was time for him to go, I was one of the first to recognize it. I took that stance and was in the minority, as you may imagine.

The coach isn't always right. But you mouth-breathing message board guys aren't, either.

Fox is going to be here a while. You can be mad at me about it it if makes you feel better. But, he's going to get a fair chance to do his job.

By the way, I have no idea who you are... and I'm not sure why you seem to think you know so much about me. Kind of creepy.

24champ
09-25-2011, 10:02 PM
I think that is the most shocking thing about all this whining. It's patently clear this team needs a complete overhaul, but its even more clear the fan base and media don't have the patience for one. The fan base is a bunch of idiots. They want an awesome team but refuse to go through the growing pains necessary to build one the right way. We lose by three points on the road to a tough team and its team to clean house again!

We've already been through several "overhauls" the last few seasons, going back to the end of the Shanahan era when he was retooling the Broncos offense.

We're not going to get the proper overhaul until Pat Bowlen sells the team and his guys (Ellis and Xanders) can pack the **** up and get out.

Dedhed
09-25-2011, 10:04 PM
Denver is 3-5 plays away from being 3-0.
And in every single one of those, Orton has failed.

montrose
09-25-2011, 10:07 PM
Where are you getting the idea from that Beadles and Walton aren't improving? I'd like to know which plays that you are referring to.

Well, they're really not getting much of a push, hence the sub 3 yard YPC the last two weeks including 3 consecutive run stuffs today that probably lost the game. Also, just from watching each guy- they're dominated up front just as often as last year honestly. Walton needs double team help every play just to not let the play be blown up. The pass pro appears better, but teams arent really blitzing Denver anymore, no need to as the QB can have all day in the pocket and it makes no difference. Im sure if I was an OL coach grading out each in play I'd see some improvement but I'm not sure how anyone could feel comfortable with either guy as the LG or C of the future.

And keep in mind who drafted them, the same guy who drafted Decker, signed Lloyd and traded for Mays... Okay there was some sarcasm there, lol.

montrose
09-25-2011, 10:09 PM
We've already been through several "overhauls" the last few seasons, going back to the end of the Shanahan era when he was retooling the Broncos offense.

We're not going to get the proper overhaul until Pat Bowlen sells the team and his guys (Ellis and Xanders) can pack the **** up and get out.

SoCal knows more about this than me, but I believe Bowlen cannot sell the team unless its back to Kaiser.

Popps
09-25-2011, 10:22 PM
Well, they're really not getting much of a push, hence the sub 3 yard YPC the last two weeks including 3 consecutive run stuffs today that probably lost the game. Also, just from watching each guy- they're dominated up front just as often as last year honestly. Walton needs double team help every play just to not let the play be blown up. The pass pro appears better, but teams arent really blitzing Denver anymore, no need to as the QB can have all day in the pocket and it makes no difference. Im sure if I was an OL coach grading out each in play I'd see some improvement but I'm not sure how anyone could feel comfortable with either guy as the LG or C of the future.

And keep in mind who drafted them, the same guy who drafted Decker, signed Lloyd and traded for Mays... Okay there was some sarcasm there, lol.

Montrose,

Why do you think we abandoned the deep throw today? I was watching the game with my little one around, so I couldn't rewind and look at coverages, etc. Was Lloyd not 100%? Seems like we just never tried to stretch the field.
Orton/Lloyd have a good history of deep throws, and it's been part of the regular game plan. But, it wasn't today.

Agree on the line play. Interior OL is the biggest issue for this team right now, imo. (Regardless of who plays QB.)

I say this all the time, but to be a winning team... you have to be able to run when teams know you're going to run. (See the 4th down goal line play today.) We simply have no chance of winning those battles with our interior line. It's the reason you see so many goofy play calls from within the 5 yard line from us.

I wills say, McG helps in that area... but he can't do it by himself.

I think missing Kno hurts this team more than some think, too. He adds a dimension that McG doesn't.

I will say, despite the low yardage output... I did like the fact that we kept trying to run the ball. I think it helped keep us in the game and kept the pace of the game in our favor.

24champ
09-25-2011, 10:23 PM
SoCal knows more about this than me, but I believe Bowlen cannot sell the team unless its back to Kaiser.

I always thought Kaiser has the right to first purchase, and if he can't come up with the money then it goes through the other bidders.

Point is, as long as Bowlen is in charge. Ellis is going to continue to run this ship into the ground. Ellis has had too much power since Shanny got fired and Xanders is not a good GM. We need to rebuild the entire foundation of this franchise, no more scapegoating coordinators and coaches. Time for some new management.

hambone13
09-25-2011, 10:28 PM
lol! I just envision you weeping as you post this, maybe drooling and screaming, too.

I liked some of what McDaniels did and believe in giving a coach time to implement his system. McD's didn't work out, and he ran himself out of town.

Fox has been here for exactly 3 games. Sorry, I'm not going to wet myself like you goof-balls around here over it.

I was Shanahan's biggest defender around here for years. But, when it was time for him to go, I was one of the first to recognize it. I took that stance and was in the minority, as you may imagine.

The coach isn't always right. But you mouth-breathing message board guys aren't, either.

Fox is going to be here a while. You can be mad at me about it it if makes you feel better. But, he's going to get a fair chance to do his job.

By the way, I have no idea who you are... and I'm not sure why you seem to think you know so much about me. Kind of creepy.

You can envision me how you will but anyone who's been around The Mane for any length of time knows what I'm talking about. I saw your transition out of Shanny and it was appropriate but you were also one of the worst McD apologists out there, with no proof and multiple postings similar to the idea of, "The more I listen to this guy, the more I like him." He was an idiot from the beginning and has since proven to be the idiot who helped this team be as sup-par as it is now. Reference all the "creepiness" you want but you're reputation is known far and wide. I'm not calling for Fox's head, I agree there has been some semblance of improvement on defense since his arrival but he and the FO have not handled the QB or critical position roles such as DT any better than McD did. It's discouraging. I'm looking forward to having a winning feeling from fan-base to FO again. That is not what is being portrayed at the moment IMO. We flat out suck. This game was no stop gap to that perception as much as you like to throw out insignificant optimism. This game was winnable and the QB and HC position were paramount to the loss IMO.

Popps
09-25-2011, 10:32 PM
I always thought Kaiser has the right to first purchase, and if he can't come up with the money then it goes through the other bidders.

Point is, as long as Bowlen is in charge. Ellis is going to continue to run this ship into the ground. Ellis has had too much power since Shanny got fired and Xanders is not a good GM. We need to rebuild the entire foundation of this franchise, no more scapegoating coordinators and coaches. Time for some new management.

Champ, just curious...

From the end of the McDaniels tenure... what major (or minor) things would you have done differently from a personnel/strategy standpoint? In other words, a few games into the season... to be this sure we need a total overhaul, what would you think would have helped?

Too passive in free agency?

Don't like the QB situation?

In particular, what realistic things would you have changed?

OABB
09-25-2011, 10:34 PM
Well, they're really not getting much of a push, hence the sub 3 yard YPC the last two weeks including 3 consecutive run stuffs today that probably lost the game. Also, just from watching each guy- they're dominated up front just as often as last year honestly. Walton needs double team help every play just to not let the play be blown up. The pass pro appears better, but teams arent really blitzing Denver anymore, no need to as the QB can have all day in the pocket and it makes no difference. Im sure if I was an OL coach grading out each in play I'd see some improvement but I'm not sure how anyone could feel comfortable with either guy as the LG or C of the future.

And keep in mind who drafted them, the same guy who drafted Decker, signed Lloyd and traded for Mays... Okay there was some sarcasm there, lol.

its knowshons fault. our run blocking is fine. bust.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:35 PM
Well, they're really not getting much of a push, hence the sub 3 yard YPC the last two weeks including 3 consecutive run stuffs today that probably lost the game. Also, just from watching each guy- they're dominated up front just as often as last year honestly. Walton needs double team help every play just to not let the play be blown up. The pass pro appears better, but teams arent really blitzing Denver anymore, no need to as the QB can have all day in the pocket and it makes no difference. Im sure if I was an OL coach grading out each in play I'd see some improvement but I'm not sure how anyone could feel comfortable with either guy as the LG or C of the future.

IMO, you're being overly harsh. I went back and literally re-watched every play of the Bengals game over this week. I was fully expecting to excoriate both Beadles and Walton, but I was pleasantly surprised. Neither of them are maulers, but they both had some good moments. There was only one really poor play between them, and it was on a play where Beadles completely goofed his assignment from a shotgun formation.

The biggest problem I saw with the OL is that they were out of synch. Franklin, Beadles, and Walton occasionally got lost in their responsiblities. They looked like they didn't have the natural flow of a veteran offensive line. I tempered my criticism with them there because these are still young players who didn't have an offseason to prepare for the new coaches scheme.

But their pass blocking has improved dramatically. Both Beadles and Walton are not only competent, but capable pass blockers. That's probably why McDoof wanted them in the first place.

Beadles actually had some nice run blocking plays in the Bengals game, and Walton was consistently average in run blocking. That in itself is a massive improvement for JD, as he was a weak link in pass blocking last year.

I'll have to go back and look at the Titans game too, but these guys have consistently improved over the threee games this season and I feel confident that by the end of the year, Franklin, Beadles, and Walton will start finding success as contributors to the 5-man unit.

There is reason to be encouraged and hopeful with them, IMO. At this point I see those positions as stable and improving.


And keep in mind who drafted them, the same guy who drafted Decker, signed Lloyd and traded for Mays... Okay there was some sarcasm there, lol.

Oh, I dont disagree. That guy had what...39 players on his draft board? Yikes!

He also traded a potential top 10-15 pick for Alphonso Smith. If there was a way to mismanage a football team, McDoof somehow found a way to mismanage it more flagrantly than most before him. He's the Matt Millen of coaches.

SoCalBronco
09-25-2011, 10:39 PM
I always thought Kaiser has the right to first purchase, and if he can't come up with the money then it goes through the other bidders.

Point is, as long as Bowlen is in charge. Ellis is going to continue to run this ship into the ground. Ellis has had too much power since Shanny got fired and Xanders is not a good GM. We need to rebuild the entire foundation of this franchise, no more scapegoating coordinators and coaches. Time for some new management.

Kaiser does have a right of first refusal. Problem is....I think he could probably put together a group of investors, relatively easily. At least on the surface, the Broncos are a very intriguing investment oppurtunity for any investor. They are in the Top 10 in revenues, they are low in debt and continually sell out. Obviously, they're currently run poorly and as a result, it appears for some reason, despite these positive factors it seems they may rank lower than they should in operating income. I'm sure more sophisticated businessmen would believe they could turn around the bottom line considering the strong fundamental aspects in place regarding revenue levels and debt.

It will be very difficult for us to get a good owner because of the Kaiser situation. At the very least, Kaiser would probably insist on a large cash payment in exchange for waiving his rights to muck up the process. In fact, I suspect if Bowlen made him such an offer, he'd probably reject it because he would smell the blood in the water (i.e. that Bowlen's having problems and wants to sell and as a result he could see his opening back into the NFL).

This is a situation without an obvious solution.

Hamrob
09-25-2011, 10:39 PM
I agree with this. There also seems to be people who are bigger Shanahan fans than Bronco fans.Kaylore...let's see how the next 2 games go before we get too caught up with our improvement.

To this point in the season, I think we have played tough, with a lot of young guys stepping up. That's encouraging for the future.

Two things that have to change:

1. Kyle Orton...he maybe a vet, but he is too damn ordinary to carry us anywhere.

2. Whether it's Orton, Quinn or Tebow....McCoy needs to stretch the field more on offense. I understand Fox is a run, run, run, punt coach...but, this offense takes zero chances. We were much better in this area last year.

3. Pass rush. Our run defense has improved some...but, we still aren't getting to the QB enough and they are carving us up.

Vegas_Bronco
09-25-2011, 10:39 PM
Ahhh....now that all the fingers have been pointed at the ORG, the personal attacks on each other begin...

Omane is getting too pre-pubescent after a loss...where is the damn nursery in here?

montrose
09-25-2011, 10:41 PM
Montrose,

Why do you think we abandoned the deep throw today? I was watching the game with my little one around, so I couldn't rewind and look at coverages, etc. Was Lloyd not 100%? Seems like we just never tried to stretch the field.
Orton/Lloyd have a good history of deep throws, and it's been part of the regular game plan. But, it wasn't today.

Well not to continue the Orton bashing, but... his tendency to lock onto his #1 progression is just killing this team right now. I cant say I saw much Lloyd on camera down the field but it was fairly obvious that Decker was the 1st look most of the day, on shorter routes.

Agree on the line play. Interior OL is the biggest issue for this team right now, imo. (Regardless of who plays QB.)

Have to disagree friend, while improved play at the spots would be massive (especially considering the type of style Fox wants to play), nothing would improve this team more than better play from the QB position. The defense's success or struggles from the last 3 years can be almost directly related to time of possession, furthermore a more athletic QB (or a guy with the slightest bit of athleticism) would force defenses to respect the backside more and open up more running lanes. I'm not even getting into to emotional lift that a team gets from having a QB that inspires his teammates and gives belief the team is never out of a game (you really think anyone on that team thout they could win after Tennessee took the lead)?

Again, improved play at the LG and C spots would do wonders but at the end of the day its a QB driven league and when you have a player who has a knack for becoming a shell of himself when the game is on the line- your in trouble. To be clear, I'm not asking Orton to be Manning, Brady or even Rivers. If Orton in the last minutes of a close game could be the same Orton that plays earlier the game, that alone could be a major improvement- not even taking into accouny my other earlier stated points.

I absolutly agree with your points on the importance of a running game, but I still think in today's NFL you need damn-near premiere QB level to be a double digit win team and at a minimum you need a QB who plays at his peak ability (not his least) when the game is on the line.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:44 PM
. Agree on the line play. Interior OL is the biggest issue for this team right now, imo. (Regardless of who plays QB.)

Again, I'd like to hear specifics on how this is the case. Yes, they did fail to push the ball through on the goal line, but sometimes that happens even to veteran O-lines.

McGahee ran for 101 yards last week, and the Broncos did an awful lot of running off of the left interior line. Thats Walton, Beadles, and Clady.

I'm just curious as to why you would make that kind of statement in terms of some specific plays that consistently reveal the trend you are referring to that point to a broader general issue.

After watching every play of the Bengals game last week, I saw no such issue. I saw young players out of synch and unsure of their assignments, not players who were incapable of executing plays. Thats a situation perfectly capable of being resolved over time.

What struck me as more of a problem is that McGahee doesn't have the acceleration to hit the second level against NFL speed...which probably explains why the staff wants Moreno in there more often than not.

The QB situation on the other hand...that is what it is at this point. The same pattern of coming up short in critical moments and making critical turnovers has revealed itself to be a general theme that repeats itself like clockwork. Given that this is the most important position on the field, I would say that this is a bigger problem. And given that there are two back-ups who have had moments of brilliance, I would say that this is the one that is more potentially resolved by a personnel change.

OABB
09-25-2011, 10:46 PM
Well not to continue the Orton bashing, but... his tendency to lock onto his #1 progression is just killing this team right now. I cant say I saw much Lloyd on camera down the field but it was fairly obvious that Decker was the 1st look most of the day, on shorter routes.



Have to disagree friend, while improved play at the spots would be massive (especially considering the type of style Fox wants to play), nothing would improve this team more than better play from the QB position. The defense's success or struggles from the last 3 years can be almost directly related to time of possession, furthermore a more athletic QB (or a guy with the slightest bit of athleticism) would force defenses to respect the backside more and open up more running lanes. I'm not even getting into to emotional lift that a team gets from having a QB that inspires his teammates and gives belief the team is never out of a game (you really think anyone on that team thout they could win after Tennessee took the lead)?

Again, improved play at the LG and C spots would do wonders but at the end of the day its a QB driven league and when you have a player who has a knack for becoming a shell of himself when the game is on the line- your in trouble. To be clear, I'm not asking Orton to be Manning, Brady or even Rivers. If Orton in the last minutes of a close game could be the same Orton that plays earlier the game, that alone could be a major improvement- not even taking into accouny my other earlier stated points.

I absolutly agree with your points on the importance of a running game, but I still think in today's NFL you need damn-near premiere QB level to be a double digit win team and at a minimum you need a QB who plays at his peak ability (not his least) when the game is on the line.


couldnt agree more. great post. even if its not tebow, this team needs a leader that steps up when the game is on the line...

havent had that in a decade

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 10:49 PM
Again,

The QB situation on the other hand...that is what it is at this point. The same pattern of coming up short in critical moments and making critical turnovers has revealed itself to be a general theme that repeats itself like clockwork.

Its torture every week. Only bearable because of Von Miller.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:54 PM
couldnt agree more. great post. even if its not tebow, this team needs a leader that steps up when the game is on the line...

havent had that in a decade

Tebow against Houston is already a bit of tangible evidence tested in a real world situation with less-than-prime circumstances that shows us that Tebow is capable of that in some capacity in the NFL.

I feel as confident with the idea that Tebow will lead an offense that averages 20ppg as much as I feel confident that Kyle is going to come up short more often than not when it matters and in critical situations.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 10:58 PM
Its torture every week. Only bearable because of Von Miller.

Honestly, I just expect it to end in a flaming heap like it did today because it has become so commonplace. Orton just cant be the guy who makes the play. As much as I want him to be able to carry the team down the field and make that play that wins the game, he just isn't the kind of player who can do that regularly. I would expect it maybe once every 7-8 opportunities. That's the rate that LeBron James hit game winners last season. That kind of conversion rate led to a rightful development of the perspective among observers that James performs below standard in those situations.

montrose
09-25-2011, 10:58 PM
But their pass blocking has improved dramatically. Both Beadles and Walton are not only competent, but capable pass blockers. That's probably why McDoof wanted them in the first place.

This is my point though, that's not what Fox wants. He wants run blockers, maulers (see Franklin, Deebo). I have no confidence these will ever be guys that can walk up to the Baltimore Ravens on 4th and 1, tell them were running the ball up the middle... and do it.

That's John Fox football.

OABB
09-25-2011, 11:00 PM
Tebow against Houston is already a bit of tangible evidence tested in a real world situation with less-than-prime circumstances that shows us that Tebow is capable of that in some capacity in the NFL.

I feel as confident with the idea that Tebow will lead an offense that averages 20ppg as much as I feel confident that Kyle is going to come up short more often than not when it matters and in critical situations.

I have no doubt we would be 3-0 if Tebow had started. certainly 2-1. thats the bummer. people think the pining for tebow is just another case of a backup being more popular than the starter because fans are idiots....

but in this case there is supporting evidence and orton is a munson. a real life munson.

we are literally playing the wrong guy and many know it.


its tough because its true this time.

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 11:02 PM
I wish I wasnt a Bronco fan right now. I am and always will be, but wish I wasnt, I actually cant stand watching our offense right now.

Ex. I strong right, Decker motions to crack, toss right. Loss of 3.

Thats the most juvenile sorry ass pop warner bs play ever, and this clown tells us ”its going to be most sophisticate d running game”

Who the hell does he think we are?

Wow the Y is stutterstepping to the Te, wonder whats coming.

Kcul rof kcul

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 11:07 PM
This is my point though, that's not what Fox wants. He wants run blockers, maulers (see Franklin, Deebo). I have no confidence these will ever be guys that can walk up to the Baltimore Ravens on 4th and 1, tell them were running the ball up the middle... and do it.

That's John Fox football.

Against the Bengals, we did convert a critical third and short behind Walton, who not only put the NT on the ground, but even squirted through to the second level and put a block on a linebacker.

I'm telling ya...take a closer look at these guys next time you get the chance. Its not as bad as it seems. These two are the reason why pass pro has become a strength and we are running the ball better than we did last season.

This is despite the fact that they are still out of synch and unsure about their assignments on occasion. I think that this time next season, that these guys will really have put it all together. You put a good back in there with some burst and vision and we'll have a run game.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 11:14 PM
I have no doubt we would be 3-0 if Tebow had started. certainly 2-1. thats the bummer. people think the pining for tebow is just another case of a backup being more popular than the starter because fans are idiots....

but in this case there is supporting evidence and orton is a munson. a real life munson.

we are literally playing the wrong guy and many know it.

its tough because its true this time.

Tebow may have to work through issues with timing at QB (just like youngsters on the line are working through timing issues, as well as youngsters in the secondary and in the defensive front seven), but the big play ability of the offense immediately increases. Tebow is also a threat for big plays on the ground.

He would improve the run game. I have no doubts about that. He might take carries away from Moreno and McGahee, but does anyone really care?

Tebow deserves an opportunity to develop his own timing with the offense. Not the timing that they see in Orton, but Tebow's own flow with all of the benefits that it brings in both phases of the game.

Bootlegs, pitch-outs, draws from shotgun, deep outs, an effective screen game, etc, etc. Tebow brings alot of tactical benefits.

24champ
09-25-2011, 11:16 PM
Champ, just curious...

From the end of the McDaniels tenure... what major (or minor) things would you have done differently from a personnel/strategy standpoint? In other words, a few games into the season... to be this sure we need a total overhaul, what would you think would have helped?

Too passive in free agency?

Don't like the QB situation?

In particular, what realistic things would you have changed?

I would be close to cleaning house, lot of people would lose jobs from Greek all the way up to Ellis. Right now it's not a cohesive organization, it's been very dysfunctional since Shanahan has left. Bowlen is mostly responsible for that since he likes to keep certain people around because he likes them personally.

Next thing I would do is bring in some smart NFL consultants and tell them to find me the best talent evaluator in the NFL right now. In my mind that would be Grigson or DeCosta. This team severely lacks talent and depth and we need to get all the talent we can find through the draft and FA. Hire one of those guys and then begin the search for the head coaching job. I don't think I would have brought in John Fox for an interview, based on his poor record lately in Carolina.

I also would NOT have hired Elway for any front office executive position based on the fact he has zero experience in front offices. The NFL is a very cutthroat business, and you need the best Front Office staff to compete for talent out there.

The Broncos either weren't serious about changing or they couldn't afford to do it. We did a real bang up job on FA and with the Orton situation. We were going back and forth on whether not we were going to trade him. Was Tebow their guy? At any rate, it was amateur hour at the FO this offseason.

SoCalBronco
09-25-2011, 11:19 PM
I would be close to cleaning house, lot of people would lose jobs from Greek all the way up to Ellis. Right now it's not a cohesive organization, it's been very dysfunctional since Shanahan has left. Bowlen is mostly responsible for that since he likes to keep certain people around because he likes them personally.

Next thing I would do is bring in some smart NFL consultants and tell them to find me the best talent evaluator in the NFL right now. In my mind that would be Grigson or DeCosta. This team severely lacks talent and depth and we need to get all the talent we can find through the draft and FA. Hire one of those guys and then begin the search for the head coaching job. I don't think I would have brought in John Fox for an interview, based on his poor record lately in Carolina.

I also would NOT have hired Elway for any front office executive position based on the fact he has zero experience in front offices. The NFL is a very cutthroat business, and you need the best Front Office staff to compete for talent out there.

The Broncos either weren't serious about changing or they couldn't afford to do it. We did a real bang up job on FA and with the Orton situation. We were going back and forth on whether not we were going to trade him. Was Tebow their guy? At any rate, it was amateur hour at the FO this offseason.

Agreed 100% on every point.

vonqkilla
09-25-2011, 11:25 PM
Pro personnel has been suspect for years. But the commitment to the draft is step one.

Really wish fairley was our dt along with him von.

Popps
09-25-2011, 11:37 PM
Well not to continue the Orton bashing, but... his tendency to lock onto his #1 progression is just killing this team right now. I cant say I saw much Lloyd on camera down the field but it was fairly obvious that Decker was the 1st look most of the day, on shorter routes.



Members of the media and Fox said they were rolling a safety to Lloyd all day, and that it appeared the idea was to take him out of the game plan. (Worked.)
So, perhaps Orton was not looking his way for a reason. I knew he threw to the TE's quite a few times today. I agree with a LOT of the criticism on Orton. Much of it is merited. But, the notion of him not going through reads is one I've always found way off-base. Today, I can't say specifically. Like I said, I was (happily) distracted today.)


Have to disagree friend, while improved play at the spots would be massive...
......I still think in today's NFL you need damn-near premiere QB level to be a double digit win team and at a minimum you need a QB who plays at his peak ability (not his least) when the game is on the line.

I wouldn't discount all of that, and obviously... a huge boost at the QB spot goes a long way. I'm speaking of realistic, shorter term, I guess. Tebow and Orton both come with drawbacks, imo. But, I've also not been highly vocal either way. I like Tebow. I'd be fine with giving him a shot. I just think the whole issue is overplayed. I think both QBs could be effective for us with a better running game. (Yes, understanding that a QB helps open up things in that area.)

I still believe we need big upgrades on the interior OL. But, I hope I'm wrong... and that these guys pan out.

24champ
09-25-2011, 11:37 PM
Kaiser does have a right of first refusal. Problem is....I think he could probably put together a group of investors, relatively easily. At least on the surface, the Broncos are a very intriguing investment oppurtunity for any investor. They are in the Top 10 in revenues, they are low in debt and continually sell out. Obviously, they're currently run poorly and as a result, it appears for some reason, despite these positive factors it seems they may rank lower than they should in operating income. I'm sure more sophisticated businessmen would believe they could turn around the bottom line considering the strong fundamental aspects in place regarding revenue levels and debt.

It will be very difficult for us to get a good owner because of the Kaiser situation. At the very least, Kaiser would probably insist on a large cash payment in exchange for waiving his rights to muck up the process. In fact, I suspect if Bowlen made him such an offer, he'd probably reject it because he would smell the blood in the water (i.e. that Bowlen's having problems and wants to sell and as a result he could see his opening back into the NFL).

This is a situation without an obvious solution.

What do you consider a large cash payment for Kaiser? 50 million?

I think it can be done if Bowlen wants to sell and gets a generous offer for the franchise.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 11:40 PM
I still believe we need big upgrades on the interior OL. But, I hope I'm wrong... and that these guys pan out.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain this idea further with some specific examples that illustrate trends.

Popps
09-25-2011, 11:40 PM
@24Champ,

Fair enough, but I meant more from a player personnel and strategy standpoint. Meaning, obviously we see that you don't support this admin. But, to give them the fairness of critique, I meant... what would you have done differently to this point?

But, your points are well-taken. Elway is a risk. I think Fox is a fairly safe choice, though. We just had a boom or bust coach. People hated it. Bowlen and Co. went out and got a guy to calm things down.

Oddly, the fans are still in chaos. Why? Because they want the old coach's QB to play.

Popps
09-25-2011, 11:42 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to explain this idea further with some specific examples that illustrate trends.

Short of breaking down film on here.. which I don't have time to do, I can only see that the running lanes seem few and far between and there doesn't seem to be much push on the inside.

If you're seeing something different, I hope you're right... and feel free to elaborate as to why.

schaaf
09-25-2011, 11:43 PM
I was very disappointed with how slow Mcgahee would hit the line of scrimmage... Even on the goal line he could have scored with a full head of steam, dude was stopping all day

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 11:43 PM
. Oddly, the fans are still in chaos. Why? Because they want the old coach's QB to play.

I think it has more to do with the player's qualities and what they would do to expand the offense, and has very little if nothing to do with which player would theoretically belong to which coach.

epicSocialism4tw
09-25-2011, 11:48 PM
Short of breaking down film on here.. which I don't have time to do, I can only see that the running lanes seem few and far between and there doesn't seem to be much push on the inside.

If you're seeing something different, I hope you're right... and feel free to elaborate as to why.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=100217

Man, I feel as though I have been fighting this issue all day.

There are mitigating factors with this young offensive line just like there are mitigating factors at other positions. But it has been clear that this line has improved dramatically since week one. That improvement is directly attributable to the improvement of Beadles and Walton over that same period of time. Franklin is getting better too.

I'd say one of the mitigating factors with the appearance of poor run blocking is the fact that we don't really have a decent RB on the roster. The only big play threat is Lance Ball, and he's just not very good. Another mitigating factor is the fact that the passing game hasn't established itself as something that can punish a defense loading up in the box. The team never runs play action at all.

broncocalijohn
09-25-2011, 11:49 PM
Agreed 100% on every point.

So I guess it wasnt dysfunctional when Shanny couldnt agree on a DC to keep around longer than a season? Funny how 3 of you posters forget that Shanahan wasn't some coach that did everything right and got canned for no reason.

SoCalBronco
09-25-2011, 11:56 PM
So I guess it wasnt dysfunctional when Shanny couldnt agree on a DC to keep around longer than a season? Funny how 3 of you posters forget that Shanahan wasn't some coach that did everything right and got canned for no reason.

No one has ever contended that he did everything right or was without flaws. As with many other coaches, Shanny was a man of multiple flaws. Certainly among those flaws was the tendency for a quick trigger finger on DCs. However,it was our position that his strengths greatly exceeded his flaws. By the end of his tenure, he had put together a very, very impressive array of young offensive talent and was committed to using almost the entire 2009 draft to help the defense, which was obviously in disrepair. Considering we had the worst defense is memory and still finished 8-8, the future signs were encouraging.

Bowlen apparently felt he could do better. Well, guess what? He couldn't. Not only has he failed to do better, he's plunged the organization into a hellish morass that hasn't been seen in decades. People should be careful in what they ask for....sometimes you get it.

24champ
09-25-2011, 11:58 PM
@24Champ,

Fair enough, but I meant more from a player personnel and strategy standpoint. Meaning, obviously we see that you don't support this admin. But, to give them the fairness of critique, I meant... what would you have done differently to this point?


I see, well...

I would have jettisoned Orton for peanuts because the trade off would be saving money that I can use in FA to acquire FA's to add more depth to the team. Not just going after DL like Mebane, which is the popular sentiment around here but actually adding some depth to the team.

But that is all moot now, Orton's value has diminished, so we won't get jack squat for him AND Pat will back up the brinks truck for him. Poor management.

But, your points are well-taken. Elway is a risk. I think Fox is a fairly safe choice, though. We just had a boom or bust coach. People hated it. Bowlen and Co. went out and got a guy to calm things down.


I don't know about safe choice, the guy came off a worse season than McDaniels had in Denver. That's saying something. We got a lot of season left, so we'll see...

Oddly, the fans are still in chaos. Why? Because they want the old coach's QB to play.

Fans are in chaos because the FO is sending out mixed messages to the fans.

t-diddy
09-25-2011, 11:58 PM
Oddly, the fans are still in chaos. Why? Because they want the old coach's QB to play.
I would say that the chaos largely stems from the fact that we are still playing the old coach's QB (Orton).

Not to oversimplify, but many of the fans got a taste of the old days with the three games that Tebow started last year... From an excitement standpoint i mean. I really think that much of the fanbase had an expectation that we were going to see exciting football this year from the quarterback position. Boring/poor play from the quarterback = fan chaos/mutiny. Pretty standard in a QB driven league IMO.

Popps
09-26-2011, 12:13 AM
Oh good god. Forget I ****ing said anything. Can we please not **** all over this thread?

My bad, won't ever do it again. Tebow Is Jesus. Forget I spoke his name.

Popps
09-26-2011, 12:17 AM
@champ

Agree with mixed messages, but the average fan is about the QB situation. Not much else.

I also wonder id Mebane was worth what he got. We got Bunkley for peanuts. He's looked good. Warren was a pricy gamble though.

epicSocialism4tw
09-26-2011, 12:23 AM
Oh good god. Forget I ****ing said anything. Can we please not **** all over this thread?

My bad, won't ever do it again. Tebow Is Jesus. Forget I spoke his name.

Well, that's childish enough.

You made a claim, got reasoned responses, and that's what you give back?

epicSocialism4tw
09-26-2011, 12:25 AM
@champ

Agree with mixed messages, but the average fan is about the QB situation. Not much else.

I also wonder id Mebane was worth what he got. We got Bunkley for peanuts. He's looked good. Warren was a pricy gamble though.

Mebane didn't get very much and he has a reputation as a player who can consistently clog the middle on running plays.

epicSocialism4tw
09-26-2011, 12:30 AM
Fans are in chaos because the FO is sending out mixed messages to the fans.

This is true.

Some players make the starting roster because they "give the team the best chance to win", while the team doesn't spend money on depth to give the team the best chance to win, while the team doesnt spend money on a higher level of player to ensure that the team has a better chance to win...

So the team comes out of the gate looking like a poor team who is rebuilding over several years and saving money in the mean time.

So the fans wonder "Why isn't the exciting young QB at least getting out there to entertain us" and the team responds with spite and obnoxious anti-fan behavior like the starting QB saying things about how he doesn't play for the fans.

The Broncos have put forth contradictory messages like a schizophrenic arguing with himself.

t-diddy
09-26-2011, 12:36 AM
Oh good god. Forget I ****ing said anything. Can we please not **** all over this thread?

My bad, won't ever do it again. Tebow Is Jesus. Forget I spoke his name.

Bipolar much? I wasn't trying to **** on the thread, just responding to what you deemed as the source of the fan chaos.

Popps
09-26-2011, 12:40 AM
It was a casual statement about the irony of the angry masses hating the current coach because he won't play the QB the last hated coach drafted to be his guy. It wasn't meant to be a Tebow siren. We get it. You like him. I do too. Enough already.

epicSocialism4tw
09-26-2011, 12:41 AM
It was a casual statement about the irony of the angry masses hating the current coach because he won't play the QB the last hated coach drafted to be his guy. It wasn't meant to be a Tebow siren. We get it. You like him. I do too. Enough already.

No sense in frustrating yourself over something that is out of your control.

Popps
09-26-2011, 12:43 AM
@ESFTW

We played the run very well today and last week. McFadden gashed us, which it appears will happen all season. If Warren and Thomas were healthy, we'd have no issue at DT it appears. At least no bigger issue than we have in other areas.

Popps
09-26-2011, 12:44 AM
No sense in frustrating yourself over something that is out of your control.

Just trying to keep at least one thread here worth reading. There have been some good posts. No need for TebowJack no. 15,237.

t-diddy
09-26-2011, 12:57 AM
It was a casual statement about the irony of the angry masses hating the current coach because he won't play the QB the last hated coach drafted to be his guy. It wasn't meant to be a Tebow siren. We get it. You like him. I do too. Enough already.

Whatever man... i'm not the guy that thinks Tebow is the answer to everything. Was referring more to the broader problem that the offense is bordering on unwatchable. I'll bow out now and let you get back to dictating the discussion.

epicSocialism4tw
09-26-2011, 12:58 AM
@ESFTW

We played the run very well today and last week. McFadden gashed us, which it appears will happen all season. If Warren and Thomas were healthy, we'd have no issue at DT it appears. At least no bigger issue than we have in other areas.

A couple of things are really helping us with the run...Dawkins plays as almost a third linebacker while Von plays essentially at end, and Robert Ayers has discovered how to set an edge. I think that Bunkley also deserves credit.

But along with Bunkley, the team needs two other high level interior players. Elite run defenses employ elite interior players.

I really wish that Warren was capable because he was an excellent player when he was healthy. But the team can't count on him. He's just a superfluous piece that if he works out, then awesome...but the Broncos need to plan on him being unavailable.

Look at Detroit. They have arguably the best young player in the NFL in Suh. The guy is already a complete monster who has the inside track on being the best DT in generations. But they added Suh to Corey Williams, a top free agent they had previously signed. They also had Shaun Rogers. So then they added yet another powerhouse first round talent in Nick Fairley. So they can rotate a fresh blue-chip player on every down. On 3rd and long, they have three fantastic pass-rushing DT's to unleash.

You just have to keep adding talent at that position because you can never have enough (though detroit is certainly pushing that idea!).

The traditionally great run defenses all do this....Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Green Bay, etc.

epicSocialism4tw
09-26-2011, 01:00 AM
Just trying to keep at least one thread here worth reading. There have been some good posts. No need for TebowJack no. 15,237.

I don't blame you. That's why in the game rewind thread I did, I focused on issues that nobody had really explored with any depth here...like the offensive line.

The Tebow issue will come up though, because many people were impressed by his performances last year and see him as a player who can expand the offense. Just let it fly on by and keep bringing up other subjects. People will jump in.

eddie mac
09-26-2011, 01:20 AM
We just played against the all-pro Quarterbacks, Campbell, Dalton and Hasselhoff. I dont see much of any improvement at all on the defensive side of the ball. That unit still couldn't get it done when it mattered. The offense is as weak as it was last year, no optimism at all on my side.

Drek
09-26-2011, 01:27 AM
@champ

Agree with mixed messages, but the average fan is about the QB situation. Not much else.

I also wonder id Mebane was worth what he got. We got Bunkley for peanuts. He's looked good. Warren was a pricy gamble though.

Mebane got about $1M a year more than Warren and his contract covers 26-31, not 31-32 like we signed Warren for.

You sign a guy who's over 300 pounds and over 30 years old and you're buying a big risk. You do that with a guy coming off a lost season who reportedly failed his physical in New England and you're just asking for a problem.

Mebane isn't an elite DT. But he didn't get elite DT money. He got solid starter money, which he is. Better yet, he's a young solid starter who has been free of injuries. He's exactly what we needed to stabilize the middle of this defense. Barry Cofield is 27, he could have filled this role as well and signed for $6M a year. Also far from real "elite" DT money.

What we did get away with Warren though is committing very little guaranteed money. Which makes sense because we're a cash poor team who will likely bail out on Warren before getting anything close to value out of him.

Right now Justin Bannan would be a better starting DT than anyone on our team. We cut him to save money after already paying his signing bonuses and the like.

This organization is more concerned with cash flow than fielding a competitive team right now. Until that changes we're praying for miracles.

Durango
09-26-2011, 01:58 AM
I agree in large part with all the criticism aimed ay Kyle Orton, even though, and just my very humble opinion here, he takes more flak than he deserves.

He is what he is; a journeyman QB with enough skills to keep you in games, and enough flaws to make crucial mistakes that cost you games.

Considering some of our crucial defensive pieces were out of this game, I though the defense on whole played damn well, and going for the TD on the 4th down was exactly the right thing to do..again, in my humble opinion.

Even so, I just feel better about this team, and the coach, and the management. The criticism of the higher ups is merited. There is something very odd about Ellis' seeming back room control over operations, but the idea that Bowlen just likes the guy personally could be the only explanation after that McDaniels debacle.

Mile High Mojoe
09-26-2011, 02:27 AM
The Broncos O is like a glacier, a yawning festival, a bad soap opera with crappy actors. The D did shut down Johnson but couldn't make a stop in the 4th Q. Getting better is winning games not losing them. Orton will never get better, the D will but Orton never.

Rock Chalk
09-26-2011, 07:24 AM
We look better in ways. On D we are faster and smarter.
Fox is just so conservative sometimes but that's what we hired him for . Stability.
But Orton on 3rd down and in "The Red Zone" is so
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6333/deerinheadlights.jpg

Normally yes.

But come on, Orton was perfectly acceptable on 3rd down and in the red zone yesterday. Over 50%. As a passer he scored TDs on 2 of 2 opportunities.

The one red zone we failed on? THey didnt let Orton throw. The two Red Zone possessions we succeeded on? Orton passed for TDs against a team that had not given up a red zone touchdown against Jacksonville or Baltimore.

Im not saying Orton was great, far from it, just saying that yesterday, Orton actually did good on the biggest knocks against him...3rd down conversions and red zone conversions.

Tombstone RJ
09-26-2011, 07:25 AM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

I remember my first beer...

Tombstone RJ
09-26-2011, 07:28 AM
the Broncos still managed to snatch defeat from the arms of victory...

Garcia Bronco
09-26-2011, 07:29 AM
Normally yes.

But come on, Orton was perfectly acceptable on 3rd down and in the red zone yesterday. Over 50%. As a passer he scored TDs on 2 of 2 opportunities.

The one red zone we failed on? THey didnt let Orton throw. The two Red Zone possessions we succeeded on? Orton passed for TDs against a team that had not given up a red zone touchdown against Jacksonville or Baltimore.

Im not saying Orton was great, far from it, just saying that yesterday, Orton actually did good on the biggest knocks against him...3rd down conversions and red zone conversions.

All true, but he's jinxed. What kills me is we had two linemen on that DT and he still got his hands up.

Tombstone RJ
09-26-2011, 07:31 AM
Orton is an inaccurate QB. I don't know how many times I have to remind people of this but he is nothing special when it comes to accuracy. I guarantee you Tebow with all his mechanical flaws is every damn bit as accurate as Orton...

BroncoBuff
09-26-2011, 07:32 AM
Mebane isn't an elite DT. But he didn't get elite DT money. He got solid starter money, which he is. Better yet, he's a young solid starter who has been free of injuries. He's exactly what we needed to stabilize the middle of this defense. Barry Cofield is 27, he could have filled this role as well and signed for $6M a year. Also far from real "elite" DT money.
Hasn't the DT market shot up pretty sharply the past five years? Haynesworth, Tommie Kelly, Kris Jenkins, Wilfork, Stroud. I know this: As long as Jimmy Kennedy and Amon Gordon are still employed, there must be a severe shortage of DTs.


This organization is more concerned with cash flow than fielding a competitive team right now. Until that changes we're praying for miracles.
But they did re-sign Champ ... the guy was halfway out the door and we wrote the big check. If you're right, it's pretty depressing ... Bowlen has never been about money.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 08:30 AM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.

My first thought reading this was "Wait a sec, you can't say 'we're getting better, we played pretty well, we're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team, BUT IT'S GOING TO TAKE YEARS TO FIX WHAT MCDANIELS DID . . . .'"

A lot of those guys were acquired by McD, Mr. McFan, :D including who I think will be the "decent QB" - Tebow. :wiggle:

J/K, McD did f a few things up, and of course, there were some good acquisitions this year to build the team up.

The team does need to start making some more plays on O and that includes Orton quite a bit. I saw maybe 6-7 or more pass plays that Orton did not execute well at all - poor trajectory over LB's, forcing throws when he still had time to scan for another second or two, throwing the ball away when he still had time to scan for another second or two.

Definitely need to upgrade at QB (hopefully that's Tebow), and maybe a little more diversity and creativity with the playcalling, and get another stud RB in here.

Denver should have won that game, but I agree it was a good effort on the road early in the season. Hopefully they can regroup.

Kaylore
09-26-2011, 08:35 AM
Cito, I think that's fair. There are some good pieces McDaniels left us: Decker, Tebow (potentially) and Dawkins being brought in were good decisions. They really don't outweigh the bad, though.

I agree that if not Tebow, we need more help at QB somewhere.

Drek
09-26-2011, 08:54 AM
Hasn't the DT market shot up pretty sharply the past five years? Haynesworth, Tommie Kelly, Kris Jenkins, Wilfork, Stroud. I know this: As long as Jimmy Kennedy and Amon Gordon are still employed, there must be a severe shortage of DTs.
Yes. Haynesworth was at one point the highest paid defensive player, with about three times the guaranteed money given to Mebane or Cofield, and over twice the annual salary.

Yet people on here act like giving a 26 year old DT a 5 year, $5M per deal or a 27 year old DT 4/$6M per is crazy money. Those same people tried playing the "I told you we'd do something!" card when we signed 31 year old Ty Warren, coming off a season spent on the IR and a failed physical with the Pats, to a 2 year, $4M per deal.

Signs it was a bad deal:

Warren on the wrong side of 30 and over 300 pounds.
Warren was hurt all last season and so is playing football with no OTAs and shortened camp after a full calendar year of inactivity.
We gave Warren more money than the Pats were actually going to pay him for 2011. Thats right, the Patriots would have paid him less than $4M (~$2.5M if I recall) to play in their 4-3 front and declined after reviewing him physically. We jumped on that and gave him over 50% more money.



But they did re-sign Champ ... the guy was halfway out the door and we wrote the big check. If you're right, it's pretty depressing ... Bowlen has never been about money.
You have to pay someone, there is still a salary floor in the NFL. We paid a fan favorite to make it look like we cared.

I don't think Bowlen is about the money, I just don't think he has any. We've spent the entire last decade constantly being a top 10 revenue team but a bottom 10 team in cash paid. For years we've always taken the organizational mindset of "why pay today what you can pay tomorrow?".

The people running the show since Shanahan left from a financial standpoint have been Ellis and Xanders. Both are bean counters with little to no real experience on the talent evaluation side of things. Our big additions to management this off-season was Elway, no experience on the talent evaluation side of things, and John Fox, who didn't even have final say on personnel in Carolina.

We've got no one who is a talent first guy in a position of power here. They've all been booted out the door.

Drek
09-26-2011, 08:59 AM
Cito, I think that's fair. There are some good pieces McDaniels left us: Decker, Tebow (potentially) and Dawkins being brought in were good decisions. They really don't outweigh the bad, though.

I agree that if not Tebow, we need more help at QB somewhere.

Ayers looks like our most complete lineman right now and he spent his first two seasons playing LB.

Bruton is spelling Dawkins, not this new regime's own 4th round pick.

Moreno is still our best option at HB when healthy.

Thomas' talent hasn't just disappeared.

Beadles and Walton showed consistent improvement with poor OL coaching last year. They've done the same the first three games of this year with a good OL coach but no real off-season to work on the new philosophy brought in.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if this team suddenly becomes very competitive next year when the OL has a full off-season under Magazu, Ayers gets a full off-season at DE, and we finally put a real dynamic element behind center. If that happens McDaniels would have provided us with as many as 8 starters in only two years.

McDaniels problem wasn't the player personnel choices, it was how he managed the team once they were brought in.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 09:06 AM
Cito, I think that's fair. There are some good pieces McDaniels left us: Decker, Tebow (potentially) and Dawkins being brought in were good decisions. They really don't outweigh the bad, though.

I agree that if not Tebow, we need more help at QB somewhere.

Well, there's a few more McAcquistions, and the bad moves were pretty much only Cutler and Hillis. And Jay hasn't exactly been tearing it up (55 TD's, 45 INT's with CHI).

I would love to see DThomas come back strong. Sure would be nice to see his size and hopefully speed on the field with Decker.

BroncoBuff
09-26-2011, 09:08 AM
The people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.
Excellent point ... (not sure what EFX is but) guys blaming John, calling him out, Fox too ... where is their sense of time, context, anything?

AgablameJohn is the worst, a real richard. I'm gonna start a feud with that guy, an old fashioned, neg-rep blaster feud. I'm frustrated as heck with this team, he's the perfect choice for me to vent that frustration. Bet a dollar he's a Republican.

jhns
09-26-2011, 09:10 AM
Well, there's a few more McAcquistions, and the bad moves were pretty much only Cutler and Hillis. And Jay hasn't exactly been tearing it up (55 TD's, 45 INT's with CHI).

I would love to see DThomas come back strong. Sure would be nice to see his size and hopefully speed on the field with Decker.

Did you just claim McDaniels only bad moves were Cutler and Hillis? Wtf? Then you claim they weren't that bad? So why did we end up with the worst team in franchise history?

You have to actually hate the Broncos in order to still defend McDaniels. Way to show your true colors raider fan.

Tombstone RJ
09-26-2011, 09:12 AM
Excellent point ... (not sure what EFX is but) guys blaming John, calling him out, Fox too ... where is their sense of time, context, anything?

AgablameJohn is the worst, a real richard. I'm gonna start a feud with that guy, an old fashioned, neg-rep blaster feud. I'm frustrated as heck with this team, he's the perfect choice for me to vent that frustration. Bet a dollar he's a Republican.

in this economy? really? can you afford it?

broncocalijohn
09-26-2011, 09:12 AM
I don't blame you. That's why in the game rewind thread I did, I focused on issues that nobody had really explored with any depth here...like the offensive line.

The Tebow issue will come up though, because many people were impressed by his performances last year and see him as a player who can expand the offense. Just let it fly on by and keep bringing up other subjects. People will jump in.

must have missed that part when you were bitching about Orton the series after he drove for a td. Sometimes you are part of the problem Popps is talking about.

bowtown
09-26-2011, 09:29 AM
Cito, I think that's fair. There are some good pieces McDaniels left us: Decker, Tebow (potentially) and Dawkins being brought in were good decisions. They really don't outweigh the bad, though.

I agree that if not Tebow, we need more help at QB somewhere.

Lonie Paxton can snap the **** out of the ball.

Drek
09-26-2011, 09:44 AM
Excellent point ... (not sure what EFX is but) guys blaming John, calling him out, Fox too ... where is their sense of time, context, anything?


EFX = Elway, Fox, Xanders.

And there are a handful of very valid sources of animosity towards anyone who has decision making power with the Broncos.

1. We were explicitly told that the DL, most notably DT, would be addressed. We then ignored it in the draft, ignored it the first week of FA when all the long term options signed up, and then traded for a 1st round bust and signed an over the hill broke down 3-4 DE.

2. We were told that a QB competition would be held, but from day one Orton is the only guy who got real first team reps. We were then told that performance in pre-season games would be a big key, but again Orton is the only guy who played with the first unit. Then Orton is proclaimed the victor after week 2 when no competition was actually held.

3. The new brain trust, most notably Xanders, railed on McDaniels moves saying this was a changing of the guard and a fresh start. Then they use almost the exact same roster McDaniels put together last year. A half dozen new starters out of 22 (more if you want to count #3 WR, #3 CB etc.), three of those we just drafted.

They grossly over promised and then under delivered by an equally wide margin. If this team was ran with real commitment to what it said we would have dumped Orton, saved $9M, coupled that $9M with the $4M we gave Warren, and signed two out of Mebane, Cofield, and Cullen Jenkins. Then we would have aggressively pursued veteran OLs to take the pressure off Walton and Beadles, letting them develop with Magazu, not throw them into the fire. We'd have started our young QB and let him prove himself out of the gate.

We'd also likely be 3-0 right now.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 10:02 AM
Did you just claim McDaniels only bad moves were Cutler and Hillis? Wtf? Then you claim they weren't that bad? So why did we end up with the worst team in franchise history?

You have to actually hate the Broncos in order to still defend McDaniels. Way to show your true colors raider fan.

Yeah, true, there was a couple of more f-up's. The first indication McD was an f-up was firing Jeremy Bates without even talking to him, the explanation being "I'll be calling the plays". Then dumping the long-snapper Mike Leach who was just fine and also was consistently making first contact on the punt returner.

I don't miss Brandon Marshall at all, McD coached him to the best TD year he's ever had (10 TD's 2009), then got two #2's for Marshall. Scheffler? Meh.

The Phonz Smith deal stunk for sure, but how much of that was Nolan, and how much McD? Did Nolan want him, or was it all McD? I'm still not clear about that. I have a hard time seeing Phonz Smith as a McD pick, or Ayers. I think Nolan had a lot of input on the D picks that first McD draft in 2009 (Ayers, Phonz Smith, McBath, Bruton). Richard Quinn was all McD I'm sure of that.

McD made an ass of himself cutting Weigman and Ben Hamilton, kicked them to the curb and while doing so called them "old and slow", and then had to start two rookies (Beadles and Walton) at their positions, which didn't work out well, but maybe will in the future.

So, yeah, I made a short post and now I got into it a little more, and now are you satisfied?

As for the rest of your post, up yours punk. 8')

jhns
09-26-2011, 10:08 AM
McFans make me sick. How can you hate this franchise so much?

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 10:14 AM
Lonie Paxton can snap the **** out of the ball.

Paxton was a f-up of a move, but he's done well. OTOH, Leach was just fine. McD ran roughshod all over the franchise, but left SOME decent pieces in place for the new regime to make use of. I'm constantly a glass half-full kind of guy, though.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 10:17 AM
McFans make me sick. How can you hate this franchise so much?

You're a fool.

jhns
09-26-2011, 10:20 AM
You're a fool.

And you think a guy was doing a good job even though the results prove otherwise...

Chris
09-26-2011, 10:21 AM
EFX = Elway, Fox, Xanders.

And there are a handful of very valid sources of animosity towards anyone who has decision making power with the Broncos.

1. We were explicitly told that the DL, most notably DT, would be addressed. We then ignored it in the draft, ignored it the first week of FA when all the long term options signed up, and then traded for a 1st round bust and signed an over the hill broke down 3-4 DE.

2. We were told that a QB competition would be held, but from day one Orton is the only guy who got real first team reps. We were then told that performance in pre-season games would be a big key, but again Orton is the only guy who played with the first unit. Then Orton is proclaimed the victor after week 2 when no competition was actually held.

3. The new brain trust, most notably Xanders, railed on McDaniels moves saying this was a changing of the guard and a fresh start. Then they use almost the exact same roster McDaniels put together last year. A half dozen new starters out of 22 (more if you want to count #3 WR, #3 CB etc.), three of those we just drafted.

They grossly over promised and then under delivered by an equally wide margin. If this team was ran with real commitment to what it said we would have dumped Orton, saved $9M, coupled that $9M with the $4M we gave Warren, and signed two out of Mebane, Cofield, and Cullen Jenkins. Then we would have aggressively pursued veteran OLs to take the pressure off Walton and Beadles, letting them develop with Magazu, not throw them into the fire. We'd have started our young QB and let him prove himself out of the gate.

We'd also likely be 3-0 right now.

But we didn't.

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 10:57 AM
EFX = Elway, Fox, Xanders.

And there are a handful of very valid sources of animosity towards anyone who has decision making power with the Broncos.

1. We were explicitly told that the DL, most notably DT, would be addressed. We then ignored it in the draft, ignored it the first week of FA when all the long term options signed up, and then traded for a 1st round bust and signed an over the hill broke down 3-4 DE.

2. We were told that a QB competition would be held, but from day one Orton is the only guy who got real first team reps. We were then told that performance in pre-season games would be a big key, but again Orton is the only guy who played with the first unit. Then Orton is proclaimed the victor after week 2 when no competition was actually held.

3. The new brain trust, most notably Xanders, railed on McDaniels moves saying this was a changing of the guard and a fresh start. Then they use almost the exact same roster McDaniels put together last year. A half dozen new starters out of 22 (more if you want to count #3 WR, #3 CB etc.), three of those we just drafted.

They grossly over promised and then under delivered by an equally wide margin. If this team was ran with real commitment to what it said we would have dumped Orton, saved $9M, coupled that $9M with the $4M we gave Warren, and signed two out of Mebane, Cofield, and Cullen Jenkins. Then we would have aggressively pursued veteran OLs to take the pressure off Walton and Beadles, letting them develop with Magazu, not throw them into the fire. We'd have started our young QB and let him prove himself out of the gate.

We'd also likely be 3-0 right now.

How much of the already too short offseason would you have wasted with a QB who wasn't going to start games running with the 1st team offense? 20%, 50%? Do you think that would have improved our offense in any way?

So let me guess this right, you think the right move is to start veterans on the offensive line and let the players drafted in 2010 develop on the sideline, but you want to start the QB who was drafted in 2010 because having a veteran starting is wrong? Can you explain me to if you think it is better to have a veteran starting and young players on the bench learning or if young players should start so they can prove themselves? you seem conflicted.

TonyR
09-26-2011, 11:11 AM
Right now Justin Bannan would be a better starting DT than anyone on our team.

Really? You'd take Bannan over Bunkley?

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 11:21 AM
Really? You'd take Bannan over Bunkley?

**** no. I wouldn't take THREE Bannans over Bunkley.

bronco militia
09-26-2011, 11:23 AM
http://www.ifimages.com/photos/AO0eCekJkrKblrOxNmENtb8b0E8/author-798/Bananas-Yellow-Background.jpg

BroncoBuff
09-26-2011, 11:35 AM
Really? You'd take Bannan over Bunkley?
I like Bannan because he can play all 3 D-line spots.

Besides, something is not right with Bunkley ... coming off his 1st-round rookie contract, Eagles didn't make an offer. We got him for what, $600k?

Supposedly Josh likes Bannan. Josh liking you is not exactly resume material, not a ringing endorsement, but supposedly he pushed to bring him to the Rams.



If this team was ran with real commitment to what it said we would have dumped Orton, saved $9M, coupled that $9M with the $4M we gave Warren, and signed two out of Mebane, Cofield, and Cullen Jenkins. Then we would have aggressively pursued veteran OLs to take the pressure off Walton and Beadles, letting them develop with Magazu, not throw them into the fire. We'd have started our young QB and let him prove himself out of the gate.

We'd also likely be 3-0 right now.
Now that's a plan. Rebuilding means rebuilding, not this scratching and clawing just enough wins to draft the next Knowshon instead of the next Von Miller.

lonestar
09-26-2011, 11:57 AM
Clearly you're a bigger Shanahan fan than a Bronco fan.

I suspect your closer to the truth than anyone wants to admit..

vonqkilla
09-26-2011, 12:01 PM
Yep, euther its tebow, or whoever we pick in the draft.

We know its not NECKBEARD.

WolfpackGuy
09-26-2011, 12:02 PM
Lonie Paxton can snap the **** out of the ball.

Forget his two-hopper in the Jets game last year?

lonestar
09-26-2011, 12:16 PM
Kaylore...let's see how the next 2 games go before we get too caught up with our improvement.

To this point in the season, I think we have played tough, with a lot of young guys stepping up. That's encouraging for the future.

Two things that have to change:

1. Kyle Orton...he maybe a vet, but he is too damn ordinary to carry us anywhere.

2. Whether it's Orton, Quinn or Tebow....McCoy needs to stretch the field more on offense. I understand Fox is a run, run, run, punt coach...but, this offense takes zero chances. We were much better in this area last year.

3. Pass rush. Our run defense has improved some...but, we still aren't getting to the QB enough and they are carving us up.


BTW that is THREE things not two

As for Orton being ordinary to carry us anywhere..

do you see this team being a playoff team this year? because unless they resign him he is gone after the first week in JAN.

so WHO cares about carrying us anywhere..

we have not had a worthwhile pass rush since the super bowl players retired.. and a lot of that had to do with the other team being down three TDs in the first quarter..

SO lets not get hyper about getting a pass rush right away.. I think IF DOOM can stay off the injury report on a weekly basis. Doom along with Miller will make a difference maybe not enough but get a DT that is capable of moving the pocket and we will get more sacks and picks off of pressures..

But they are going to have to draft the DT on day one in order to get one that is worth a crap..

Warren and Bunkley are stop gaps and by the time the new guys are ready to play they will be on their last legs ..

as far as stretching the field not going to happen with Fox. so the only way for that to happen is Fox moving on..

lonestar
09-26-2011, 12:24 PM
Did you just claim McDaniels only bad moves were Cutler and Hillis? Wtf? Then you claim they weren't that bad? So why did we end up with the worst team in franchise history?

You have to actually hate the Broncos in order to still defend McDaniels. Way to show your true colors raider fan.

Actually the jaysus move was not his.

that was jaysus demanding a trade the day he was announced as HC and going down hill from there until Pat said trade the moke..

could jaysus been salvaged perhaps with a huge contract, but a new coach walking in the door is not going to do that without proof that he is worth it..

I suspect that jaysus's performance since really shows that he is not worth being paid what he is..

And please do not play the OL card because 98% of the folks here called it bunk when used for Orton in the first two years..

Is his OL poor? yep, but lots of those sacks are on jaysus's shoulders for holding the ball to long..

not to mention his other turn overs..

We are a better team without jaysus.. IMO..

jhns
09-26-2011, 12:29 PM
Actually the jaysus move was not his.

that was jaysus demanding a trade the day he was announced as HC and going down hill from there until Pat said trade the moke..

could jaysus been salvaged perhaps with a huge contract, but a new coach walking in the door is not going to do that without proof that he is worth it..

I suspect that jaysus's performance since really shows that he is not worth being paid what he is..

And please do not play the OL card because 98% of the folks here called it bunk when used for Orton in the first two years..

Is his OL poor? yep, but lots of those sacks are on jaysus's shoulders for holding the ball to long..

not to mention his other turn overs..

We are a better team without jaysus.. IMO..

Yeah, except even your hero McDaniels says that your order of events are way off on the Cutler thing. Him and Bowlen have both said he never asked for a yltrade before McDaniels started with the childish games. He was even in the facility working with McDaniels until then, which just proves you are an idiot.

You McFans are some morons. Please stop acting like you are Bronco fans. You liked this team being driven into the ground enough that you are still making excuses and trying to justify it... So sad...

Drek
09-26-2011, 12:29 PM
How much of the already too short offseason would you have wasted with a QB who wasn't going to start games running with the 1st team offense? 20%, 50%? Do you think that would have improved our offense in any way?
You know who had a real QB competition in the shortened off-season?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__eHxPP71clo/SVvQ8cAo8yI/AAAAAAAAAlA/P9PbusgI9OI/s320/Shanahan.jpg
^This guy. He's 2-0.

So let me guess this right, you think the right move is to start veterans on the offensive line and let the players drafted in 2010 develop on the sideline, but you want to start the QB who was drafted in 2010 because having a veteran starting is wrong? Can you explain me to if you think it is better to have a veteran starting and young players on the bench learning or if young players should start so they can prove themselves? you seem conflicted.
I like competition. Put veterans around Beadles and Walton so they get the job when they're ready, not because we have no other options.

We didn't throw Tebow out year one, he spent the whole season learning. I view Beadles and Walton as basically starting over from scratch since they got such poor coaching last year. Tebow is still working with the same OC in a similar scheme, going into year two. He deserved real game time with the #1's before Orton was handed the job.

Really? You'd take Bannan over Bunkley?

Eh, probably a bit of hyperbole. Bunkley has much more upside and does similar things already. But Bannan would easily be our #2 DT, a massive upgrade over Vickerson.

lonestar
09-26-2011, 12:46 PM
Yeah, except even your hero McDaniels says that your order of events are way off on the Cutler thing. Him and Bowlen have both said he never asked for a yltrade before McDaniels started with the childish games. He was even in the facility working with McDaniels until then, which just proves you are an idiot.

You McFans are some morons. Please stop acting like you are Bronco fans. You liked this team being driven into the ground enough that you are still making excuses and trying to justify it... So sad...

there is documentation from DP writers stating he requested a trade as Josh was not his choice, he was pissed because Pat supposedly told him he would get a say so on who was hired and Josh was defiantly not one of them..

I thought what Josh was doing beefing up the OL, going to a power blocking scheme in particular was something we needed to do a decade ago as the ZBS is a loser inside the red zone without HOF players in Zimmerman, TD, Elway and Sharpe..

You actually know that a player can be working out in the weight room and still be seeking a trade.. they are not mutually exculsive..

so sad to see the mikey love in your posts a little man love huh?

There were other things I liked about Josh mainly he was not mikey..

jhns
09-26-2011, 12:56 PM
there is documentation from DP writers stating he requested a trade as Josh was not his choice, he was pissed because Pat supposedly told him he would get a say so on who was hired and Josh was defiantly not one of them..

I thought what Josh was doing beefing up the OL, going to a power blocking scheme in particular was something we needed to do a decade ago as the ZBS is a loser inside the red zone without HOF players in Zimmerman, TD, Elway and Sharpe..

You actually know that a player can be working out in the weight room and still be seeking a trade.. they are not mutually exculsive..

so sad to see the mikey love in your posts a little man love huh?

There were other things I liked about Josh mainly he was not mikey..

So there is documented proof that a tabloid that always makes stuff up, claimed something? Wonderful!

Bowlen, McDanieos, and Cutler have all responded to questions about your little rumor(which just so happens to have not come out until McFans were making excuses for his incompetence after the Cassel trade crap) and everyone involved said it wasn't true.

You McFans should just give up. You are defending the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. You can't do this and claim to like this franchise.

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 12:59 PM
You know who had a real QB competition in the shortened off-season?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__eHxPP71clo/SVvQ8cAo8yI/AAAAAAAAAlA/P9PbusgI9OI/s320/Shanahan.jpg
^This guy. He's 2-0.



Other teams that had QB competitions: Jacksonville, Cincinnati and Minnesota, teams that have combined for 2-7.


I like competition. Put veterans around Beadles and Walton so they get the job when they're ready, not because we have no other options.

We didn't throw Tebow out year one, he spent the whole season learning. I view Beadles and Walton as basically starting over from scratch since they got such poor coaching last year. Tebow is still working with the same OC in a similar scheme, going into year two. He deserved real game time with the #1's before Orton was handed the job.


So you are looking for veterans who are starter qualities on the offensive line who are willing to come in for a short time until a younger guy can take their job? Where would you find these veterans? Quality players don't just hang on trees you know.

What did he do to deserve playing time with the #1s? he was awful in practices early on, or should he have a mulligan for a few weeks?

Drek
09-26-2011, 01:31 PM
Other teams that had QB competitions: Jacksonville, Cincinnati and Minnesota, teams that have combined for 2-7.
Jacksonville fired their starter at the end of pre-season, it wasn't a competition they just dumped him because the owner was cheap. Cincinnati had Dalton as the #1 by a mile from day one, same with Minnesota and McNabb. None of those were real competitions like Fox promised we'd see with Tebow and Orton. Washington had a real competition and they're doing fine.

So you are looking for veterans who are starter qualities on the offensive line who are willing to come in for a short time until a younger guy can take their job? Where would you find these veterans? Quality players don't just hang on trees you know.

What did he do to deserve playing time with the #1s? he was awful in practices early on, or should he have a mulligan for a few weeks?

Kevin Mawae made the pro-bowl before no one signed him last year. Why not bring in a proven vet like that? He's probably toast physically but his experience alone on the bench would be worth the price of admission.

Andre Gurode was cut by Dallas, signed on with Baltimore as strictly a backup.

Jared Gaither is only 25, he's got serious injury concerns but he's still better than any of our OT depth. signed on with KC as strictly a backup.

I could go on, but those are guys who were available weeks after FA opened.

Instead we kept the same scrubs who couldn't even remotely challenge rookie 2nd and 3rd round picks.

Popps
09-26-2011, 02:39 PM
Drek,

Agree that we could have been more aggressive in padding our depth in free-agency.
I'm not sure what the thought process was there. I know the staff said they didn't see much they liked. To be fair, two of the biggest signings of the off-season were Thomas and Warren, and both are hurt. As for the OL, they must see things in our interior starters that I don't. Some have made the case that we're improving on the OL, so I'm going to try to be patient.

Popps
09-26-2011, 02:53 PM
Back to Kaylore's OP.... a few notes that might support what he's seeing....

-Broncos are ranked 7th in the league in 3rd down percentage.

-Kyle Orton has over 100 QB rating on 3rd downs.

-Our defense is ranked 12th in 3rd down %. (Someone check me on this, but I believe this is correct.)

-Our defense is ranked 14th in scoring D.

-Defense ranked 15th in total yards allowed

-Offense 12th in redzone scoring %

Those are obviously some signs of improvement over last season.

Most of the negatives are on offense, of course. Turnover ratio is -4. Points we're ranked 21st. 27th in rushing yards per game, 22nd in passing yards per game. Orton's overall passer rating is just 79.)

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 03:14 PM
Jacksonville fired their starter at the end of pre-season, it wasn't a competition they just dumped him because the owner was cheap. Cincinnati had Dalton as the #1 by a mile from day one, same with Minnesota and McNabb. None of those were real competitions like Fox promised we'd see with Tebow and Orton. Washington had a real competition and they're doing fine.



Kevin Mawae made the pro-bowl before no one signed him last year. Why not bring in a proven vet like that? He's probably toast physically but his experience alone on the bench would be worth the price of admission.

Andre Gurode was cut by Dallas, signed on with Baltimore as strictly a backup.

Jared Gaither is only 25, he's got serious injury concerns but he's still better than any of our OT depth. signed on with KC as strictly a backup.

I could go on, but those are guys who were available weeks after FA opened.

Instead we kept the same scrubs who couldn't even remotely challenge rookie 2nd and 3rd round picks.

There was very real competition in Jacksonville, that is why Garrard was fired he wasn't good enough. In Minnesota both Webb and Ponder got a shot in TC but weren't convincing and in Cincinnati it didn't take them long to work out Dalton was their better option, but all 3 teams had an open QB spot and the best man won it.

Gaither is a backup on a weak offensive line, Gurode got beaten out by 2 undrafted players with no experience - this should be hint enough that neither is much use to us. How would it help having a 200 year old backup on the bench? what you wanted was someone who could start now and show Walton and Beadles the ropes. You need to look at actual play and not just the name, this isn't a pro bowl vote, it is actual competitive football - your name means jack on the field on sundays.

lonestar
09-26-2011, 04:54 PM
So there is documented proof that a tabloid that always makes stuff up, claimed something? Wonderful!

Bowlen, McDanieos, and Cutler have all responded to questions about your little rumor(which just so happens to have not come out until McFans were making excuses for his incompetence after the Cassel trade crap) and everyone involved said it wasn't true.

You McFans should just give up. You are defending the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. You can't do this and claim to like this franchise.

what do you expect them to say, save your bromance for mikey with someone that cares..

As for the cassel trade it did not happen did it.. so time to let it go..

No there have been many other WORSE things that have happened to the broncos during my fanship..


I have forgotten more of the broncos than you probably know..

I was there day one for the home opener had season tickets from 1060 through 1079 when I moved out of state for good.

Been to countless practice sessions while thet were still at the north denver complex.
Was in sponsors boxes for even more games..

I probably have more time in the urinal line than you do at games..

so spare me the "You can't do this and claim to like this franchise. crap..

I've earned my spurs..

lonestar
09-26-2011, 05:03 PM
Drek,

Agree that we could have been more aggressive in padding our depth in free-agency.
I'm not sure what the thought process was there. I know the staff said they didn't see much they liked. To be fair, two of the biggest signings of the off-season were Thomas and Warren, and both are hurt. As for the OL, they must see things in our interior starters that I don't. Some have made the case that we're improving on the OL, so I'm going to try to be patient.

good post..

we have trhrown money at washed up veterans for going on a decade and what did it get for us ONE count in ONE playoff win..

whoptiy ****ing do..

I like Johns apporoach bring in guys that are not washed up and can either contribute as starters OR rotaional backups.

could we have been more proactive earlier in the FA period perhaps and who knows if we did not invite some of them in for a look see and they declined not something you want to publish..

Just maybe Cofield said I do not want anything to do with your pathetic assed team.. Something we will never know..

Not many players really want to move to DEN when they can play in other garden spots and media hot spots..

hell if I had to chose between DEN and MIA I'd take a hell of a lot less to play in FL with their NO state tax and better weather..

I've lived in many places from east coast to west coast and almost every where in between and while I love DEN I would not move back there at this stage of my life.. Not sure I would have done it 30 years ago..

lonestar
09-26-2011, 05:05 PM
Back to Kaylore's OP.... a few notes that might support what he's seeing....

-Broncos are ranked 7th in the league in 3rd down percentage.

-Kyle Orton has over 100 QB rating on 3rd downs.

-Our defense is ranked 12th in 3rd down %. (Someone check me on this, but I believe this is correct.)

-Our defense is ranked 14th in scoring D.

-Defense ranked 15th in total yards allowed

-Offense 12th in redzone scoring %

Those are obviously some signs of improvement over last season.

Most of the negatives are on offense, of course. Turnover ratio is -4. Points we're ranked 21st. 27th in rushing yards per game, 22nd in passing yards per game. Orton's overall passer rating is just 79.)


I can think of many other things to whine about besides Orton..

Requiem
09-26-2011, 05:19 PM
Orton sucks. :)

vonqkilla
09-26-2011, 05:27 PM
You have to be exceptionally good at a few things to consistently win. In the 80s it was Elway passing, making plays, and a tough defense that got Takeaways, not turnovers.

90s it was dominate running game, play action big plays, and blitzes that got takeaways.

What are we exceptionally good at now?
Nothing on offense.

KO qb rating in 4th qtr down by 7 or less.

45

Fact, our big play offense is play action, something Orton was a stud at last year.

In game changing play action plays he made a horrible throw to Decker for a pick, fumbled vs Raiders, and also pump faked a cover 2 safety and threw a pick as lloyd went on 9 and threw
a back shoulder fade.

lonestar
09-27-2011, 10:01 AM
Orton sucks. :)

still on that jaysus teat?

Agamemnon
09-27-2011, 10:29 AM
Back to Kaylore's OP.... a few notes that might support what he's seeing....

-Broncos are ranked 7th in the league in 3rd down percentage.

-Kyle Orton has over 100 QB rating on 3rd downs.

-Our defense is ranked 12th in 3rd down %. (Someone check me on this, but I believe this is correct.)

-Our defense is ranked 14th in scoring D.

-Defense ranked 15th in total yards allowed

-Offense 12th in redzone scoring %

Those are obviously some signs of improvement over last season.

Most of the negatives are on offense, of course. Turnover ratio is -4. Points we're ranked 21st. 27th in rushing yards per game, 22nd in passing yards per game. Orton's overall passer rating is just 79.)

Getting better in some areas and getting worse in others is not improvement.

lonestar
09-27-2011, 01:58 PM
Orton sucks. :)

you were always a jaysus man from day one so whats new..

jhns
09-27-2011, 02:06 PM
what do you expect them to say, save your bromance for mikey with someone that cares..

As for the cassel trade it did not happen did it.. so time to let it go..

No there have been many other WORSE things that have happened to the broncos during my fanship..


I have forgotten more of the broncos than you probably know..

I was there day one for the home opener had season tickets from 1060 through 1079 when I moved out of state for good.

Been to countless practice sessions while thet were still at the north denver complex.
Was in sponsors boxes for even more games..

I probably have more time in the urinal line than you do at games..

so spare me the " crap..

I've earned my spurs..

I don't know, you just keep believing everything the tabloids tell you though. Who cares what the people in the situation say!

Let it go? I wasn't aware that I was hanging on. By your reasoning, you need to let Cutler go.

Yes, he was the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. What was worse than the guy that gave away all the talent on his way to the worst season in this franchises history? I am very interested in your answer. McFans make me laugh...

You are still trying to defend the worst thing that ever happened to this franchise. You are doing this while claiming to be a fan. That is just stupid.

You should spend less time in the bathroom. You tell me that you go to games, but don't watch them, andvI am supposed to be impressed?

vancejohnson82
09-27-2011, 02:16 PM
what do you expect them to say, save your bromance for mikey with someone that cares..

As for the cassel trade it did not happen did it.. so time to let it go..

No there have been many other WORSE things that have happened to the broncos during my fanship..


I have forgotten more of the broncos than you probably know..

I was there day one for the home opener had season tickets from 1060 through 1079 when I moved out of state for good.

Been to countless practice sessions while thet were still at the north denver complex.
Was in sponsors boxes for even more games..

I probably have more time in the urinal line than you do at games..

so spare me the " crap..

I've earned my spurs..

I think you are thinking of the Roman gladiator games.....

and they were held at the Collousseum

TheReverend
09-27-2011, 02:23 PM
still on that jaysus teat?

you were always a jaysus man from day one so whats new..

So when he ignored your dumb ass post for 4 hours you thought to yourself: "Why don't I just post it again?"

lonestar
09-27-2011, 10:25 PM
I think you are thinking of the Roman gladiator games.....

and they were held at the Collousseum


good catch went right over lots of others head..


sometimes posting on an iphone stuff like that happens small keyboard very big fingers..I think we all know it should have been 1960-1979,


About 90% of my posts these days are on the iphone while waiting in doctors offices, airports or the library.

Rarely do I have time to get on a real computer like now..

lonestar
09-27-2011, 10:27 PM
So when he ignored your dumb ass post for 4 hours you thought to yourself: "Why don't I just post it again?"


once again iphone to blame thought I had posted it and did not see it so posted it again..

but in this case a few jaysus fans that still have not realized he is not coming back, to save their reps..

Archer81
09-27-2011, 10:29 PM
I think you are thinking of the Roman gladiator games.....

and they were held at the Collousseum


People were too busy avoiding the plague and the barbarian tribes to engage in gladitorial games in 1060-1079.

:Broncos:

lonestar
09-27-2011, 10:43 PM
I don't know, you just keep believing everything the tabloids tell you though. Who cares what the people in the situation say! Let it go? I wasn't aware that I was hanging on. By your reasoning, you need to let Cutler go.Yes, he was the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. What was worse than the guy that gave away all the talent on his way to the worst season in this franchises history? I am very interested in your answer. McFans make me laugh...You are still trying to defend the worst thing that ever happened to this franchise. You are doing this while claiming to be a fan. That is just stupid.You should spend less time in the bathroom. You tell me that you go to games, but don't watch them, andvI am supposed to be impressed?
I've been told by several folks your iggy material so I will try and do this one more time and if you do not get it to iggy you will go.

I'm a bronco fan since the late 50's when they were being born. Went to every game from one on till I went on active duty in the late 60's.

As for Josh well I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree

You see I thought Mikey was
Much more responsibke for the poor state of player personell than Josh was. Josh was left with crap FO depth and an OL that could not block their way out of a wet paper bag inside the five.

Funny that 3 starters on D from 08 made the team the next year with the other 8 either being a backup or not in the NFL in 09.

Yep Mikey left Josh with 3 headcases jaysus, bm and ts. All players who thought the team revolved around them and expected to be paid like it tyat coming spring. Crap for true RBs and one worthwhile WR in Eddie.

So while your whining about Josh dismantling that jugernaught of a team Remember inside the red zone they stunk it up. Between the 20's they were great.
Also remember that two of the headcases could not hold or did not want to play for Josh and requested trades after they proved their lack of game prep.

Yes I know that bm was a great bubble screen guy. But at the time about all he could handle mentally.

Wes Mantooth
09-27-2011, 10:47 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.


Found it refreshing to see a pass-catching tight end and fullback. Think our o-line is improving and the running game is light years beyond last year.

epicSocialism4tw
09-27-2011, 10:49 PM
Found it refreshing to see a pass-catching tight end and fullback. Think our o-line is improving and the running game is light years beyond last year.

Agreed.

vancejohnson82
09-27-2011, 10:50 PM
good catch went right over lots of others head..


sometimes posting on an iphone stuff like that happens small keyboard very big fingers..I think we all know it should have been 1960-1979,


About 90% of my posts these days are on the iphone while waiting in doctors offices, airports or the library.

Rarely do I have time to get on a real computer like now..

haha.....I was just kidding bruh

btw, JHNS is fun to ignore...but even more entertaining to read at times

depends on what kind of reading you like to do

lonestar
09-27-2011, 10:52 PM
haha.....I was just kidding bruh

btw, JHNS is fun to ignore...but even more entertaining to read at times

depends on what kind of reading you like to do

your about the tenth one to say that most of them came from PM's and rep messages..

vancejohnson82
09-27-2011, 10:56 PM
your about the tenth one to say that most of them came from PM's and rep messages..

hahaha....yea, he goes on and off of iggy for me

its entertaining to read at times...annoying at others

kind of like reading the newspaper comics....its all about how your sense of humor is handling the day

jhns
09-28-2011, 07:18 AM
I've been told by several folks your iggy material so I will try and do this one more time and if you do not get it to iggy you will go.

I'm a bronco fan since the late 50's when they were being born. Went to every game from one on till I went on active duty in the late 60's.

As for Josh well I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree

You see I thought Mikey was
Much more responsibke for the poor state of player personell than Josh was. Josh was left with crap FO depth and an OL that could not block their way out of a wet paper bag inside the five.

Funny that 3 starters on D from 08 made the team the next year with the other 8 either being a backup or not in the NFL in 09.

Yep Mikey left Josh with 3 headcases jaysus, bm and ts. All players who thought the team revolved around them and expected to be paid like it tyat coming spring. Crap for true RBs and one worthwhile WR in Eddie.

So while your whining about Josh dismantling that jugernaught of a team Remember inside the red zone they stunk it up. Between the 20's they were great.
Also remember that two of the headcases could not hold or did not want to play for Josh and requested trades after they proved their lack of game prep.

Yes I know that bm was a great bubble screen guy. But at the time about all he could handle mentally.

You mise well put me on ignore then because you McFans are retarded.

He got the best line in the league... He got an offense that was good with all but three players having less than four years in the league. You are defending the guy that trashed this franchise. You say it was Shanahans fault. McDaniels was 8-8 in year one. Guess who brought in all of the best players currently on the team, other than the one Elway just brought in? Thats right, Shanahan. Your hero tanked this franchise after a second failed offseason and from horrible coaching. He got rid of talent and didn't replace it. He then embarraseed this franchise with cheating scandals and you like it, because you hate this franchise. Good luck with that.

You claim those guys were problems as they haven't had any problems with anyone but your hero. The same guy that had problems with others, like Nolan. Sure, your argument really makes sense...

So I, as a real fan, defend the best coach in this franchisss history. You, as a "fan", defend the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. Keep thinking that this makes you the greatest fan ever. I will continue laughing at the stupidity.

DontBeMessin
09-28-2011, 12:52 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.


Hilarious!


Seriously though... K... Your just a nice guy is all... with positive hopes and dreams!

s0phr0syne
09-28-2011, 03:27 PM
I thought this was a gritty game on the road. Maybe its expectations, but I didn't even expect to be in this game. We had so many starters, playmaking starters out, that I didn't even think this was going to be close at the half.

On offense our offensive line out-played theirs. They've played better and better every year. I think we need a better guard and maybe center, but I think the pieces are there to have a great offensive line. When you consider the lack of depth at receiver and who our QB is, we actually did phenomenally.

Our defensive was outstanding. We shut down Chris Johnson and while we got beat up in the air, we made some great plays keeping good pressure and forced some turnovers.

We were physical and kept it close and had a chance to win. Again, I am not happy we lost, but I didn't expect to be this close. We're a decent QB away from fielding a competitive team.

I also remind everyone its going to take years to fix what McDaniels did and the people already questioning EFX three games into the season seem premature to me. They deserve another draft and another season to get going.


Finally got to d/l and watch torrent. Gotta agree, although we managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, on the whole I thought the team looked good. Great job bottling up their run game. A healthy Champ would have made a world of difference. The margin of "fluke" by which we lost was narrow...was a 50/50 game against a tough, physical defense.

You say we're a decent QB away from being a competitive team; I'd say we just need an RB and some more competition along the OL.

lonestar
09-28-2011, 05:08 PM
You mise well put me on ignore then because you McFans are retarded.

He got the best line in the league... He got an offense that was good with all but three players having less than four years in the league. You are defending the guy that trashed this franchise. You say it was Shanahans fault. McDaniels was 8-8 in year one. Guess who brought in all of the best players currently on the team, other than the one Elway just brought in? Thats right, Shanahan. Your hero tanked this franchise after a second failed offseason and from horrible coaching. He got rid of talent and didn't replace it. He then embarraseed this franchise with cheating scandals and you like it, because you hate this franchise. Good luck with that.

You claim those guys were problems as they haven't had any problems with anyone but your hero. The same guy that had problems with others, like Nolan. Sure, your argument really makes sense...

So I, as a real fan, defend the best coach in this franchisss history. You, as a "fan", defend the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. Keep thinking that this makes you the greatest fan ever. I will continue laughing at the stupidity.

BEst line in the NFL you have to be kidding me..
They were not worth a crap in the red zone.. had not been for almost a decade one of the reasons Elam left the broncos as their all time scoring leader..

inside the ten they were even worse..

now they were indeed the #2 offense in the nfl but that was between the twenties..


yes conveniently forget that mikey was fined twice for cheating on cap money during those super bowl years. and tell me that Joshes failure to report an underling is in the same class ..

$50K vs $250K

You need to pull your head out from between mikeys ass check and take a look at his "winning record" over the past decade.. that is in playoff wins ONE count it ONE .. and frankly that that is all that matters. having a great first part of each season and then have to hold on for dear life in the last 6 weeks of the season just to make it a winning season and then go to the play offs and get our asses kicked EVERY fricking time but once yep great HC..

oh and if it was not for Houcklis fast whistle in that first SAN game they would not have been 8-8 his final year.


yep mikeys great players lets see Clady and Kuper that is about it on O and Doom DJ (imo an OK LB that is grossly overpaid.

Champ yep he is but what did mikey do with him other than hang him out to dry once he got here..

Go back and count just how many first day picks that mikey made that was resigned by the broncos out of 45 there are 4 so far.. talk about ****ing hogans goat on day one where every other franchise that is worth a crap has built its foundations to win play off games with..

I've forgot more about the broncos good and bad that you johnny come latleys will know..