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SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:04 PM
I don't care if this is a tired argument. I'm saying it anyway. Sue me. Well, with a twist.

If you think Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win as a starting QB, FINE, I don't necessarily agree, but I'll trust the coach's football expertise over mine.

Since the retirement of Davis, goal line offense has been the Broncos achilles heel. Last year, when McD implemented the Tebow goalline offense, the problems disappeared over night. OVER NIGHT. Not including the games he started, i dont even recall a SINGLE PLAY that didnt go for a TD out of that jumbo goal line package. There's a lot of film and a lot of proof that its incredibly effective and that Tim Tebow is a top 3 goal line threat in the league, if not the absolute best at it (he was great at FLA too).

John Fox gives us a lot of BS about "we play so and so cuz so and so gives us the best chance to win." So, riddle me this...why not play Tebow at the goal line when, clearly, he's, BY FAR, the best Bronco option at the goal line? 1st and 5 at the goal line? orton shouldnt be on the ****ing field.

Is it political reasons? Is it cause youre stubborn, coach Fox? We lost both our games this year because we couldnt score from the goal line (well its not the sole reason, but its a reason). If you had a 6'3 250 FB that had an uncanny knack for finding inches near the goal line, you'd play him without a second thought. Ours just happens to play QB.

I'm sorry, this is a fireable offense to me. You're purposely keeping an amazing option on the bench because you don't want to "make waves." Hey John Fox, if the Broncos were 3-0 right now, Bronco Nation would be incredibly happy and would NOT question your decisions. But because you are stubborn, we're 1-2 and, ironically, your getting exactly what you're trying to avoid.

RhymesayersDU
09-25-2011, 02:06 PM
It's stubbornness, IMO.

Look, if he wants to start Orton, fine. Like you, I'll buy best chance to win, etc.

But IMO him not playing Tebow at all is stubbornness/ego. He wants to prove he can do it without a gimmick, etc.

At least, that's how I see it.

zdoor
09-25-2011, 02:07 PM
I think he is afraid of adding to the QB controversy...

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:08 PM
Fox is proving to be the NFL version of a luddite

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:09 PM
I think he is afraid of adding to the QB controversy...

How would Tim Tebow running the ball in create a controversy. He's an asshole if he believes this. You know how you avoid a controversy? WIN GAMES. His decisions are losing us games.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 02:09 PM
He wants to prove he can do it without a gimmick, etc.

1) the brass doesn't want to do anything to flame the Tebow fires
2) he's not going to play Orton, have Orton get in the red zone, then pull him - it's like riding your #1 RB 80 yards down the field, only to have him trot off for some bruiser to get a the final 3 yards and six. It's a slap in the face.

(I'm not endorsing these sentiments, I simply believe them to be Foxes reasoning)

Broncos4Life
09-25-2011, 02:11 PM
A lot of Panther fans were upset and frustrated by the way Fox coached over the years. Stubborn is not going to win us games....

But remember, he said Denver was going to run the most sophisticated running game in the league. More like most predictable...

zdoor
09-25-2011, 02:11 PM
How would Tim Tebow running the ball in create a controversy. He's an a-hole if he believes this. You know how you avoid a controversy? WIN GAMES. His decisions are losing us games.

I agree. But, I think its why there's no Tebow package

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:11 PM
1) the brass doesn't want to do anything to flame the Tebow fires
2) he's not going to play Orton, have Orton get in the red zone, then pull him - it's like riding your #1 RB 80 yards down the field, only to have him trot off for some bruiser to get a the final 3 yards and six. It's a slap in the face.

(I'm not endorsing these sentiments, I simply believe them to be Foxes reasoning)

Then he should be fired. Kyle Orton makes a lot of money, I don't give a **** about his feelings.

The Joker
09-25-2011, 02:12 PM
it's like riding your #1 RB 80 yards down the field, only to have him trot off for some bruiser to get a the final 3 yards and six. It's a slap in the face.

Lot's of teams do this though, Oakland do it with Bush and McFadden for instance.

RhymesayersDU
09-25-2011, 02:12 PM
1) the brass doesn't want to do anything to flame the Tebow fires
2) he's not going to play Orton, have Orton get in the red zone, then pull him - it's like riding your #1 RB 80 yards down the field, only to have him trot off for some bruiser to get a the final 3 yards and six. It's a slap in the face.

(I'm not endorsing these sentiments, I simply believe them to be Foxes reasoning)

You may be right. But for #1 specifically, it's backwards logic. If we had won today with a Tebow TD, IMO fans would just be happy we won. Every single time we lose, the Tebow chants get louder.

To a certain extent I understand that if you let Tebow play, it's a can of worms. Catch-22 I suppose. Not playing Tebow and losing is worse, IMO.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 02:13 PM
Then he should be fired. Kyle Orton makes a lot of money, I don't give a **** about his feelings.

I'm on your side :thumbsup:

DrFate
09-25-2011, 02:16 PM
Lot's of teams do this though, Oakland do it with Bush and McFadden for instance.

It depends on the players, I guess. I know Warrick Dunn would get 80 yards and Alstott would get 3 yards and get to spike the ball.

If the 'team first' mentality is what made the decisions, Tebow would be in the field...

It's pretty clear to me that Orton thinks a lot of himself as a QB and probably wouldn't like coming out in the redzone. (My opinion based on his comments)

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:16 PM
You may be right. But for #1 specifically, it's backwards logic. If we had won today with a Tebow TD, IMO fans would just be happy we won. Every single time we lose, the Tebow chants get louder.

To a certain extent I understand that if you let Tebow play, it's a can of worms. Catch-22 I suppose. Not playing Tebow and losing is worse, IMO.

100 percent truth. As i said, he's causing the thing he's trying to avoid.

Alanis wrote a song about this. Yes, there is a way to use Tim Tebow that actually will quiet the crowds. Just ****in win games.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:17 PM
It depends on the players, I guess. I know Warrick Dunn would get 80 yards and Alstott would get 3 yards and get to spike the ball.

If the 'team first' mentality is what made the decisions, Tebow would be in the field...

It's pretty clear to me that Orton thinks a lot of himself as a QB and probably wouldn't like coming out in the redzone. (My opinion based on his comments)

And im not even talking about the redzone...im talking 5 yards and in.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 02:18 PM
If we had won today with a Tebow TD, IMO fans would just be happy we won.

But I think everyone would agree that if Tebow was productive, the boo birds would be on Orton even louder. There is a reason why Tebow didn't get any snaps with the first team in preseason...

NFLBRONCO
09-25-2011, 02:18 PM
The brass said, over and over the want Tebow a real QB not a gimmick QB (Ie red zone packages) 99% of coaches hate switching QB's like it or not.

cabronco
09-25-2011, 02:18 PM
I think he is afraid of adding to the QB controversy...


Thats all I can think of too.

If Tebow goes in for RZ and scores. Then that opens it up even more for fans to chant for Tebow, and Boo Orton. Not to mention the press asking more questions on Tebow scores points where Orton cant deliver, shouldnt you give TT a shot now ! I'm just saying the only reason why the coaching staff doesnt play TT. Its easier not playing him at all , at least to this point, not to rekindle more fires.

To me its a stubborn way of thinking, and are losing games we could of won !

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:19 PM
The brass said, over and over the want Tebow a real QB not a gimmick QB (Ie red zone packages) 99% of coaches hate switching QB's.

It's luddite thinking

RhymesayersDU
09-25-2011, 02:19 PM
But I think everyone would agree that if Tebow was productive, the boo birds would be on Orton even louder. There is a reason why Tebow didn't get any snaps with the first team in preseason...

Yeah, I can see that. I can honestly say, I wouldn't want to have to make that decision. Fox deserves some criticism, but this isn't a black and white issue, either. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 02:20 PM
And im not even talking about the redzone...im talking 5 yards and in.

I know what you mean - and again, I'm with you. But I just get the feeling that Fox is all about the 'old school' 'veterans play' mentality, and for Orton to get in the redzone and then have jog to the sideline for Tebow to get the rah rahs - I said it in preseason, I just didn't think it would happen.

And as soon as Tebow completes a pass for a TD, the calls for him to be the #1 get louder...

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:20 PM
Yeah, I can see that. I can honestly say, I wouldn't want to have to make that decision. Fox deserves some criticism, but this isn't a black and white issue, either. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Its a black and white issue. If we're 3-0, no one is questioning his moves. We're 1-2...people are questioning his moves. Tebow in a jumbo goal line package isn't going to ruffle the crowds...it might ignite his own rabid fan base, but they are ignited anyway.

Rohirrim
09-25-2011, 02:21 PM
Maybe Elway wants Luck?

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:21 PM
I know what you mean - and again, I'm with you. But I just get the feeling that Fox is all about the 'old school' 'veterans play' mentality, and for Orton to get in the redzone and then have jog to the sideline for Tebow to get the rah rahs - I said it in preseason, I just didn't think it would happen.

And as soon as Tebow completes a pass for a TD, the calls for him to be the #1 get louder...

Then he shouldnt be coaching. I'm sorry. its inexcusable

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:21 PM
Maybe Elway wants Luck?

Well then he's well on his way!

DrFate
09-25-2011, 02:23 PM
The real question on all of this - what happens if this team goes into the bye with a 1-4 record? (which is quite possible, maybe even likely)

Rohirrim
09-25-2011, 02:24 PM
Judging by the way the Oline responded to the cheap shot on Orton, they must like the guy. Maybe Fox feels that if he plays Tebow it would split the lockerroom, kind of the way the Cutler fiasco did?

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:24 PM
Then i can find something else to do with my sundays :)

RhymesayersDU
09-25-2011, 02:25 PM
Its a black and white issue. If we're 3-0, no one is questioning his moves. We're 1-2...people are questioning his moves. Tebow in a jumbo goal line package isn't going to ruffle the crowds...it might ignite his own rabid fan base, but they are ignited anyway.

I suppose. I mean, I want Tebow to start, so I'd love to see him in a goal line package, but I could understand the issues of controversy, etc, from Fox's point of view.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:25 PM
Judging by the way the Oline responded to the cheap shot on Orton, they must like the guy. Maybe Fox feels that if he plays Tebow it would split the lockerroom, kind of the way the Cutler fiasco did?

I see this point, but i dont think bringing him in on the goal line would do this...especially considering they did it a bunch last year AND IT WORKED AMAZINGLY. Again, if youre doing this for political reasons, then you shouldnt be coaching. Winning breeds confidence in coaching decisions.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:26 PM
I suppose. I mean, I want Tebow to start, so I'd love to see him in a goal line package, but I could understand the issues of controversy, etc, from Fox's point of view.

Inexcusable. Youre losing games for political reasons.

Momentum
09-25-2011, 02:26 PM
Why not slap #25 on Tebow and move him to his true position, RB. All is solved.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:26 PM
Why not slap #25 on Tebow and move him to his true position, RB. All is solved.

If he takes the direct snap, i dont give a **** what number he wears.

RhymesayersDU
09-25-2011, 02:27 PM
Inexcusable. Youre losing games for political reasons.

I think that's a typical fan's POV. And I don't mean that to sound condescending, either. I think there's (unfortunately) more things you have to think about as a head coach. Right or wrong, I think stuff like this plays into it.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:28 PM
I think that's a typical fan's POV. And I don't mean that to sound condescending, either. I think there's (unfortunately) more things you have to think about as a head coach. Right or wrong, I think stuff like this plays into it.

Nope. Sometimes people who have less expertise can see black and white easier. And this is black and white. I refuse to believe that him keeping our best option on the bench (in situational football!) is actually a service in any way. As i've said 50 times this thread: it's inexcusable.

DrFate
09-25-2011, 02:29 PM
Maybe Fox feels that if he plays Tebow it would split the lockerroom, kind of the way the Cutler fiasco did?

Honestly, this is one of the few explanations that makes logical sense (again, not that I agree with it in any way).

It would explain why they were so gung ho on trading Orton and then did a complete 180 on giving him the job without any real competition. (that or the incentives conspiracy :) )

I wondered a couple years ago if the Tebow 'rah rah go team' attitude would fly in a lockerroom with a bunch of cynical millionaires. Maybe he's not well liked.

RhymesayersDU
09-25-2011, 02:31 PM
Nope. Sometimes people who have less expertise can see black and white easier. And this is black and white. I refuse to believe that him keeping our best option on the bench (in situational football!) is actually a service in any way. As i've said 50 times this thread: it's inexcusable.

I'm with you. Like I said, I want Tebow to be our starter, so I sure as heck want him in even if only for a few plays. I just... I can somewhat see Fox's POV. That's all I'm saying.

I'm on board the Timmy Tebow train, for sure.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:32 PM
I'm with you. Like I said, I want Tebow to be our starter, so I sure as heck want him in even if only for a few plays. I just... I can somewhat see Fox's POV. That's all I'm saying.

I'm on board the Timmy Tebow train, for sure.

And i dont disagree with your thought process. I'm just saying his POV is flat wrong.

razorwire77
09-25-2011, 02:32 PM
Yeah, I'm not really sure why they don't have some sort of a jumbo wild Tebow package with Larsen, Willis and Tebow. At this point, it does seem like stubbornness on Fox's part. Hell, at least use him as a decoy.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-25-2011, 02:33 PM
I'd love some of the good football minds on this board to chime in and let me know if theres a GOOD FOOTBALL REASON for this? Cause i sure as **** can't think of one.

Crow
09-26-2011, 07:33 AM
Is it political reasons? Is it cause youre stubborn, coach Fox? We lost both our games this year because we couldnt score from the goal line (well its not the sole reason, but its a reason). If you had a 6'3 250 FB that had an uncanny knack for finding inches near the goal line, you'd play him without a second thought. Ours just happens to play QB.


That's the problem in a nutshell. Someone drafted a FB to play QB and now the new regime has to deal with it.

Campbell played a helluvalot better once the fan's (me included) personal lord and savior Gradkowski was out of the picture. The same might happen for Orton once the FB is no longer in the conversation.

jhns
09-26-2011, 07:39 AM
Judging by the way the Oline responded to the cheap shot on Orton, they must like the guy. Maybe Fox feels that if he plays Tebow it would split the lockerroom, kind of the way the Cutler fiasco did?

You know what will really split the locker room? Losing all the time while not using the resources that everyone knows would help. Do you think the team will believe in Fox if Tebow starts here, or somewhere else, later and proves his last three games weren't a fluke? I don't see this giving away games without a fight as a good way to keep a happy locker room...

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 07:43 AM
I'd love some of the good football minds on this board to chime in and let me know if theres a GOOD FOOTBALL REASON for this? Cause i sure as **** can't think of one.

None.

If the coaches don't feel he can do a better job executing the offense than what Orton is doing, then maybe we should've hired coaches that can do a better job developing and preparing these guys, because clearly from what we've seen, the competition isn't steep.

Dedhed
09-26-2011, 08:00 AM
Judging by the way the Oline responded to the cheap shot on Orton, they must like the guy. Maybe Fox feels that if he plays Tebow it would split the lockerroom, kind of the way the Cutler fiasco did?

I actually think it's the opposite. I think there is a good portion of the locker room that knows that Tebow gives them a better chance to win ball games.

Any OL is going to respond like that to a cheap shot on their QB, and if you watch the Chargers game last year the players were extremely quick to come to Tebow's aid and back him up.

I think it's very suspicious that any time there is a supportive quote from a bronco player, it's from Lloyd. No other player is outspoken in their support of Orton. There is no sense of urgency on the team, none of the heart and passion that was on display from the entire team in meaningless games with Tebow as the starter.

I think the silent locker room speaks volumes, and I think the players are feeling the same sense to resignation about Orton's inabilities that a good portion of the fan base is feeling.

HAT
09-26-2011, 08:07 AM
John Fox = Bad Hire.......Period.

Dedhed
09-26-2011, 08:09 AM
None.

If the coaches don't feel he can do a better job executing the offense than what Orton is doing, then maybe we should've hired coaches that can do a better job developing and preparing these guys, because clearly from what we've seen, the competition isn't steep.

There are major concerns being raised regarding the new regime. I'm not ready to sell them down the river entirely, but there is a lot to be worried about.

They say (and I'm paraphrasing here) "We're not going to let outside opinions determine who we play", but it seems pretty clear that's exactly what they're doing.

They say they're not going to let the fans determine that Orton should be on the bench, but it seems clear that there is a deliberate effort to avoid Tebow entirely. I think that is a direct, spiteful, response to the calls for Tebow.

So they're really doing exactly what they said they wouldn't do. They're letting the outside world dictate who's on the field. Instead of caving to fan sentiment they're taking a spiteful stance and refusing to involve Tebow at all.

It's very worrisome to me that the regime is either too dumb to realize that Tebow was insanely successful in short goal to go situations (like 100% successful) or they're too stubborn and spiteful to do what is actually in the best interest of the team.

Dedhed
09-26-2011, 08:13 AM
John Fox = Bad Hire.......Period.

There are serious concerns. I'm really starting to wish that we'd gone with Fewell. He would have brought the same defense first mentality, but perhaps not the pigheaded reliance on what he's always done whether it works or not.

broncocalijohn
09-26-2011, 08:17 AM
I think he is afraid of adding to the QB controversy...

I think most Tebowites would calm down if Fox at least put Tebow in when we are inside the 5 or 10 yardline. Such a no brainer. I can't imagine most Orton supporters wouldnt see the benefit of his specialty. We score 7 and both get the credit. Too bad Fox has become like McDaniels in that department. Blows me away again.

Kaylore
09-26-2011, 08:49 AM
I think he is afraid of adding to the QB controversy...

Here's my problem with this line of thinking. They say they are protecting Orton's ego and letting him be the QB the whole game. I'm sorry, but Orton is gone after the season so WHO CARES? Putting Tebow in in the redzone would help win games. Fox should be more worried about HIS future not Orton's.

Dedhed
09-26-2011, 08:52 AM
Why not slap #25 on Tebow and move him to his true position, RB. All is solved.

Nurrr..

bendog
09-26-2011, 08:56 AM
There's no Tebow package because there isn't gonna be one. There's a redzone package. A mobile qb is obviously an advantage. I'm still pissed at R66v6 over the Giants superbowl for not rolling Elway out near the end of the first half deep in Giants territory and ending up with a FG after our piss poor oline couldn't get it done. But they want the qb to take a snap under center and hand off to the running back and run between the tackles. That's the base play of ANY nfl offense in the redzone. NOT the shotgun. Tebow's gonna play this year, and we'll see if he can do it.

Bronco Yoda
09-26-2011, 09:00 AM
Ever witness someone hit a patch of black ice and lose traction?

Then the inevitable OVER-STEER... back and forth....back and forth.... as the veering s-patterns get larger and larger....

bendog
09-26-2011, 09:02 AM
Ever witness someone hit a patch of black ice and lose traction?

Then the inevitable OVER-STEER... back and forth....back and forth.... as the veering s-patterns get larger and larger....

Jesus take the wheel (-:

Br0nc0Buster
09-26-2011, 09:06 AM
The coaches werent gonna drop Orton after a couple games after spending all offseason with him taking the first team reps
They sort of made their bed

That said I dont know if Fox is partial to veteran qbs, or guys typical drop back passers
But I do trust Elway when it comes to qbs, he can overrule Fox, and I dont think he is gonna put up with ****ty qb play even if Fox is willing to for very long

If Orton keeps this up I look toward the bye week for a possible change
I understand not dumping the starter after 3 games, but if the bye is over and he is still starting I will be very dissapointed

Dr. Broncenstein
09-26-2011, 09:09 AM
Jesus take the wheel (-:

I loled.

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 09:21 AM
Here's my problem with this line of thinking. They say they are protecting Orton's ego and letting him be the QB the whole game. I'm sorry, but Orton is gone after the season so WHO CARES? Putting Tebow in in the redzone would help win games. Fox should be more worried about HIS future not Orton's.

Brandon Lloyd ???

Broncos4Life
09-26-2011, 09:42 AM
The coaches werent gonna drop Orton after a couple games after spending all offseason with him taking the first team reps
They sort of made their bed

That said I dont know if Fox is partial to veteran qbs, or guys typical drop back passers
But I do trust Elway when it comes to qbs, he can overrule Fox, and I dont think he is gonna put up with ****ty qb play even if Fox is willing to for very long

If Orton keeps this up I look toward the bye week for a possible change
I understand not dumping the starter after 3 games, but if the bye is over and he is still starting I will be very dissapointed

All I know is that when the boos start and fans stop showing up the FO will have no choice.......

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 09:44 AM
Lot's of teams do this though, Oakland do it with Bush and McFadden for instance.

We would do that with Moreno and Mcgahee if all had gone to plan.

Bronco Yoda
09-26-2011, 09:45 AM
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/56445/56445,1200299178,1/stock-photo-traffic-sign-warning-car-out-of-control-8529145.jpg

Should have known it was going to be a bumpy ride when Bowlen slapped this logo on the side of the helmets.

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 09:48 AM
My guess would be time constraint. We had a very short offseason, we had to implement the offense under new coaches and I don't think they felt they could afford to take the time to implement a goal line package with Tebow in the short offseason we had.

Dr. Broncenstein
09-26-2011, 09:50 AM
My guess would be time constraint. We had a very short offseason, we had to implement the offense under new coaches and I don't think they felt they could afford to take the time to implement a goal line package with Tebow in the short offseason we had.

It's rocket surgery.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-26-2011, 10:28 AM
My guess would be time constraint. We had a very short offseason, we had to implement the offense under new coaches and I don't think they felt they could afford to take the time to implement a goal line package with Tebow in the short offseason we had.

How hard is lining up behind ten guys and running straight forward. This worked every time last year.

jhns
09-26-2011, 10:31 AM
My guess would be time constraint. We had a very short offseason, we had to implement the offense under new coaches and I don't think they felt they could afford to take the time to implement a goal line package with Tebow in the short offseason we had.

We have mostly the same players and the same coordinator from last season...

Dr. Broncenstein
09-26-2011, 10:34 AM
How hard is lining up behind ten guys and running straight forward. This worked every time last year.

Because you occasionally sneak someone out to give Tebow a receiving option. Gives him the option to throw or run, based upon his reads. Just trying to wrap my mind around the concept makes my head feel like it's going to asplode. Not enough time in the day to work on such complex problems.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 10:53 AM
I don't have a clue.

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 11:25 AM
How hard is lining up behind ten guys and running straight forward. This worked every time last year.

We have replaced 2 of 3 TEs, the RT and RB (so about 40% of the package), last year we ran down the middle less than half the time from that formation, you need between 5 and 10 plays, FB handoff, RB handoff, QB keeper, RB draw, RB pitch, playfake passes and QB draw and the TE passes with the jump pass. To put that in properly you are probably looking at a full day of training camp with 2 a days, to cycle through all the possible groupings of TEs and RBs, plus the walkthroughs needed every week to keep it up.

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 11:25 AM
It's rocket surgery.

Clearly it is neuro science.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-26-2011, 11:27 AM
We have replaced 2 of 3 TEs, the RT and RB (so about 40% of the package), last year we ran down the middle less than half the time from that formation, you need between 5 and 10 plays, FB handoff, RB handoff, QB keeper, RB draw, RB pitch, playfake passes and QB draw and the TE passes with the jump pass. To put that in properly you are probably looking at a full day of training camp with 2 a days, to cycle through all the possible groupings of TEs and RBs, plus the walkthroughs needed every week to keep it up.

I'm sorry, you're making it sound tons more complicated than it is. The reason they havent done it has zero to do with preparation, I'm quite certain of that. This is some dumbass stubbornness on the head coach's part.

mile7high7
09-26-2011, 11:30 AM
Swapping out Orton for Tebow at the Goal Line is no different than Ray Rice/McGahee, or Chris Johnson/Lendale, or dozens of such situational swaps. Of course Rice, and CJ, and all the other backs want to run it into the GL, but you play your strengths, and if a player is better at one specific situation, than let him play, and damn the excuses.

ChrisToker
09-26-2011, 11:35 AM
A lot of Panther fans were upset and frustrated by the way Fox coached over the years. Stubborn is not going to win us games....

But remember, he said Denver was going to run the most sophisticated running game in the league. More like most predictable...

The fans were frustrated due to lack of talent on field not his coaching. If you think Bowlen is a cheapass Jerry Richardson has historically been one of the cheapest owners. Hard to put up W's when the ppl you draft are too good and the boss doesn't want to pay them to stick around.

bendog
09-26-2011, 11:42 AM
The fans were frustrated due to lack of talent on field not his coaching. If you think Bowlen is a cheapass Jerry Richardson has historically been one of the cheapest owners. Hard to put up W's when the ppl you draft are too good and the boss doesn't want to pay them to stick around.

Richardson is a terrible owner, but a good number of Car fans didn't like Fox. He's old school "defense wins championships." He uses dual tailbacks and his goal is to wear down the defense. His passing game is pretty vanilla, using clear out routes and then throwing underneath. He'll take a few shots downfield just to keep defenses honest (steve smith). His defense stuffs the run.

But the division had Sean Payton's bombs away, and Vick and then Ryan

Interesting how Elway hired a guy who wants to run the ball down the defenses throat with a qb who plays mainly from the pocket.

gyldenlove
09-26-2011, 12:09 PM
I'm sorry, you're making it sound tons more complicated than it is. The reason they havent done it has zero to do with preparation, I'm quite certain of that. This is some dumbass stubbornness on the head coach's part.

That is how complicated it is, we ran a different play almost every time we ran the Tebow goal-line package last year. We ran with stretch to the right and the lead blocker in the left C gap, we ran with the lead blocker setting the edge and keeping it to the outside both with and without faking the handoff, we used the play action pass down the middle to the back of the end zone, we used the FB to run into the flat on a pass route - and those are things people have seen before, you want to add at least a couple of new plays to that list.

Bronco Yoda
09-26-2011, 12:21 PM
Ok, so we're going to be stuck in this rebound thing for awhile now.... it could be worse though, remember that one crazy night with McPsycho who left really early the next morning with our wallet, the change from the junk drawer ...and even the toothbrush. Who takes a toothbrush anyway?

When do we move on to the slutty one with all the naughty guilty pleasures.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-26-2011, 12:23 PM
That is how complicated it is, we ran a different play almost every time we ran the Tebow goal-line package last year. We ran with stretch to the right and the lead blocker in the left C gap, we ran with the lead blocker setting the edge and keeping it to the outside both with and without faking the handoff, we used the play action pass down the middle to the back of the end zone, we used the FB to run into the flat on a pass route - and those are things people have seen before, you want to add at least a couple of new plays to that list.

Nothing they are doing is all that new. It's not like they all of the sudden all need to learn how to punt. But even if this were true, I'd prefer Tim just taking a direct snap and running into the line. I know this will still be more effective than what they were doing. I still dont think any of this is brain surgery and I'm sure this is not the reason they arent doing it.

Cito Pelon
09-26-2011, 12:30 PM
Clearly it is neuro science.

Nero science, bordering on Caligula.

Jetmeck
09-26-2011, 12:33 PM
I don't care if this is a tired argument. I'm saying it anyway. Sue me. Well, with a twist.

If you think Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win as a starting QB, FINE, I don't necessarily agree, but I'll trust the coach's football expertise over mine.

Since the retirement of Davis, goal line offense has been the Broncos achilles heel. Last year, when McD implemented the Tebow goalline offense, the problems disappeared over night. OVER NIGHT. Not including the games he started, i dont even recall a SINGLE PLAY that didnt go for a TD out of that jumbo goal line package. There's a lot of film and a lot of proof that its incredibly effective and that Tim Tebow is a top 3 goal line threat in the league, if not the absolute best at it (he was great at FLA too).

John Fox gives us a lot of BS about "we play so and so cuz so and so gives us the best chance to win." So, riddle me this...why not play Tebow at the goal line when, clearly, he's, BY FAR, the best Bronco option at the goal line? 1st and 5 at the goal line? orton shouldnt be on the ****ing field.

Is it political reasons? Is it cause youre stubborn, coach Fox? We lost both our games this year because we couldnt score from the goal line (well its not the sole reason, but its a reason). If you had a 6'3 250 FB that had an uncanny knack for finding inches near the goal line, you'd play him without a second thought. Ours just happens to play QB.

I'm sorry, this is a fireable offense to me. You're purposely keeping an amazing option on the bench because you don't want to "make waves." Hey John Fox, if the Broncos were 3-0 right now, Bronco Nation would be incredibly happy and would NOT question your decisions. But because you are stubborn, we're 1-2 and, ironically, your getting exactly what you're trying to avoid.

AWESOME POST !

Jetmeck
09-26-2011, 12:35 PM
Then he should be fired. Kyle Orton makes a lot of money, I don't give a **** about his feelings.

MAKES A LOT MORE than he should be. If any of us performed the way he does we'd be fired. He is a joke costing us games. Timmy would have scored at the goal line yesterday. I'd bet my life on it.
This is how strongly I feel and Fox needs to get with the program or he won't be coach for long...!

Play2win
09-26-2011, 12:40 PM
I wonder if Rick Dennison would be playing Tebow.

Lestat
09-26-2011, 01:22 PM
Fox cannot play Tebow until he's absolutely ready to go. if Tebow struggles it will look very bad because he will have to be yanked.
the backlash on that would be way too much for the FO & staff to handle in the first season of a new regime. if we're 3-6 at some point then i think you let Tebow run the O to see if you have to go grab a QB next season.

DrFate
09-26-2011, 01:26 PM
if we're 3-6 at some point

3-6 is wishful thinking at this point

jhns
09-26-2011, 01:28 PM
Fox cannot play Tebow until he's absolutely ready to go. if Tebow struggles it will look very bad because he will have to be yanked.
the backlash on that would be way too much for the FO & staff to handle in the first season of a new regime. if we're 3-6 at some point then i think you let Tebow run the O to see if you have to go grab a QB next season.

Why would he have to be yanked? Are we worried about having one of the worst offenses in the league? You realize we already do, right?

DrFate
09-26-2011, 01:31 PM
Why would he have to be yanked? Are we worried about having one of the worst offenses in the league? You realize we already do, right?

I can't imagine what Tebow would have to do to be pulled based on the leash Orton has...

Lestat
09-26-2011, 01:32 PM
worst case scenario, Tebow comes in and the entire team plays worse(i already said worst case scenario). then he would have to be yanked and that would be a PR nightmare of epic proportions.

i doubt that would happen but if you unleash Tebowmania you had better be sure you're putting him in the position to succeed and giving him every chance to be a winner.
if you throw him out there and he fails it'll be pure hell for almost every fan.

jhns
09-26-2011, 01:33 PM
I can't imagine what Tebow would have to do to be pulled based on the leash Orton has...

I can't imagine you actually read that guys post. I don't know what you are saying but this is what I responded to.

" Fox cannot play Tebow until he's absolutely ready to go. if Tebow struggles it will look very bad because he will haveto beyanked."

TheReverend
09-26-2011, 01:35 PM
worst case scenario, Tebow comes in and the entire team plays worse(i already said worst case scenario). then he would have to be yanked and that would be a PR nightmare of epic proportions.

i doubt that would happen but if you unleash Tebowmania you had better be sure you're putting him in the position to succeed and giving him every chance to be a winner.
if you throw him out there and he fails it'll be pure hell for almost every fan.

PR nightmare?

Why?

Then EVERYONE is on board with going after Luck/Barkley/Landry next year

SonOfLe-loLang
09-26-2011, 01:40 PM
Fox cannot play Tebow until he's absolutely ready to go. if Tebow struggles it will look very bad because he will have to be yanked.
the backlash on that would be way too much for the FO & staff to handle in the first season of a new regime. if we're 3-6 at some point then i think you let Tebow run the O to see if you have to go grab a QB next season.

He played goal line LAST YEAR with amazing success? WTF

Rock Chalk
09-26-2011, 01:40 PM
1) the brass doesn't want to do anything to flame the Tebow fires
2) he's not going to play Orton, have Orton get in the red zone, then pull him - it's like riding your #1 RB 80 yards down the field, only to have him trot off for some bruiser to get a the final 3 yards and six. It's a slap in the face.

(I'm not endorsing these sentiments, I simply believe them to be Foxes reasoning)

See what Mike Ditka did to Walter Payton in the Superbowl.

**** Ditka.

Lestat
09-26-2011, 01:42 PM
last year Tebow had the #1 jersey in the league before even playing a meaningful game. he led the Broncos to a decent finish in his starts last season. you have fans and some media people wanting to anoint him as the second coming. those who support him to the extreme feel he's not being given a fair shake.
by the same token you have other fans who want nothing to do with him, want him to fail and prove them right about him not being an NFL QB.

if he gets the starting nod and doesn't play as well as at Florida the supporters will come out in full force that he's being treated unfairly, the haters will demand his benching and if he gets labelled a bust the PR from that would be horrible.

i don't care either way but man alive it's hard to believe Tebow is so bad he can't out practice Orton.
but then again i kinda hate watching game manager QB's so i'm probably a bit biased against Orton.
PR nightmare?

Why?

Then EVERYONE is on board with going after Luck/Barkley/Landry next year

Jetmeck
09-26-2011, 01:47 PM
This isn't about somebody's feelings. If these overpaid athletes can't perform because their feelings are hurt then time to get a new profession. John Fox and Elway should be doing everything up to cheating (Bellicheck reference) to win.

Tebow proved he is a deadly goal line weapon and well Orton has proved he is chit in the red zone. Does more have to be said here Win games, **** their feelings.

This is borderline MCdUmbass stoopid chit not playing our best player at the
goal line. Come on John, both Johns.....I thought you were smarter than this ????

Lestat
09-26-2011, 01:47 PM
yeah but you're talking about a 2nd year QB in a brand new offense with a new scheme & lack of a off season to fully pick it up.

in theory he can't do any worse than Orton but if you go all in with Tebow then it has to be to fully maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses for right now.
if the switch is made you can't go back so if you make it then you better be sure.
He played goal line LAST YEAR with amazing success? WTF

BroncoInferno
09-26-2011, 01:54 PM
I said this a couple of weeks ago, but I think Fox may get stubborn and dig his heels in on the QB situation from fear of being perceived as caving into pressure from the fanbase. The fact that he isn't using some kind of goal line package with Tebow despite the evidence from last season that such packages are highly effective is pretty strong evidence that this may be the case. Even if Orton gets benched in the coming weeks, it isn't a given that Tebow gets the nod. If John Clayton has it right (not a gimme, granted), Quinn is the #2. You'd have to figure if they turned to him as the starter, they'd give him at least three or four weeks before tossing him on the trash heap. If my guess is correct, Fox won't turn to Tebow except as a last resort. We'll see, I guess.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-26-2011, 02:12 PM
yeah but you're talking about a 2nd year QB in a brand new offense with a new scheme & lack of a off season to fully pick it up.

in theory he can't do any worse than Orton but if you go all in with Tebow then it has to be to fully maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses for right now.
if the switch is made you can't go back so if you make it then you better be sure.

What brand new offense is this? Plus, IM TALKING ABOUT GOAL LINE. Ya know, football isn't always complicated. Im not saying go all in with tebow, im saying play him on the ****ing goaline

DenverBroncosJM
09-26-2011, 02:15 PM
I figured it out last night after Rivers **** the bed in Fantasy Land

John Fox has Orton and Mcghee as his starting QB and RB.



All kidding aside, I think the fans (myself included) have actually made it harder for them to start Tebow or a GL package because if they did it now the media would spin it that the fans decided the starting QB. I hope thats the case because nothing else makes sense.

Maximus
09-26-2011, 03:12 PM
That's the problem in a nutshell. Someone drafted a FB to play QB and now the new regime has to deal with it.

Campbell played a helluvalot better once the fan's (me included) personal lord and savior Gradkowski was out of the picture. The same might happen for Orton once the FB is no longer in the conversation.

These are donkey fans Crow! They only read hoof prints in donkey manure!! They really have the situation twisted.. Skipping over Quinn for a FB! It's interesting to see how many think this kid would score everytime in Redzone. The kid is a gimmick that is probably already solved from the 3 games of footage that everyone is harping on.

I'm sure that the same people who bring up the 3 games and the QB rating will now say other teams don't have enough footage to scheme for his Madden 12 abilities... but they have enough knowledge to project his abilities from the 3 games... Popcorn anyone?

Bronx33
09-26-2011, 05:45 PM
cram something square up your a** max.

El Jué
09-26-2011, 05:54 PM
Until Broncos fans who would like to see Tebow play find a way to cost Mr. Bowlen more money than he's willing to lose, I don't think the organization should care what outsiders think.

Powderaddict
09-26-2011, 06:09 PM
Tebow's package is long overdue to be used.

When you have a package that is so powerful, so good at scoring, you need to whip that bad boy out from time to time and put it on display.

It just seems like such a waste for Tebow's package to just sit there, not getting the action it could be getting.

ghostofjosh
09-26-2011, 06:26 PM
Dont worry a couple more of these and orton will be on the bench