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Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 12:45 PM
Yo, dude (Or anyone else with a in-depth understanding of football), have you ever thought of breaking down Broncos film like this?

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MdUIYQsYMzA?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="315" width="560"></object>

That would be so cool. That's what I really want, I want to learn what makes these players good or bad. I'm tired of hearing everyone's opinions on Timmy and Orton and Javaris Moss. I'd really much rather learn the game of football so I can decide for myself who's good and who's not. How do I learn?

epicSocialism4tw
09-22-2011, 01:03 PM
<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/loWXMtjUZWM?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/loWXMtjUZWM?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 01:07 PM
How'd you know my favorite song?

crush17
09-22-2011, 01:07 PM
Start by reading some of the articles posted on www.itsalloverfatman.com under the "fat camp" series.

New one just posted today is very informative. :)

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 01:08 PM
Thanks crush, I'll check it out.

Edit: Awesome bro, exactly the type of stuff I'm looking for. Thanks.

SouthStndJunkie
09-22-2011, 01:08 PM
Pat Kirwan wrote a nice and easy to understand book on the subject:

http://www.patkirwan.com/

You can get the book a lot cheaper at Amazon.com.

BowlenBall
09-22-2011, 01:10 PM
You are the new student... come closer....

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WCyJRXvPNRo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 01:11 PM
Read books, play it, or volunteer to help coach locally. Preferably all 3 options.

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 01:11 PM
Pat Kirwan wrote a nice and easy to understand book on the subject:

http://www.patkirwan.com/

You can get the book a lot cheaper at Amazon.com.

I think I'll pick it up. I was at Barnes & Noble looking for books like this and their selection was pretty slim.

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 01:11 PM
You are the new student... come closer....

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WCyJRXvPNRo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hilarious!

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 01:12 PM
Read books, play it, or volunteer to help coach locally. Preferably all 3 options.

That would be a blast.

I've always wanted to be behind the whistle for a two-a-day instead of running till I puke.

DomCasual
09-22-2011, 01:30 PM
That would be a blast.

I've always wanted to be behind the whistle for a two-a-day instead of running till I puke.

I'm the same way. My problem is that every time I try, they find out I'm way too good an athlete to be on the other side of the whistle. It sucks, because I'm smarter than the coaches. But at the end of the day, I guess they feel that my kind of athleticism can't be coached.

I'm basically a conundrum wrapped in an enigma.

Signed,

BroncoWarrior

Blueflame
09-22-2011, 01:53 PM
Read books, play it, or volunteer to help coach locally. Preferably all 3 options.

This can't be right; I was informed here on the Mane that no one who works for ESPN (including all those former NFL players) knows anywhere near as much about Broncos football as we OM posters do. :P

OABB
09-22-2011, 01:56 PM
This can't be right; I was informed here on the Mane that no one who works for ESPN (including all those former NFL players) knows anywhere near as much about Broncos football as we OM posters do. :P

THey may know alot, but just like any cable "news" show there is a focus on stories that will draw more attention and are tabloid in nature.

ESPN rarely does a film breakdown anymore.

Playbook on nfln is as close as I have seen and I don't think anyone has ever ragged on those stories. In fact, objective reporting would be great.

Now, when they get in an OP/ED format and go fox news style, we all have a problem with that.

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 02:02 PM
Btw, stopped watching that video by the time the first play was up.

Not a cover 3 in any way shape or form lol

broncosteven
09-22-2011, 02:13 PM
I would give the OM podcasts a listen, the guys put in a lot of time to do it and it is very well done.

broncocalijohn
09-22-2011, 02:15 PM
I'm the same way. My problem is that every time I try, they find out I'm way too good an athlete to be on the other side of the whistle. It sucks, because I'm smarter than the coaches. But at the end of the day, I guess they feel that my kind of athleticism can't be coached.

I'm basically a conundrum wrapped in an enigma.

Signed,

BroncoWarrior

LOL! As I was reading this, I was ready to rep you stating, "Thank you Bronco Warrior" then I saw you had him pegged perfectly. Funny how someone here for such a short time makes a great mark on the Mane for years later. Those that don't know B.W. (David Webb), go back to find some threads. Pure enjoyment. Just don't plagerize him.

mkporter
09-22-2011, 02:42 PM
Btw, stopped watching that video by the time the first play was up.

Not a cover 3 in any way shape or form lol

You've got a captive audience interested in talking about the finer points of football here, man. Shine some light for us. This is exactly the kind of stuff that is interesting to talk about. Why is this not cover 3? What more does it take? It looked to me that the LCB and RCB were dropping back to their deep thirds, and Moore was sitting in the deep middle(offscreen). What am I missing? I would honestly love to know.

I love that there are guys out there trying to put together content like this. It does wonders to open up the discussion, even if they have some inaccuracies, or you disagree.

Or maybe we could just go back to the usual posting memes and yelling.

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 02:48 PM
Btw, stopped watching that video by the time the first play was up.

Not a cover 3 in any way shape or form lol

Ya, not me. I was like, "uh huh, uh huh... definitely a cover 3."

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 02:49 PM
I would give the OM podcasts a listen, the guys put in a lot of time to do it and it is very well done.

Listened to the first, I'll go back and listen to the others.

DomCasual
09-22-2011, 02:53 PM
LOL! As I was reading this, I was ready to rep you stating, "Thank you Bronco Warrior" then I saw you had him pegged perfectly. Funny how someone here for such a short time makes a great mark on the Mane for years later. Those that don't know B.W. (David Webb), go back to find some threads. Pure enjoyment. Just don't plagerize him.

I had no idea that was his name until you mentioned it the other day. Did he get banned from here, or did he leave voluntarily? If he was banned, I think we should start a campaign to lift the ban. He was awesome - a star that burned bright and hot.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0kEDa6bXnA8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

crawdad
09-22-2011, 02:54 PM
Btw, stopped watching that video by the time the first play was up.

Not a cover 3 in any way shape or form lol

Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do.

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 02:55 PM
Ya, not me. I was like, "uh huh, uh huh... definitely a cover 3."

Simple and basic tip on coverages:

The cover ___ # indicates how many are deep.

Cover 0 = 0
Cover 1 = 1
Cover 2 = 2
etc

Watch the safeties and it's very easy. Promise. :kiss:

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 03:20 PM
Simple and basic tip on coverages:

The cover ___ # indicates how many are deep.

Cover 0 = 0
Cover 1 = 1
Cover 2 = 2
etc

Watch the safeties and it's very easy. Promise. :kiss:

Apparently this is an inverted cover 3, at least I think it is. It matches up pretty well with the analysis:

http://smartfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/cover3.gif

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 03:29 PM
Apparently this is an inverted cover 3, at least I think it is. It matches up pretty well with the analysis:

http://smartfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/cover3.gif

No... that's just a cover 3. In a high school 52 formation no less... with the SS playing almost a SLB so effectively 53.

Inverted coverage means the safeties are closer to the LOS while the corners back off. That's all. Nothing to do with responsibilities, etc.

So in the video when he says "in an inverted cover 3 with a safety deep" it's actually an oxymoron and another reason of why I clicked out of that piece of **** faster than you can get an erection to Anna Kournikova

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 03:32 PM
No... that's just a cover 3. In a high school 52 formation no less... with the SS playing almost a SLB so effectively 53.

Inverted coverage means the safeties are closer to the LOS while the corners back off. That's all. Nothing to do with responsibilities, etc.

So in the video when he says "in an inverted cover 3 with a safety deep" it's actually an oxymoron and another reason of why I clicked out of that piece of **** faster than you can get an erection to Anna Kournikova

That's fast.

I see, so since the FS was deep it wasn't inverted since he'd have to up on the LOS. Thanks.

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 03:34 PM
That's fast.

I see, so since the FS was deep it wasn't inverted since he'd have to up on the LOS. Thanks.

3/4 of your secondary players are getting deep in a cover 3.

Inverting that would be retarded.

Cover 2s are much more commonly inverted for run support even in the NFL level.

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 03:35 PM
3/4 of your secondary players are getting deep in a cover 3.

Inverting that would be retarded.

Cover 2s are much more commonly inverted for run support even in the NFL level.

You'd have to have corners you trust to put them both out on an island like that. I wonder if the Jets run that formation.

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 03:41 PM
You'd have to have corners you trust to put them both out on an island like that. I wonder if the Jets run that formation.

A deep half isnt nearly as hard as man coverage.

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 03:48 PM
A deep half isnt nearly as hard as man coverage.

Yeah... totally. Definitely.

I'm going to go read that book.

broncosteven
09-22-2011, 04:00 PM
... faster than you can get an erection to Anna Kournikova

mmmmmmmmmmmm Anna Kournikova

What ever happened to Anna Kournikova?

OABB
09-22-2011, 04:02 PM
A deep half isnt nearly as hard as man coverage.

this just sounds dirty, but I'm not sure why.

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 04:09 PM
mmmmmmmmmmmm Anna Kournikova

What ever happened to Anna Kournikova?

She's a trainer on biggest loser now. Forgot she existed until the premier.


Boner restored.

mkporter
09-22-2011, 05:46 PM
Simple and basic tip on coverages:

The cover ___ # indicates how many are deep.

Cover 0 = 0
Cover 1 = 1
Cover 2 = 2
etc

Watch the safeties and it's very easy. Promise. :kiss:

Help a guy out here, Rev. Didn't we have three deep on that play? I think Moore was off the screen.

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 05:50 PM
Help a guy out here, Rev. Didn't we have three deep on that play? I think Moore was off the screen.

I think he's saying that it was a cover 3 (FS and 2 corners), but it wasn't inverted because the FS was deep and not on the line. The analysis guy said it was an inverted cover 3. I think it depends on where the corners' zone responsibility was.

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 05:50 PM
Help a guy out here, Rev. Didn't we have three deep on that play? I think Moore was off the screen.

No. We have 1 deep on that play. Man under 1 deep, or "cover 1".

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 05:50 PM
I think he's saying that it was a cover 3 (FS and 2 corners), but it wasn't inverted because the FS was deep and not on the line. The analysis guy said it was an inverted cover 3.

No. Absolutely not what I'm saying. :kiss:

Houshyamama
09-22-2011, 05:52 PM
No. Absolutely not what I'm saying. :kiss:

God damn it.

McDman
09-22-2011, 05:56 PM
I'm the same way. My problem is that every time I try, they find out I'm way too good an athlete to be on the other side of the whistle. It sucks, because I'm smarter than the coaches. But at the end of the day, I guess they feel that my kind of athleticism can't be coached.

I'm basically a conundrum wrapped in an enigma.

Signed,

BroncoWarrior

Hahahahaha, when I first started reading your post I was like who the **** is this guy?

mkporter
09-22-2011, 06:00 PM
No. We have 1 deep on that play. Man under 1 deep, or "cover 1".

When I watch the play, I see Vaughn at the top, and he looks like he's dropping back into the deep third. Is he just playing way off in his man responsibility?

brncs_fan
09-22-2011, 07:05 PM
In before Med.

TheReverend
09-22-2011, 07:15 PM
When I watch the play, I see Vaughn at the top, and he looks like he's dropping back into the deep third. Is he just playing way off in his man responsibility?

Yes

SoCalBronco
09-22-2011, 09:55 PM
Rev has talked about some defensive concepts, I'll talk about offensive concepts, most specifically in the passing game.

There are alot of passing plays available, but most plays can be boiled down to a few different concepts even though they might look different. The most common concepts that involve either 2 recievers or 3 recievers involved in a common pattern are HI-LO STRETCH, HORIZONTAL STRETCH, INDIVIDUAL OPTION CONCEPT, RUB/PICK CONCEPT OR COMBINATION (the best plays involve a combination of at least two different concepts melded into one play so that if the defense takes away one concept, it will have to deal with another).

In this post, I will discuss a few examples of HI-LO and HORIZONTAL stretches. In another post, I will illustrate the PICK/RUB (this is pretty common knowledge, creating picks vs. man to man), OPTION concepts, and later I will show you some of the effective COMBO concepts in football where two or three of these concepts are fused into one play.

For now, we will just focus on HI-LO and HORIZONTAL examples.

1. HI-LO CONCEPT- The offense isolates a particular defender, usually against a zone defense and works him "hi-lo" with an offensive target on top and an offensive target on the bottom, so that wherever the player goes, he is wrong.

This is the most common version of the HI-LO concept, its a pass that has been around since the beginning of time, it is often referred to as "Smash", a two man combination with a Corner and a Hitch. The QB reads the cornerback, if he sits with the hitch, throw the corner and vice versa:

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/378823/smash_gif.png

Smash is most effective against man to man coverage and also the 2 deep zone. Why? Because your read will lead you to the corner route which is the big gainer here. In man, the corner will stick with the hitch. In a traditional 2 deep, he'll sit because he has flat responsibility, so the corner route is still open. This concept is weaker against the three deep (3 deep defenders, 4 underneath defenders), since the CB is retreating, so you only get the hitch route and if the flat defender recognizes the route fast enough he could get out to take away the hitch. The modern version of Cover 2, which is a a matchup-zone, has also eliminated the basic 2 man Smash combo as well, because the corner no longer absolutely plays the flat, but rather works in tandem with the OLB and S to read the patterns and react accordingly depending on who is going where.

Here is an illustration of the traditional (non-matchup zone) Cover 2 (as you can see, it is weak vs. Smash because there is that "squirrel hole" behind the CB in the outside deep third outside of the half field safety:

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/451949/cover2.gif

There are defenses which can take away the basic "Smash" concept. For instance, consider Cover 3 Cloud, one of the many forms of a three deep four underneath zone. You'll notice that if the offense ran "Smash" against this defense on the two WR side, to the side they were rolling to, there would be no one open since the CB sits with the hitch and if the QB threw the corner on top, he'd be throwing into a safety since its no longer a half field safety but rather a deep outside third safety:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZAJiVWpiro8/TQD4uoXrOCI/AAAAAAAAADk/yvdtazy4ipk/s400/Cover+3+Cloud.jpeg

The HI-LO principle is not limited to working the cornerback. Against the two deep zone, a poplular HI-LO variation created by Bill Walsh (and used alot by Holmgren on the Packers) was the "Texas" concept. In Cover 2, the deep middle area is open, but depending on how you play the MLB (Tampa, where he retreats to 15-18 yards, rather than 10-12 yards, to take away the deep middle hole that was otherwise present), the defense can take away that hole. In response, Walsh put together a HI-LO on the MLB with the TE Post and a FB Delay/Angle route. If the MLB dropped back too far in this coverage, you hit the Angle or "Texas" underneath him. If he didn't, you threw the Post on top of him. Ofcourse, if you got a different coverage, (say where there was a deep middle safety), then the HI-LO wouldn't work, but there were adjustments to "Texas" to take this into account:

Here is an illustration fo Texas and you can see how the Delay route and the Post route put the MLB in a bind in Cov 2:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRdGXUt3QLa5e7LIaksXGzeeC1Mm5e0z BG0pP2UZOeF3_eHcdZAjdzxd6n7

* If you want to read more about the Texas route in particular, there is an old article I co-authored (along with Jeremy Hillebrand) about 12 years ago that discussed Texas and some of its variations, that can be found here:

http://www.free-books.us/Diverse/596884/The-TEXAS-Concept-in-the-West-Coast-Offense

The HI-LO principle is also commonly used with the Dig and Shallow Cross combination against zone defenses. The Dig and Shallow combination is also good vs. man (because the Dig should come open right over the ball and the Shallow is also crossing into a void on the other side of the defense where the cornerback has been run off), but the HI-LO comes into play here vs. a zone. The zone LB's between the hashes are in a bind, if they drop too deep, you throw the shallow under, if they jump the shallow, throw the dig behind it. The next illustration shows this combo:

http://bruceeien.com/offense/selouisana/yshallow.gif

2. HORIZONTAL STRETCHES- We've discussed the HI-LO principle where your putting a guy above a defender and below a defender and reading that defender to determine who to throw to. Another type of "Stretch" on the defense is a "Horizontal stretch", where you aren't stretching them on top/bottom, but rather from side to side (east to west). Horizontal stretches do NOT have to be short passes, you can have a DEEP horizontal stretch concept. Against the 3 Deep Zone, a popular DEEP horizontal stretch is FOUR VERTICALS. Here, you are targetting the deep middle safety with two inside seam routes. He will generally react to one or the other (esp on a look-off) and depending on which route he reacts to, you throw the other one, since he's stretched SIDE TO SIDE. Against a two deep defense or a quarters defense, where there is NO middle safety, you this route is still another good illustration of a HORIZONTAL stretch because now you can stretch the hash safety side to side with the inside vertical and the outside (sideline) vertical, depending on whether he stays on the hash or cheats on the outside route. When you are facing a team that plays a coverage with no deep middle safety
( Cov 2, Cov 4, Cov 2 man), to accentuate the horizontal stretch on the half field safety, sometimes the inside vertical will "bend" the route inside, so that safety HAS to choose between staying on the hash and protecting against the bender or cheating to the sideline to defend the outside vertical. Here is an example of Four verticals:

http://firstoffthebus.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/diagram6_verticals.gif?w=400&h=225

Read: Middle of Field Closed, work middle safety with two inside verticals, Middle of Field Open, pick weakest safety and work outside vertical to inside vertical (with bender/post).

A popular version of the Horizontal stretch concept that is good vs. the 3 deep 4 underneath zone is a CURL and FLAT combination. This does NOT work against everything, its best designed against Cover 3. It stretches two underneath defenders to a side with three routes, a curl, flat and a middle curl. A triangular pattern is created underneath around the 2 underneath defenders and they have to give up one route if they are playing Cover 3. In the upper left hand corner you can see an illustration of Curl-Flat against a three deep four underneath. Notice how the two underneath defenders to each side are outnumbered 3 to 2 by the curl/flat and middle curl that stretches them from side to side:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/429376/Curl_Route_medium.GIF

SoCalBronco
09-22-2011, 10:36 PM
3. OPTION CONCEPT- The third concept I'll discuss is the OPTION concept. This can take many forms, but the basic idea is for an individual reciever, "I'm going somewhere the defense isn't". This is most classically illustrated by the old TE Option Route or HB Option route. At BYU in the 80s and 90s under Norm Chow and Lavell Edwards, they'd run the TE 8-10 yards, and have him read man/zone. If it was zone, he'd stick his foot in the ground and turn his butt away from the closest zone defender and sit down and show the QB his numbers. Against man, depending on whether the defender had insdie leverage or outside, at 8-10 yards, he'd break away from him inside or outside and keep running. Here is an illustration of individual option routes (TE and HB):

http://bruceeien.com/offense/chow/60.gif

If you look closer, you'll notice this is actually a COMBO concept because it melds individual option routes with a horizontal stretch (Comeback on the outside, Option route on the inside, against a zone defense where someone other than the corner has flat responsibility, you are stretching the flat defender horizontally), but I'm putting it up there just to illustrate the option idea.

Options can take many forms. In the old Run and Shoot, they'd give some players a three-way option, based on whether the defender was up or off and if he was off, whether he had inside or outside leverage. Consider the classic Run and Shoot "Choice" route. You'll notice there is a Three way break here, a fade, post or out. If the CB was playing up, they'd run the fade, if he was off and to the inside, the out, off and to the outside, the post, its another option principle (and the middle reciever on the trips side is also running an option route based on the FS):

http://bruceeien.com/offense/mouse/choice.gif

Another simple manifestation of this option principle of changing routes based on the defense, is a simple Middle of the Field Option route, where a reciever would read the deep middle of field between the hashes. If there was a deep single safety, he would run a curl/dig, if the deep middle was open, he would run a post (See TE's route here):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dj3CM-HrGik/TGWm0HOe0hI/AAAAAAAAAHc/2ARA6Y_-_ic/s320/base.gif

Option routes look the best on a blackboard because in theory, the offense is always right. That doesn't always work out, because it assumes both the QB and WR are reading the same thing, and the advent of matchup zones make it difficult to simply tell someone to "read man or zone", and runnign option routes based on the depth and angle of the corner is more difficult since a CB can be up and inside right at the snap but immediately retreat and play off and to the outside after the snap, creating confusion and hesitation in route running. Still, option concepts are very useful if you can create some clear, specific, proven ironclad rules for reading and reacting to ensure everyone is on the same page.

That's all for tonight. I'll get into PICK-RUB and COMBO's in a day or two (if people are interested, if not, let me know and I'll stop ranting).

hambone13
09-22-2011, 10:44 PM
3. OPTION CONCEPT- The third concept I'll discuss is the OPTION concept. This can take many forms, but the basic idea is for an individual reciever, "I'm going somewhere the defense isn't". This is most classically illustrated by the old TE Option Route or HB Option route. At BYU in the 80s and 90s under Norm Chow and Lavell Edwards, they'd run the TE 8-10 yards, and have him read man/zone. If it was zone, he'd stick his foot in the ground and turn his butt away from the closest zone defender and sit down and show the QB his numbers. Against man, depending on whether the defender had insdie leverage or outside, at 8-10 yards, he'd break away from him inside or outside and keep running. Here is an illustration of individual option routes (TE and HB):

http://bruceeien.com/offense/chow/60.gif

If you look closer, you'll notice this is actually a COMBO concept because it melds individual option routes with a horizontal stretch (Comeback on the outside, Option route on the inside, against a zone defense where someone other than the corner has flat responsibility, you are stretching the flat defender horizontally), but I'm putting it up there just to illustrate the option idea.

Options can take many forms. In the old Run and Shoot, they'd give some players a three-way option, based on whether the defender was up or off and if he was off, whether he had inside or outside leverage. Consider the classic Run and Shoot "Choice" route. You'll notice there is a Three way break here, a fade, post or out. If the CB was playing up, they'd run the fade, if he was off and to the inside, the out, off and to the outside, the post, its another option principle (and the middle reciever on the trips side is also running an option route based on the FS):

http://bruceeien.com/offense/mouse/choice.gif

Another simple manifestation of this option principle of changing routes based on the defense, is a simple Middle of the Field Option route, where a reciever would read the deep middle of field between the hashes. If there was a deep single safety, he would run a curl/dig, if the deep middle was open, he would run a post (See TE's route here):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dj3CM-HrGik/TGWm0HOe0hI/AAAAAAAAAHc/2ARA6Y_-_ic/s320/base.gif

Option routes look the best on a blackboard because in theory, the offense is always right. That doesn't always work out, because it assumes both the QB and WR are reading the same thing, and the advent of matchup zones make it difficult to simply tell someone to "read man or zone", and runnign option routes based on the depth and angle of the corner is more difficult since a CB can be up and inside right at the snap but immediately retreat and play off and to the outside after the snap, creating confusion and hesitation in route running. Still, option concepts are very useful if you can create some clear, specific, proven ironclad rules for reading and reacting to ensure everyone is on the same page.

That's all for tonight. I'll get into PICK-RUB and COMBO's in a day or two (if people are interested, if not, let me know and I'll stop ranting).

Good Stuff SoCal. This isn't ranting, it's the educational type of post the OP was was looking for. I haven't looked at that stuff in a long time! It's a nice refresher. Thanks a million for taking the time.

Lev Vyvanse
09-22-2011, 11:13 PM
We play a ****-ton of cover 1. I can't image we won't pay the piper in the end.

SoCalBronco
09-23-2011, 12:03 AM
Good Stuff SoCal. This isn't ranting, it's the educational type of post the OP was was looking for. I haven't looked at that stuff in a long time! It's a nice refresher. Thanks a million for taking the time.

No prob. I love football (especially the passing game). I'll try to get up some good stuff on the other concepts tomorrow with more illustrations and stuff.

Houshyamama
09-23-2011, 01:16 AM
Hey SoCalBronco, just saw your posts. I'll read them in the morning, thanks for taking the time!

tsiguy96
09-23-2011, 03:24 AM
this thread seems out of place...can we atleast blame xanders for something before continuing?

CEH
09-23-2011, 07:32 AM
this thread seems out of place...can we atleast blame xanders for something before continuing?

We did . The voice over guy was Xanders

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 07:54 AM
No. We have 1 deep on that play. Man under 1 deep, or "cover 1".

What does the "man under" refer to?

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 08:08 AM
What does the "man under" refer to?

It means everyone is playing man except the safeties who are in some kind of zone.

Ray Finkle
09-23-2011, 08:08 AM
No prob. I love football (especially the passing game). I'll try to get up some good stuff on the other concepts tomorrow with more illustrations and stuff.

and yet you don't see the gold mind that is Orton? ROFL!

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 08:10 AM
It means everyone is playing man except the safeties who are in some kind of zone.

I get the man part, but what is the "over/under" concept?

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 08:12 AM
I get the man part, but what is the "over/under" concept?

That's how the corner is playing his receiver. Over is the safe choice. He's between the receiver and goal line. Man under is trying to position the defender between the receiver and the ball. Obviously circumstances dictate when one is more appropriate but since defenses don't want to give up the big play, most play over.

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 08:23 AM
That's how the corner is playing his receiver. Over is the safe choice. He's between the receiver and goal line. Man under is trying to position the defender between the receiver in the ball. Obviously circumstances dictate when one is more appropriate but since defenses don't want to give up the big play, most play over.

Ah. So in "cover 2 man under" you'd have, say, two safeties deep and the corners playing aggressively to get "in front" of the wrs routes. Where with "cover two man over" the safeties would play roughly the same, but the CBs would be playing safe to basically keep the WR "in front" of him.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 08:25 AM
That's how the corner is playing his receiver. Over is the safe choice. He's between the receiver and goal line. Man under is trying to position the defender between the receiver in the ball. Obviously circumstances dictate when one is more appropriate but since defenses don't want to give up the big play, most play over.

Yes, very good, but USUALLY under is also indicative of playing bump instead of so loose off the LOS.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 08:30 AM
Ah. So in "cover 2 man under" you'd have, say, two safeties deep and the corners playing aggressively to get "in front" of the wrs routes. Where with "cover two man over" the safeties would play roughly the same, but the CBs would be playing safe to basically keep the WR "in front" of him.

No. You don't make a distinction for "over" because that's how you defend by the book basics.

That being said, most coaches I've known won't bother with the distinction and will let someone play to their comfort level and what they excel at. IE: Champ plays off now whether it's man or zone because he's great at it. If we had Revis at the same time, I'm certain they'd let him bump regardless of wtf Champ wanted to do lol.

Example:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gqADKwqcz9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

^ Champ effing up mentally, not Coyer.

gyldenlove
09-23-2011, 08:32 AM
I get the man part, but what is the "over/under" concept?

Some terminologies use on/off as alternatives, with on coverage being the CB typically 2-3 yards from LOS and off being 5-8 yards from LOS. In on coverage you can either have the CB jam at the line or they can simply redirect the WR to the inside/outside depending on the coverage.

In cover-2 defenses it is pretty common to have the CBs in on coverage close to the line so they can dictate wether the WR gets the inside or outside release, since the CB is going to be in a short zone with safeties over top.

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 08:39 AM
No. You don't make a distinction for "over" because that's how you defend by the book basics.So any man concept is "over" by default unless stated otherwise?

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 08:39 AM
Yes, very good, but USUALLY under is also indicative of playing bump instead of so loose off the LOS.

Of course. It will vary based on the down, distance, player they're defending and the defender.

OABB
09-23-2011, 08:44 AM
the thread that saved the mane....

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 08:49 AM
So any man concept is "over" by default unless stated otherwise?

Generally speaking. By the time the game rolls around, the PLAYER should know how he feels about who he's playing on. He should be able to read the formation, think about what he's seen, and decide if he wants to play off the guy to the outside, play right on him to beat him up, or sit a few yards off the inside and be ready to jump a slant or back pedal into a flat or pop hips and run with him.

So it's not really a coaching decision at that point, but more of a preparation thing.

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 09:00 AM
Generally speaking. By the time the game rolls around, the PLAYER should know how he feels about who he's playing on. He should be able to read the formation, think about what he's seen, and decide if he wants to play off the guy to the outside, play right on him to beat him up, or sit a few yards off the inside and be ready to jump a slant or back pedal into a flat or pop hips and run with him.

So it's not really a coaching decision at that point, but more of a preparation thing.

So in the game planning leading up to the week the coaches are covering what the cover 1, etc. is going to look like for the CBs?

With so much freedom how do you maintain coordination between the safeties, CBs, and the LBs? Are there more details the defensive calls that dictate what the LBs, DL is doing?

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 09:13 AM
So in the game planning leading up to the week the coaches are covering what the cover 1, etc. is going to look like for the CBs?

With so much freedom how do you maintain coordination between the safeties, CBs, and the LBs? Are there more details the defensive calls that dictate what the LBs, DL is doing?

the defense is still playing a scheme based on the defensive call. In other words they still line up according to the called play. Once in position they adjust to the offense using audibles, this is why having a guy like Bailey and Dawkins is so key to proper adjustments.

don't kid yourself, on almost every play some is NOT where he's supposed to be. This happens a lot of defense as there is confusion. However, this is where athletic ability compensates for lack of positioning.

Same with the offense, however, there's less "creativity" on offense so if a guy scews up his assignment it can be much more apparent.

gyldenlove
09-23-2011, 09:20 AM
So in the game planning leading up to the week the coaches are covering what the cover 1, etc. is going to look like for the CBs?

With so much freedom how do you maintain coordination between the safeties, CBs, and the LBs? Are there more details the defensive calls that dictate what the LBs, DL is doing?

Typically the MLB makes the calls on the front 7, the FS is responsible for making sure there are 11 men on the field and that substitutions are made.

In general the MLB makes the calls on the field and wears the earpiece. The defensive call typically deals with how the LBs and DLs should line up (typically if they should shift left or right or bunch) and if the LBs should shift left or right, in some formations one OLB will line up next to the DE with the MLB and other OLB both lining up behind the DL.

Stunts, delayed rushes, dropping into zone, contains are all specified by the call. This is one reason defensive players can take a while to adjust, NFL defensive systems are often much more complex than NCAA systems.

goldengopher1976
09-23-2011, 09:28 AM
Nothing to add since we are out of my depth (never played the game competitively unless you dare count intramural flag football--and believe me, I loved drawing up plays for it) but I would like to add a giant "THANK YOU" to those of you sharing the information. It may be out of my depth knowledge-wise, but not out of my depth of interest. So again, thank you!

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 09:30 AM
the defense is still playing a scheme based on the defensive call. In other words they still line up according to the called play. Once in position they adjust to the offense using audibles, this is why having a guy like Bailey and Dawkins is so key to proper adjustments.

don't kid yourself, on almost every play some is NOT where he's supposed to be. This happens a lot of defense as there is confusion. However, this is where athletic ability compensates for lack of positioning.

Same with the offense, however, there's less "creativity" on offense so if a guy scews up his assignment it can be much more apparent.

Oh I don't know. Sometimes offensive screw ups can be pretty epic. You see it in big situations where a receiver and QB aren't on the same page, a block is missed, or someone thinks its a run and not a pass like last game, and the result is an incomplete pass on third down, or worse, a turnover.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 09:49 AM
So in the game planning leading up to the week the coaches are covering what the cover 1, etc. is going to look like for the CBs?

With so much freedom how do you maintain coordination between the safeties, CBs, and the LBs? Are there more details the defensive calls that dictate what the LBs, DL is doing?

There isn't that much freedom in deciding how you want to play across from someone. You still have your basic job to do and you're still going to do it. This is more just the technique of getting that done. It'd be like expecting the DC to play call whether an end is going to rip, swim, bullrush etc

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 09:59 AM
There isn't that much freedom in deciding how you want to play across from someone. You still have your basic job to do and you're still going to do it. This is more just the technique of getting that done. It'd be like expecting the DC to play call whether an end is going to rip, swim, bullrush etc

And by basic are you pretty much referring to either covering your man, or covering your zone?

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 10:03 AM
Yeah. And its all the same once the ball is thrown. You have to break up the pass and how you do that isn't really as important so long as you either break up the pass or at least are in position to tackle the ball carrier. I would advise not to overthink these things. At the end of the day its more execution than scheme. On paper, if everyone executes then any scheme will work.

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Yeah. And its all the same once the ball is thrown. You have to break up the pass and how you do that isn't really as important so long as you either break up the pass or at least are in position to tackle the ball carrier. I would advise not to overthink these things. At the end of the day its more execution than scheme. On paper, if everyone executes then any scheme will work.
I get that success is more predicated on execution, I just want to understand the terminology.

Within a Cover 2 scheme, what would would dictate when a CB forces either an inside or outside release from a WR. I assume that is determined by where the support is and that the CB plays to funnel the WR to the support; either from an LB underneath or from a S.

Is where the WR given release another thing that is at the CBs discretion? Is it determined by down/distance? Is it dictated from the coaches before the snap?

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 10:20 AM
And by basic are you pretty much referring to either covering your man, or covering your zone?

Yes.

The preparation on the other hand is what's going to tell them, "Okay, I should play this like this" or "We need to check to this"

To try and give an example:

-Play call is just a base cover 2 shell.
-Corner breaks from huddle to his man (generally in this call, he'll be on the OUTSIDE shoulder of the widest guy)
-Then he sees an Ace formation
-Removes mouth piece and calls for cover 1.
-In this situation if they don't have the proper personnel to match it, you'll see a LB run over to a slot receiver. This happened several times last Sunday.

Or another

3rd and 4... ambiguous play between run and pass.

Usually SHOULD be a short zoned play, but for examples sake let's say a man coverage has been called. Corner walks to his responsibility and prepares to play bump. Recognizes 10 personnel (thats 1 RB, 0 TE, 4 WRs) and is ready to go.

Receiver gets motioned in tight... effectively become 11 personnel. There's no time to check into a cover 2/3 etc. Smart corner is going to walk it off into a loose coverage so he can read the backfield after the snap before his man and come up in run support to cut off the edge, force contain or just make the tackle before the 1st down marker.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 10:25 AM
I get that success is more predicated on execution, I just want to understand the terminology.

Within a Cover 2 scheme, what would would dictate when a CB forces either an inside or outside release from a WR. I assume that is determined by where the support is and that the CB plays to funnel the WR to the support; either from an LB underneath or from a S.

Is where the WR given release another thing that is at the CBs discretion? Is it determined by down/distance? Is it dictated from the coaches before the snap?

Absolutely not. Some teams prefer funneling the play inside so it's harder to hit the sideline where the safety has to stretch to reach. Some teams prefer outside release to keep the player between the WR and the ball. That's definitely not a player's discretion though.

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 10:31 AM
Oh I don't know. Sometimes offensive screw ups can be pretty epic. You see it in big situations where a receiver and QB aren't on the same page, a block is missed, or someone thinks its a run and not a pass like last game, and the result is an incomplete pass on third down, or worse, a turnover.

You are confirming my post. Yes, when a player on offense screws up his assigment its much more "apparent" than when a defensive player screws up his assignment because there is less ability to improvise on offense.

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 10:49 AM
And by basic are you pretty much referring to either covering your man, or covering your zone?

there's 2-3 different levels on every defense with the dline being the first level (level 1) the LBers being the second level (level 2) and the dbs being the 3rd level (level 3 aka "the secondary" level in that they are way off the LOS or on the second level of the defense).

Defenses are basically of 2 different types: 4-3 and 3-4 with the secondary adjusting to the type of basic defensive alignment the dline and LBers are in. Zone or man is more or less for the secondary and not so much for the first 2 levels of the defense (the dline and LBers). However defenses are so creative now that yes, you can drop defensive lineman back into zone coverage while blitzing someone from the secondary like a CB.

but the basic play is called by the LBer (usually the MLBer) and then audibles by the team captains (like Dawkins for the secondary and MLBer for the dline and LBers) are called once the offense lines up in front of the defense.

You always, always see the defense line up first. You never see the offense line up and then the defense line up for obvious reasons. However, the defense calls the play in the huddle based on down and distance (a basic play based on where they are on the field like 3rd and short) and then the defensive players line up. Then the defense watches the offense line up and then the audibles start based on the offensive package.

Inkana7
09-23-2011, 11:03 AM
Good stuff, guys.

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 11:27 AM
You are confirming my post. Yes, when a player on offense screws up his assigment its much more "apparent" than when a defensive player screws up his assignment because there is less ability to improvise on offense.

Oh I see what you're saying. It can be bad on defense too, though. When you see a dude wide open, generally someone made a mental error.

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 11:29 AM
there's 2-3 different levels on every defense with the dline being the first level (level 1) the LBers being the second level (level 2) and the dbs being the 3rd level (level 3 aka "the secondary" level in that they are way off the LOS or on the second level of the defense).

Defenses are basically of 2 different types: 4-3 and 3-4 with the secondary adjusting to the type of basic defensive alignment the dline and LBers are in. Zone or man is more or less for the secondary and not so much for the first 2 levels of the defense (the dline and LBers). However defenses are so creative now that yes, you can drop defensive lineman back into zone coverage while blitzing someone from the secondary like a CB.

but the basic play is called by the LBer (usually the MLBer) and then audibles by the team captains (like Dawkins for the secondary and MLBer for the dline and LBers) are called once the offense lines up in front of the defense.

You always, always see the defense line up first. You never see the offense line up and then the defense line up for obvious reasons. However, the defense calls the play in the huddle based on down and distance (a basic play based on where they are on the field like 3rd and short) and then the defensive players line up. Then the defense watches the offense line up and then the audibles start based on the offensive package.
So, within the terminology of a certain defense, is there a call for each level?

"Cover 2 under", for example. Is that just the call for the secondary, and there would be more to the call to designate the responsibilities of the Backers and the DL?

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 11:45 AM
So, within the terminology of a certain defense, is there a call for each level?

"Cover 2 under", for example. Is that just the call for the secondary, and there would be more to the call to designate the responsibilities of the Backers and the DL?

No... and just ignore his post. Not trying to be rude, but almost none of it was accurate.

Dedhed
09-23-2011, 11:52 AM
No... and just ignore his post. Not trying to be rude, but almost none of it was accurate.

Could you give an example of a defensive call and outline how it dictates what each group's responsibility is?

Chris
09-23-2011, 11:54 AM
I saw Socal talked about stuff the 9ers and Packers ran back in the day but what about trademark Broncos stuff? Did we pioneer anything? Highlights of the elway - td era?

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 12:01 PM
No... and just ignore his post. Not trying to be rude, but almost none of it was accurate.

LOL

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 12:16 PM
Could you give an example of a defensive call and outline how it dictates what each group's responsibility is?

The understanding is a little more complicated than that, based on a defenses reactionary nature. Here's a whole free defensive playbook to knock yourself out with:

http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/prodefense2/2003AtlantaFalconsDefense-1.pdf

LOL

I said I didn't want to be rude about it.

If you'd like me to be rude about it, by all means, let me know and I can go through your post in much more detail.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 12:36 PM
...or were you asking what a standard play call just looks like?

If so, while terms change the calls go generally by what's called the "front, stunt and coverage"

So you can say "w"(Term for 4-3 under), "x"(term for crashing strong) "y"(term for Sam blitz--blitzes covered under stunt in the middle), "z"(term for cover 3)

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 12:53 PM
The understanding is a little more complicated than that, based on a defenses reactionary nature. Here's a whole free defensive playbook to knock yourself out with:

http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/prodefense2/2003AtlantaFalconsDefense-1.pdf



I said I didn't want to be rude about it.

If you'd like me to be rude about it, by all means, let me know and I can go through your post in much more detail.

please explain how zone blocking works.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 12:57 PM
please explain how zone blocking works.

Right after you explain how "You always, always see the defense line up first. You never see the offense line up and then the defense line up for obvious reasons."

Does a DT say "Hmmm, I GUESS the G should be around here, so the 3 technique is probably here?"

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the Mane and anyone who's ever watched a ****ing football play immediately knows is wrong and stupid... and the rest of your post wasn't an improvement.

DomCasual
09-23-2011, 01:02 PM
What does the "man under" refer to?

I think it's where women glow and men plunder.

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Right after you explain how "You always, always see the defense line up first. You never see the offense line up and then the defense line up for obvious reasons."

Does a DT say "Hmmm, I GUESS the G should be around here, so the 3 technique is probably here?"

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the Mane and anyone who's ever watched a ****ing football play immediately knows is wrong and stupid... and the rest of your post wasn't an improvement.

The defense lines up first because they have to be prepared for the snap of the ball. They can't line up after the offense is set, that's too late. Yes, the defense makes adjustments after the offense lines up but they have to get in position first for the snap my friend.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 01:30 PM
The defense lines up first because they have to be prepared for the snap of the ball. They can't line up after the offense is set, that's too late. Yes, the defense makes adjustments after the offense lines up but they have to get in position first for the snap my friend.

This is beyond not worth my time.

Congrats on killing a good thread.

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 01:31 PM
This is beyond not worth my time.

Congrats on killing a good thread.

nice dodge and no answer...

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 02:15 PM
The defense lines up first because they have to be prepared for the snap of the ball. They can't line up after the offense is set, that's too late. Yes, the defense makes adjustments after the offense lines up but they have to get in position first for the snap my friend.

Now they really don't. The defense adjusts to the offense. Always. They sub personnel based on the personnel the offense fields. If the offense substitutes without telling the defense, its an illegal substitution. Defense gets to know every eligible player to defend fairly in advance. Once lined up, the defense guesses, based on the personnel packages, down, distance and history, what the offense is going to do and adjusts accordingly. Defense is purely reactive. Sure, the offense can use motion to try and determine if its man vs zone and audible or whatever, but the defense can show different looks, adjust their fronts, fake blitz, grab their nipples and dance around - anything. The offense has to freeze and basically be statues until the ball is snapped, and if they do move it is one player at a time, pre-snap.

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 02:33 PM
Now they really don't. The defense adjusts to the offense. Always. They sub personnel based on the personnel the offense fields. If the offense substitutes without telling the defense, its an illegal substitution. Defense gets to know every eligible player to defend fairly in advance. Once lined up, the defense guesses, based on the personnel packages, down, distance and history, what the offense is going to do and adjusts accordingly. Defense is purely reactive. Sure, the offense can use motion to try and determine if its man vs zone and audible or whatever, but the defense can show different looks, adjust their fronts, fake blitz, grab their nipples and dance around - anything. The offense has to freeze and basically be statues until the ball is snapped, and if they do move it is one player at a time, pre-snap.

The defensive play is called in the defensive huddle based again on the down and distance and situation (goaline for example). If it's third and long or something similar then the defense has to get the right players on the field to run whatever package they want like a nickle or a dime package. The defense has to do this all before the offense lines up. The defense has to be prepared for a quick count or a quick snap and yes, that means lining up before the offense. Most offenses don't do a quick count or a quick snap because the offense is also adjusting to the defense. But if for example Manning sees the defense is not lined up then he will do a quick snap and try to draw a penalty.

When an offense does the no huddle thing it's for a couple of reasons. It does not allow the defense to change players based on what the defense wants to run forcing the defense to keep the same players in all the time. Different defensive packages are based on the specialties of the players in the game and that is based on what type of play is being called.

TheReverend
09-23-2011, 02:37 PM
The defensive play is called in the defensive huddle based again on the down and distance and situation (goaline for example). If it's third and long or something similar then the defense has to get the right players on the field to run whatever package they want like a nickle or a dime package. The defense has to do this all before the offense lines up. The defense has to be prepared for a quick count or a quick snap and yes, that means lining up before the offense. Most offenses don't do a quick count or a quick snap because the offense is also adjusting to the defense. But if for example Manning sees the defense is not lined up then he will do a quick snap and try to draw a penalty.

When an offense does the no huddle thing it's for a couple of reasons. It does not allow the defense to change players based on what the defense wants to run forcing the defense to keep the same players in all the time. Different defensive packages are based on the specialties of the players in the game and that is based on what type of play is being called.

Ha!

Once again

Almost NONE of your post is correct.

It's astounding really. If the defense isn't lined up, it doesn't matter. There is no penalty. 12 men on the field is the only possible penalty with a quick snap. You can have 4 defenders on the field if you want to, and none of them lined up anywhere as long as they're on their side of the ball.

FFS, how do you have THAT many posts yet have clearly never even seen a football game?

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 02:38 PM
The defensive play is called in the defensive huddle based again on the down and distance and situation (goaline for example). If it's third and long or something similar then the defense has to get the right players on the field to run whatever package they want like a nickle or a dime package. The defense has to do this all before the offense lines up. The defense has to be prepared for a quick count or a quick snap and yes, that means lining up before the offense. Most offenses don't do a quick count or a quick snap because the offense is also adjusting to the defense. But if for example Manning sees the defense is not lined up then he will do a quick snap and try to draw a penalty.

When an offense does the no huddle thing it's for a couple of reasons. It does not allow the defense to change players based on what the defense wants to run forcing the defense to keep the same players in all the time. Different defensive packages are based on the specialties of the players in the game and that is based on what type of play is being called.
You're kind of muddying the waters here. That's not what you said. Your original point was the defense lines up before the offense and is set and can't move. That factually isn't true. Yes, both sides can change, and certainly once either side picks their personnel groupings they can't change until the next play, but offense goes first and the defense responds. Once the offense is set, they cannot move and the defense can (and often do).

Think about it simply: The offense is trying to do something and the defense is trying to stop it. If one person is stopping the other, who is reacting?

Tombstone RJ
09-23-2011, 02:48 PM
You're kind of muddying the waters here. That's not what you said. Your original point was the defense lines up before the offense and is set and can't move. That factually isn't true. Yes, both sides can change, and certainly once either side picks their personnel groupings they can't change until the next play, but offense goes first and the defense responds. Once the offense is set, they cannot move and the defense can (and often do).

Think about it simply: The offense is trying to do something and the defense is trying to stop it. If one person is stopping the other, who is reacting?

Yes, I said the defense always lines up first because of the snap. I never said the defensive players can't move, they can. I said the defense makes adjustments after the offense lines up and that's where you see the movement.

gyldenlove
09-23-2011, 03:07 PM
You're kind of muddying the waters here. That's not what you said. Your original point was the defense lines up before the offense and is set and can't move. That factually isn't true. Yes, both sides can change, and certainly once either side picks their personnel groupings they can't change until the next play, but offense goes first and the defense responds. Once the offense is set, they cannot move and the defense can (and often do).

Think about it simply: The offense is trying to do something and the defense is trying to stop it. If one person is stopping the other, who is reacting?

That is not quite true, the offense can only substitute prior to going in the huddle (or if they want to after they break the huddle, in which case the player coming on won't have been in the huddle). The defense can substitute any time they want as long as they do not have more than 11 players on the field when the ball is snapped.

Houshyamama
09-23-2011, 03:07 PM
At least we're arguing about football, and not Tony Romo's girlfriend. I love it.

Houshyamama
09-23-2011, 03:12 PM
Rev has talked about some defensive concepts, I'll talk about offensive concepts, most specifically in the passing game.

Hey bro, thanks for this. I'm going to read through it again a couple times. We really have some knowledgeable guys here on the Mane.

Kaylore
09-23-2011, 06:51 PM
That is not quite true, the offense can only substitute prior to going in the huddle (or if they want to after they break the huddle, in which case the player coming on won't have been in the huddle). The defense can substitute any time they want as long as they do not have more than 11 players on the field when the ball is snapped.

Well of course they can send guys in and out but they risk being out of position.

gyldenlove
09-23-2011, 07:10 PM
Well of course they can send guys in and out but they risk being out of position.

You were of course correct that they would normally avoid doing this, but it does happen from time to time.

SoCalBronco
09-24-2011, 12:02 AM
Continuing from Posts 43 and 44.....


We've discussed the HI-LO stretch principle, the HORIZONTAL stretch principle, the OPTION ROUTE principle and now we come to the final two common principles used in the passing game in 2 man and 3 man combinations, PICK/RUB concepts and COMBINATION concepts.

4. RUB/PICK CONCEPT- The pick idea is one common really to all sports. You are simply trying to create artificial seperation for a player against man-to-man coverage by picking the defender whose chasing him off with another reciever. Pick plays are technically illegal, but what is legal is a "rub". Essentially, if another reciever is also running an actual football route and another defender (who may be chasing another reciever) happens to bump into him it is not an actual pick because the sole purpose of the other reciever is not just to target and pick the defender, but rather to run an allegedly "independent" football route. The pick principle is most commonly associated with crossing routes. The idea is two recievers cross and they are SO CLOSE to each other (perhaps a foot or two between them) that the defender chasing the underneath crosser will get picked just because there simply isn't enough room to slide under the other crosser, so he either will get picked off or will have to go over the top which will create alot of seperation for the underneath crosser (this is the old BYU version of Mesh):

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__27/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-810877878-1258057907.jpg?ymzSgMCDO6kmJ.8P

On the above play, you may notice that X (reciever on the left) is actually aided by TWO rubs, first he'll allow the flat route in the slot to "go first" and slip right under his near shoulder and then if the CB isn't picked off by that, he'll run his crossing route right at around 4 yards to slip right under the other crossing route that's at about 5-6 yards to create another pick...I mean rub, after all picks are illegal. :) The CB will have a tough time getting through all that if he's playing man to man trying to chase the reciever across the field.


Here is an example of another type crossing route where a "rub" is utilized. Here, you don't get the rub by two guys crossing, but rather, you'll notice the Z, waits for Y (TE) to take an outside release and he'll slip underneath his outside shoulder and run his shallow crossing route. The CB who is chasing is going to have a hard time getting through that and may bump into the TE on his outside and then vertical release (This was yet another play that originated with the 49ers, its called "Flanker Drive"):

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/446328/driver.png
* You'll notice this route not only involves a pick concept with the reciever sliding underneath the TE's outside release and crossing, but it also involves a HI-LO stretch on the LB's with the TE on top and the Z on the bottom if its a zone, so its really a COMBO concept.


Here's another rub route, an inside reciever running a wheel right at the CB (but he doesnt actually physically stop and pick the corner, he just runs that wheel route right at him as close as possible to create the same effect, so the slant can slip underneath him and the CB can't follow cleanly:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/661139/wheel_slant.PNG

(The illustration is slightly inaccurate as it has the slant route deeper than it should be and makes it appear that the slant "goes first", but that's not the case, the slant must wait for the wheel and slip underneath the wheel to accentuate the rub on the CB)

Coach Walsh used RB's on rub concepts as well. Here's an illustration of his "Bingo Cross" route, as the Backs crossed to get the two LB's to run into each other creating seperation:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TiwPxRZ0dUs/RjXWMAu0vSI/AAAAAAAAAZE/v0V4baUhWI8/s400/20bingo+cross.JPG

Again you'll notice that this pass route involved two concepts at once, the pick/rub (vs. man) and also a hi-lo concept vs. zone (TE cross on top and Backs on the bottom to stretch the LB's between the hashes. Incidentally, if it was a zone, Walsh taught the RB's to settle after the cross so that they preserved the HI-LO principle with the TE, rather than kept running to the flats where a zone defender could jump their routes without worrying about someone on top).

5. Finally, we get to COMBINATON concepts. You've already seen some illustrations of combo's above with the Bingo Cross route and the Flanker Drive route, which used a pick/rub principle against man and a Hi-Lo Principle against Zone.

Here's a route that uses a combination of at least THREE different concepts at once. It is Mike Leach's favorite pass play and its referred to as "Mesh". You'll note that its very similar to the old BYU Mesh play I illustrated above. The original Mesh route as you can see is primarily a man-to-man beater, but was weak vs. Zone. The Post route didn't really add anything vs. zone (the post was a blitz beater). What Mumme and Leach did with the below version of Mesh is to change the Post to a Corner. Here is the Mumme/Leach "Air Raid" Mesh:

http://www.football-defense.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Air-Raid-Mesh-pick-with-H.png

So, you may ask, what is so special about this? Where are the three different concepts here?
1. PICK/RUB- This is obvious with the two crossing routes. Y goes first and X slips under him creating that pick (and as we mentioned, he'll get an additional rub from H). This is the man beater in the play, X will come open vs. man from the crossing routes slipping right under Y.
2. HORIZONTAL STRETCH- Pay close attention to the triangle that's created on the strongside. Yes, there IS a triangle, there. The TRIANGLE is the zone beater, so how do you create this triangle? There is a horizontal stretch on the flat defender with the playside mesh (X) coming across into the opposite flat and the swing route. If the defense is playing Cover 3 or Cover 4, the flat defender will usually be a OLB or SS (with one exception, Cov 3 Cloud, which I mentioned earlier in Post 43 I think). He's stretched horizontally. He has to either stay and wait for the playside mesh and give up the swing, or fly out to the swing and vacate an area for the playside mesh. This illustration shows a Cover 2 defense. The Cover 2 has defeated your horizontal stretch here, because the OLB is waiting for the playside mesh and the CB is sitting in the flat covering the swing, so.....

3. HI-LO STRETCH- The other half of the triangle then beats Cover 2. You also have a hi-lo stretch on the flat defender (CB in Cov 2) at the same time with the corner and the swing (it's Smash again!). Do you see the triangle, its created by the positioning of the Corner-Swing and Playside mesh. There's a hi-lo and a horizontal working at the same time.

That is why this play has been so effective first at Kentucky in the late 90s with Couch and Mumme, and then at Texas Tech with Leach and his QBs. They've got at least three things going on at once (its really four, but the fourth actually hurts the play in my view more than helps it, its better to just stick with the 3). A rub concept to beat man, a hi-lo concept to beat Cov 2 since the CB is the flat defender, and a horizontal stretch concept to beat the flat defender in Cov 3 and Cov 4. They've acounted for the three major types of zones and also man. Against a blitz, they'd check the Corner back into a Post and go up top. It's a great combo.

Here is another COMBO concept. This is another play from the Air Raid offense, the Y-Cross. Here, you have two concepts at once, a Hi-Lo (Y on deep cross above the WLB, H beneath the WLB) and also an option route (actually, there is arguably three concepts here on the frontside, a hi-lo on the half field FS with the vertical route and the deep cross and then another hi-lo between the deep cross and HB Option):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1PiTuBhELbU/SWQsKRFheQI/AAAAAAAAAVw/ryhW6ggQAS8/s320/ycross.gif

Here's another COMBO principle. You saw the Shallow-Dig combination earlier when we discussed HI-LO's. Here's the same Shallow-Dig, except X is the Shallow. What's different here from the examples of the two other Shallow Digs? Here, against man, X's defender (CB) will be picked by the wheel route H provides. X will slip under that and the CB will have a tough time chasing him, he'll run into the wheel. So here, the offense is utilizing HI-LO (Dig on top, Shallow on bottom) vs. Zone and PICK/RUB vs. man:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ePHv7EelXeM/TkQqA7uJDsI/AAAAAAAAALc/n2eB6vSeZNw/s512/jpeg4.jpg

Here's another COMBO principle:

http://smartfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/PRYORsnag.gif


You'll notice there's another triangle created on the strongside. They are using BOTH a HI-LO (Corner and swing creates a smash against Cov 2 with the CB in the flat) and a HORIZONTAL (Slant and Swing vs. the flat defender in Cov 3 and Cov 4).

Here's a final example of a COMBO route. Now this is really crazy stuff. This is Coach Spurrier's most famous route and it made SEC defenses suffer in the 90s against Cov 2 and Cov 3 (it didn't fare so well against Quarters or defenses where they bracketted both recievers, but it is genius against the 2 deep 5 underneath zone and the 3 deep 4 underneath zone):

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__19/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-354647783-1251402933.jpg?ym2iHzBDYmnI9fLl

Now what do we have here? This is actually the SAME PLAY. They aren't two seperate plays, but they look different against each defense. So Spurrier was using Option Routes. X would run a curl or a corner depending on whether the corner was up or off. In the traditional 2 deep zone, the CB would be up, so they'd run the corner and the HB is on the flat (what do you have here...a Smash combo again, although inverted, its not a hitch on the outside and a corner on the inside, but rather a corner on the outside and a flat on the inside, its the same idea though, hi-lo stretch on the CB). He also had the backside WR run an option route based on whether the Middle of the Field was open or not. If open, a Post, if not a dig.

So what does he have. Against the two deep, he has a HI-LO on the CB and also a HORIZONTAL stretch on the FS. If FS in Cov 2 cheats too far to the sideline to get to the corner, you throw the Post from the other side.

Against three deep, you have a HORIZONTAL stretch with the curl flat on the WLB and if WLB took the flat and MLB went weak for the Curl, you have the Dig in the middle of the field to fill the vacated void left by MLB (MLB being stretched from side to side). You've got OPTION ideas creating HORIZONTAL stretches and HI-LO stretches at the same time. Heady stuff back in the 90s from Coach Spurrier.

bowtown
09-24-2011, 09:42 AM
You said rub.

jutang
09-24-2011, 12:59 PM
Great stuff So Cal. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

extralife
09-24-2011, 02:29 PM
ESPN rarely does a film breakdown anymore.

which is a ****ing joke. they're a 24/7 sports network with gobs of money and they can't find a way to teach their viewers anything at all about the most popular sport in the country. film breakdown should be a staple of every show they do, and they should have a program dedicated to teaching viewers terminology, systems, and theory. sure, it wouldn't get the viewers PTI does, but does anyone think that wouldn't be worth it? that a show like that wouldn't generate a solid viewer base and good press?

Lev Vyvanse
09-24-2011, 02:52 PM
Yes, I said the defense always lines up first because of the snap. I never said the defensive players can't move, they can. I said the defense makes adjustments after the offense lines up and that's where you see the movement.


Next time you watch a game do me a favor watch and see who puts their hand in the dirt first. Is it the O-line or D-line? The defense stands in the approximate area where they need to line up, then after the O-line sets the defense lines up. The reason they can do this is the offense has to be set for one second before they snap the ball.

Rock Chalk
09-25-2011, 09:07 AM
which is a ****ing joke. they're a 24/7 sports network with gobs of money and they can't find a way to teach their viewers anything at all about the most popular sport in the country. film breakdown should be a staple of every show they do, and they should have a program dedicated to teaching viewers terminology, systems, and theory. sure, it wouldn't get the viewers PTI does, but does anyone think that wouldn't be worth it? that a show like that wouldn't generate a solid viewer base and good press?

Yeah they hardly ever show NASCAR strategies.

broncogary
09-25-2011, 09:25 AM
Yeah they hardly ever show NASCAR strategies.

You missed it, it was only 15 seconds long.

"Hit the gas and turn left!" :thanku:

Rock Chalk
09-25-2011, 09:56 AM
You missed it, it was only 15 seconds long.

"Hit the gas and turn left!" :thanku:

The great thing about NASCAR, its predictable. You know whats coming next. "Left hand turn!"

Tombstone RJ
09-25-2011, 10:05 AM
Next time you watch a game do me a favor watch and see who puts their hand in the dirt first. Is it the O-line or D-line? The defense stands in the approximate area where they need to line up, then after the O-line sets the defense lines up. The reason they can do this is the offense has to be set for one second before they snap the ball.

The defense still has to be prepared for the snap of the ball and that means they have to have their play called first and their basic alignment set. Yes, there is movement but they are prepared for the snap. It does make me wonder why offenses don't snap the ball quicker when the oline is set and the defensive line and LBers are still moving around. But the defense has to be prepared for the snap and they have to be in position for the snap.

Pick Six
09-25-2011, 10:11 AM
I think it's where women glow and men plunder.

Hmmm...Now, I'm hungry for a vegemite sandwich...if I even knew what that was...:spit:

BroncoBuff
10-17-2011, 04:08 PM
Congrats on killing a good thread.

You give up WAY too easy, you always do. First you make a few very incisive comments, then when somebody inevitably disagrees/misunderstands (newsflash, it's gonna happen 99% of the time), you pay them too much attention. They disagree a second time, and you throw up your hands and declare the thread ruined.

Last week in the other great thread where fontaine and Khan and others went in-depth on Zane Beadles, I learned more about in Beadles in that one thread than everywhere else put together. But you paid so much attention to Llama and that other knothead, you got so wound up you ruined it for yourself.

Patience, sempai ... patience.

TheReverend
10-17-2011, 04:11 PM
You give up WAY too easy, you always do. First you make a few very incisive comments, then when somebody inevitably disagrees/misunderstands (newsflash, it's gonna happen 99% of the time), you pay them too much attention. They disagree a second time, and you throw up your hands and declare the thread ruined.

Last week in the other great thread where fontaine and Khan and others went in-depth on Zane Beadles, I learned more about in Beadles in that one thread than everywhere else put together. But you paid so much attention to Llama and that other knothead, you got so wound up you ruined it for yourself.

Patience, sempai ... patience.

Are you confusing me with Khan there?

And there's no benefit for ME to exercise patience with jerk offs, is there?

Agamemnon
10-17-2011, 04:18 PM
Hmmm...Now, I'm hungry for a vegemite sandwich...if I even knew what that was...:spit:

Vegemite is a dark brown paste made from yeast extract. You sure you're hungry for it still? Ha!

Mediator12
10-18-2011, 11:25 AM
The defense still has to be prepared for the snap of the ball and that means they have to have their play called first and their basic alignment set. Yes, there is movement but they are prepared for the snap. It does make me wonder why offenses don't snap the ball quicker when the oline is set and the defensive line and LBers are still moving around. But the defense has to be prepared for the snap and they have to be in position for the snap.

Dude, you are FLAT out wrong. Everything the defense does on any given play is in reaction to how the offense lines up with personnel and formation. Every play call has a breakdown of how to play it based on those 2 things. Until the Offense declares its personnel and its formation a defense can NOT get lined up according to the playcall, period.

Sorry, but that is completely backwards.

bendog
10-18-2011, 11:42 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1PiTuBhELbU/SWQsKRFheQI/AAAAAAAAAVw/ryhW6ggQAS8/s320/ycross.gif

I found this interesting because it's essentially what Shanny ran when sonic was here, but with Jake rolling left. And, what made it work so well was what mediator said. From that same base set, shanny ran the bread and butter play of line zone blocks right, Sonic gets the pitch and heads right, and then picks his hole. Slap defenses both ways out of the same set. Tough on safeties.

Mediator12
10-18-2011, 12:45 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1PiTuBhELbU/SWQsKRFheQI/AAAAAAAAAVw/ryhW6ggQAS8/s320/ycross.gif

I found this interesting because it's essentially what Shanny ran when sonic was here, but with Jake rolling left. And, what made it work so well was what mediator said. From that same base set, shanny ran the bread and butter play of line zone blocks right, Sonic gets the pitch and heads right, and then picks his hole. Slap defenses both ways out of the same set. Tough on safeties.

Shanahan could run 100 plays out of the same formation based on what he wanted to do to a defense. That playbook was insane. He is exactly the opposite of Sean Payton who can run the same play out of 100 formations ;D

The whole thing with the defense is getting players who can execute what you want to do defensively. That is why I quit caring about DEN's defense until the play the same damn system for a 3 year stretch. They have NOT played the same base system since, wait for it, Greg Robinson ~Popps~

Shanahan was always able to plug guys into his system who fit what he wanted them to do. Having that same offense for 10+ years allowed them some leeway in player acquisition and made average players look elite at times at the skill positions (Lelie, Anderson, McCaffrey etc.)

Why he did not do the same damn thing on defense I will never know. He is still doing the same damn thing in WAS taking a top 10 4-3 defense and converting it to a base 3-4 system without the right players ???

In the end, it all comes down to having the right players to execute the plays called. This still makes me come undone watching how some NFL franchises lose that perspective and change coaches, schemes, and players so much. Continuity with those three things makes a huge difference.

TheReverend
10-18-2011, 12:46 PM
^ Let me know when you can fit the podcast in your schedule, Matthew. I'll make sure my night is clear and come join you on.

Eldorado
10-18-2011, 12:56 PM
The defense still has to be prepared for the snap of the ball and that means they have to have their play called first and their basic alignment set. Yes, there is movement but they are prepared for the snap. It does make me wonder why offenses don't snap the ball quicker when the oline is set and the defensive line and LBers are still moving around. But the defense has to be prepared for the snap and they have to be in position for the snap.

Dude, you are FLAT out wrong. Everything the defense does on any given play is in reaction to how the offense lines up with personnel and formation. Every play call has a breakdown of how to play it based on those 2 things. Until the Offense declares its personnel and its formation a defense can NOT get lined up according to the playcall, period.

Sorry, but that is completely backwards.

Well, that should end that.

schaaf
10-18-2011, 12:56 PM
this is the best thread on the mane since I joined, wish it had even more

bendog
10-18-2011, 01:17 PM
The whole thing with the defense is getting players who can execute what you want to do defensively. That is why I quit caring about DEN's defense until the play the same damn system for a 3 year stretch. They have NOT played the same base system since, wait for it, Greg Robinson ~Popps~
Why he did not do the same damn thing on defense I will never know. He is still doing the same damn thing in WAS taking a top 10 4-3 defense and converting it to a base 3-4 system without the right players ???

In the end, it all comes down to having the right players to execute the plays called. This still makes me come undone watching how some NFL franchises lose that perspective and change coaches, schemes, and players so much. Continuity with those three things makes a huge difference.

I think that's right. With Robinson, the team just got old, and then Shanny was signing Dale Carter, and then drafting for need rather than for positions where the draft was deep (Deltha ONeal and G. Foster). Then they tried to build a defense to stop Payaton, with Gold and Brandon, and finally figuring out how to run a draft, but like you said, he kept throwing the dcoord under the bus.

I will say that when Rhodes dropped nine into coverage against Rich Gannon, a little part of me broke. And when Pitt kept picking up the blitz and Rapesburger was completing plays with one or two recievers, and Jake couldn't get out of the pocket ... it broke again. The defense with Champ made the play they had to make to win the game, but the offense didn't get it done. And I think Shanny still threw the DC under the bus.

he's a great coach and not a terrible person, but for me that was when I thought his run in Den was done. Maybe others are right that he had the nucleus set with Cutler, but I just didn't see it with the defense.

Houshyamama
10-18-2011, 01:26 PM
this is the best thread on the mane since I joined, wish it had even more

Yeah, thanks to all those that have contributed thus far. I've learned a **** load.

Kaylore
10-18-2011, 02:21 PM
Are you confusing me with Khan there?

And there's no benefit for ME to exercise patience with jerk offs, is there?

I think he is. I let Llama's ignorant need to be the underdog get under my skin. Fontaine saved that thread illustrating all the points I was trying to make. He really elevated that thread for everyone else. You actually sent me a rep (one of many I got warning me to ignore Llama) saying it wasn't worth my time.

bendog
10-18-2011, 02:33 PM
I've been trying to remember the Olandis Gary "play." The beauty of Shanny was the relative simplicity, like Mediator sort of said. Everything could be run out of one set, but at the same time he could do stuff like put Sharpe in motion and move him out to the slot, which forced the defense to declare their coverage.

But with Gary, Shanny used his speed/size mix by using that same base set, with the oline showing zone block right. But, TBone at left tackle just taking a step the other way, to the left and outside, sealing off the DE from being able to pursue outside. The fullback screened the Will from the sideline. The WR just punked the corner. Gary took the pitch and raced the Free safety for the sideline, and being that he was bigger than any free safety, he laid wood on the guy and possibly got past him and downfield.

Assuming the three blocks are made, the only way to stop the play is to cheat someone over to the left side. And defenses didn't want that because, again, this play worked off of the bread and butter play of line zone blocks right, Tailback takes the pitch going right, and cuts back. And the absolute genius of the play was that of the three blocks, two were just seal blocks with the LT and FB establishing position and not letting the defender past them. The only block that required the blocker to physically dominate the defender was the WR on the corner.

Anyway, I was trying to remember if Shanny ran it out of the pro set, or even that staggered set with the FB a step closer to the line and the tailback in the pro set behind and to the right of the qb, or whether Den ran it out of the I. I couldn't find it on the web.

I miss those days. Travis Henry being in Den hurt me a little though.

Mediator12
10-18-2011, 05:00 PM
I've been trying to remember the Olandis Gary "play." The beauty of Shanny was the relative simplicity, like Mediator sort of said. Everything could be run out of one set, but at the same time he could do stuff like put Sharpe in motion and move him out to the slot, which forced the defense to declare their coverage.

But with Gary, Shanny used his speed/size mix by using that same base set, with the oline showing zone block right. But, TBone at left tackle just taking a step the other way, to the left and outside, sealing off the DE from being able to pursue outside. The fullback screened the Will from the sideline. The WR just punked the corner. Gary took the pitch and raced the Free safety for the sideline, and being that he was bigger than any free safety, he laid wood on the guy and possibly got past him and downfield.

Assuming the three blocks are made, the only way to stop the play is to cheat someone over to the left side. And defenses didn't want that because, again, this play worked off of the bread and butter play of line zone blocks right, Tailback takes the pitch going right, and cuts back. And the absolute genius of the play was that of the three blocks, two were just seal blocks with the LT and FB establishing position and not letting the defender past them. The only block that required the blocker to physically dominate the defender was the WR on the corner.

Anyway, I was trying to remember if Shanny ran it out of the pro set, or even that staggered set with the FB a step closer to the line and the tailback in the pro set behind and to the right of the qb, or whether Den ran it out of the I. I couldn't find it on the web.

I miss those days. Travis Henry being in Den hurt me a little though.

The answer is the ran it out of all of those formations and more! The one play that was killer was that play out of the offset I formation. The FB would be offset to the weak side and the TE either inline or split out to occupy the Sam. It caused a strength issue for the Defense. If they played the TE in the pass that run play was on. If they played the run Sharp would school the Sam for an easy catch. Those were the aubibles for that formation along with a deep ball to Lelie off PA once they started schooling teams.

They really only had 8 running plays out of the zone concept and then they mixed in some counter plays including the counter toss that were very effective when teams anticipated the zone runs.

Where he was genius and still is, is anticipating how another DC would react to his scripted plays. He would see how the other DC would adjust to the scripted plays and then run something that would exploit it for a big play. Lelie was great at that for DEN. He would never make those big plays early, but he would get a great opportunity once a game after Shanahan set up the defense early. Especially if the running game was rolling and the PA pass or bootleg was used. The games DEN always struggled was when teams stopped the run early and all game long like some of those old JAX games. The passing game was predicated on that, just like HOU's is today with Kubiak.

BroncoBuff
10-18-2011, 07:02 PM
I've been trying to remember the Olandis Gary "play." The beauty of Shanny was the relative simplicity, like Mediator sort of said. Everything could be run out of one set, but at the same time he could do stuff like put Sharpe in motion and move him out to the slot, which forced the defense to declare their coverage.

Wasn't in SB XXXII when Shanahan used Sharpe in formations and motions specifically to move Eugene Robinson away from the play? There was an in-depth ESPN strategy show that outlined this. Sharpe said he didn't mind being used that way as long as they win, and Shanahan said "we won with formations." That was a great show, in depth detail. Not unlike this thread, actually.

Bronx33
10-18-2011, 07:20 PM
Med and bendog don't ever stop posting here.

BroncoBuff
10-18-2011, 07:35 PM
Are you confusing me with Khan there?

And there's no benefit for ME to exercise patience with jerk offs, is there?

Yes, Khan was riled up in that thread, pretty ticked off. Reminded me of one of those inner-city high school movies where a fresh-faced young teacher comes in and tries to get through to "these kids," until finally one day he cracks under the pressure :~ohyah!: ... But actually I was talking more about your hair-trigger "this thread is ruined!" proclamations. You say that fairly often.


Anyway, that Walton/Beadles thread and this thread, there must be some way to have more of these kinds of threads. Maybe like the podcasts ... just a few specific guys posting. That would be great.

gyldenlove
10-18-2011, 07:40 PM
The answer is the ran it out of all of those formations and more! The one play that was killer was that play out of the offset I formation. The FB would be offset to the weak side and the TE either inline or split out to occupy the Sam. It caused a strength issue for the Defense. If they played the TE in the pass that run play was on. If they played the run Sharp would school the Sam for an easy catch. Those were the aubibles for that formation along with a deep ball to Lelie off PA once they started schooling teams.

They really only had 8 running plays out of the zone concept and then they mixed in some counter plays including the counter toss that were very effective when teams anticipated the zone runs.

Where he was genius and still is, is anticipating how another DC would react to his scripted plays. He would see how the other DC would adjust to the scripted plays and then run something that would exploit it for a big play. Lelie was great at that for DEN. He would never make those big plays early, but he would get a great opportunity once a game after Shanahan set up the defense early. Especially if the running game was rolling and the PA pass or bootleg was used. The games DEN always struggled was when teams stopped the run early and all game long like some of those old JAX games. The passing game was predicated on that, just like HOU's is today with Kubiak.

Shanahan's scripts are deadly, he sets up plays like a chessgame, he shows a play out of a formation with a certain group and then comes back to the same formation and grouping and hit you with something completely different.

Shanahan's down fall was always his personnel decisions, he was a superb football coach and extremely gifted offensive strategist and play caller, but too inconsistent in gauging player talent.

One play that I learned from watching him coach the Broncos was the naked bootleg with the a TE coming across and a WR going deep. Against a zone defense you get the WR 1 on 1 down field and against man the TE will get open for a catch and run and if the defense really bites hard on the play fake a QB with just a bit of mobility can pick up 10-15 yards on the ground.

Mediator12
10-19-2011, 07:52 AM
We play a ****-ton of cover 1. I can't image we won't pay the piper in the end.

I worry about the depth of the safeties in our Cover one and cover 2 packages. It leaves a tremendous amount of medium range gaps in the passing game just to attempt to take away the big play. It also creates awkward tackling gaps in the cone concept of zone tackling. I think it makes our DB's worse tacklers and perpetuates more missed tackles.

vancejohnson82
10-19-2011, 08:04 AM
I worry about the depth of the safeties in our Cover one and cover 2 packages. It leaves a tremendous amount of medium range gaps in the passing game just to attempt to take away the big play. It also creates awkward tackling gaps in the cone concept of zone tackling. I think it makes our DB's worse tacklers and perpetuates more missed tackles.

Interesting....why is it that we keep getting beat over the top then? For example, it happened twice in the Green Bay game (I believe once Dawkins got absolutely toasted) and right before the half in the San Diego game?

That play in the SD game baffles me....haven't had a chance to watch it again, but to me its inexusable to get beat over the top in that situation

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 08:05 AM
I worry about the depth of the safeties in our Cover one and cover 2 packages. It leaves a tremendous amount of medium range gaps in the passing game just to attempt to take away the big play. It also creates awkward tackling gaps in the cone concept of zone tackling. I think it makes our DB's worse tacklers and perpetuates more missed tackles.

Odd.

I haven't noticed any tackling issues out of the safety position.

The thing that's bothering me with their drops is they still can't make it over to the big passing play in time to stop it despite playing 30 yards off the LOS. That's just sad

Kaylore
10-19-2011, 08:14 AM
Odd.

I haven't noticed any tackling issues out of the safety position.

The thing that's bothering me with their drops is they still can't make it over to the big passing play in time to stop it despite playing 30 yards off the LOS. That's just sad

This.

Mediator12
10-19-2011, 09:27 AM
So, within the terminology of a certain defense, is there a call for each level?

"Cover 2 under", for example. Is that just the call for the secondary, and there would be more to the call to designate the responsibilities of the Backers and the DL?

Defensive playcalls involve 3-5 basic things:

1. Defensive personnel for the play. (Base, nickel, exotic, etc.)
2. Defensive line front. (Over, Under, OverStem etc.)
3. Defensive Coverage. (cover 2 zone, Cover 2 man, cover one man etc.)

So a basic Playcall would be Base Over 2.

Base= base 4-3 personnel in Denver. In the playbook, base would be simply Over 2.

Over= running an Over front with the 4 DL. Over means the Under tackle will play on the Closed End side of the formation in a 3 technique. The NT will align in a one technique on the open end side of the formation. The closed DE will play in an 8 technique stacking head up over the TE. The open DE will be aligned in a 5 tech over the Outside Shoulder of the LT.

This also dictates the run responsibility of the DL, but the LB's responsibility will depend on the coverage. Also, the SAM LB will align away from the TE. This is different than in under Coverage where the SAM will play the TE head up. This is why a lot of teams simply play a ROLB and a Left OLB versus a SAM or WILL. That is what Coyer did in DEN and why everyone was so confused with where DJ was on every play. Sometimes he was a WILL and sometimes he was a SAM based on the fronts and coverages.

2= the cover 2 zone coverage. This is base Cover 2 zone and NOT tampa 2 Zone. It is a 2 deep 5 under zone defense. Corners are rolled up on the WR's with their backs to the sideline and forcing them to release to middle help of the five under players.

Now, what really happens in an NFL game with an Over 2 playcall? The 2 other factors that come into play are there, plus any additional adjustments to a teams individual players, formations, or tendencies are included. This is called gameplanning. It is taking a playcall and making it the most effective against your opponents strengths and weaknesses.

The other 2 factors in a playcall are:

1. Line technique-Any run or pass stunts or modifications to the individual techniques where the DL line up. Examples are Stick, Pirate or Arrow stunts.

2. Coverage emphasis-To change the basic coverage to fit the team, situation, or down and distance. Going LOOSE is now having your CB's show press presnap and then going back to play off in a read style and then having your LB's loosen up to the LOS to give more depth off the snap to protect the first down marker.

Now, we apply the Over 2 playcall to the offenses personnel and formation, down and distance, and game situation. Let's make this interesting from the original video. It's the fourth quarter and you are leading 24-22. CIN has the ball on their 40 yard line it's second and 10 with 1:31 left on the clock. DEN plays a version of Over 2 here. How does it change with all the variables in play?

So, the basic playcall is Over 2. However, the offense is in 11 personnel which is 1 RB and 1 TE with 3 WR's. The personnel dictates DEN play with a Nickel package. So, the playcall becomes Nickel Over 2. They decide to run a stunt and call a simple Stick with the closed end. So, now the playcall becomes Nickel Stick Over 2. Also, they decide to rush the open end from a 2 point stance. This is their base nickel set, so no extra information is relayed in the playcall. Also, the situation dictates that giving up a short pass inside is better than gett ing beat at deep or intermediate levels so they play off or Loose. Now, the playcall is Nickel Stick Over 2 Loose.

However, when it is called in the huddle Over is the base nickel front. So the LB would call the play Nickel Stick 2 Loose and omit the Over part to save time and simplify things.

That is the play call and it does not even take into account the formation yet to line the players up. I will do that later, I am out of time!

Tombstone RJ
10-19-2011, 12:24 PM
Dude, you are FLAT out wrong. Everything the defense does on any given play is in reaction to how the offense lines up with personnel and formation. Every play call has a breakdown of how to play it based on those 2 things. Until the Offense declares its personnel and its formation a defense can NOT get lined up according to the playcall, period.

Sorry, but that is completely backwards.

The defense has to have their play called before the offense. They can't do it after the offense lines up, that is too late.

What generally happens is the defensive coach calls the plays to the MLB (or whoever has the mike in the helmet) and that is based on things like down and distance. This tells the defense who needs to be on the field. Then they bring in their right guys to run the play. This is a big reason why the no huddle screws with a defense. The defense does not have time to sub guys in and out, they have to play the guys on the field.

All the adjustments a defense makes after the offense is lined up is still based on the play the defensive coordinator has already called. The defense is not calling their play after the offense is lined up, that's too late.

The defensive packages have been coached up all weak long. They base this crap on watching film and knowing what the opposing offense does on any given play.

I'm tired of aguing the crap with you and the colostomy bag known as Rev. You believe whatever you want to believe.

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 01:02 PM
The defense has to have their play called before the offense. They can't do it after the offense lines up, that is too late.

What generally happens is the defensive coach calls the plays to the MLB (or whoever has the mike in the helmet) and that is based on things like down and distance. This tells the defense who needs to be on the field. Then they bring in their right guys to run the play. This is a big reason why the no huddle screws with a defense. The defense does not have time to sub guys in and out, they have to play the guys on the field.

All the adjustments a defense makes after the offense is lined up is still based on the play the defensive coordinator has already called. The defense is not calling their play after the offense is lined up, that's too late.

The defensive packages have been coached up all weak long. They base this crap on watching film and knowing what the opposing offense does on any given play.

I'm tired of aguing the crap with you and the colostomy bag known as Rev. You believe whatever you want to believe.

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/wtf/grand/06402767-wtf.gif



































































http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/hutch1999/misc/2quua34.jpg

bowtown
10-19-2011, 01:06 PM
What generally happens is the defensive coach calls the plays to the MLB (or whoever has the mike in the helmet) and that is based on things like down and distance. This tells the defense who needs to be on the field. Then they bring in their right guys to run the play. This is a big reason why the no huddle screws with a defense. The defense does not have time to sub guys in and out, they have to play the guys on the field.

This is a hilarious paragraph.

bendog
10-19-2011, 01:17 PM
Wasn't in SB XXXII when Shanahan used Sharpe in formations and motions specifically to move Eugene Robinson away from the play? There was an in-depth ESPN strategy show that outlined this. Sharpe said he didn't mind being used that way as long as they win, and Shanahan said "we won with formations." That was a great show, in depth detail. Not unlike this thread, actually.

You'd need to ask Med that. I'm more interesting in run offense and defenses. I do recall in the Green Bay superbowl, Shanny used Sharpe get the strong safety to declare if he was in man by having sharpe motion from the traditional TE position to more of a slot. But I may be wrong about that, and it may have had more to do with what Mediator was talking about how Shanny would get an offense out of position by overloading the full back with the TE. During the TD years, the "base" set was TD in the traditional pro-set, to the right and behind the qb. Griffith was on the other side, but closer to the line of scrimmage. On the typical TD toss, it was zone block right, and Griffith more or less didn't have a block at the initial point of attack, but he'd pick off a linebacker to help TD have a cut back lane.

But shanny would force a defense to get out of balance because Griffith was a reciever too, and he could put Sharpe in motion to move from the strong side to Griffth's side. Can't cover a wr, Sharpe and Griffith with just a corner, safety and will. And Shanny was unafraid to still run the zone block right, pitch to TD with just a guard, tackle and wr to the side. So, if a defense cheats a safety over towards Sharpe, Shanny would still run it. And Smith and EMac were capable of cut blocking a linebacker. I'm not sure the enjoyed it, though (-:

Ask Med about Sharpe.

bendog
10-19-2011, 01:34 PM
The defense has to have their play called before the offense. They can't do it after the offense lines up, that is too late.

What generally happens is the defensive coach calls the plays to the MLB (or whoever has the mike in the helmet) and that is based on things like down and distance. This tells the defense who needs to be on the field. Then they bring in their right guys to run the play. This is a big reason why the no huddle screws with a defense. The defense does not have time to sub guys in and out, they have to play the guys on the field. .

I think you just mistunderstood what Mediator was saying. Let me try an example. Den tried to defense Payaton by going with what they called, if I recall correctly, big nickle. They pulled one of the linebackers and played a large safety, Sam Brandon, basically as the Will, but over Payaton's slot WR. That was pretty much their base set. But out of that, the defensive play call still involved pretty much the entire thing of line stunts and coverage packages. You are right to the extent you are trying to say that certain personnel packages, such as short yardage or dime, exclude some of the possible defensive playcalls a team has in their playbook.

btw, in one of those games I came off of a month of sobriety and weight loss because the ODULS WERE NOT CUTTING IT, so I had to go get a twelve pack at the half and break into the EMERGENCY FIFTH OF KETTLE ONE (-:

elsid13
10-19-2011, 03:37 PM
Wasn't in SB XXXII when Shanahan used Sharpe in formations and motions specifically to move Eugene Robinson away from the play? There was an in-depth ESPN strategy show that outlined this. Sharpe said he didn't mind being used that way as long as they win, and Shanahan said "we won with formations." That was a great show, in depth detail. Not unlike this thread, actually.

Yes it was. The next year Sharpe was to be the feature target until he hurt himself.

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 03:42 PM
LeRoy Butler, not Eugene Robinson.

...funny story though, Eugene Robinson covered Sharpe in the following Superbowl with the Falcons until injury.

Pendejo
10-19-2011, 04:34 PM
LeRoy Butler, not Eugene Robinson.

...funny story though, Eugene Robinson covered Sharpe in the following Superbowl with the Falcons until injury.

Was he injured, or did he merely suffer exhaustion. He must have been tired chasing Rod Smith, and hookers all over the place.

Chris
10-19-2011, 04:48 PM
If that's the case and we're still getting beat over the top am I to infer that Rahim Moore hasn't actually demonstrated his supposed "range" (nevermind tacking ability)? I may be reaching and it's all on the scheme. Just curious.

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 05:01 PM
Was he injured, or did he merely suffer exhaustion. He must have been tired chasing Rod Smith, and hookers all over the place.

Sharpe's injury...

TheReverend
10-19-2011, 05:16 PM
If that's the case and we're still getting beat over the top am I to infer that Rahim Moore hasn't actually demonstrated his supposed "range" (nevermind tacking ability)? I may be reaching and it's all on the scheme. Just curious.

Its a cerebral position. He's put in a heavy mental position instead of a "here do this" like a lot of "play making" safeties that get moved around heavy.

Mistakes will happen.

That being said, the coaching has been absurd. No Gates to attack the middle vs SD and we're getting beat at the sideline?! Cheat the eff over. That's just one microcosm of many stupid decisions.

Mediator12
10-19-2011, 06:35 PM
there's 2-3 different levels on every defense with the dline being the first level (level 1) the LBers being the second level (level 2) and the dbs being the 3rd level (level 3 aka "the secondary" level in that they are way off the LOS or on the second level of the defense).

Defenses are basically of 2 different types: 4-3 and 3-4 with the secondary adjusting to the type of basic defensive alignment the dline and LBers are in. Zone or man is more or less for the secondary and not so much for the first 2 levels of the defense (the dline and LBers). However defenses are so creative now that yes, you can drop defensive lineman back into zone coverage while blitzing someone from the secondary like a CB.

but the basic play is called by the LBer (usually the MLBer) and then audibles by the team captains (like Dawkins for the secondary and MLBer for the dline and LBers) are called once the offense lines up in front of the defense.

You always, always see the defense line up first. You never see the offense line up and then the defense line up for obvious reasons. However, the defense calls the play in the huddle based on down and distance (a basic play based on where they are on the field like 3rd and short) and then the defensive players line up. Then the defense watches the offense line up and then the audibles start based on the offensive package.

This is wrong. The defense may have already called the play, but they wait to see how the offense aligns before they line up. They know the play call, but still have to wait to see where the offense lines up. What if the Defense is in man coverage and the alignment is twins? The CB who lined up on the right side of the field has to run 35 yards to get the Slot WR on the other side? No way. What you see is the defense in a muddle huddle waiting for the offense to declare its formation.

First of all, you need to know which side the strength of the play is to place your DL, LB's, and safeties! You can not line up properly without determining the strength of the formation. Second, you need to see where the 5 Skill position players align to determine the run gap responsibilities and coverage corrections on that play. Third, you need to determine whether or not to adjust to the formation as you do NOT run certain plays against all formations.

Also, the term zone or man relates to the entire back seven, not the back four. Anyone with coverage responsibilities plays zone or man based on the playcall.

elsid13
10-19-2011, 06:50 PM
Just because I don't want to turn it into a McCoy Tebow discussion. Here the question who do you think are the most cutting edge OC or DC in college or the NFL right now?

Bronx33
10-19-2011, 07:47 PM
This is wrong. The defense may have already called the play, but they wait to see how the offense aligns before they line up. They know the play call, but still have to wait to see where the offense lines up. What if the Defense is in man coverage and the alignment is twins? The CB who lined up on the right side of the field has to run 35 yards to get the Slot WR on the other side? No way. What you see is the defense in a muddle huddle waiting for the offense to declare its formation.

First of all, you need to know which side the strength of the play is to place your DL, LB's, and safeties! You can not line up properly without determining the strength of the formation. Second, you need to see where the 5 Skill position players align to determine the run gap responsibilities and coverage corrections on that play. Third, you need to determine whether or not to adjust to the formation as you do NOT run certain plays against all formations.

Also, the term zone or man relates to the entire back seven, not the back four. Anyone with coverage responsibilities plays zone or man based on the playcall.



Pardon my question but what are the 5 skill position players?

El Guapo
10-19-2011, 08:07 PM
A deep half isnt nearly as hard as man coverage.
Youre crazy, id go balls deep on Anna... Oh...wait.


Id love to learn about all of this stuff. Good thread.

Tombstone RJ
10-19-2011, 09:16 PM
This is wrong. The defense may have already called the play, but they wait to see how the offense aligns before they line up. They know the play call, but still have to wait to see where the offense lines up. What if the Defense is in man coverage and the alignment is twins? The CB who lined up on the right side of the field has to run 35 yards to get the Slot WR on the other side? No way. What you see is the defense in a muddle huddle waiting for the offense to declare its formation.

First of all, you need to know which side the strength of the play is to place your DL, LB's, and safeties! You can not line up properly without determining the strength of the formation. Second, you need to see where the 5 Skill position players align to determine the run gap responsibilities and coverage corrections on that play. Third, you need to determine whether or not to adjust to the formation as you do NOT run certain plays against all formations.

Also, the term zone or man relates to the entire back seven, not the back four. Anyone with coverage responsibilities plays zone or man based on the playcall.

I should have said you always see the defense break huddle and get into their basic formation. Yes, the defense adjusts to the offense for example the dlineman lines up according to his gap responsibility and that means he either lines up in front of an olinemane or in a gap between two lineman (for example), but the play is called, the basic defense is set. There will be adjustments by the defense but if the defensive coordinator called a blitz (for example), then the defense is going to blitz (or call a time out because they see something that freaks them out) but the play is set, each guy knows what his responsibility is, they have to because they have to be ready for the snap. Yes, adjustments are made--if the defense has time--but if the offense lines up fast and goes on a quick snap the defense is ready.

Tombstone RJ
10-19-2011, 09:19 PM
Pardon my question but what are the 5 skill position players?

quarterback
runningback (the backfield player positions)
wide receivers

TE's are considered part of the offensive line but arguable in today's NFL they could be considered a skill position IMHO.

basically the big money positions (outside for Left Tackle) or anyone not on the offensive line.

Vegas_Bronco
10-19-2011, 09:40 PM
Quiz: In which scenario does the defense score 2 points?

A) a defensive team blocks an extra point attempt and runs the ball back to the opposite end zone
B) a defensive team intercepts a two point conversion and runs it back
C) a defensive team tackles a returner in the end zone after the returner has left the end zone with the ball.

El Guapo
10-19-2011, 09:46 PM
B, because only 2 points are possible?


Mind you this is after 6 beers. Good night world.

Vegas_Bronco
10-19-2011, 09:51 PM
Quiz #2:

QB ratings are determined by the following:
(Completions/Attempts x 100) + (Yards/Att. x 8.4) + (TDs/Att. x 330) - (INTs/Att. x 200)

Is the above equation used for college or nfl ratings?

Lev Vyvanse
10-19-2011, 10:29 PM
C
and
college.

Bronco Yoda
10-20-2011, 12:00 AM
I wonder if Fox will employ his own version of Amoeba Defense when our Defense settles in. I know that Carolina tried it but without the success of the Pats, jets or Browns.

TheReverend
10-20-2011, 08:13 AM
quarterback
runningback (the backfield player positions)
wide receivers

TE's are considered part of the offensive line but arguable in today's NFL they could be considered a skill position IMHO.

basically the big money positions (outside for Left Tackle) or anyone not on the offensive line.

Jesus... Wrong again. Its like you're trying.

The five skill position players are the perimeter players (wrs, rbs, tes, etc). Hence seeing where they line up. Its no effing mystery where the QB is headed lol

Kaylore
10-20-2011, 08:37 AM
Quiz: In which scenario does the defense score 2 points?

A) a defensive team blocks an extra point attempt and runs the ball back to the opposite end zone
B) a defensive team intercepts a two point conversion and runs it back
C) a defensive team tackles a returner in the end zone after the returner has left the end zone with the ball.

I believe it is C. As I understand, returning a two point conversion and/or returning a botched extra point awards no points.

vancejohnson82
10-20-2011, 08:39 AM
I believe it is C. As I understand, returning a two point conversion and/or returning a botched extra point awards no points.

Is that only in the NFL??? I thought in college you are awarded points for an interception return on a two point conversion

bendog
10-20-2011, 09:11 AM
I believe it is C. As I understand, returning a two point conversion and/or returning a botched extra point awards no points.

Correct.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/try

However, an exception is made for Tim Tebow, who may return another team's missed extra point for a touchdown. This is referred to as the Tim Tebow Touchdown Try Rule.

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 12:34 PM
Jesus... Wrong again. Its like you're trying.

The five skill position players are the perimeter players (wrs, rbs, tes, etc). Hence seeing where they line up. Its no effing mystery where the QB is headed lol

wrong captain colostomy bag. the TE is not a skilled position player you fuggen moron.

TheReverend
10-20-2011, 12:43 PM
wrong captain colostomy bag. the TE is not a skilled position player you fuggen moron.

http://menversus.com/images/bertstare.jpg

I have no words...

So what are the 5 skill position players if an offense comes out in 13 personnel?

Or 0?

You seriously amaze me. I don't know if I've ever come in contact with a bigger poser, and I lived in SoCal for 5 years so that's really saying something.

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 12:46 PM
http://menversus.com/images/bertstare.jpg

I have no words...

So what are the 5 skill position players if an offense comes out in 13 personnel?

Or 0?

You seriously amaze me. I don't know if I've ever come in contact with a bigger poser, and I lived in SoCal for 5 years so that's really saying something.

Quarterback, runningbacks and WR's are the offensive skilled position players. If you don't know this then you have absolutely no right to question anything I post about football.

bendog
10-20-2011, 12:46 PM
It's probably a skill position with a guy like Jimmy Graham in NO but not with that Quinn guy or Tommy Graham's son.

TheReverend
10-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Quarterback, runningbacks and WR's are the offensive skilled position players. If you don't know this then you have absolutely no right to question anything I post about football.


You seriously amaze me. I don't know if I've ever come in contact with a bigger poser, and I lived in SoCal for 5 years so that's really saying something.

^

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 12:53 PM
It's probably a skill position with a guy like Jimmy Graham in NO but not with that Quinn guy or Tommy Graham's son.

TE is considered an offensive line position and therefore not a skilled position. However (and like I said in my origional post) because of how the TE's are used in today's game it could be considered a skilled position simply because of the money some TE's are making and how they contribute offensively to scoring and moving the ball down the field.

TheReverend
10-20-2011, 12:58 PM
TE is considered an offensive line position and therefore not a skilled position. However (and like I said in my origional post) because of how the TE's are used in today's game it could be considered a skilled position simply because of the money some TE's are making and how they contribute offensively to scoring and moving the ball down the field.

You're an idiot.

Seriously. Legit poser.

Do you smoke clove cigarettes and carry a skateboard?

Second, you need to see where the 5 Skill position players align to determine the run gap responsibilities and coverage corrections on that play.

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 12:58 PM
You're an idiot.

Seriously. Legit poser.

Do you smoke clove cigarettes and carry a skateboard?

dude, you are a fuggen moron.

TheReverend
10-20-2011, 01:00 PM
dude, you are a fuggen moron.

...Says the guy claiming the defense needs to see where the QB lines up to adjust their assignments.

Seriously, at least other terrible football posters KNOW they don't have much to offer and don't even try. This is just sad.

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 01:03 PM
...Says the guy claiming the defense needs to see where the QB lines up to adjust their assignments.

Seriously, at least other terrible football posters KNOW they don't have much to offer and don't even try. This is just sad.

wtf are you talking about? Someone asked who the skilled position players are and the skilled positon players are the QB, RB and WR. Period. Those are considered the skill positon players.

bowtown
10-20-2011, 01:30 PM
It's probably a skill position with a guy like Jimmy Graham in NO but not with that Quinn guy or Tommy Graham's son.

7-11 clerk has never been considered a skill position.

Eldorado
10-20-2011, 01:36 PM
Quarterback, runningbacks and WR's are the offensive skilled position players. If you don't know this then you have absolutely no right to question anything I post about football.

So what your saying is, that where the TE lines up has no impact on the defensive alignment. Correct?

bendog
10-20-2011, 01:39 PM
TE is considered an offensive line position and therefore not a skilled position. However (and like I said in my origional post) because of how the TE's are used in today's game it could be considered a skilled position simply because of the money some TE's are making and how they contribute offensively to scoring and moving the ball down the field.

I keep trying to cushion your fall, but to no avail. I will not bother in the future. Have a nice life.

Houshyamama
10-20-2011, 02:10 PM
I would think that any position that passes, catches or runs with the football would be considered a skill position. TE's block, but so do WR's.

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 04:24 PM
So what your saying is, that where the TE lines up has no impact on the defensive alignment. Correct?

Nope, I did not say that at all. So tell me this, who are the "5" skilled players when it's a 3 WR set?

Is the TE still considered a skill position if there is a RB too?

Hmmm....

TheReverend
10-20-2011, 04:27 PM
Nope, I did not say that at all. So tell me this, who are the "5" skilled players when it's a 3 WR set?

Is the TE still considered a skill position?

Hmmm....

Yes you retard.

The 5 perimeter players and their alignments and motion are what determines the formation and adjustments and are commonly referred to as the skill positions. They're the only 5 positions that change. 5 OL and 1 QB are static.

You know what else is static? Your single digit IQ.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2011, 04:29 PM
Can't understand you guys, you must just want to argue.

"Skill positions" is not definitionally specific ... it's a term of art, colloquial, slang. Arguing which positions qualify as such - especially arguing TE vs. QB - is a ridiculous waste of time.

55CrushEm
10-20-2011, 04:30 PM
Well, this is a gay little argument now, isnt' it?

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 04:30 PM
Yes you retard.

The 5 perimeter players and their alignments and motion are what determines the formation and adjustments and are commonly referred to as the skill positions. They're the only 5 positions that change. 5 OL and 1 QB are static.

You know what else is static? Your single digit IQ.

let's count you moron:

3 WR
1 RB
1 QB

That's the 5 skill players. Now if you want to believe everything Med says then there's actually 6 skilled players if you count the TE.

But Med says there's 5.

Ohhh Nooo!!!

The QB is a skilled position player you moron.

suck it.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2011, 04:39 PM
Well, this is a gay little argument now, isnt' it?

Homo-erotic overtones at least.

Here you go guys, knock yourselves out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_position

QB yes, TE not listed specifically, though the definition encompasses TE functions.




Wikipedia haters?

On your mark ...

Get set ....

Chris
10-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Synopsis of pages 7 to 8 (it was good before then)

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fuggen moron
poser
idiot
seriously legit (short for legitimate) poser
clove cigarette smoker (liked this one)

skateboard carrier
fuggen moron again
terrible football poster
sad person
retard
single digit IQ (someone that is not very smart)
moron again

BroncoBuff
10-20-2011, 04:46 PM
"Single digit IQ" sounds like a good insult, but in reality it's not a measurable score.

"Two-digit IQ" is a far more credible insult.

Chris
10-20-2011, 05:14 PM
"Single digit IQ" sounds like a good insult, but in reality it's not a measurable score.

"Two-digit IQ" is a far more credible insult.

http://exposureindexinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Bill-Ted-Excellent-adventure-3-sequel.jpg

Tombstone RJ
10-20-2011, 05:46 PM
Yes you retard.

The 5 perimeter players and their alignments and motion are what determines the formation and adjustments and are commonly referred to as the skill positions. They're the only 5 positions that change. 5 OL and 1 QB are static.

You know what else is static? Your single digit IQ.

Really? How do you explain this: http://twitter.com/#!/PostBroncos/statuses/11480872704282625

get bent you moron.

TheReverend
10-20-2011, 06:27 PM
Really? How do you explain this: http://twitter.com/#!/PostBroncos/statuses/11480872704282625

get bent you moron.

You've got to be ****ting me

Eldorado
10-20-2011, 08:25 PM
You've got to be ****ting me

Nope. Pretty sure he's serious.

For the cheap seats.

5 oline men. 1 qb. All of them line up in the same place every play. 5 skill position players who's alignment can change, hence the D waiting to see where they go before setting.

5+1+5=11

The Joker
10-20-2011, 09:33 PM
Feel like I got smarter reading pages 1-5... then dumber reading pages 6-8.

cmhargrove
10-20-2011, 09:46 PM
Feel like I got smarter reading pages 1-5... then dumber reading pages 6-8.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e37/Savannahbehave/Borat.gif

Lev Vyvanse
10-20-2011, 09:58 PM
What kind of a rat bastard a-hole gives a quiz and then doesn't grade it?

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 09:41 AM
Nope. Pretty sure he's serious.

For the cheap seats.

5 oline men. 1 qb. All of them line up in the same place every play. 5 skill position players who's alignment can change, hence the D waiting to see where they go before setting.

5+1+5=11

What if there is no QB in the play? Wildcat is the perfect example of this. How do you explain 3 WR sets? Is the TE on the offensive line still considered one of the 5? NO!

Pretty sure you have no answer for this.

Answer this: in a 3 WR set, who are the "5" skilled players exactly? You cannot possibly tell me the TE is one of the five when he is part of the offensive line. If you do claim that the defence is waiting to see where the TE lines up then there are 6 skill players (1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR and 1 TE), not 5.

You guys act like your soooo smart but the reality this whole "5 perimeter players" crap can encompass the QB, which is a "skilled player" and not a "static" position.

CarneAsadaFries
10-21-2011, 10:31 AM
For the sake of ending this argument, and getting this topic back on the education of football. I hope my two cents will help. The hang-up in this argument is very subtle and I hope to be able to clarify everything.

The skill positions are most commonly defined as the Quarterback, Wide Receiver and Runningback as they are most prevalent in scoring. In fact, generally, the positions that are considered most relevant in scoring plays are considered skill position players. On the defensive side, Cornerbacks and Safety's are most often considered skill positions. This of course is patently unfair and idiotic, but that is the general definition. Pre-draft commentary commonly uses the term skill position to reference, QBs, RBs, WRs, CBs, and S.

That said, Tight Ends do serve as skill position players at times, due to their increasing relevance in the passing game. That said the vast majority of tight ends play little role in this respect and primarily serve as additional blockers.

A quick google search, espn search or any other sporting site search will verify, Quarterbacks are included in skill positions. Below are 4 sources from espn, yahoo, wikipedia and a blog that all corroborate that Quarterbacks are

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/29364/a-look-at-10-careers-in-the-balance

http://www.paffl.com/2009/01/top-skill-position-2009-nfl-draft-prospects.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_position

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/492723/nfl_pro_bowl_snubs_afc_skill_position.html

So then whats the hang up?

What I believe Med and Rev are referencing to the fact is not that the skill position players need to be lined up for the defense to line up, but rather the 5 eligible receivers. For any given play there can only be 5 eligible receivers (6 if you include the RB). 2 of them line up on the line of scrimmage and 3 (4 counting the quarterback) line up behind the line of scrimmage.

It is where these 5 eligible receivers line up that determine where the defense aligns itself presnap.

Now as for playcall. It is my understanding that the defensive coordinator makes the playcall once the offense has made its substitutions in huddle. Thats why its illegal for their to be too many players in the huddle because it doesnt allow the defense to call their own play and substitution package without knowing what personnel is going to be in on offense.

Once the personnel is determined, the play is called and the front 7 of the defense lines itself up in general location while the secondary stands back waiting to locate the location of the 5 eligible receivers. Then from the moment the offense lines up, the gap assignments are determined.

That is why the no huddle messes up defenses, because there isnt enough time to determine the offensive package, bring in substitutions, and make a play call to run. If they manage to get all those in time, they then have to line up with the correct alignment for the given play all before the ball is snapped

RECAP: Offensive skill positions are commonly counted as the QB, RB and WR
TEs count as Skill positions when they are pass catchers however
The defense lines up based on the location of the 5 eligible receivers
this is merely a definition issue.
The defensive play is called once the offense has made its
package substitution known
The defense then aligns itself according to the play that was called
and the offensive alignment

Kaylore
10-21-2011, 10:38 AM
Nope. Pretty sure he's serious.

For the cheap seats.

5 oline men. 1 qb. All of them line up in the same place every play. 5 skill position players who's alignment can change, hence the D waiting to see where they go before setting.

5+1+5=11

:~ohyah!:

Yeah I'm sorry Tombstone. TE is a skill position.

Skill position does not mean "positions that have skills" because they all do. The offensive line and the QB are set every down. The other positions move around. Before you complain about the wildcat, technically on those plays the running back taking the snap is the QB and any player that usually plays QB who motions out to wide receiver or tight end or whatever becomes a WR/TE on that play. It's based on who takes the snap and how they line up, not what they play on the depth chart.

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 10:41 AM
:~ohyah!:

Yeah I'm sorry Tombstone. TE is a skill position.

Skill position does not mean "positions that have skills" because they all do. The offensive line and the QB are set every down. The other positions move around. Before you complain about the wildcat, technically on those plays the running back taking the snap is the QB and any player that usually plays QB who motions out to wide receiver or tight end or whatever becomes a WR/TE on that play. It's based on who takes the snap and how they line up, not what they play on the depth chart.

see post 191.

Houshyamama
10-21-2011, 10:44 AM
Are we arguing semantics at this point? Why?

CarneAsadaFries
10-21-2011, 10:45 AM
Are we arguing semantics at this point? Why?

Unfortunately, they are. I was really enjoying the class part and it turned into a semantics argument. I was hoping my post would help clear up the semantics.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 10:48 AM
What if there is no QB in the play? Wildcat is the perfect example of this. How do you explain 3 WR sets? Is the TE on the offensive line still considered one of the 5? NO!

Pretty sure you have no answer for this.

Answer this: in a 3 WR set, who are the "5" skilled players exactly? You cannot possibly tell me the TE is one of the five when he is part of the offensive line. If you do claim that the defence is waiting to see where the TE lines up then there are 6 skill players (1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR and 1 TE), not 5.

You guys act like your soooo smart but the reality this whole "5 perimeter players" crap can encompass the QB, which is a "skilled player" and not a "static" position.

I want you to answer this question before we move on:

So what your saying is, that where the TE lines up has no impact on the defensive alignment. Correct?

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 10:49 AM
Unfortunately, they are. I was really enjoying the class part and it turned into a semantics argument. I was hoping my post would help clear up the semantics.

Ask Tombstone to "teach" somethings then. (That will work out well :rofl:)

I'm out ^5

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 10:50 AM
I want you to answer this question before we move on:

I already answered that.

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 10:52 AM
Ask Tombstone to "teach" somethings then. (That will work out well :rofl:)

I'm out ^5

everyone knows your a pretentious assclown, I just get the burden of proving it over and over.

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 10:54 AM
egos are really getting hurt here... rev being example A.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 10:54 AM
I already answered that.

So what your saying is, that where the TE lines up has no impact on the defensive alignment. Correct?
I can't find it. Quick recap?

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 10:56 AM
egos are really getting hurt here... rev being example A.

Trust me... my ego's juuuuuuuuuuuuuust fine

Houshyamama
10-21-2011, 10:59 AM
Children, children!

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/35461.gif

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 11:00 AM
I can't find it. Quick recap?

what's the point? I'm willing to concede we are arguing semantics more or less.

What ticks me off is the way certain posters attack other posters on this board. If you want to disagree, fine. If you want to be an assclown like rev, then we end up dragging the entire thread down.

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 11:13 AM
then I'll end up dragging the entire thread down.

Fixed

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 11:28 AM
what's the point? I'm willing to concede we are arguing semantics more or less.

What ticks me off is the way certain posters attack other posters on this board. If you want to disagree, fine. If you want to be an assclown like rev, then we end up dragging the entire thread down.

I've looked through all your posts. I didn't see anything about it (maybe that's your way of saying 'no'?) I'm trying to get around the 'semantics' of what we call a tight end and get to the point of if a defense responds to the TE alignment and if so, how?

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 11:42 AM
So what your saying is, that where the TE lines up has no impact on the defensive alignment. Correct?

What I'm saying is that depending on the offensive set, the TE (or 2 TEs if it's a 2 TE set) is considered part of the offensive line--or--the TE can be considered an eligible receiver (so can a tackle for that matter). The TE is a hybrid position but is not classically known as a "skill position" however that is now arguable.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 11:45 AM
What I'm saying is that depending on the offensive set, the TE (or 2 TEs if it's a 2 TE set) is considered part of the offensive line--or--the TE can be considered an eligible receiver (so can a tackle for that matter). The TE is a hybrid position but is not classically known as a "skill position" however that is now arguable.

So how does the TE being a part of the O-line affect anything?

Houshyamama
10-21-2011, 11:45 AM
What I'm saying is that depending on the offensive set, the TE (or 2 TEs if it's a 2 TE set) is considered part of the offensive line--or--the TE can be considered an eligible receiver (so can a tackle for that matter). The TE is a hybrid position but is not classically known as a "skill position" however that is now arguable.

This is the part where we start arguing semantics. Can we move on now?

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 11:47 AM
This is the part where we start arguing semantics. Can we move on now?

I think I have artfully avoided that. One more try.

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2011, 11:49 AM
So how does the TE being a part of the O-line affect anything?

I think we are arguing in circles now because that was part of my original point. Let's move on.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 11:55 AM
I think we are arguing in circles now because that was part of my original point. Let's move on.

http://cs.stanford.edu/people/bjr/iExasperation.gif

Kaylore
10-21-2011, 12:04 PM
So does anyone know what the 5 skill positions are? ;D

55CrushEm
10-21-2011, 12:13 PM
So does anyone know what the 5 skill positions are? ;D

:spit:

Requiem
10-21-2011, 12:17 PM
http://cs.stanford.edu/people/bjr/iExasperation.gif

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/shared/characters/kids/kyles-cousin-kyle.jpg

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 12:31 PM
What's up dreamo.

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 12:43 PM
This is the part where we start arguing semantics. Can we move on now?

If only that were the case.

The TE (whether in-line blocking, y-open or a delayed route or whatever he's doing) is one of, if not THE, most important parts to a defenses alignment and adjustments.

bowtown
10-21-2011, 12:47 PM
So does anyone know what the 5 skill positions are? ;D

Definietly TE and and QB. Not sure about the rest.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 12:53 PM
If only that were the case.

The TE (whether in-line blocking, y-open or a delayed route or whatever he's doing) is one of, if not THE, most important parts to a defenses alignment and adjustments.

I just wanted him to say strong side. I would have left him alone then. As it is Im considering iggy.

brb. un-derailing this thread.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 12:55 PM
Defensive playcalls involve 3-5 basic things:

1. Defensive personnel for the play. (Base, nickel, exotic, etc.)
2. Defensive line front. (Over, Under, OverStem etc.)
3. Defensive Coverage. (cover 2 zone, Cover 2 man, cover one man etc.)

So a basic Playcall would be Base Over 2.

Base= base 4-3 personnel in Denver. In the playbook, base would be simply Over 2.

Over= running an Over front with the 4 DL. Over means the Under tackle will play on the Closed End side of the formation in a 3 technique. The NT will align in a one technique on the open end side of the formation. The closed DE will play in an 8 technique stacking head up over the TE. The open DE will be aligned in a 5 tech over the Outside Shoulder of the LT.

This also dictates the run responsibility of the DL, but the LB's responsibility will depend on the coverage. Also, the SAM LB will align away from the TE. This is different than in under Coverage where the SAM will play the TE head up. This is why a lot of teams simply play a ROLB and a Left OLB versus a SAM or WILL. That is what Coyer did in DEN and why everyone was so confused with where DJ was on every play. Sometimes he was a WILL and sometimes he was a SAM based on the fronts and coverages.

2= the cover 2 zone coverage. This is base Cover 2 zone and NOT tampa 2 Zone. It is a 2 deep 5 under zone defense. Corners are rolled up on the WR's with their backs to the sideline and forcing them to release to middle help of the five under players.

Now, what really happens in an NFL game with an Over 2 playcall? The 2 other factors that come into play are there, plus any additional adjustments to a teams individual players, formations, or tendencies are included. This is called gameplanning. It is taking a playcall and making it the most effective against your opponents strengths and weaknesses.

The other 2 factors in a playcall are:

1. Line technique-Any run or pass stunts or modifications to the individual techniques where the DL line up. Examples are Stick, Pirate or Arrow stunts.

2. Coverage emphasis-To change the basic coverage to fit the team, situation, or down and distance. Going LOOSE is now having your CB's show press presnap and then going back to play off in a read style and then having your LB's loosen up to the LOS to give more depth off the snap to protect the first down marker.

Now, we apply the Over 2 playcall to the offenses personnel and formation, down and distance, and game situation. Let's make this interesting from the original video. It's the fourth quarter and you are leading 24-22. CIN has the ball on their 40 yard line it's second and 10 with 1:31 left on the clock. DEN plays a version of Over 2 here. How does it change with all the variables in play?

So, the basic playcall is Over 2. However, the offense is in 11 personnel which is 1 RB and 1 TE with 3 WR's. The personnel dictates DEN play with a Nickel package. So, the playcall becomes Nickel Over 2. They decide to run a stunt and call a simple Stick with the closed end. So, now the playcall becomes Nickel Stick Over 2. Also, they decide to rush the open end from a 2 point stance. This is their base nickel set, so no extra information is relayed in the playcall. Also, the situation dictates that giving up a short pass inside is better than gett ing beat at deep or intermediate levels so they play off or Loose. Now, the playcall is Nickel Stick Over 2 Loose.

However, when it is called in the huddle Over is the base nickel front. So the LB would call the play Nickel Stick 2 Loose and omit the Over part to save time and simplify things.

That is the play call and it does not even take into account the formation yet to line the players up. I will do that later, I am out of time!

Part 2 please!

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 01:05 PM
"Base= base 4-3 personnel in Denver. In the playbook, base would be simply Over 2.

Over= running an Over front with the 4 DL. Over means the Under tackle will play on the Closed End side of the formation in a 3 technique. The NT will align in a one technique on the open end side of the formation. The closed DE will play in an 8 technique stacking head up over the TE. The open DE will be aligned in a 5 tech over the Outside Shoulder of the LT.

This also dictates the run responsibility of the DL, but the LB's responsibility will depend on the coverage. Also, the SAM LB will align away from the TE. This is different than in under Coverage where the SAM will play the TE head up. This is why a lot of teams simply play a ROLB and a Left OLB versus a SAM or WILL. That is what Coyer did in DEN and why everyone was so confused with where DJ was on every play. Sometimes he was a WILL and sometimes he was a SAM based on the fronts and coverages."

I'm confused. I thought the whole point of the over was that it put the SAM (in our case miller) on the line. Why would the SAM line up away from the TE (open side)?

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 01:11 PM
I'm confused. I thought the whole point of the over was that it put the SAM (in our case miller) on the line. Why would the SAM line up away from the TE (open side)?

Over not under.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 01:27 PM
Over not under.

Doesn't the SAM go to the outside shoulder of the TE?

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 01:44 PM
Doesn't the SAM go to the outside shoulder of the TE?

Nope, you're thinking of Under where the Sam is over the 9 on the TE. In the over it's flopped with the Will almost on the LOS on 9 away from the TE

Lev Vyvanse
10-21-2011, 02:49 PM
What's a OverStem?

TheReverend
10-21-2011, 03:03 PM
What's a OverStem?

Good question.

I feel like I'm hogging the answers, so I'm gonna give that football stud Tombstone RJ a chance to answer, before I go "attention whoring" with accurate answers.

Eldorado
10-21-2011, 03:05 PM
That sucks.

broncogary
10-21-2011, 04:24 PM
What's a OverStem?

The easy way to check is to look down in your pants. :curtsey:

Lev Vyvanse
10-21-2011, 11:51 PM
In a stem does the D line up in a standard alignment, then adjust to the called play?

TheReverend
10-22-2011, 07:33 AM
In a stem does the D line up in a standard alignment, then adjust to the called play?

Yup, or they can stem into something off of a pre-snap read, etc.

fontaine
10-22-2011, 08:07 AM
If only that were the case.

The TE (whether in-line blocking, y-open or a delayed route or whatever he's doing) is one of, if not THE, most important parts to a defenses alignment and adjustments.

Yes this is true because the TE can routinely perform in blocking assignment initially then release and be a pass receiver without having to qualify or pre declare as an eligible receiver (unlike OL).

This is what got Miller benched the last game I think when he failed to account to the TE releasing and it gave up a big reception. It's one of the few reasons Haggans still get time over Miller.

Cito Pelon
10-23-2011, 12:48 AM
So does anyone know what the 5 skill positions are? ;D

For message board football gurus answer is pinkie, ring, middle, index, thumb. Or the reverse if one is left-handed.

El Guapo
10-25-2011, 12:16 PM
So has the spread offense been discussed? If Tebow is to be successful isnt that what the Broncos need to run?

Mediator12
10-25-2011, 01:09 PM
What's a OverStem?

Over Stem is a front where the closed End plays in 9 versus 8 technique over the TE. It looks identical to the Over front except it changes the run fits from certain coverages, changes the closed end's contain responsibilities, and is more of a change up to the simple Over Front.

Hopefully, I will get time to finish the first playcall post from last week. I am simply swamped right now.

Finally, I should have said five eligible receivers instead of skill positions in that post. The five movable pieces are essential and crucial in getting the defense set up AFTER the offense aligns. Teams routinely use motion and shifting to get teams to get aligned and focused only to have them reset based on the playcall.

Sorry for all the confusion.

bendog
10-25-2011, 01:29 PM
mediator, did mia's defense do something different in the last four drives (one stop)? I can't tell if they just gave Tebow a simple read with a cover three or something. they did definitely get away from their blitz packages, esp with delayed blitzes. Not totally, because I know Tebow did read a blitz towards the end, and move nicely away and complete a pass to a crossing wr.

BroncoInferno
10-25-2011, 03:15 PM
I am curious about our guru's thoughts on pistol formations. Clemson has been running a pretty balanced offensive attack out of pistol formations this season, and it seems to me that this might be a nice compromise between the power running game favored by Fox and the shotgun which Tebow is clearly more comfortable with. The QB is closer to the line of scrimmage than in the shotgun (4 yards back versus 7), which allows the running back to line up behind the QB. So, it seems you would get the advantages of the normal shotgun approach while still maintaining the ability to run power running plays and play-action. That being said, this is only my surface impression. I have not really seen many pistol formations from NFL teams, so I'm sure there are some problems with it (or maybe the NFL hasn't caught on yet?). What are the positives and draws backs to running out of pistol formations? Could it potentially work for Denver with Tebow?

broncosteven
10-25-2011, 05:06 PM
I am curious about our guru's thoughts on pistol formations. Clemson has been running a pretty balanced offensive attack out of pistol formations this season, and it seems to me that this might be a nice compromise between the power running game favored by Fox and the shotgun which Tebow is clearly more comfortable with. The QB is closer to the line of scrimmage than in the shotgun (4 yards back versus 7), which allows the running back to line up behind the QB. So, it seems you would get the advantages of the normal shotgun approach while still maintaining the ability to run power running plays and play-action. That being said, this is only my surface impression. I have not really seen any pistol formations from NFL teams, so I'm sure there are some problems with it (or maybe the NFL hasn't caught on yet?). What are the positives and draws backs to running out of pistol formations? Could it potentially work for Denver with Tebow?

I like GB's version of that, surprised more teams haven't used it.

Eldorado
12-12-2011, 04:47 PM
Bump. Any more plans for this thread?

Houshyamama
09-14-2012, 01:55 PM
Bump