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crush17
09-20-2011, 11:20 AM
Great article by Ted Bartlett

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-rebuilding-fever-catch-it

Long read, well worth it.

Mr.Meanie
09-20-2011, 11:22 AM
I was thinking about posting this too. One of the best articles on the Broncos rebuild in a long while.

Best part of the article is the chart - I've always kind of seen it that way but seeing it in a logical chart makes all kinds of sense. Hopefully Tebow will eventually end up in the far left category.

maven
09-20-2011, 11:41 AM
Thanks Josh, you ****ing sucked at drafting!

Ray Finkle
09-20-2011, 11:48 AM
Thanks Josh, you ****ing sucked at drafting!

but what about the following gems?

1. McBath
2. Quinn
3. Bruton
4. Moreno
5. Olsen
6. Brandstater

corner stones!

dbfan21
09-20-2011, 11:52 AM
Wow, that was solid. He did a nice job of articulating the three million thought bubbles that were swirling around in my head and put them in a logical order. Highly recommend reading this!!

bendog
09-20-2011, 11:54 AM
Well, there were holes when McD got here, but off the top of my head I can't think of any he filled, and he created at least one very big one. Like him or not, the Frown Cannon is good enough to qb a title team, and we know the current starter is not.

gyldenlove
09-20-2011, 11:55 AM
Since I can't be bothered to make another login to random fan pages I visit once in a blue moon I will just respond here and not give 2 hoots if anyone in their right mind read it.

A number of smaller factual mistakes:

Eddie Royal is still on his rookie deal and therefore does not qualify as a veteran in the chart according to the definition set out.

Bill Belichick does not draft BPA, Belichick does what Mcdaniels tried but failed to do, he targets a number of players and assigns them a value, if he feels that there no value to be had he will trade down and if he feels he can get better than expected value he will move up. The Steelers are not known for drafting BPA either, they tend to address needs in the 1st round. Ted Thompson is notorious for drafting BPA and has done so for a long time, Newsome is also thought of us as drafting BPA over need more often than not in the 1st round.

I should be very vareful with invoking the Lions as a model franchise, I don't waiting for over 50 years to have even a small measure of success is acceptable.

One process that guarantees continuity will be disrupted is losing - no sane owner in the league (and at least 1 insane one) will put up with losing more than 10 games in consecutive seasons.


General thoughts:

There is no such thing as a rebuild in the NFL - this famed process of losing now to win later does not exist. You can accept a losing season from a coach who has taken over a clearly struggling team because nothing else can be expected, but improvement has to be noticible and quick - you simply do not have the time to sit around the bottom of the league for 3 or 4 years gathering up some high draft picks. Look at the Lombardi trophy winners, most of those teams have had 1 or 2 bad seasons to pick up some high draft talent and filled in the rest with good coaching and management.

Most young players learn nothing from being thrown to the lions and torn apart. You need a core of veterans who can coach on the field and keep continuity going, a player like Dawkins is very much part of the solution even though he may not be on the field to see the results of his work the things he does and the way he plays the game is going to benefit the young players directly. Effort, toughness and intelligence comes from veterans, not coaches.

bendog
09-20-2011, 12:04 PM
ummm, I dunno. The only franchises that have been playoff contenders and still losing franchise qb's have been GB and Pitt ... and Den before shanny got canned (not saying a change wasn't in line). Pitt didn't really have a franchise qb with spittle breath until Rapesburger, but he kept retooling his D. Balt's D may have aged out this year.

OT, I'm sure Brees will get a new contract, but I could see Sean Payton having success with a guy like Colt McCoy

bronco militia
09-20-2011, 12:07 PM
Elway will do it on the fly....fox gets two, maybe three years tops.

And I would not be shocked if Xanders gets canned after the season.

Boobs McGee
09-20-2011, 12:08 PM
excellent read, thanks for posting.

Kind of shocked to see Kuper getting the short end of the stick. I hadn't watched him closely, but if what the author says is in fact true, i HOPE Kupe can figure out a way to be a more explosive off the line type. Would love to make that line position one we didn't have to worry about down the road.

bendog
09-20-2011, 12:14 PM
Elway will do it on the fly....fox gets two, maybe three years tops.

And I would not be shocked if Xanders gets canned after the season.

I would not be surprised to see the Duke as gm in LA if they get a team.

Popps
09-20-2011, 12:15 PM
Well, there were holes when McD got here, but off the top of my head I can't think of any he filled, and he created at least one very big one. Like him or not, the Frown Cannon is good enough to qb a title team, and we know the current starter is not.

Actually, you've got no proof to support either statement. Orton hasn't had a championship caliber team around him and Cutler probably hasn't either, but stepped on his own #### in most of his big games thus far.

So, we don't "know" anything. Most fans around the league are unlikely to share your dreamy view of Jay, btw.

Kaylore
09-20-2011, 12:27 PM
This guy says DJ Williams and Chris Kuper are "placeholders."

I’m calling highly-paid guys like D.J. Williams and Chris Kuper placeholders because I don’t think that they play up to their salaries. In the case of Williams, he’ll be 31 at the end of 2013, and he’s a career underachiever. In the case of Kuper, he’s better-suited for a more movement-heavy scheme. When you're asking him to blow a guy off the line like this offense is, that’s really not his game.

also

I almost called Champ Bailey a placeholder

First, DJ is making 4.9 mil this year. He's our most versatile linebacker. It's not like he's a huge drain on resources and is worth more on the team than in a trade. His signing bonus is off the books and his contract doesn't balloon that much the way other player's do. There are a lot of areas that need more help than LB.

Kuper is making 7 mil this year, but starting next year his salary drops to around 4.5 mil, and averages that per year the last three years. He's 28 years old. Even if you only think he's average, he's our best, most experienced offensive lineman and he's entering his prime. You have him locked up for an average salary for a solid starting guard and he wants to replace him?

And on Champ he basically concedes he could play safety but all but labels him a salary drain.

All three are "not in the Broncos future."

I'm sorry, but all three could play on any team in the league.

Soured me on the rest of the article.

Popcorn Sutton
09-20-2011, 12:40 PM
My thoughts echo Kaylore ^^

CEH
09-20-2011, 12:40 PM
This guy says DJ Williams and Chris Kuper are "placeholders."



also



First, DJ is making 4.9 mil this year. He's our most versatile linebacker. It's not like he's a huge drain on resources and is worth more on the team than in a trade. His signing bonus is off the books and his contract doesn't balloon that much the way other player's do. There are a lot of areas that need more help than LB.



Soured me on the rest of the article.

I'm in the opposite camp after two weeks

I like Woodyard and he is also versatile and alot cheaper. When you compare the two I'd rather keep Wesly and allocate DJ money elsewhere. The drop off is not that substanial.

Popps
09-20-2011, 12:45 PM
I'm in the opposite camp after two weeks

I like Woodyard and he is also versatile and alot cheaper. When you compare the two I'd rather keep Wesly and allocate DJ money elsewhere. The drop off is not that substanial.

How much has the played dropped off with WW in the line-up?

DJ is one of the most overrated Broncos (by fans) I can remember in a long time. That said, I won't mind getting him back healthy just so we have more experienced bodies available.

bendog
09-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Actually, you've got no proof to support either statement. Orton hasn't had a championship caliber team around him and Cutler probably hasn't either, but stepped on his own #### in most of his big games thus far.

So, we don't "know" anything. Most fans around the league are unlikely to share your dreamy view of Jay, btw.

Rave on Mcdouchite!

hambone13
09-20-2011, 12:55 PM
Actually, you've got no proof to support either statement. Orton hasn't had a championship caliber team around him and Cutler probably hasn't either, but stepped on his own #### in most of his big games thus far.

So, we don't "know" anything. Most fans around the league are unlikely to share your dreamy view of Jay, btw.

Except for the fact that he took them to the NFC Championship game last year with a similar caliber Defense and an equally bad offense, where he arguably had a significant impact in several wins throughout the season.

fontaine
09-20-2011, 12:55 PM
This guy says DJ Williams and Chris Kuper are "placeholders."



also



First, DJ is making 4.9 mil this year. He's our most versatile linebacker. It's not like he's a huge drain on resources and is worth more on the team than in a trade. His signing bonus is off the books and his contract doesn't balloon that much the way other player's do. There are a lot of areas that need more help than LB.

Kuper is making 7 mil this year, but starting next year his salary drops to around 4.5 mil, and averages that per year the last three years. He's 28 years old. Even if you only think he's average, he's our best, most experienced offensive lineman and he's entering his prime. You have him locked up for an average salary for a solid starting guard and he wants to replace him?

And on Champ he basically concedes he could play safety but all but labels him a salary drain.

All three are "not in the Broncos future."

I'm sorry, but all three could play on any team in the league.

Soured me on the rest of the article.


Yes DJ is extremely athletic and versatile but did we really miss him with Woodyard making plenty of tackles and flowing really well to the ball, and bringing good coverage skills?

Kuper is a dominant Guard in Houston, Oakland, Washington, NYG, basically any team that favors a zone blocking system. Here, he's just an average guard.

crush17
09-20-2011, 12:56 PM
How much has the played dropped off with WW in the line-up?

DJ is one of the most overrated Broncos (by fans) I can remember in a long time. That said, I won't mind getting him back healthy just so we have more experienced bodies available.

Exactly. DJ Williams is so insanely overrated its not even funny.

fontaine
09-20-2011, 12:58 PM
Great article by Ted Bartlett

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-rebuilding-fever-catch-it

Long read, well worth it.

I enjoyed the article as well.

I completely agreed that playing Orton is a great waste of time. He's completely gone next year and I've seen absolutely nothing from Orton the first two weeks that Tebow couldn't have done himself with the additional ability to churn out first downs with his running style where Orton has instead taken sacks, fumbled the ball, or thrown it away.

broncocalijohn
09-20-2011, 01:03 PM
excellent read, thanks for posting.

Kind of shocked to see Kuper getting the short end of the stick. I hadn't watched him closely, but if what the author says is in fact true, i HOPE Kupe can figure out a way to be a more explosive off the line type. Would love to make that line position one we didn't have to worry about down the road.

I think we kind have known this since we changed our blocking scheme. He had injuries so the final thoughts were delayed. Ted is correct that he plays better in a moving-blocking scheme.
It is just sad that we have 3 cornerstones and it is so important that we cover DT next draft. If we keep the two left columns and most of the 3rd, our rebuilding should be complete by beginning of 2013. A Qb in place by then ready to take this team with a great supporting cast.

gyldenlove
09-20-2011, 01:03 PM
I'm in the opposite camp after two weeks

I like Woodyard and he is also versatile and alot cheaper. When you compare the two I'd rather keep Wesly and allocate DJ money elsewhere. The drop off is not that substanial.

DJ is much better in zone coverage than Woodyard is. Woodyard is fine in man coverage but really suffers when covering the zone, he also has no pass rush of any kind and no use on blitzes. The difference between the two is not pronounced in base formation when we are not blitzing, but in the nickel it is a noticible difference.

NFLBRONCO
09-20-2011, 01:04 PM
Only parts I disagree with

1. I only hope for high picks to bolster talent. Denver has been crappy at drafting hopefully picking high will help us do better. If we were best in the league in this area I wouldn't care how many games we win. This team have huge holes and no major skill level. Forgive me for wanting more talent across the board.

2. We are holding on the past umm do we need the past to realize what teams need to be successful in todays game. I thought watching other teams tells us.

Overall a solid article

Pseudofool
09-20-2011, 01:04 PM
This guy says DJ Williams and Chris Kuper are "placeholders."



also



First, DJ is making 4.9 mil this year. He's our most versatile linebacker. It's not like he's a huge drain on resources and is worth more on the team than in a trade. His signing bonus is off the books and his contract doesn't balloon that much the way other player's do. There are a lot of areas that need more help than LB.

Kuper is making 7 mil this year, but starting next year his salary drops to around 4.5 mil, and averages that per year the last three years. He's 28 years old. Even if you only think he's average, he's our best, most experienced offensive lineman and he's entering his prime. You have him locked up for an average salary for a solid starting guard and he wants to replace him?

And on Champ he basically concedes he could play safety but all but labels him a salary drain.

All three are "not in the Broncos future."

I'm sorry, but all three could play on any team in the league.

Soured me on the rest of the article.
If we're talking a two year rebuild, DJ and Kuper will be in their mid thirties and will need to be replaced not long after, if not then. Placeholders might be a bit harsh, but it seems hasty to dismiss the article because of an overzealous label, when his overall point about those players makes complete sense.

Popps
09-20-2011, 01:07 PM
Except for the fact that he took them to the NFC Championship game last year with a similar caliber Defense and an equally bad offense, where he arguably had a significant impact in several wins throughout the season.

Took them? Hilarious! You watch any of the games?

Jay rode an excellent defense and one of the league's most dynamic backs into the playoffs.

Hey, I've got no problem with that. I hope we can put a great system around our own QB. (Be it Orton, Tebow or whoever.)

But, Jay hasn't "taken" anyone, anywhere.

gyldenlove
09-20-2011, 01:20 PM
If we're talking a two year rebuild, DJ and Kuper will be in their mid thirties and will need to be replaced not long after, if not then. Placeholders might be a bit harsh, but it seems hasty to dismiss the article because of an overzealous label, when his overall point about those players makes complete sense.

Mid 30s?

Kuper is 28 add 2 years that makes him an even 30, and DJ recently turned 21 and will have turned 31 just before seasons start in 2 years.

You need to revise your view on who is in their mid 30s and who isn't.

Kaylore
09-20-2011, 01:38 PM
Yes DJ is extremely athletic and versatile but did we really miss him with Woodyard making plenty of tackles and flowing really well to the ball, and bringing good coverage skills?

Kuper is a dominant Guard in Houston, Oakland, Washington, NYG, basically any team that favors a zone blocking system. Here, he's just an average guard.
If we're talking a two year rebuild, DJ and Kuper will be in their mid thirties and will need to be replaced not long after, if not then. Placeholders might be a bit harsh, but it seems hasty to dismiss the article because of an overzealous label, when his overall point about those players makes complete sense.
I'm in the opposite camp after two weeks

I like Woodyard and he is also versatile and alot cheaper. When you compare the two I'd rather keep Wesly and allocate DJ money elsewhere. The drop off is not that substanial.

First, you really believe Wesley Woodyard is as good at linebacker as DJ? Woodyard is a liability in coverage. Tight Ends eat him. And before you all say "he made those clutch deflections last game" let's not forget he held the guy and didn't beat him outright.

I'm not going to argue that Kuper would thrive in a zone scheme, but did any of you consider he has a one year player on one side and a rookie on the other side of him? If Beebo and Walton develops, or are replaced with more talented players, Kuper will dominate.

And psuedo, in two years Chris Kuper will be 30 years old. He's 28. Offensive linemen tend to hang around into their mid thirties. So again, at the price of his salary you don't just get rid of good talent because he could fit into a system better somewhere else.

I mean isn't that what everyone is pissed off at McDaniels about? Jettisoning talent when it didn't match his vision?

And none of you even touched his opinion of Champ ie he isn't worth it. Even if you think you can argue the first two, that last point kills his credibility imo.

mkporter
09-20-2011, 01:39 PM
I like Ted's approach overall. I don't really agree with his take on Kuper so much, but I don't think he's all that far off the mark with DJ. Other than that, a pretty solid and well thought out take. IAOFM puts a lot of effort into producing good content. I don't always agree with them, but they are obviously putting effort and thought into their analysis. 100x better than what you get at the Post.

snowspot66
09-20-2011, 01:44 PM
Except for the fact that he took them to the NFC Championship game last year with a similar caliber Defense and an equally bad offense, where he arguably had a significant impact in several wins throughout the season.

They beat Seattle (7-9) to get to that championship game. The only reason they were even in a position to have a bye and face Seattle is because they barely squeaked by Green Bay in a game where the Packers set a franchise record for penalties. That gave them the division and a bye. If Green Bay doesn't have one of it's worst games (in terms of execution) in the history of the franchise the Bears would never have made it to the championship game. They may not have even made the playoffs.

Now I will grant luck is a part of the game but lets not go off and pretend Cutler lead a one man charge carrying that team through to the championship game.

mkporter
09-20-2011, 01:45 PM
First, you really believe Wesley Woodyard is as good at linebacker as DJ? Woodyard is a liability in coverage. Tight Ends eat him. And before you all say "he made those clutch deflections last game" let's not forget he held the guy and didn't beat him outright.


Didn't really look like holding to me. Looked like he just had his arm on the receiver's back, and I've seen Champ do that many times. The receiver didn't appear to get pulled or anything. Standard coverage technique on crossing routes from what I've seen.

broncswin
09-20-2011, 01:46 PM
I have always been waiting for DJ to show up....hasn't happened yet...never gonna happen...He is above average, but no where near the player we all say he is. I do agree however, that he has been pretty unlucky with the front line play, during his career.

bendog
09-20-2011, 01:48 PM
They beat Seattle (7-9) to get to that championship game. The only reason they were even in a position to have a bye and face Seattle is because they barely squeaked by Green Bay in a game where the Packers set a franchise record for penalties. That gave them the division and a bye. If Green Bay doesn't have one of it's worst games (in terms of execution) in the history of the franchise the Bears would never have made it to the championship game. They may not have even made the playoffs.

Now I will grant luck is a part of the game but lets not go off and pretend Cutler lead a one man charge carrying that team through to the championship game.

Chi has/had a lousy oline and below avg recievers. Forte's a good back, though. But rejoice Lambchop haters, Martz will get teh guy killed.

Boobs McGee
09-20-2011, 01:51 PM
First, you really believe Wesley Woodyard is as good at linebacker as DJ? Woodyard is a liability in coverage. Tight Ends eat him. And before you all say "he made those clutch deflections last game" let's not forget he held the guy and didn't beat him outright.

I'm not going to argue that Kuper would thrive in a zone scheme, but did any of you consider he has a one year player on one side and a rookie on the other side of him? If Beebo and Walton develops, or are replaced with more talented players, Kuper will dominate.

And psuedo, in two years Chris Kuper will be 30 years old. He's 28. Offensive linemen tend to hang around into their mid thirties. So again, at the price of his salary you don't just get rid of good talent because he could fit into a system better somewhere else.

I mean isn't that what everyone is pissed off at McDaniels about? Jettisoning talent when it didn't match his vision?

And none of you even touched his opinion of Champ ie he isn't worth it. Even if you think you can argue the first two, that last point kills his credibility imo.


Ok, so explain this to me (as someone who doesn't really know the ins and outs of line play) so I can better understand the situation.

He stated that Kuper would be better fitted to a zone scheme vs power scheme, to which you kind of agreed, is that something that technique wise would take to long to correct? Zone vs Power? Or is it more of just a physical ability thing, and he isn't strong enough? Is this something he can work on in the weight room and accomplish in the short term, or is just not big enough?

As a continuation from those questions, IF Franklin and Walton step their respective games up, is Kuper going to STILL have to get either stronger (bigger, whatever the case may be) or revamp his technique accordingly? OR is that something he can stay where he's at and benefit from the guys on either side of him getting better?

iforgotmypassword
09-20-2011, 02:03 PM
I loved the article but I'm on-board with the DJ fans here.

DJ has played all three positions in a 4-3 and played inside in a 3-4. He has had tons of different cordinators and schemes and played at an above average level throughout. He has been pretty durable for a linebacker.

When he has played WILL he has been a pro-bowl type player.

Without some off-the-feild issues for DUIJ he's damn near in the cornerstone area.

and I liked this little peice

"b. Kyle Orton is absolutely not good enough to be considered the starting QB of a team that is expected to compete at the Super Bowl level. I consider it to be pointless to even play the guy, but I accept that the Broncos' front office disagrees with me for the time being. As for whether Orton is the go-forward answer, nobody can tell me that he is. He should be in the prime of his career right now, and if you put him on the best team in the NFL (pick one), he wouldn’t win the Super Bowl. That tells you everything you need to know."

Rascal
09-20-2011, 02:09 PM
Fells, Marcus Thomas and Royal are core Vets?

I think Decker replaces Royal from here on out. Fells is the next Graham...nice but hardly a game changer, and Thomas is the 2nd-3rd best DT on one of the worst DT groups in the league.

Taco John
09-20-2011, 02:14 PM
Actually, you've got no proof to support either statement. Orton hasn't had a championship caliber team around him and Cutler probably hasn't either, but stepped on his own #### in most of his big games thus far.

So, we don't "know" anything. Most fans around the league are unlikely to share your dreamy view of Jay, btw.

Didn't Jay take virtually the same team Orton had with the same coach and get them all the way to the NFC Championship game? I understand the Cutler hate around the league - the guy is kind of a douche - but when you're talking about results, it seems worth mentioning that Cutler took the Bears to a 11-5 record and the NFC Championship game.

Rascal
09-20-2011, 02:25 PM
I do like the concept of the chart though, and as Herc mentioned in the comments it would be interesting to see how the 97-98 teams would look on that.

Rascal
09-20-2011, 02:29 PM
My problem with the argument about making champ a safety is that he is not built to be a SS, and we have our FS of the future in Moore.

And I'm not sure why people are arguing about wasting resources anyway...aren't we $20mil under the cap?

Bronx33
09-20-2011, 02:38 PM
Great article by Ted Bartlett

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-rebuilding-fever-catch-it

Long read, well worth it.


I really like that chart he made.

2KBack
09-20-2011, 02:41 PM
Didn't Jay take virtually the same team Orton had with the same coach and get them all the way to the NFC Championship game? I understand the Cutler hate around the league - the guy is kind of a douche - but when you're talking about results, it seems worth mentioning that Cutler took the Bears to a 11-5 record and the NFC Championship game.

No....He didn't. He took the same team Orton had and went 6-10

Taco John
09-20-2011, 02:42 PM
Took them? Hilarious! You watch any of the games?

Jay rode an excellent defense and one of the league's most dynamic backs into the playoffs.

Hey, I've got no problem with that. I hope we can put a great system around our own QB. (Be it Orton, Tebow or whoever.)

But, Jay hasn't "taken" anyone, anywhere.


I think everyone expects that the champion cheerleader of Josh McDaniels to be fast and loose with the facts. But facts are still facts, even if you're good at ignoring them. Cutler's December was amazing, where he did things like a 4 TD performance against the hottest team in the league to take sole possession of first place in the NFC North (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112804/2010/REG12/eagles@bears#menu=highlights), clinch the division title with a 3 TD performance against the Vikings (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010122000/2010/REG15/bears@vikings#menu=highlights&tab=recap) on the road, and tie on another 3 TDs against the high flying Jets that scored 34 points on the Bears D (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010122600/2010/REG16/jets@bears#menu=highlights&tab=recap) to secure a first round playoff bye. And that's before mentioning the 4 TDs that Cutler put up on the Seahawks in the playoffs (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011601/2010/POST19/seahawks@bears#menu=highlights&tab=analyze&analyze=boxscore) to keep them ahead when Chicago's defense decided to give up 21 points in the 4th quarter.

To say that the Bears defense led that team to the NFC Championship game and Cutler was just riding shotgun, you'd have to ignore a lot of facts and come up with a false narrative to replace those facts.

2KBack
09-20-2011, 02:46 PM
No....He didn't. He took the same team Orton had and went 6-10

oops....7-9

still not 11-5. 2010 was nowhere near the same team as 2009

jhns
09-20-2011, 02:49 PM
oops....7-9

still not 11-5. 2010 was nowhere near the same team as 2009

And the 7-9 was?

How on Earth is it possible that McDaniels still has this many people defending him that claim they are Bronco fans. The threads today are just making me shake my head in disbelief. How can you all love the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise and still claim to like this franchise?

fontaine
09-20-2011, 02:53 PM
First, you really believe Wesley Woodyard is as good at linebacker as DJ? Woodyard is a liability in coverage. Tight Ends eat him. And before you all say "he made those clutch deflections last game" let's not forget he held the guy and didn't beat him outright.

I'm not going to argue that Kuper would thrive in a zone scheme, but did any of you consider he has a one year player on one side and a rookie on the other side of him? If Beebo and Walton develops, or are replaced with more talented players, Kuper will dominate.

And psuedo, in two years Chris Kuper will be 30 years old. He's 28. Offensive linemen tend to hang around into their mid thirties. So again, at the price of his salary you don't just get rid of good talent because he could fit into a system better somewhere else.

I mean isn't that what everyone is pissed off at McDaniels about? Jettisoning talent when it didn't match his vision?

And none of you even touched his opinion of Champ ie he isn't worth it. Even if you think you can argue the first two, that last point kills his credibility imo.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should get rid of DJ/Kuper but their not cornerstone players.

Just decent starters that we should look to replace in two/three years time. Anyhow, it's a moot point because we've got far bigger problems than these guys.

maher_tyler
09-20-2011, 02:55 PM
I have always been waiting for DJ to show up....hasn't happened yet...never gonna happen...He is above average, but no where near the player we all say he is. I do agree however, that he has been pretty unlucky with the front line play, during his career.

I think had he played WLB his entire career he would have. Instead he got jerked around. When was the last time he played his natrual position?? His rookie year??

"Kyle Orton is absolutely not good enough to be considered the starting QB of a team that is expected to compete at the Super Bowl level. I consider it to be pointless to even play the guy, but I accept that the Broncos' front office disagrees with me for the time being. As for whether Orton is the go-forward answer, nobody can tell me that he is. He should be in the prime of his career right now, and if you put him on the best team in the NFL (pick one), he wouldn’t win the Super Bowl. That tells you everything you need to know."

Couldn't have said that paragraph any better myself. My thoughts exactly and it's excatly why most fans want to see Tebow! We're in re-build mode.

2KBack
09-20-2011, 02:57 PM
I'm not defending he who should not be named, I'm ****ting on Cutler.

Orton did better in Chi town with the same team as Cutler. Of course Orton never had Johnny Knox, or Earl Bennett, or Chris Williams, or Chester Taylor, or Julius Peppers. Hester was the #1 WR and Brandon Loyd was #2 in 2008, and his defense allowed 22 pts per game (while scoring 23 per game). Cutler's bears allowed 18 pts per game and scored 21.

I hate McD and I hate Cutler....it can be done

fontaine
09-20-2011, 02:57 PM
To say that the Bears defense led that team to the NFC Championship game and Cutler was just riding shotgun, you'd have to ignore a lot of facts and come up with a false narrative to replace those facts.

If there was an orangemane dictionary the above would be the listed definition under the word "Popps"

Jay3
09-20-2011, 02:58 PM
This guy says DJ Williams and Chris Kuper are "placeholders."



also



First, DJ is making 4.9 mil this year. He's our most versatile linebacker. It's not like he's a huge drain on resources and is worth more on the team than in a trade. His signing bonus is off the books and his contract doesn't balloon that much the way other player's do. There are a lot of areas that need more help than LB.

Kuper is making 7 mil this year, but starting next year his salary drops to around 4.5 mil, and averages that per year the last three years. He's 28 years old. Even if you only think he's average, he's our best, most experienced offensive lineman and he's entering his prime. You have him locked up for an average salary for a solid starting guard and he wants to replace him?

And on Champ he basically concedes he could play safety but all but labels him a salary drain.

All three are "not in the Broncos future."

I'm sorry, but all three could play on any team in the league.

Soured me on the rest of the article.

The consequences of "placeholder" status, under Ted's way of analyzing it, is that if best player available were at this position, you would take him. And on that count, I would agree. If the "Von Miller" of any of those positions came along, I would agree with taking him. Because it takes 2 or 3 years sometimes for a good pick to get to full contribution.

Archer81
09-20-2011, 02:59 PM
And the 7-9 was?

How on Earth is it possible that McDaniels still has this many people defending him that claim they are Bronco fans. The threads today are just making me shake my head in disbelief. How can you all love the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise and still claim to like this franchise?


A player being murdered kind of makes this claim utterly ridiculous.

:Broncos:

fontaine
09-20-2011, 03:01 PM
Ok, so explain this to me (as someone who doesn't really know the ins and outs of line play) so I can better understand the situation.

He stated that Kuper would be better fitted to a zone scheme vs power scheme, to which you kind of agreed, is that something that technique wise would take to long to correct? Zone vs Power? Or is it more of just a physical ability thing, and he isn't strong enough? Is this something he can work on in the weight room and accomplish in the short term, or is just not big enough?

As a continuation from those questions, IF Franklin and Walton step their respective games up, is Kuper going to STILL have to get either stronger (bigger, whatever the case may be) or revamp his technique accordingly? OR is that something he can stay where he's at and benefit from the guys on either side of him getting better?

Well regardless of scheme 90% of the guards have either good leverage, technique and leg drive to out manuever/steer DL or their just big bodied, strong guys who can maul people out of the way.

It's only the elite talents that have both.

Kuper is definitely good enough to do the first part though and I don't know if his struggles are down to constant changes in his position coach (can't help though right) or just having to cover up for the ****ty play from Walton.

Kuper shouldn't have to worry about Franklin since the coaches are routinely sending in a TE to help out in pass protection on the right side.

pricejj
09-20-2011, 03:07 PM
Actually, you've got no proof to support either statement. Orton hasn't had a championship caliber team around him and Cutler probably hasn't either, but stepped on his own #### in most of his big games thus far.

So, we don't "know" anything. Most fans around the league are unlikely to share your dreamy view of Jay, btw.

Orton was benched after his rookie year. That year (2006) the Bears went to the Superbowl.

pricejj
09-20-2011, 03:10 PM
excellent read, thanks for posting.

Kind of shocked to see Kuper getting the short end of the stick. I hadn't watched him closely, but if what the author says is in fact true, i HOPE Kupe can figure out a way to be a more explosive off the line type. Would love to make that line position one we didn't have to worry about down the road.

Kuper is 6'4" 303. At OG, he lacks the leverage and size to get push in the run game in today's NFL.

As long as Kuper has been starting, the Broncos redzone offense has sucked. Of course, it's not all his fault, but he has a lot to do with it.

Kuper is a dominant Guard in Houston, Oakland, Washington, NYG, basically any team that favors a zone blocking system. Here, he's just an average guard.

Kuper was not dominant here in Denver, when we had Shanahan, and Rick Dennison. Redzone fail.

pricejj
09-20-2011, 03:25 PM
And the 7-9 was?

How on Earth is it possible that McDaniels still has this many people defending him that claim they are Bronco fans. The threads today are just making me shake my head in disbelief. How can you all love the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise and still claim to like this franchise?

McDaniels and the Rams had three different possessions against the Giants that were 1st and goal (including 1st and goal from the 1).

FG FG FG

I long for the day I meet Mc**** in a dark alley.

Archer81
09-20-2011, 03:26 PM
Our RZ woes predate McDaniels.


:Broncos:

pricejj
09-20-2011, 03:29 PM
Our RZ woes predate McDaniels.


:Broncos:

It is precisely for the reason that Shanahan thought he could change every 5th round draft choice from North Dakota into Tom Nalen.

Fact is, you need elite talent on the OL and DL, which is usually found in rounds 1 and 2. This is why Shanahan fails as a GM, and Belicheck does not.

CEH
09-20-2011, 03:35 PM
First, you really believe Wesley Woodyard is as good at linebacker as DJ? Woodyard is a liability in coverage. Tight Ends eat him. And before you all say "he made those clutch deflections last game" let's not forget he held the guy and didn't beat him outright.

I'm not going to argue that Kuper would thrive in a zone scheme, but did any of you consider he has a one year player on one side and a rookie on the other side of him? If Beebo and Walton develops, or are replaced with more talented players, Kuper will dominate.

And psuedo, in two years Chris Kuper will be 30 years old. He's 28. Offensive linemen tend to hang around into their mid thirties. So again, at the price of his salary you don't just get rid of good talent because he could fit into a system better somewhere else.

I mean isn't that what everyone is pissed off at McDaniels about? Jettisoning talent when it didn't match his vision?

And none of you even touched his opinion of Champ ie he isn't worth it. Even if you think you can argue the first two, that last point kills his credibility imo.

Never said he was "as good" but if money is not flowing like wine at Dove Valley and I could have DJ or Wesley and another player like MeBane or Joesph at CB I'll take the latter. When was the last time DJ made an impactful turnover in the regular season? Not sure $5MM for a LBer who doesn't generate turnovers is the best way to spend the team's self imposed cap

Archer81
09-20-2011, 03:36 PM
It is precisely for the reason that Shanahan thought he could change every 5th round draft choice from North Dakota into Tom Nalen.

Fact is, you need elite talent on the OL and DL, which is usually found in rounds 1 and 2. This is why Shanahan fails as a GM, and Belicheck does not.


Broncos led the NFL in rushing from 1995 to 2008. The issue was size on the o-line, not their particular individual draft status. Shanny was very good at finding offensive talent and maximizing it. Your argument is valid for the defensive line. You need a few great to elite players in the front 7 or you will have a very hard time being successful on defense.

:Broncos:

Drek
09-20-2011, 03:42 PM
And the 7-9 was?

How on Earth is it possible that McDaniels still has this many people defending him that claim they are Bronco fans. The threads today are just making me shake my head in disbelief. How can you all love the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise and still claim to like this franchise?

The '08 and '09 Bears were nearly identical, including coaching staff, with the exception of Cutler and Orton.

The Bears lost two more games and Cutler played worse than Orton had the previous season.

What were the biggest changes the Bears made to last year's club? They signed Julius Peppers, a key part in their defense climbing from late teens/early 20's over the last couple seasons back into the top 10 across the board. Then they signed Mike Martz who promptly had Jay Cutler throw the ball over 20% less than the year before.

The Bears got better by improving their defense and taking the ball OUT of Cutler's hands. When he did throw in 2010, and still in 2011, Martz makes sure he has a check down to Matt Forte qued up, letting Forte make **** happen with the football.

Cutler is about as much a "franchise" QB as Brad Johnson. He's got a ring. Got it the same way Cutler got to an NFCC. Awesome defense (and in Cutler's case, STs) doing work.

TheReverend
09-20-2011, 03:54 PM
It is precisely for the reason that Shanahan thought he could change every 5th round draft choice from North Dakota into Tom Nalen.

Fact is, you need elite talent on the OL and DL, which is usually found in rounds 1 and 2. This is why Shanahan fails as a GM, and Belicheck does not.

4/4 of his past 4 1st round picks have been OL and DL

24champ
09-20-2011, 04:12 PM
Never said he was "as good" but if money is not flowing like wine at Dove Valley and I could have DJ or Wesley and another player like MeBane or Joesph at CB I'll take the latter. When was the last time DJ made an impactful turnover in the regular season? Not sure $5MM for a LBer who doesn't generate turnovers is the best way to spend the team's self imposed cap

How many sacks and turnovers did Woodyard generate for the Broncos while filling in for DJ?

crush17
09-20-2011, 04:16 PM
How many sacks and turnovers did Woodyard generate for the Broncos while filling in for DJ?

Its been 2 games dumbass. How many sacks and turnovers did DJ have his first two starts of last season?

Agamemnon
09-20-2011, 04:19 PM
We're in rebuilding mode? Someone needs to tell EFX...

24champ
09-20-2011, 04:22 PM
Its been 2 games dumbass. How many sacks and turnovers did DJ have his first two starts of last season?

I wasn't referring to just the first 2 starts this season, he's filled in for DJ a few times before this season and hasn't matched DJ's production. It's not even close.

fontaine
09-20-2011, 04:27 PM
Kuper was not dominant here in Denver, when we had Shanahan, and Rick Dennison. Redzone fail.

Well that's fair enough but a Guard usually isn't going to make or break your red zone play. In the ZBS scheme Kuper played very well and was dominant at times in getting to the 2nd level and clearing out LBers which was exactly his job.

JCsuperstar
09-20-2011, 05:14 PM
I still remember that time Kuper stripped Cutler of the ball when we were on the goaline against Green Bay

Mediator12
09-21-2011, 06:23 AM
My problem with the argument about making champ a safety is that he is not built to be a SS, and we have our FS of the future in Moore.

And I'm not sure why people are arguing about wasting resources anyway...aren't we $20mil under the cap?

SS is not built the way it once was. It has become a TE cover, run spill not run force, and deep cover position. It is no longer a predominantly eight man in the box position in the high % nickel packages of NFL defenses. Champ would be well suited to that. In fact, perfectly suited in the pass happy 3 WR sets of the elite NFL offenses. Plus, he is a form tackler not a hitter. That would keep him more healthy than a typical CB to safety conversion player.

jhns
09-21-2011, 06:31 AM
The '08 and '09 Bears were nearly identical, including coaching staff, with the exception of Cutler and Orton.

The Bears lost two more games and Cutler played worse than Orton had the previous season.

What were the biggest changes the Bears made to last year's club? They signed Julius Peppers, a key part in their defense climbing from late teens/early 20's over the last couple seasons back into the top 10 across the board. Then they signed Mike Martz who promptly had Jay Cutler throw the ball over 20% less than the year before.

The Bears got better by improving their defense and taking the ball OUT of Cutler's hands. When he did throw in 2010, and still in 2011, Martz makes sure he has a check down to Matt Forte qued up, letting Forte make **** happen with the football.

Cutler is about as much a "franchise" QB as Brad Johnson. He's got a ring. Got it the same way Cutler got to an NFCC. Awesome defense (and in Cutler's case, STs) doing work.

Wow, that is not at all correct. For one, the 09 Bears were missing their best defensive players and had a lot of new offensive guys. You, Sr., continue to prove you know nothing. McFans are just pathetic at this point.

Mediator12
09-21-2011, 07:23 AM
I like Ted Bartlett's thinking and writing style. He does a lot of research and a lot of solid writing on the Broncos. He makes semi-original points and backs them up with a solid argument more often than not.

However, every time he tries to explain the finer points of the game he fails miserably. Problems from that article:

1. Development is King. He obviously does not understand how NFL teams approach player development. Player development is mostly up to the player at the NFL level and it starts upstairs mentally, versus physically. Coaches do not spend a lot of time working on techniques and fundamentals at the NFL level. They introduce the unique things that their team does differently, they teach it through a mini-camp, and then they move on.

Teams do NOT spend a lot of time developing young players. That onus falls to the player individually. It is up to them to study film, talk to the vets and get tips, spend extra time after practice working techniques. That is why it is so important to draft players who get this BEFORE they enter the NFL. NFL coaches do not simplify things for mentally challenged players from college. They do not hold their hands in the film rooms and make them get it more. They do put the players in positions to succeed for the most part, but the player has to take advantage of that when it happens by reading his keys, knowing tendencies of teams and players, and not being slow to react.

I think this is key point of emphasis to Ted, but it is NOT reality.

2. Best Player Available. What is BPA? I am so tired of hearing this thrown about like its some kind of easy measurable that every team has some access to and could use but fails to do miserably. BPA used in that context is a misnomer at best. It is not distinguishable from outside the schemes of the teams drafting and it is vastly different from team to team.

Draftees are rated overall by these huge media outlets and put on a list of BPA. Nothing could be further from the truth in the evaluations used by teams. What teams do use is a process of hypothetical draft value of a player to other teams. And, once teams get to see who is picked on a given day, they go back and reassess that hypothetical value to the remaining teams.

The whole BPA/Need argument is so dichotomous on internet boards. It's either/or instead of both. Teams completely evaluate this argument totally different than the way fans talk about it. He should really try to make this argument better, and not make it seem like if they just did this things would be better. Mostly, it is still about talent evaluation at the club level. And, the lack of selecting mentally talented guys with the ability to play at the NFL level.

3. The Wide Nine Techique fronts used by PHI. He incorrectly ascribes the thoughts of others into his own problem. Yes, he does describe the technical term of where the wide 9 technique comes from. However, he misses insanely on its application and use. And, he calls running against it to defeat it asinine to boot ;D

The wide nine front creates several problems for teams:

1. In the running game, the blocking splits have to be adjusted. The OL will always play with a certain distance between the OL. This is called a split. When the DL all align so far apart, it creates a technique problem with the OL who are used to getting quick contact and getting forward. The DL all Crash to the ball side so it also changes the angles the OL have to come off the ball to block. This may seem like a small detail, but this is huge when you only play against it a few times a year at best. Those small details slow down the OL and make them less effective on a per play basis. It is a definite technique advantage and a gameplan changer to the offense in certain situations.

2. In the passing game, the DE's use a power four point stance that is usually a stop the run and hold the POA technique. Here Bartlett correctly ascribes that the DE's are aligned similarly to the old Jim Bates defense in the four point stance. However, the difference here is the pass rush technique of the DE's and the DT's. The extra distance to the OL allows the DL to generate speed and power into the first contact. The DL then can Bull rush with increased power or use a counter move to take advantage of the speed. The violence at the gap is much stronger and OL are again not used to the technique as much as a standard front. Also, the wider techiques create uncommon angles for the OL to block. This would slow them down again if the DL were to use a stunt.

3. The screen game and Draw game. Again, the distances of the front give them an advantage in reading the screen or draw. The DL get an extra step to see their reads and read their keys. The violence they use also deters draw plays as the DL will have more power into the gap and can disengage from the block to make the play.

4. This front causes havoc on an OL with its finer points. It makes screens and draws harder to execute. Therefore, it causes fits for Offensive Coordinators by making them spend time adjusting to its nuances versus gameplanning and execution. There is only so much time to prepare for a team each week and when you have to spend time making sure of the differences needed to work against this front, it takes away time that could be spent on red zone plays or third downs.

I appreciate Ted's articles, but they are not without his own biases as well. Heck, my own refutation could be filled with my own bias. However, I just hope he tries to write less and more accurate articles versus long and flawed.

bendog
09-21-2011, 08:31 AM
1. Not disagreeing with you, but your analysis of player development is exactly the opposite of drafting Tebow, and I thought that McD's little bro was supposed to work on technique. Somewhere, something went wrong. And that's not just a slam at McD. Rather even Gruden was opining that Tebow's work ethic would allow him to learn what he had not learned in HS and college. I don't recall any person with actual football knowledge saying he would revolunize the postion simply by playing it differently. Maybe McD said it, but he didn't play the kid ... ever.

2. I think part of what you are saying about BPA is that teams rate quality of players in part by what draft slots have the most depth. With the combines and pro days, a lot changed from the old days where every team had their own scouting staff. Now every team has access to the same measurables on every player. So, as a result BPA changes in that teams have to decide whether to take a guy in an early round in a position that is pretty thin with top rated guys, or do they even try to trade out of an early round to get more picks for later rounds where they more of players at a position of need. Delta Oneal v. Darrant Willams, Foxworth and Paymah.

gyldenlove
09-21-2011, 08:52 AM
1. Development is King. He obviously does not understand how NFL teams approach player development. Player development is mostly up to the player at the NFL level and it starts upstairs mentally, versus physically. Coaches do not spend a lot of time working on techniques and fundamentals at the NFL level. They introduce the unique things that their team does differently, they teach it through a mini-camp, and then they move on.

Teams do NOT spend a lot of time developing young players. That onus falls to the player individually. It is up to them to study film, talk to the vets and get tips, spend extra time after practice working techniques. That is why it is so important to draft players who get this BEFORE they enter the NFL. NFL coaches do not simplify things for mentally challenged players from college. They do not hold their hands in the film rooms and make them get it more. They do put the players in positions to succeed for the most part, but the player has to take advantage of that when it happens by reading his keys, knowing tendencies of teams and players, and not being slow to react.

I think this is key point of emphasis to Ted, but it is NOT reality.

Player development in the broader term is about several things, the least of which is technical development. Aside from a few positions (QB and DE mostly), all the players who enter the NFL either have the techniques they need or will never acquire them. The most important aspects of player development are the speed of the game and the much more advanced playbooks and systems being run.

To get used to the speed of the NFL vs the speed of college football comes down both getting used to making snap decisions but also getting used to operate with less margin for error and less space - things such as catching the ball in traffic, holding on to the football when running up the middle, keeping your legs clear from blockers, quicker read progressions. The systems and playbook part is entirely about instincts, Tom Brady is not a great QB because he has a 165 IQ, he is a great QB because he can make instinctual decisions, he will notice something and per instinct that will trigger a decision. The same is true for Champ Bailey, he knows from instinct when to turn his hips, when to face the QB, when the face the WR, when to be physical, he doesn't think about these things - which is the main difference between him and many lesser players.

2. Best Player Available. What is BPA? I am so tired of hearing this thrown about like its some kind of easy measurable that every team has some access to and could use but fails to do miserably. BPA used in that context is a misnomer at best. It is not distinguishable from outside the schemes of the teams drafting and it is vastly different from team to team.

Draftees are rated overall by these huge media outlets and put on a list of BPA. Nothing could be further from the truth in the evaluations used by teams. What teams do use is a process of hypothetical draft value of a player to other teams. And, once teams get to see who is picked on a given day, they go back and reassess that hypothetical value to the remaining teams.

The whole BPA/Need argument is so dichotomous on internet boards. It's either/or instead of both. Teams completely evaluate this argument totally different than the way fans talk about it. He should really try to make this argument better, and not make it seem like if they just did this things would be better. Mostly, it is still about talent evaluation at the club level. And, the lack of selecting mentally talented guys with the ability to play at the NFL level.
[/QUOTE]

There is of course no consensus BPA, which renders the concept somewhat meaningless and highly subjective from the outset - however there is still some truth to the notion that some teams spend more time considering talent and value than position.

In general prime positions in the NFL are QB, OT, DE and CB (some will include DT), so players at these positions come with a natural plus value compared to say a S, WR, TE or MLB. All else being equal, a player on a prime position has more value than a player at another position.

I would like to use Green Bay as a case study - since they are often considered to draft BPA early on. The way they seem to operate is that they like all others create a ranking of players, and when their pick rolls around they evaluate who is the highest ranked player on their board. Other teams would use an approach more like what Mike Shanahan did, having a short list of positions that needed to be addressed and then target a few players on those positions and take the best one available.

Some teams do what Belichick has mastered which is moving around the draft aggressively looking to get the maximum value and targeting certain players aggressively and trying to get to a position where those players have value rather than drafting the players who happen to have value when they draft.

NFLBRONCO
09-21-2011, 08:53 AM
I look at it this way if you were awarded a new NFL franchise and could take any players off our roster. This should tell many people how bad our talent is.

fontaine
09-21-2011, 08:59 AM
I look at it this way if you were awarded a new NFL franchise and could take any players off our roster. This should tell many people how bad our talent is.

I don't think it's that bad.

ST: Prater, Colquitt, Bruton
D: Von Miller, Ayers, DJ, Doom, Champ, Moore
O: Clady, D Thomas, Lloyd, Decker, Moreno, Larsen, Franklin

I think it's the case where we're so limited at DT/QB/interior OL that it tends to really hamstring what we can do.

The first challenge for the current staff is just getting these players to minimize their mistakes in terms of blown assignments and coverage along the D.

We certainly have enough talent (when healthy) to stop teams from passing all over us and enough to slow down the run with guys like Ayers/Miller setting the edge which leaves Mays/DJ/Dawkins to flow to the ball carrier as long as guys like Vickerson/Thomas/Bunkley are disciplined enough to maintain gap discipline instead of free lancing.

The offense is an entirely different matter and we're so limited along the interior of the OL and QB that it completely limits what we can do.

The good news though is that at least we've got (again when healthy) enough strength/speed to stretch defense or at least make them defend sideline to sideline.

If Decker continues to play well and D Thomas isn't entirely made of glass then we can split those guys out wide Lloyd on either side of the field and it forces the safeties to at least some of time respect the coverage instead of stacking the box.

Now to take advantage of that you need an OL to create holes for the RB to spring free and enough pass protection to give the QB time to hit those targets on 5 step drops and shotgun formations.

Rascal
09-21-2011, 09:51 AM
SS is not built the way it once was. It has become a TE cover, run spill not run force, and deep cover position. It is no longer a predominantly eight man in the box position in the high % nickel packages of NFL defenses. Champ would be well suited to that. In fact, perfectly suited in the pass happy 3 WR sets of the elite NFL offenses. Plus, he is a form tackler not a hitter. That would keep him more healthy than a typical CB to safety conversion player.

True, but I was more concerned about his durability when he would be on the inside and facing TEs/FB/OL on running plays (compared to what a CB typically sees...WRs).

Rascal
09-21-2011, 10:04 AM
I don't think it's that bad.

ST: Prater, Colquitt, Bruton
D: Von Miller, Ayers, DJ, Doom, Champ, Moore
O: Clady, D Thomas, Lloyd, Decker, Moreno, Larsen, Franklin



You cannot list Franklin, Moore, Miller, Decker, Moreno or D Thomas. They haven't done anything. Siure the potential is there, but we've said that too many times. I won't get on DJ argument.

It also isn't so much the upper tier guys either, you have to have solid middle tier guys as well. And IMO, that is where we really suck.

Our DTs and interior o-line would be 2nd string, at best, for the better teams. Game is won in the trenches, and that is the weakest point on this team.

Rascal
09-21-2011, 10:19 AM
3. The Wide Nine Techique fronts used by PHI. He incorrectly ascribes the thoughts of others into his own problem. Yes, he does describe the technical term of where the wide 9 technique comes from. However, he misses insanely on its application and use. And, he calls running against it to defeat it asinine to boot ;D

The wide nine front creates several problems for teams:

1. In the running game, the blocking splits have to be adjusted. The OL will always play with a certain distance between the OL. This is called a split. When the DL all align so far apart, it creates a technique problem with the OL who are used to getting quick contact and getting forward. The DL all Crash to the ball side so it also changes the angles the OL have to come off the ball to block. This may seem like a small detail, but this is huge when you only play against it a few times a year at best. Those small details slow down the OL and make them less effective on a per play basis. It is a definite technique advantage and a gameplan changer to the offense in certain situations.

2. In the passing game, the DE's use a power four point stance that is usually a stop the run and hold the POA technique. Here Bartlett correctly ascribes that the DE's are aligned similarly to the old Jim Bates defense in the four point stance. However, the difference here is the pass rush technique of the DE's and the DT's. The extra distance to the OL allows the DL to generate speed and power into the first contact. The DL then can Bull rush with increased power or use a counter move to take advantage of the speed. The violence at the gap is much stronger and OL are again not used to the technique as much as a standard front. Also, the wider techiques create uncommon angles for the OL to block. This would slow them down again if the DL were to use a stunt.

3. The screen game and Draw game. Again, the distances of the front give them an advantage in reading the screen or draw. The DL get an extra step to see their reads and read their keys. The violence they use also deters draw plays as the DL will have more power into the gap and can disengage from the block to make the play.

4. This front causes havoc on an OL with its finer points. It makes screens and draws harder to execute. Therefore, it causes fits for Offensive Coordinators by making them spend time adjusting to its nuances versus gameplanning and execution. There is only so much time to prepare for a team each week and when you have to spend time making sure of the differences needed to work against this front, it takes away time that could be spent on red zone plays or third downs.

I appreciate Ted's articles, but they are not without his own biases as well. Heck, my own refutation could be filled with my own bias. However, I just hope he tries to write less and more accurate articles versus long and flawed.

I haven't watched any Eagles games so I haven't seen how the use it, but when I played OT I went up against teams that ran it.

Yes it was an adjustment, but it wasn't as difficult from trying to plan differently between a 4-3, 3-4, 4-4, etc (FWIW, almost all the schemes we went against were 4-4 as we were a power running team).

When the DEs line up wide we adjusted by making our splits wider and going to a power formation. Making the splits wider makes the O-line more vulnerable to stunts/blitzes, but a good o-line should be able to deal deal with that....at least we did. The DEs could be washed out of the play by their split/angle of attack, and the OG-C-OG combo would deal with the DT and MLB. We did an incredible amount of interior running. The RB would go straight up the gut, and then jump outside once he got past the LOS to take advantage of the gap created by the DE angle of attack/wide split. We didn't break off any long runs, I think the longest was 20, but we were consistently able to get 4-7 yards per attempt. I think in the four times I faced this type of scheme they went back to a normal alignment during halftime.

Granted, I have no idea how the Eagles are doing it, but based on my experience of facing it that is what we did.

Rascal
09-21-2011, 10:24 AM
It is precisely for the reason that Shanahan thought he could change every 5th round draft choice from North Dakota into Tom Nalen.

Fact is, you need elite talent on the OL and DL, which is usually found in rounds 1 and 2. This is why Shanahan fails as a GM, and Belicheck does not.

Completely wrong.

Perhaps the best oline in the NFL right now is the Houston Texans. Do you know how many of their starting o-lineman are a 1st or 2nd round draft pick? One.

OBF1
09-21-2011, 10:37 AM
I don't think it's that bad.

ST: Prater, Colquitt, Bruton
D: Von Miller, Ayers, DJ, Doom, Champ, Moore
O: Clady, D Thomas, Lloyd, Decker, Moreno, Larsen, Franklin
I think it's the case where we're so limited at DT/QB/interior OL that it tends to really hamstring what we can do.



Moore and Franklin has 4 total games played in the NFL between them... No team would start with them. Ayers and Larsen... really?

Even making mention of Knowshon should get you banned from the Orangemane for a month.

Do not get me started on my feelings concerning DJ Williams.

bendog
09-21-2011, 10:51 AM
Moore and Franklin has 4 total games played in the NFL between them... No team would start with them. Ayers and Larsen... really?

Even making mention of Knowshon should get you banned from the Orangemane for a month.

Do not get me started on my feelings concerning DJ Williams.

And yet we may have less suck factor than the Queefs.